  Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1247 Registered: 03-2005 |
MoveOnoutofMichigan.org March 9, 2007 The Wall Street Journal, op-ed Comerica Inc. was founded in 1849 in Detroit and the Detroit Tigers play in Comerica Park, but this week the bank holding company announced it is moving its headquarters to Dallas -- where, it said, the bigger growth opportunities are. Consider it one more vote of confidence in the state the national expansion forgot, and especially in Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm's economic agenda. Re-elected last year, Ms. Granholm recently rewarded the voters by announcing some $1 billion in new fees and tax increases. The plan would charge Michigan residents higher levies for almost every activity inside the state with a moving part. She would tax trucking, shopping, smoking, hunting, fishing, drinking beer and liquor, using a cell phone and, yes, even dying.  Her plan does complete the phase-out of the state's hated "single business tax," which the Tax Foundation has called one of the most anti-growth business taxes in the nation. She should have stopped right there. Instead the Governor wants to create a new corporate income tax as well as a new 2% excise tax on upwards of 100 business services. The net effect would be to raise Michigan's overall business tax burden. She'd also impose a 5% death tax on estates valued at more than $2 million -- which is a sure way to encourage even more Michigan retirees to relocate to Florida. The Governor says all of this is essential to close an $860 million budget deficit, but the levies are part of what has become a vicious cycle for Michigan: Poor growth causes lower revenues, so raise taxes, which leads to even poorer growth, so raise taxes again. The state has lost some 362,000 jobs since 2000 and the jobless rate in December was 7.1%, second highest in the country after Katrina-ravaged Mississippi's 7.5%. The national rate is 4.6%. A new analysis by economist David Littman of the Mackinac Center reveals that the per capita income in the state fell to its lowest level in 75 years in 2005, relative to the national average. (See the recent trend in the nearby chart.) All of this is in contrast to the growth Michigan experienced in the 1990s, under former Governor John Engler, who succeeded in cutting income-tax rates and the welfare rolls. It's true that some of Michigan's current woes are due to the secular decline of the U.S. auto makers and their unionized lack of competitiveness. In essence, the U.S. auto industry has been gradually relocating to more hospitable, right-to-work states. But that's all the more reason for Michigan to improve the business climate for other industries, though this is exactly the opposite of what Ms. Granholm plans. Meanwhile, her budget would increase spending by 2.2% and pay off the teachers unions that support her with a new $178 per pupil spending increase, most of which would be absorbed by the bureaucracy and never see a classroom. This continues the state's lack of spending restraint; between 1995 and 2007 Michigan spent an aggregate $14 billion above the rate of inflation and state population growth, according to a Mackinac study. Public-employee unions are especially powerful in the state, and Ms. Granholm bows to their every wish. One result is that, according to the Governor's own Financial Advisory Panel, the state has amassed a $35 billion unfunded liability in its public-school health and retirement benefits. The state spends a whopping $1,200 per student per year on teacher and administrator benefits. Republicans lost the state House last fall, but they still control the Senate and are vowing to fight the Governor's tax increases. We hope they succeed lest the state continue to lose taxpayers and business to more favorable climes. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11397 Registered: 10-2003 |
...in 5 more years, we're gonna...ahhhh, forget it. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 349 Registered: 11-2006 |
"ahhh, forget it." dont bother posting it then, dumbass.  | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1009 Registered: 11-2003 |
Nice chart. Its meant to exaggerate, of course. 102 to 95 looks like 102 to 35. Not to say things are great. | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2005 |
East, Things suck in case you haven't noticed. How can anyone in this sate support her failed economic agenda? | ||
Granmontrules Member Username: Granmontrules Post Number: 37 Registered: 01-2007 |
The problem with the last race was that Granholm didn't excite ANYONE! However, DeVos scared people with his tooooo far right attitudes and overall creepiness. If a mainstream candidate had run against Granholm she would have been a goner. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 749 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes, we shoulda voted for Amway Dick, he would have gotten Comerica to stay, and DCX to not lay people off. He would have been able to draft all the state employees into Quixtar after work hours and they would all be rich by now and work for free during the day time. Amway Dick would then pass those savings onto Comerica and DCX by offering them zero taxes...oh wait, Jenny tried that with Electro Lux and they still left to take advantage of those $1.57 / hr mexican ladies. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 198 Registered: 11-2004 |
That editorial made me laugh. I'll make sure I move to Florida right before I die...just to avoid that estate tax. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 659 Registered: 12-2005 |
Quote: The problem with the last race was that Granholm didn't excite ANYONE! However, DeVos scared people with his tooooo far right attitudes and overall creepiness. If a mainstream candidate had run against Granholm she would have been a goner. Translation: "It's the Republican's fault - they didn't nominate a "moderate" enough candidate"! Granholm's apologists will go through the mightiest of verbal contortions to try and blame Michigan's current situation on the GOP. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 660 Registered: 12-2005 |
More evidence of the economic aberration that the once-great state of Michigan has become: Net worth of U.S. households skyrockets I predict that the nanny-staters among us will soon be clamoring for a Federal "No State Left Behind" act. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 351 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well, I'm all set to die in Florida. Just moved down here a month ago. Spent the last year and a half trying to find a decent computer job in Detroit. Found one in 4 days in Miami. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 167 Registered: 09-2006 |
