Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » Oakland lawmakers reject Cobo expansion plan « Previous Next »
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Smitch
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Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Too bad. From what I read the proposal was pretty well put together and would cost Oakland County nothing up front, just an extension of the liquor tax.


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070416/NEW S05/70416051/1003/NEWS01
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Chitaku
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Post Number: 1305
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i hate Oakland County!
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Rocket_city
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Username: Rocket_city

Post Number: 222
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't hate Oakland because it has an inferiority complex. Although, tomorrow the convention center in Novi will be twice the size of Cobo and the adjacent Chi Chi's will be the trendiest and most upscale restaurant in aaaaaall the laaaaaaaand! Well, at least in Downtown Novi, aka Downtown Southeast Michigan...wait...that's Troy...wait...that's Royal Oak...wait...

Tuh-raaash!
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Chow
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Username: Chow

Post Number: 365
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love the comments on the Free Press site. It is as though people think that there can be a healthy southeast Michigan without Detroit. Just move everything out of city limits and all will be well. Are they forgetting that convention-goers might enjoy the hotels, casinos, nightlife etc of downtown? Did they forget that these are key assets in landing conventions?

When will the people of this region realize that a REGION and a STATE cannot be healthy without a healthy big city.
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Rocket_city
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Post Number: 223
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's how the rest of the world operates, Chow. Imagine these people on the freep thinking the convention center should be in Northville Twp (like the one reader) and then going to convention centers around the country "IF" other convention centers were in the middle of nowhere.

Yah, let's go have a grand ole time in Henderson, NV. Vegas SUCKS!

Schaumburgh's the locale...Chicago? Yawn, what a bore. lol

The Model D article of hope:
http://www.modeldmedia.com/dev elopmentnews/dmcvb9007.aspx
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Charlottepaul
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Post Number: 799
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"When will the people of this region realize that a REGION and a STATE cannot be healthy without a healthy big city."

When those outside of Detroit realize that they have more in common with the city than the greenfields of the outer ring burbs.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 4140
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is one point about this plan that I think was not well thought out. We haven't gotten to 2015 yet (the end date for the last liquor/room tax increase for the last expansion), and here we are wanting to extend the tax to 2035 to pay for another Cobo expansion.

Well we ALL know that they'll want another expansion AGAIN of Cobo Center well before 2035. So I can see them balking on that part of the proposal.

Am I the only one that thinks this $200 million plus "freebie" to other counties is a big waste of part of that money?
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 284
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's my question: why is Cobo so important? How many times a year do you go to Cobo? Aren't there other things we could apply our already-strained resources to that would do more good for more people more often?
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 629
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 945
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus Christ...A billion dollars sure does seem like an enormous sum just to "expand" Cobo...

Put the automatic Oakland County-bashing aside for a minute...

Let's put this in perspective...Comerica Park ($300m) and Ford Field ($450m) COMBINED cost hundreds of millions of dollars LESS to build from the ground up than what Wayne county says they need in order to EXPAND Cobo...

Unless they're planning on constructing it out of platinum, I have a hard time understanding how in the world they came up with the figure of $900 and whatever million dollars...

Does anyone have any info on the actual expansion plans?

(Message edited by thejesus on April 17, 2007)
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Rocket_city
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Username: Rocket_city

Post Number: 224
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is Cobo important? Why is the Colorado Convention Center in Denver important?

I went to the American Planning Institute's national conference in Denver in 2003 after I finished my bachelor's degree in planning. The conference is held all over the country, in many locations more than once, but they always try to include all major cities. Guess where they HAVEN'T been. And this is just one of I'm sure many organizations, institutes, etc... That's why Cobo's important.

Cobo and all convention centers are more than just a gigantic roof.
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Professorscott
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Post Number: 285
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Conferences skip Detroit because people don't want to come to Detroit. The convention center isn't the problem; if you ask people elsewhere in the country what they think of Detroit, you're not going to hear "gosh, it's a nice place but what an obsolete convention center".