Oh god, here we go with another Granholm is to to blame for everything topic. Some of you just won't give up,,,,,Incase you never noticed Michigans ill fate is a summary of decades of putting your eggs in one basket, not diversifying when one should and social pressures caused by both Republican and Democratic behavior as well as just plain human nature that doesn't worry about things when times are good and panics when they are bad. Many people have gotten themselves into big trouble by overspending, buying McMansions based on double incomes that disappear and quite frankly spending non stop never worrying about a rainy day like prior generations did. This governor (no matter what party affiliation) is going to be lucky to be able to stabilize the state if nothing else. Michigans' (and other mid-western states) image of having high labour costs and many vigilant unskilled workers along with a winter climate does not appeal to much of the countries population today. However, there is still a good concentration of skilled labour and engineering talent that exists.The state itself is actually a beautiful state abundant with numerous natural resources. It has an intricate existing infrastructure with some outstanding educational and research facilities. There in lies the key. If you analyse this, while everyone jumps on the bandwagon to move to the "promised land" sunshine states, one major lesson in life tends to play itself out. All that glitters is not gold. All of these people moving to these states that are resource poor will need water and resources that these states simply do not have..Massive immigration (both legal and illegal) will also cause major social problems in time. In time they will find themselves in trouble. If Michigan is smart they will capitalize on this. They will not sell off these resources in bulk ( just enough to pay some bills) to these places but rather become a resource rich state that can lure industry , commerce and residents with this added to a low cost of living. Its all about strategy. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 353 Registered: 08-2004 |
Detroitbill, While I agree with everything you have said, sometimes you need a job. You are looking at long term here. I think Florida is the promised land, but I have a good paying job now. The strategy you lay out will not take place for years, more likely decades. Life is too short. To reiterate, I agree with all of your points. I also do not blame one person (the governor) for this state's woes. Been a long time coming. | ||
Jiscodazz Member Username: Jiscodazz Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2007 |
I'm not the biggest Granholm fan, but do you really think it's her fault that Mexico and China manufacture things cheaper than Detroit? Washington sold out Manufacturing a long time ago. It's a race to the bottom all because we(Americans) like cheap shit. I'm afraid that lower state taxes will never be able to compete with workers making $1/hr. | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 189 Registered: 03-2005 |
Ah yes, the WSJ editorial page. Widely noted for its balance and impartiality. Ditto for the op-ed's sources, the Tax Foundation and the Mackinac Center. Please. The prospect of a DeVos administration frankly scared the pants off of me, but one small consolation, back when the race appeared a toss-up, was imagining how it would worm its way around explaining the economic woes that were sure to continue unabated. Michigan's troubles are much more complex than the simple political affiliation of who's in the governor's seat. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 168 Registered: 09-2006 |
Hey Island, I agree with you also,, when you need a job you need a job, and there is something certainly not wrong about going to Florida and finding one immediately. As for the strategy taking decades, its very possible as it took even longer to cause these problems, What I was stating is that any successful strategy takes long term planning and knowing your strengths and weaknesses. This could very possibly be something the next generation may only benefit from. You most certainly need to do what you need to do for yourself. There is no short term panacea for whats plaguing Michigan, to blame the Governor for it all is just plain wrong. She like everyone else here is trying to find the way. World situations are not within our realm of control. What people need to do is work together on this one. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 486 Registered: 04-2006 |
Take what a NY based publication says about Detroit with a grain of salt. It's interesting that personal income got the biggest bump in a decade during her first 2 years in office. Also, the last decline coincides with when the automakers started sounding the sirens... about the same time we went to Iraq and petroleum prices started edging towards the roof (i.e. SUV's became a fad of yesterday). | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 359 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks Detroitbill. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 47 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: Does that mean we should also take what a NY-based message-board poster writes with a grain of salt? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 753 Registered: 10-2003 |
The fact of the matter is that this is how the business community across the country views Michigan. People can and will debate Granholm and unions, etc. until the cows come home but at the end of the day the only thing that will get this state growing again will be to create an attractive climate to invest in. Right now, the State has failed to do this and, based on the tax proposals on the table, and the cowtowing to the unions, the state appears oblivious to the fact that companies view this as the last place to invest. If you want companies to invest make it an attractive place to do business. If you don't want to do that, don't whine when businesses continue to leave. We have a choice. To date we have chosen to say screw you to business and business has said screw you to Michigan. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 751 Registered: 08-2006 |
"We have a choice. To date we have chosen to say screw you to business and business has said screw you to Michigan." Typical! Reading this one would assume every McDonald's and Taco Bell in Michigan has unionized employees making $15 / hr. And further there is some sort of fence around Michigan's Border prohibiting businesses from entering unless they agree to have a union shop. Nothing could be further from the truth. Over the last 30 years state government has bent over backwards to please business owners. But nothing can compete with the need for greed. A non union person making $10 / hr here cannot compete with $0.35 / hr in China or $1.57 / hr in Mexico. Then these businesses that said screw you to Michigan can't figure out why the Chinese and Mexicans are not loyal customers who buy thier products. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 487 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Does that mean we should also take what a NY-based message-board poster writes with a grain of salt?" Not unless that message board poster has lived Detroit for over 2 decades... and probably knows more about it than you. | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 175 Registered: 04-2006 |
Basically what this all boils down to regarding Granholm is that after years of Republican-led corruption in the state of Michigan, there finally is a result of the disasterous clean-up effort. When the state economy was "good" what part of SE MI grew? The urban fringe. The "high growth" communities, typically townships, touted how they can't keep up with the growth, housing boom, and construction of business and the sprawling infrastructure to serve that new expansion of commerce. Point blank, this was at the EXPENSE of other geographic areas of the exact same economic system. NOW, conservative Republicans STILL want to cut funding to everything. How do you account for the economic "growth" from a few years ago and not take any accountability for it AND the forgotten economy that wasted away in the mean time? Michigan is the most lazy state in the country. We have tremendous wealth, but wealth that is vulnerable. It is for this reason that part of me hopes the sluggishness continues. Why is it that the city of Detroit now has the most building permits than any other local body in the region? When times were good, it was Macomb Twp. Are those McMansions built on cow patties really flourishing? Or is a more sustainable urban center and network of interconnected suburbs the future of our economic prosperity? It's a no brainer. Granholm is forced to clean up years of pure shit. I don't envy her and yes even hate some of the proposals. But the years of freebees are a thing of the ancient past. We still have yet to understand that though. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Over the last 30 years state government has bent over backwards to please business owners. But nothing can compete with the need for greed." ______________________________ __________________ Of course this is wrong. Other states have done a dramatically better job at "bending over backwards to please business owners". That is why businesses want to invest in those states...not ours. Those states have no problem competing. Businesses that say screw you to Michigan are doing just fine. Michigan does not offer them an attractive product...and no they don't want or need to meet your demands for the privilege of locating here. | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 86 Registered: 04-2006 |
Raising taxes is the LAST thing the state should be doing. We need to face up to the fact that, as a state, we aren't as wealthy as we used to be. Public sector spending needs to come down. If that means reducing some salaries, abrogating/modifying pension obligations,or trimming services, so be it. If we try to tax our way out of the coming shortfalls, we could easily slip into an economic "death spiral." | ||
Spacemonkey Member Username: Spacemonkey Post Number: 167 Registered: 03-2006 |
I like Michigan. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3150 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good points, Cambrian. Docmo said: "Things suck in case you haven't noticed. How can anyone in this sate support her failed economic agenda?" Things do suck, They have sucked for a while and they will continue to suck. Those of us old enough to remember 1982 will tell you that things sucked in 1982, and I thought they would never get better... Our economy is based on auto manufacturing, which has been in trouble since people stopped buying Mavericks and started buying Toyotas. And Car makers have been going out of business for decades, as any Studebaker or Packard owner will tell you. Manufacturing would have left the state even quicker if Mexico had an Interstate Freeway system, I don't see things getting better very quickly but to the question "How can people support her (granholm's) failed economic policies?", I would ask "How can people support Bush's failed war policy? Just curious. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 170 Registered: 09-2006 |
I agree with Rocket, we have to clean up all the shit and its going to hurt big time,, We will lose many people but its unfortunately a cost of doing business. Just like a business financially restructures the state of Michigan has to do the same and that causes alot of pain. To make matters worse the government has social agendas to maintain the poorer of our citizenry also. If you ignore this it will most definetly come back to bite you,,big time...The increased taxes while never popular put us in a further dilemma, how do we operate properly without the necessary income yet we are detering new investment.. As mentioned before I really feel we need to stress our resource strength as well as our trained labor force while we still have it.. Even then its going to be a crapshoot. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2007 |
quote: All of this is in contrast to the growth Michigan experienced in the 1990s, under former Governor John Engler, who succeeded in cutting income-tax rates and the welfare rolls. odd, when I look at that chart, I see a steady decline during that alleged "growth" period under Engler, a sharp spike after Granholm was elected and then a return to the 10+ year trend | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 735 Registered: 11-2003 |
From the WSJ: quote:So everything will work out just fine if the state simply hacks out a couple of BILLION from its spending. No problem. Which prisons and which universities are we going to close? quote:The Mackinac Center's own chart shows that our economy was losing ground relative to the rest of the country even during those glory years of the Engler tax cuts. Eliminating the SBT was never a hot issue for the Republicans until a Democrat was elected governor. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3153 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Mackinac CENTER? What a misleading name. It really should be called the "Mackinac Far Right"! And aren't there already plans to close "Southern Michigan University" a.k.a. Jackson Prison? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2003 |
"I like Michigan." ______________________________ _______________ Me too spacemonkey. That's why I live here. That said, when I do business, I do it via long distance from my office and on an airplane going to other states with booming economies. It would be nice if one day, this state would enact the kind of policies that make us an attractive place to invest and grow businesses again. | ||
Sknutson Member Username: Sknutson Post Number: 809 Registered: 03-2004 |