This is a red herring issue, in my opinion. There are many, many other problems we should be tackling before we worry about this. It's like if your house is on fire and you're worried about reupholstering the furniture.
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Rocket_city
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Post Number: 225
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's exactly my point. What makes you think putting the convention center elsewhere in the metro is going to change the name of the conference as being the "Detroit location" ie, the Detroit market? It's not. Just like "Detroit" concerts are held at the Palace of Auburn Hills. Also, even if we did collectively agree to screw city-Cobo and went with a cornfield-Cobo, what makes you think that conventions held there would be any more condusive to being a part of a community made up of single family McMansion, McDonald's and Walmarts? That doesn't sound like a place I want to have my convention. Other than playing in traffic, what else would there be to do?
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Spitty
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Post Number: 558
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Expanding Cobo is important because the North American International Auto Show brings in something like $500 million a year and Chicago, LA and NY are trying to take it from us. Or at least that's what I've been brainwashed to believe. How is it that none of you have mentioned the NAIAS when discussing Cobo?
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 948
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You guys keep arguing about whether Cobo should be expanded, when the issue here isn't whether it should be expanded, but rather about the billion-dollar cost of Wayne's proposal....
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 949
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Professor Scott:

The trend is beginning to reverse itself...

Convention hotel booking up 36% from 2005
April 17, 2007
http://www.modeldmedia.com/dev elopmentnews/dmcvb9007.aspx
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2365
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thejesus, I'd like to know why you think it's a given that Cobo needs to be expanded. Your statistic that convention hotel room bookings have increased 36% does not necessarily correlate to a shortage of space at Cobo. Nor does it illustrate how much money convention centers bleed.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 950
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'd like to know why you think it's a given that Cobo needs to be expanded"

Please read through the whole thread before posting.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 633
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Or at least that's what I've been brainwashed to believe. How is it that none of you have mentioned the NAIAS when discussing Cobo?"

I went to NY's Auto Show last week and it just doesn't compare to Detroit's at all. The general interest and hype just doesn't seem to be there at all. IMO, there is no other American city that can host the Auto Show like Detroit.

The convention center in NY was actually not even that great of a venue compared to Cobo (and it is definitely smaller yet I believe it is newer than Cobo). That said, NY is planning to double the size of it within the next 5 years or so.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 951
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, how is it that Wayne county can spend a billion $$$ to expand Cobo but they can't come up with the $350 million they say they would need to implement a light rail system up Woodward Ave?
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 3049
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if Detroit loses the big annual auto show, there still would be another auto show to replace it. So, it wouldn't be all that big of a loss. Cobo Hall is also the source of plenty of local corruption and taxpayer and exhibitor abuse in excess fees and charges being levied in a noncompetitive environment. It's time for Cobo to clean up its act first before taxpayers throw more money at it.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 17, 2007)
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 906
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"i hate Oakland County!"

Darn, you beat me to it.
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Dougw
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Post Number: 1652
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Note that the Oakland county vote does not necessarily doom the expansion plan:
quote:

The vote today was a nonbinding resolution that doesn’t put an immediate halt to Ficano’s plan, which requires the state Legislature’s approval. But it signifies that Oakland County won’t be a player in pushing the latest of many recent plans to improve and expand Cobo Hall.


Also, the actual renovation portion of the plan is only $425 million. The rest of the money goes to a payback for the other counties ($233M), an endowment fund for operations ($180M), debt elimination ($110M), plus I believe that covered walkway to the RenCen (which is a terrible idea). Overall, not a bad plan though, maybe could still use some tweaks.
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2370
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"I'd like to know why you think it's a given that Cobo needs to be expanded"

Please read through the whole thread before posting.



Yeah, I did. And nowhere do you mention why you think it's a given that Cobo needs to be expanded.
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Titancub
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Post Number: 40
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hate Oakland County? Its a rare pride point for the region (one of richest counties in US) and so it gets slammed. I put those negative sentiments in the category of amazing.
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Bearinabox
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Post Number: 167
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's getting slammed because many of its residents tend to be dismissive and condescending regarding Detroit proper and because the prevalence of that viewpoint is an obstacle to so much progress in this region, including the Cobo expansion being discussed in this thread. Being rich and "a rare pride point for the region" has, insofar as I can speak for the above posters, very little to do with it. One could argue that the "I hate Oakland County" viewpoint is just as counterproductive, but the sentiment is certainly understandable, especially given the context of this thread.
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Urbanize
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Post Number: 908
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Here's my question: why is Cobo so important? How many times a year do you go to Cobo? Aren't there other things we could apply our already-strained resources to that would do more good for more people more often?"