I didn't realize that Granholm had been Governor since 1994. How come the declines in the mid-90's are described as boom times in the article? Perhaps because its a typical partisan hit piece? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 191 Registered: 03-2006 |
The best way to increase revenues to the state is through GROWTH, not taxes. This is working on a national scale as receipts to the US Treasury are at record levels even though Bush CUT TAXES. Even John Kennedy knew that. You libs need to face the fact that you cannot tax your way to prosperity. The higher the taxes get, the more people will leave, revenues will be reduced. You may be able to get some short-term revenue but in the long term it is a disaster. The other problem is that why should business and the average taxpayer sacrifice when it is clear the sacred cows like teachers and government employees are not sharing in the sacrifice? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 488 Registered: 04-2006 |
Who is proposing that Michigan tax its way to prosperity? The taxes are proposed to hold that fragile system together. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1800 Registered: 06-2004 |
The best way to increase usable state revenue is to stop sending more to DC than we get back | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 757 Registered: 10-2003 |
Who is proposing that Michigan tax its way to prosperity? The taxes are proposed to hold that fragile system together ______________________________ __________________ Granholm is proposing to increase taxes. The reports that I have heard is that she believes that this will be a helpful part of her plan for growth. What fragile system are you referring to? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 758 Registered: 10-2003 |
The best way to increase usable state revenue is to stop sending more to DC than we get back ______________________________ __________________ and how do we do that? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 752 Registered: 08-2006 |
"and how do we do that?" Get out of Iraq | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2005 |
Well, we have some of the longest serving representatives in Congress. One would think that they would be able to address that issue. Might be tough, because actually advocating on behalf of your constituency would have to take a backseat to political grandstanding like resolutions demanding reparations and attempting to impeach a lame duck president. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3155 Registered: 10-2003 |
"You libs need to face the fact that you cannot tax your way to prosperity". And you conservocrites need to face the fact that you cannot force another country to be a democracy by bombing and killing its' citizens. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2005 |
quote: "and how do we do that?" "Get out of Iraq" The situation was the same before the first gulf war...let alone the present one. Whether engaged in Iraq or not, Michigan will get the short end of the stick on federal funds until we hold those who hold national office accountable. Boston manages to pull of a pork barrel orgy in the Big Dig.... Detroit gets an amusement park ride. (Message edited by higgs1634 on March 09, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 489 Registered: 04-2006 |
What fragile system are you referring to?" The one projecting an $800 million deficit: "The comments during her weekly radio address come one day after administration officials said the state faces an $800 million deficit this year alone. If the Single Business Tax, which will be eliminated at the end of the year, is not replaced, Granholm estimated Michigan could be facing a $3 billion shortfall over the next two years." http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070119/NEWS0 4/701190358/1005/NEWS | ||
Sknutson Member Username: Sknutson Post Number: 810 Registered: 03-2004 |
Speaking of the scariness of DeVos, an interesting tidbit can be seen on the two maps linked below. http://www.michigandems.com/20 06senatorialmap.html http://www.michigandems.com/20 06gubernatorialmap.html Stabenow did better than Granholm, so in general the counties are less red/more blue on the Senate map than the Governor map. Exceptions are Kent, Allegan, Barry and Ionia, all in the Grand Rapids area, DeVos' home turf. Kent, Allegan and Barry are less red on the Governor map, and Ionia is more blue. In other words, while Stabenow ran better than Granholm statewide, Granholm ran better than Stabenow in DeVos home area. | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 758 Registered: 01-2006 |
Still waiting to see the list of stuff the Legislature wants to cut from the State budget. Seems to be some kind of secret. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 489 Registered: 05-2005 |
^^Lets cut 6,000 bureaucrats right off the top. Their fat salaries and enormous golden parachute benefits. =Deficit gone. | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2005 |
Most of you seem content to wallow in the misery that is Michigan. Just keep apologizing for Jen. Really, we'll be blown away. Keep holding onto that pipe dream. Don't take the aggressive step needed in kicking her out of the office she is failing in. Don't join a grassroots operation to convince Penske he needs to come in and lead an aggressive, concerted effort to turn around the business environment of this state. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 192 Registered: 03-2006 |
<sarcasm> I had forgotten the entire cost of the Iraq war was being funded by confiscating money from Michigan Taxpayers. Once that stops, we will be in great shape! </sarcasm> | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 193 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lilpup - It is true that Michigan is a donor state in terms of the federal taxes we pay and what we get back. I suppose we should recall Levin, Stabenow, Conyers and Dingel while we are at it. At any rate, that particular statistic really has no bearing on the health of the state economy. There are 12 states that are receiving even less back from their federal taxes than we are and they are all out-performing us. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 490 Registered: 04-2006 |
Wow, did Roger Penske start a campaign or something? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3156 Registered: 10-2003 |
gentleman: as long as you keep making excuses for your war pig gangster leaders in Washington, your lectures about taxing and spending ring hollow. A fraction of the billions wasted on Iraq could have been spent for better things at home, and the costs (in lives and dollars) of the fiasco will be haunting us for years. It's kinda like hearing Rush Limbaugh tell you "you libs really need lay off the pastries!" | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 939 Registered: 12-2004 |