You brought up the main reason why Cobo Hall needs to be renovated and soon. It would look more appealing to the public in general and everyone would want to go there every chance they get.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 953
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Yeah, I did. And nowhere do you mention why you think it's a given that Cobo needs to be expanded."

exactly
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Renfirst
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Post Number: 30
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$1 billion dollars for Cobo's expansion? Come on now, that just seems absolutely ridiculous. As thejesus pointed out, they spent under a billion on building Ford Field and Comerica, COMBINED, why in hell would anyone seriously ponder spending $1 billion on Cobo???

I thought I rememberd reading in this board that the plans included a walkway of some sort connecting the Rencen with Cobo ... was I imagining that?

I think Oakland did the right thing rejecting the proposal. Why split the bill on something that in all honesty can not be justified for such a large cost... Let's not forget that there are a lot of developers out their setting their sights on the city of detroit to make $$$ The larger the bill, the bigger the payoffs to god knows how many city and county officials...

Go back to the drawing board people, we're not gonna change the image of the city with a better convention center, lol.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 4:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Call me a cynic, but if the proposal were to build a billion-dollar convention center in the OC, I'd think the vote would have been significantly different, don't you think?
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Redvetred
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The NAIAS does not generate $500 million for Detroit. If it did, take the profits and use that for Cobo expansion. That $500 million includes inflated costs of exhibits, auto company staff time, cost of vehicles, etc. all of which will get done regardless of where an auto show actually is held. There will still be an auto show regardless. So what if it's not the biggest.

Let one of the casinos build an exhibit center and let them reap the profits from the investment. Won't happen !!!
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Danny
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Post Number: 5813
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L.B. Paterson, The Mayor of White Detroit is totally upset for this Cobo Hall proposal. Maybe those OC lawmakers forsaw all the Race Cards being played from Black Detroiters.

(Message edited by danny on April 18, 2007)
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Quozl
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Post Number: 446
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thejesus:

You have to excuse Danindc, he has a severe reading comprehension problem. He DID enroll at the Sylvan Learning Center in Arlington, VA yesterday for the 12-week course so please give him time to come up to speed. He also is very preoccupied looking to complement a whole rather than filling a hole (sic).
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somebody please check my logic: if one complements a whole, doesn't that person add nothing because 100% - 100% = 0?
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 956
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's Patterson's plan for expanding Cobo...sounds like he's on-board with an expansions and recognizes that it's needed to retain the NAIAS, but that he just wants it done in a cost effective manner

Some main highlights of his plan are that he doesn't feel that a new authority created to run Cobo should have to compensate Detroit $20m for the hall, given that maintenance cost would be 5 times that amount....

He also wants to attach a 4th casino to it to make it more competitive with other cities that attach convention centers to their casinos

http://www.oakgov.com/exec/ins ight/cobo2007.html

(Message edited by thejesus on April 18, 2007)
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Quozl
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Post Number: 447
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your math is correct Livernoisyard, excellent observation.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 636
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Its a rare pride point for the region (one of richest counties in US) and so it gets slammed."

It once was among them...

Ironically, it bordered the most impoverished major city in the country too. So is that really a pride point, or does it say something else?
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Danny
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's because we folks are still playing Race Cards with each other.
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Detroitbill
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It seems that many of the people seem to lack the vision of what an expanded Cobo brings. It is not just about maintaining one event, infact thats actually a minor fact in the long run. Maintaining the auto show is a must for Detroit but the new larger center will bring in numerous other conventions also. Detroit is on the verge of now offering the complete package to various interests.. that being permanent casinos, hotels , restaurants and a hoped for state of the art facility.. That is what attracts conventions, just like Ford Field attracted the Super Bowl. To nullify the expansion is a major mistake for this whole area. To place some convention center in some remote suburban location may service the locals well but not the general metro area nor its image. Most attendees to these conventions often come up with the "the stuck out in some field in the middle of Timbuktu remark". If the proposal itself is too expensive then they need to find a way to expand in the most cost effective manner and do it.
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Danindc
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroit is on the verge of now offering the complete package to various interests.. that being permanent casinos, hotels , restaurants and a hoped for state of the art facility.. That is what attracts conventions, just like Ford Field attracted the Super Bowl.



The complete package--as long as you don't want to LIVE in Detroit. Otherwise, expect to deal with mountains of red tape, nuisance properties, sub-par public transportation, underretailed neighborhoods, high taxes, unresponsive police....

But hey, won't those conventioneers just have a blast?

(Detroiters--am I wrong in asserting any of this???)
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 637
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What other shows require as much space as the Auto Show?
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Quozl
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Post Number: 448
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

What other shows require as much space as the Auto Show?



The AVN (Adult Video News) Porn Convention in July.
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 638
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Was that an attempt at a joke?
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Urbanize
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The point is, If we have better features and more space available at Cobo, then the convention center will be noticed more so as an idea or possible choice to event coordinators beyond the Auto Show rather than a paperball in the trash can
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Quozl
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes. The AVN Convention is in Vegas.
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Titancub
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a laundry list of new big and shiny convention halls that costs hundreds of millions for local governments that have opened in the past decade to largely no usage. Its a relatively well documented argument against spending so much on Cobo because its proved as of late to not be a solution for cities.

I'm also in the camp of not understanding what shows we really are missing out on because of the size (or lack there of) of Cobo. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of having a big and vibrant Cobo but I'm skeptical as to that becoming reality - at least the vibrant part.
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Professorscott
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Titancub is right. Conventions will come to Detroit if Detroit is a nice place to visit. Conventions live or die on attendance. Talk to anyone in, I don't know, New York or San Francisco or Atlanta or Portland or Minneapolis and say, "hey, how would you like to attend your next business conference in Detroit?"

Detroit, and I mean the region, need to fix other things in order for nonautomotive conventions to even consider coming here. Otherwise all we have, whether we spend the $1 billion or not, is NAIAS and a few other things.

I have the same problem with this topic as I had when we got the casinos: we have real problems around here, and we're letting ourselves get distracted by this unimportant horsebleep. The house is on fire and we're discussing whether we should upgrade to digital cable.
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Eric
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit isn't losing on most conventions due to a lack convention space. Most conventions don't require such a massive amount of space. Look at the largest conventions in Chicago one of the most popular convention cities. Outside of #3 and #5 Cobo has the square footage to host all of the these events.

http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi -bin/article.pl?portal_id=129& page_id=1948

The condition of downtown( or it's perceived condition) and the lack of downtown hotel rooms, are the major reason why conventions don't book Detroit. But there have been big improvements on both fronts which is why hotel bookings are up 36% WITHOUT an expanded Cobo. Continued investment by the city in these areas will bring more bang for the buck in attracting conventions than expanding Cobo.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the expansion of Cobo is seen as a means to keep (or make it) competitive as many other cities are developing plans to expand their convention centers.

Edit: And by make it competitive, I mean in conjunction with all of the other improvements to the downtown environment.

(Message edited by iheartthed on April 18, 2007)
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Detroitbill
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan in Dc, I amongst other live in Detroit , unlike you,, and while some of your comments may have some merit in certain areas of the city, I for one, do not find life anywhere as tragic as you seem to want to describe. In fact living downtown as I do is quite good, very convenient for my lifestyle and never boring, nor is safety a factor ..and furthermore, if you poll many attendees to recent Detroit major attractions ( as the visitors bureau has done )in the past several years the vast majority enjoyed themselves immensely. The surveys showed the events have been very well attended nor did attendees feel they were unsafe nor was there a lack of peripheral things to do... Ofcourse certain city areas have difficult crime situations, but most conventioneers and attendees tend to stay in the core areas. The combination of developments in Detroits' downtown does indeed make it a attractive spot for many events. That has proved itself time and time again in recent years ( SuperBowl, All Star Game, Wrestlemania, Home Shows, Auto Shows, Boat Shows, World Series, Numberous big name concerts etc. ) These events do not locate to areas that cannot support them. Makes me wonder the last time DC and other large markets hosted all of these doesnt it?
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Thejesus
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know whether or not more convention space is needed to attract additional events...