"And you conservocrites need to face the fact that you cannot force another country to be a democracy by bombing and killing its' citizens." Tell that to Germany and Japan. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1257 Registered: 03-2005 |
"gentleman: as long as you keep making excuses for your war pig gangster leaders in Washington, your lectures about taxing and spending ring hollow." = "If we simply extended funding to Great Society programs (invested more heavily in wealth redistribution schemes), the problems in Michigan would go away. I realize that the $12-16 trillion already expended have resulted had no effect on poverty overall, but I believe that emotive reasoning will somehow supercede the logic and factual data that has thus far proven my way of thinking to be obtuse and wrong." | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 368 Registered: 08-2004 |
Tell that to all of the dead soldiers..wait, you can't! | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3158 Registered: 10-2003 |
How did I know that you would bring that up? Germany and Japan had clearly uniformed armies that we were able to engage in battle with. The uniformed armies had identifiable leaders. My uncle, who fought in WW2, could tell who the Japanese were. What uniform does the "enemy' in Iraq wear again? What generals lead the army? Did the enemy in Iraq invade Poland or bomb Pearl Harbor? I must have missed the news that day. (time to switch to the "Abe Lincoln and the Civil War" argument again!) | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 759 Registered: 10-2003 |
Barnesfoto, We understand that you hate Bush and you like to talk about the Iraq War. But it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Do you have anything relevant to share regarding the reason companies want to do business in any other state but Michigan? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 194 Registered: 03-2006 |
Gildas - Exactly what I was thinking! Of course you can force another country to be a democracy, if you have the will and don't have traitors in your midst like we do at the present time. Japan is far better off today then they would have been had we not slaughtered 10's of thousands of their citizens. Lives were saved in the long run by bombing Japan. The proof of that is that they weren't even willing to surrender after the Hiroshima blast, it took destroying Nagasaki to break their will and make them realize they had no hope. The mentality in the empire of Japan was similar in many ways to that of radical Islam. They were more than willing to die for their cause. They talked about dying being the most honorable thing you could do. They thought we were weak because we valued human life. They changed their minds.... We can do the same thing in Iraq if we have the moral clarity and courage to do so. Ask the Kurds in Iraq what their feeling is on these matters, they love the USA and know our goals are for the greater good. We need to break the will of radical Islam and make THEM realize it is pointless for them to continue. The years of appeasing them is what brought about 9/11. If anything we need to MORE brutal than we have been. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 09, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3159 Registered: 10-2003 |
Irish: somebody brought up the subjects of leadership, of taxing and of spending. If we are going to talk about any of those issues, then the subject of the war will come up. The initial post mentions Comerica moving their headquarters out of Michigan. But as some of us noted in another post, Comerica, like many companies has been slowly divesting for years. None of you were howling in the nineties, when they closed many of their Detroit Branches. Blaming Granholm for what has been happening for what has been going on for the last 25 years is hardly relevant. And if you haven't noticed, businesses have also been leaving Ohio, Indiana, and Pennsylvania. When a fat person tells me to watch my weight, sometimes I smile and nod. Other times I have to point out the girth of the person telling me to skip dessert. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 491 Registered: 04-2006 |
And then the Japanese destroyed your economy... | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4123 Registered: 10-2003 |
I kindly disagree with the fact that the Iraq War is to blame for our woes. Even if we weren’t in Iraq do you honestly think the Republicans would give a damn about this state? Most Republicans hate unions and old-school Democrats. Put the two together and (see Michigan) and your state gets shut in the closet. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3160 Registered: 10-2003 |
but perfect, if Japan is like Iraq, again, who is the emperor? If the Iraqis are like the Japanese, what were the 3 main factions in Imperial Japan? And why are you and your leaders not leading the charge of the brigade, since you can obviously smell the victory that so few on the battlefield can? | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 636 Registered: 11-2003 |
"Most Republicans hate unions and old-school Democrats." Unfortunately so do corporations. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 196 Registered: 03-2006 |
Iheartthed - Destroyed whose economy? The US? Michigan? If anything they are one of the least crummy of our so-called trading partners. At least they build cars here and employ 100's of thousands of American workers. I will never buy a Japanese car but many people do, mostly liberals! The economy in the US is doing quite well, it is Michigan that is hurting. It isn't only the we put all our eggs in the automotive industry basket, we put them in the Big Labor basket who have created an environment that foreign automakers do not want to operate in. So, although more cars are being made and sold in the US than in anytime in history, Michigan suffers because we have socialist politicians who have no idea how to improve the business climate. Actually they do know, they just lie about it because they are beholden to the unions. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 09, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3161 Registered: 10-2003 |
What's a Japanese Car? One made in Japan, or Tennessee, or Ohio? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 197 Registered: 03-2006 |