But at a minimum, BOTH Wayne and Oakland County officials agree that more space is needed in order to retain the NAIAS, which seems to be what's driving the expansion idea

Also, I really like Paterson's idea for including a casino or at least a mini-casino in any Cobo expansion...not only would it make the convention center a more attractive venue, but it would also help pay for some of the build/maintenance costs...it would require a statewide referendum, but my gut feeling is that such a referendum would pass fairly easily...

I know many of you hate Patterson simply because he's Patterson, but JUST considering the idea itself, what do you honestly think it?

(Message edited by thejesus on April 18, 2007)

(Message edited by thejesus on April 18, 2007)
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ya know, I DON'T buy the argument that all convention space has to be on the same floor... just as much as I DON'T buy the argument that all casino gaming space has to be on the same floor.

What Cobo should do, is to demolish or retrofit the riverfront ballroom section of Cobo, and use it for expanded convention space. They can demo (or reuse) JLA space once a new Hockey Barn gets built elsewhere.

But besides that I think that Cobo should build a shallow balcony level on the waterfront side as well as on the existing north end of Cobo. These 2 shallow balcony could overlook the vast central spaces of the hall, and easily add another 100,000 sq. feet of display space on top of the added space obtained with the removal of the riverfront ballrooms. This could probably easily bring the total floor space to the 900,000+ sq. ft. that they want.

And what about the meeting and ballrooms vacated for display area expansion? They could convert Cobo arena into a 3 level meeting and ballroom space without tearing it down. The top floor could be a large 5,000 seat circular main ballroom, and they could punch large windows thru the walls to give ballroom patrons a 360 degree magnificent vista of downtown and the riverfront.

With existing auto show displays often having a built up 2nd level to get additional showroom space, why would it be necessary for a future Cobo expansion to have everything on a single level? I would think that with a shelf balcony around the perimeter of the existing large hall, it would provide additional eye appeal and room for more signage, than a single level flat massive hall.

I see no reason to spend 450 million dollars, when perhaps 250 million could reasonably be spent without ripping it all apart (plus the new roadway infrastructure around a demolished arena) and starting from scratch for the waterfront section of the expansion.

For those who say that the display space absolutely has to be all on one level... I say BULLSHIT! Currently the auto show is on 3 levels... the lower level (via escalators), the main floor, and the automaker built smaller upper levels.

And if it worked OK until now, I see no reason to spend an extra billion to make a few folks happy.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bump for my question above
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Here's my question: why is Cobo so important?


Jobs. Money. Tax revenue. Boring stuff like that this region clearly doesn't need.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been avoiding posting for awhile but this brought me back. Last in all of the non-sense is the fact that most of the money is from a hotel tax. How many people in SE Michigan stay in hotels in SE MIchigan on a regular basis?

If anyone here actually travels I ask that you look at your next hotel bill. Most major areas and many not so major areas have monstrous taxes on hotels. It is a means to tax outsiders to subsidize things in your backyard. Damn near everywhere does it but people like LBP have citizens believing that they will incur the cost of the hotel tax. It simply isn't so with the hotel tax. I have never heard so much ignorant rhetoric about taxing those from out of the area.

The liquor tax (I believe - can anyone confirm or deny) subsidizes part of Cobo but it also sends money to underpopulated parts of the state. If anyone should complain it should be about this.

Think about the f'in reality next time you travel somewhere and pay a total of 20-25% tax on your room. You get hit elsewhere, we should do the same. Don't believe LBPs bullshit that his residents are getting hit for the tax.

(Message edited by jt1 on April 19, 2007)
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitbill, I don't disagree with you. My point of contention is that scarce funds in Detroit shouldn't be squandered on things like convention centers--in the hopes that people show up, when the residents who already live there have more pressing needs. There's more to a city than throwing parties for out-of-towners.