Barnesfoto I didn't say Japan was like Iraq, I said that the radical beliefs that drove these people to fight had some similarities. Saddam was a dictator who needed to be deposed and that has been taken care of. The rebuilding of the country and setting up a new government takes time. After years of oppression, it is not strange that they have failed to set up a Jeffersonian Democracy in a few years. The rebuilding of Japan and Europe was an enormous challenge and there were huge setbacks early on. People in the US were complaining that it wasn't working and costing too much. In the long run, it worked. Even as pathetic as Europe is today, it was better than allowing fascism to flourish. In fact it would have been easier and better if we would have crushed Hitler earlier on. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 09, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3162 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Japanese were an ancient society with a unified system of religion and language. They were taught that their emperor was a god. The Iraqis are a group of tribes and ethnicities who have never been united about anything, because "Iraq" is a creation of British Colonialism, which incidentally failed there miserably. They don't even agree about what form of Islam to adhere to... Saddam was a dictator who needed to be deposed by the Iraqi people, not by us, not by our tax dollars. You are saying the same things about Iraq that were said about Vietnam. In the end, that war was a complete waste of money and lives too. Look at the place now! So much for the domino theory! However, if you really believe any of the bunk that you are spewing, I would be glad to kick in one thousand dollars to help you get out of the gloom of Michigan's economic (and meteorological) situation and into Baghdad, where there surely must be some great money to be made! Maybe you could set up a company there, and get away from the terrible business climate of Michigan! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1801 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: The economy in the US is doing well in rewarding those who are already wealthy. It is not doing well in maintaining anyone else, including those not in Michigan. That is why the richer are getting richer, widening the wealth gap even further. I think Republicans feel threatened by states like Michigan where workers will do what they can to stand up for their rights and aren't afraid to ask other workers to join them. The fallout from corporate greed will hit those companies someday. It's just a matter of workers hanging on until it does. As far as attracting companies to locate here - historically Michigan's best companies have been homegrown. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 198 Registered: 03-2006 |
From Yahoo News as of Today: Net worth of U.S. households skyrockets http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200 70308/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/fed_ho usehold_finances_1 Unemployment Rate Dips to 4.5 Percent http://apnews.myway.com/articl e/20070309/D8NORGE80.html | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 940 Registered: 12-2004 |
Barnes, A Japanese Car, is one made anywhere, but who's profits and corporate HQ are located in Japan. With knowledge like yours, its easy to see why MI is in the shape its in. And yes we can blame Granholm for many of the problems facing the state. She is in charge and leadership can be a lonely place. If she cant fix it, she should not be leading. Also, our unions have never been able to compete. The great times for the unions was when there was little to no foreign competition. That would be the early 20th century. Unions did well after WWII (as long as were on that subject) because every other industrialized nation had its manufacturing base destroyed by the war. Many people had no choice except to buy our products. As soon as Japan, Germany and others rebuilt and started producing again, they were taking market share. Unions only "win" in a no competition environment, i.e. teachers and government. Everywhere else unions are shrinking (just not fast enough). On a final note, perfectgentleman is correct in that in order to defeat radical Islam, it may become necessary to really fight this war (as a combat Vet from several tours and getting ready to leave again in 2 months, I can state, we have been holding back) and crush the culture that creates these people. A kamikaze crashing into the deck of an aircraft carrier is the same fanatic that drive a car bomb into a check point, or a plane into a trade center. And due to Barnes misplaced statement about "Abe and the Civil War" even GEN. Sherman knew he had to make "Georgia Howl" in order to break the will of the confederacy. So perhaps Barnes is correct in a round about way. If we are going to fight, lets really fight and be as ruthless, violent, and quick about it as possible. Everyone enjoy your weekend, and for those of us in Detroit, Belle Island will be looking sunny and nice this weekend, cheers!! | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2005 |
quote: "...historically Michigan's best companies have been homegrown." and those companies are going bankrupt, being swallowed by competition, or leaving the state at a fantastic rate. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 760 Registered: 10-2003 |
PerfectGentlemen, Quit raining on our excuses. LilPup, I understand your logic. When the Republicans wise up, they will invest here. What about all those powerful democrats who don't invest here though? You know, until the fallout from the corporate greed occurs. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3163 Registered: 10-2003 |
"So perhaps Barnes is correct in a round about way. If we are going to fight, lets really fight and be as ruthless, violent, and quick about it as possible." Good luck Gildas, don't hold your breath waiting for your fellow war supporters to join you. And again, as a combat vet, perhaps you could tell us how to tell the difference between the "enemy" in Iraq and "friendly civilians" in Iraq? It's just like Germany and Japan, right? Perhaps we should just nuke the place, eh? You know, destroying the village to save it. Again, a line from the (somewhat less than successful) Vietnam war. Don't our foreign competitors in the car business (except for China, a soon-to-be-competitor) have national health care plans in place? Just curious. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 754 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Unions only "win" in a no competition environment, i.e. teachers and government. Everywhere else unions are shrinking (just not fast enough). " Then the big three need to review all the profits they made in the boom years and recognize who of those customers were well paid union workers, factor that out. And then we'll see who the worthless non value added quantity really was. Do you really think that when Chevy sold 500K cars in 1969 the purchasers were all well to do small business owners, and Dr / Lawyers? Shrinking market share has everything to do with a shrinking middle class. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 199 Registered: 03-2006 |
Gildas - You are a great American and I thank you for your service. Your analysis that unions only win in a no-competition environment is absolutely correct. I am proof that you do not have to be in a union to make a good living and have great working conditions. If you have a skill that is marketable and are a dependable employee, you will be rewarded and you won't have someone telling you how to vote while confiscating a percentage of your income for the privilege. The people I know that work at Honda and Toyota actually like their jobs and want their company to succeed! They are also well-paid. I am not condemning the workers who work in union shops, they are playing the game by the rules they were given. I also know of many that were discouraged by the union mentality of protecting bad workers, strikes, and setting up rules that guarantee inefficiency. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 761 Registered: 10-2003 |
The middle class is shrinking? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 200 Registered: 03-2006 |
Irish_mafia - Great point, there are tons of left-leaning CEO's who don't invest here either. They may be liberal, but they want a return on their investment just like everyone else. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hey everyone, this is my first post on this site. Been reading for the last week and find the discussion both encouraging and sad at the same time. But I'm still looking forward to some much needed debate about our great city. I know there is great pessimism out there about the D, but HATERS beware!! Roll with us, or get rolled the hell over!!! | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 755 Registered: 08-2006 |
Lvnthed: Nice first post, Seriously!!! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1802 Registered: 06-2004 |
Irish, it just depends which means more to you - people or money I haven't mentioned either political party in this thread - do you automatically equate corporate greed with Republican? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3164 Registered: 10-2003 |
There's irony everywhere. The conservocrite "leader" is a businessman who has failed in business repeatedly, but did make some money due to his connections. There's nothing wrong with failure, it teaches us many things. As Al Neuharth once said, "If you haven't had a major failure by the time you are thirty, you probably won't have any major success either...but let's have a gander at your leader's resume. The Resume of George W Bush (the early years) A subsection of the George Bush Resume EDUCATION: * I entered Yale in 1964 with a SAT of 1206 (Verbal 566, Math 640), 200 points below Yale's average freshman in 1970. * I graduated Yale in 1968 with a 2.35 GPA * In the fall of 1970 I was rejected from admission at University of Texas Law School. * In 1973 I applied to Harvard Business School with a 2.35 GPA. 1973 admission statistics are unavailable, but for an incomplete comparison today's Harvard students average a GPA of 3.5 - no students were accepted with a GPA lower than 2.6. * I graduated Harvard Business School with an MBA and below-average grades. CRIMINAL RECORD: * Two negligent collisions in July and August 1962 in Houston, TX (p20) * Arrested and charged with disorderly conduct in New Haven, CT in December 1966 (p20) for stealing a christmas tree while drunk * Convicted of drunk driving on September 4, 1976 in Kennebunkport, Maine. MILITARY EXPERIENCE: As a strong supporter of the Vietnam War I did everything in my power to avoid military service, both foreign and domestic: * In February 1968 I applied to the Texas Air National Guard after scoring the bare minimum of 25th Percentile (p25) for the Officer's Pilot Aptitude Test. With low scores, no other qualifications listed, and a long list of applicants ahead of me nobody is sure how I got into the guard. Ben Barnes offers one explanation, swearing under oath that he called Brig Gen. Jim Rose at the request of my father's friend Sidney Adger, allowing me a privilege I did not otherwise deserve. * I left the 111th "Champagne Unit" on May 24 1972, requesting a transfer to the Alabama 9921st Air Reserve, a postal unit with no airplanes and no pilots. I did not appear for any service in the 9921st. * On July 21, 1972, my transfer request to the 9921st was rejected and I was commanded to return back to the 111st in Maxwell, TX. I remained away and did not return to Texas. I refused to submit to a physical exam in August, four months after the Air Force made drug tests mandatory for pilots on April 21, 1972. I was suspended and grounded as a disciplinary measure, ensuring I would never fly again. * On September 5, 1972, I once again requested a transfer to Alabama, and once again I failed to appear (this time at the 187th). Neither my commanding officer nor Mavanee Bear, my girlfriend at the time claims to have ever seen me in uniform, though I did get a free dental checkup. * I never met the requirements for honorable discharge, earning only 38 documented points out of a required 50 in 1973-74. I also completed only 36 of 43 required inactive-duty training periods in 1972-73, and 12 of 43 required in 1973-74. Fortunately I "worked something out" and was issued an honorable discharge I did not earn. * My participation in the National Guard was so low that even by the end of the Vietnam Conflict I had flown only 336 hours, not meeting the minimum standards (500 hours flight experience) for combat duty. Even if I had been called to active duty I would have been unqualified to serve by military regulations. PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE: * I founded Arbusto Energy in 1979 with money borrowed from family friends including James R Bath, representing Salem Bin Laden. Over the next five years I accepted at least $4.7 million dollars from my father's friends including George Ohrstrom and Russell Reynolds, Jr., returning $1.5 million to investors and taking on $3 million in debt. My company was rescued by a buyout from Spectrum 7 by my successful Yale classmates Mercer Reynolds and William DeWitt Jr. in 1984. * After the failure of Arbusto I was awarded a position as Chairman and CEO of Spectrum 7. My participation resulted in more failure as the company was driven to the brink of bankruptcy. I was rescued by a buyout from my father's friends Phil Kendrick and Stuart Watson at Harken Oil and Gas in 1985. * Impressed not by my abilities but by my connections to important people I was rewarded for my failure at Spectrum 7 with a seat on the Board of Directors at Harken Oil and Gas. Harken was a miserable failure during the time I spent there - it posted $23.2 billion in losses. I was investigated by the SEC for selling my shares one week before the loss announcement, and the resulting investigation explicitly did not exonerate me. * I was the owner of the Texas Rangers, made possible only by my father's friends William DeWitt and Richard E. Rainwater. My participation resulted in incredible success for myself and terrible misfortune for my neighbors. I used eminent domain to take taxpayers' land, paid for it with $4.9 million taxpayer dollars, and then spent $191 million more taxpayer dollars to build myself a stadium. I left the city of Arlington, TX with a $7.5 million debt that I still refuse to pay, even after I sold the Rangers to Thomas Hicks for $250 million (a 2500% profit). more:http://www.monkeydyne.com/bush resume/early.html | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 38 Registered: 02-2007 |