Once Detroit can reliably get all of its residents to a job, then maybe we can talk about throwing away $1 billion on a party room.
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Quozl
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For Christ's sake, I find that I actually AGREE with Danindc on something. Great post Dano!
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Rjlj
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sad to say but the out of town party people are the ones with the money.
That is the whole point of a new center or we risk loosing conventions all together.
The current plan is not working(or at least the people in charge are having a poor time selling the city), so it needs to be changed.
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Sad to say but the out of town party people are the ones with the money.



I agree. Would you rather have someone come into Detroit for a few days, or to make it their home and pay taxes?

Building a convention center is no guarantee of an influx of money. Most of these buildings operate at a loss, to the point where their losses are subsidized by still more tax dollars. When Baltimore doubled the size of their center near the Inner Harbor--conveniently "clustered" with touristy attractions, like Detroit is doing in its downtown--bookings actually dropped.

Wouldn't it make more sense to make Detroit into a more attractive place to live, so that people with options (read: money) would stay or relocate, rather than flee for Chicago or the Coasts?
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroitbill, I don't disagree with you. My point of contention is that scarce funds in Detroit shouldn't be squandered on things like convention centers...


#1. If it generates jobs in a community with a 14% unemployment rate, it isn't being "squandered".

#2. If it generates tax revenue for a city and a state grappling with a large budget deficit, it isn't being "squandered".

#3. If it's financed primarily through a tax on hotel rooms then resources aren't be diverted away from other things. We can actually have both an expanded Cobo and responsive city services.
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

#1. If it generates jobs in a community with a 14% unemployment rate, it isn't being "squandered".

#2. If it generates tax revenue for a city and a state grappling with a large budget deficit, it isn't being "squandered".



Name me one city where a convention center has significantly boosted the employment and tax bases. Don't forget to subtract out capital and operating subsidies. I know you do your homework, so let's see some figures.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan - Care to address the fact that much of the money is a hotel tax generated by Cobo events. This is not a tax on residents nor will it take funding from other services.

Why are people having such issues realizing that this is not a billion dollar tax that falls on the citizens or could be diverted to other services.
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Can you guarantee that a Cobo expansion would pay for itself? If not, who pays for the overruns?

Would bonds be issued? Who issues the bonds? Who makes up the difference if the hotel tax doesn't cover the interest on the bonds?

Is the hotel tax a county tax, or a city tax? If more hotel tax revenues are collected beyond what is needed to fund Cobo, who gets the money? What is the ROI? Are there less risky methods of achieving a higher ROI?

"Much" of the money implies there is a subsidy somewhere--a subsidy the City of Detroit can ill afford to give. Lots of guesswork so far by the proponents? Lets see some numbers to justify the investment.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan, I will answer a few of your questions but I will ask you to show how you believe that there is an insignificant economic impact to negate an operating loss. Do you think that hotels, bars, restaurants, attractions, casinos, etc think that there is no economic benefit to cobo. Have you considered the number of permanent and temp jobs cobo supplies, etc.

You are looking at Cobo as an entity based strictly on its own operating P&L and that is a ridiculous way of looking at it. It that is the case we should look at every service that operates at a loss and cut it. Bring a larger viewpoint into the conversation before you see it as a single entity with no spin off benefit.

quote:

^Can you guarantee that a Cobo expansion would pay for itself? If not, who pays for the overruns?



No, to date Detroit has been eating the cost.

quote:

Is the hotel tax a county tax, or a city tax? If more hotel tax revenues are collected beyond what is needed to fund Cobo, who gets the money? What is the ROI? Are there less risky methods of achieving a higher ROI?



The hotel tax is for the tri county area and I would think that it should now include Monroe, Washtenaw and Livingston counties. If more hotel tax would be collected the operating agreements would identify where that goes. As I stated above this isn't a single entity and a basic ROI can't be applied since it produces economic benefit and jobs to other businesses.

Your last sentence ignores basic logic. If you are asking for numbers I ask that you use your head in this argument. Looking at a strict P&L for only Cobo costs and revenues is stupid.
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2379
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You are looking at Cobo as an entity based strictly on its own operating P&L and that is a ridiculous way of looking at it.



Actually, it's not ridiculous if you're justifying the investment as an attempt to increase tax revenues. Do you think Wall Street is going to buy your argument and then issue bonds to finance the project?

And if you're counting on spinoff development, why not feed tax dollars directly to those enterprises? Seems to me it would cut out the middle man, save the interest payments on the bonds, and perhaps generate some interest in the form of small business loans. Detroit has been doing everything in the name of "spinoff" development since the RenCen. Sorry, but cities don't operate on magic--numbers are a MUST.

I suggest reading the studies of Dr. Heywood Sanders. Unless, of course, you're hellbent on Detroit making the same mistakes other cities have already made dozens of times over.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/ sanders.html
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Actually, it's not ridiculous if you're justifying the investment as an attempt to increase tax revenues



Do you consider the added economic benefit to businesses that pay taxes or would the people appear out of the blue?

quote:

And if you're counting on spinoff development, why not feed tax dollars directly to those enterprises? Seems to me it would cut out the middle man, save the interest payments on the bonds, and perhaps generate some interest in the form of small business loans. Detroit has been doing everything in the name of "spinoff" development since the RenCen. Sorry, but cities don't operate on magic--numbers are a MUST.



Conventions bring in people. I don't know if you noticed it but downtown does not have enough people to be self sustaining. Part of the plan is to go to operations and ongoing costs so you may be making assumptions on bonds that are not part of the plan. Small business can't survive without customers - as you have stated time and time again there are not enough customer downtown. Seems your logic would be a little circular in throwing money at business that don't have enough customer.

Should I assume that you are saying that you and Dr. Sanders are more intelligent than all of the city leaders that have supported convention centers that run at a loss? If it is such an ignorant idea it is amazing that so many cities are willing to subsidize their convention centers. Maybe you should give them a call since the answers are so obvious to you.

Mass transit runs on a loss - I hope that you aren't a proponent of something like that.
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Do you consider the added economic benefit to businesses that pay taxes or would the people appear out of the blue?



That's something that needs to be quantified and considered. Who's done the math so far?

Certainly, it's asking too much for people on this forum to read viewpoints that may contradict whatever ideas they already have in their heads. If everyone in Detroit already has everything figured out, then what's the problem?
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

since no one responded to my question about L. Brooks Patterson, I'm going to assume that most of you think his plan is a good plan but just can't bring yourselves to admit it, which is sad since I thought the whole Casino/Convention Center idea would spark some good conversation
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

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Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't there a legal cap on the number of casinos that can exist in the state?

I'm thinking the opposition would come mainly from the casino coffers who are probably only second to GM in terms of tax revenue for the city and county.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would never pass since the other casinos would fight it and have rather large lobbies.

I don't care for LBPs opinion on it since so many of his comments and claims have been inaccurate and divisive. Remember when he had a private investor; never named. He has continued to paint the hotel tax as a tax on citizens. He has ignored the fact that much of the liquor tax does not go to Cobo.

LBP has some good ideas but he is extremely dishonest about most of what he is says about Cobo. If not dishonest he is divisive in way too much.

Read this: http://www.oakgov.com/exec/ass ets/docs/insight/cobo_corerepo rt.pdf

And see how this is essentially a paper frought with an attitude that there will never be regionalism in this region.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if there's a specific cap..there may be...

my understanding is that such a move would just require a state referendum, which I feel would probably pass...
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8864
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have 100% faith that the current casinos would have it in court for years if it passed. They aren't going to turn over their revenues that easily.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But if it could happen I would love to see it. Most importantly is that there would be no union influence.
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Renfirst
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L Brooks may be divisive, but the fact remains that if Wayne wants Oakland to split the bill, they've got to come to some agreement.

Adding a mini-casino to Cobo imo is a great idea. I can't remember though whether the decision for the MGM and Motor City's location was based on the city or the casino's. Would there be some obstacle to a casino in that area, other than the obvious litigation that would attempt to stop it from happening?

(Message edited by renfirst on April 19, 2007)
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8866
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

L Brooks may be divisive, but the fact remains that if Wayne wants Oakland to split the bill, they've got to come to some agreement.



Macomb is involved and they are not 'splitting the bill'. Those that stay at their hotels are - why is that point consistently lost.

Don't know about the casinos.

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