I recall a picture of a depression-era poster printed in grade-school text book. "Buy a car and you give someone one month's wages" it read. I don't know if that was or is now true, but it speaks to buying products from manufacturers headquartered overseas. Buy an Asian car built here, and the blue-collar wages stay here. But buy a US car made outside of the US and the wages for engineering, marketing, and corporate profits stay here. Buy an imported foreign-HQ'd car and you're stiffing your neighbor. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 762 Registered: 10-2003 |
LilPup, Memory is short. Your quote was this: "I think Republicans feel threatened by states like Michigan where workers will do what they can to stand up for their rights and aren't afraid to ask other workers to join them." In regards to your other comment: "it just depends which means more to you - people or money" Putting people in the unemployment line is a rather cruel way to treat people. The policies of our state have been doing that for some time now while the rest of the country is booming. It really comes down to what you care about more, utopian socialistic views or people. I vote for people. Let's build the economy up so that more people in our state can make more money. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3165 Registered: 10-2003 |
great. When you guys have a leader who is a self-made businessman, rather than a guy who failed repeatedly at business but made money from his family connections, you can lecture us about business smarts, ok? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 756 Registered: 08-2006 |
Way to go! Barnes shut down the cons!!! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1803 Registered: 06-2004 |
Mea culpa, irish, I did type the word once. But most of the state hatin' recently directed at Michigan seems to be coming from that party, even though they still control the state Congress. Perhaps it's fallout from the recent change in DC? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2724 Registered: 10-2004 |
Barnes, you're an idiot if you really believe that the private sector takes its orders and runs their businesses and such from political leaders and legislators. There never would have been an original Detroit if those early businessmen had your foolish socialist mindset. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 201 Registered: 03-2006 |
Barnesfoto, You are obviously obsessed with hatred for Bush. Anyone can write a resume on any politician and make them look like an idiot. I don't glorify politicians, I care about this country and I care about ideas. Liberalism has been at work in Detroit for decades and here is what we have so far: 70% of children born out of wedlock A crime rate 3 times the national average Over 50% of the people in Detroit are functionally illiterate Unemployment rate of over 14% Infrastructure is in shambles Declining population Poor Schools Do you want me to continue? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1804 Registered: 06-2004 |
So, PG, how would you fix Detroit? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 205 Registered: 10-2003 |
Everything is Granholm's fault! Granholm taught the Japanese how to make better cars! Granholm taught the Chinese how to manufacture cheaper than us! Granholm wasted mass transit money on the People Mover! Granholm decided our entire focus should be the auto industry! Granholm gave outrageously expensive pensions to auto workers when times were good that they can't afford to pay now! Granholm personally selected every crooked member on the CoD council! ITS ALL GRANHOLMS FAULT! | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 202 Registered: 03-2006 |
Nobody is saying it is all Granholm's fault, but we do need to face the truth about why we are in the situation we are in and then plan accordingly. This is something she refuses to do for political reasons. Job losses happen everywhere, but other states seem to be able to attract new investment to offset the losses, we do not. To enable us to attract new business to this state, we need to reform our labor laws, reduce barriers due to regulation, cut taxes, stop allowing frivolous litigation to drive business out of our state and take a hard line on crime. One of the most damaging aspects of inner city life is young people having children they don't want and have no ability to care for. This is almost a guarantee that the mother and the child will live in poverty, end up on government aid, drop out of school. The child will probably end up in the criminal justice system at some point. You all bitch about Devos because of his "preaching moral values." Well the free love 60's crap has gotten us in a terrible mess as we now have record numbers of kids having irresponsible sex that is costing us millions later on. Does Granholm have the balls to take on the unions, the trial lawyers, the government bureaucrats, the teachers and the race baiters who constantly claim that the failure of the inner cities is due to racism? No. These people are all part of her political base. This is not like the great depression where normal, hard-working people were hurting because they lacked opportunity and services. Many of the people living in poverty today are there because of the poor decisions THEY MADE. Subsidizing this failure with more social programs only makes matters worse! (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 09, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3166 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Anyone can write a resume on any politician and make them look like an idiot". If you go to the link, you can find out who wrote that resume; and he's no liberal. Do you dispute any of the data on Bush's Business record? Feel free to disprove it. GWB is the leader of the party that best represents your ideas, yes or no? Or are y'all suddenly guys who voted Libertarian? Moderate Centrists? Greens? Natural Law Party? LaRouchies? " "Liberalism has been at work in Detroit for decades" It has also been at work in New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago for decades... NYC, Los Angeles and Chicago are as bad off as Detroit, right? Or have those cities suddenly become bastions of conservatism? (yeah, I know that Bloomberg is a moderate republican, but before you try to portray NYC as a conservative city, you may want to check the percentage of NYC residents who voted for Bush) "I don't glorify politicians, I care about this country and I care about ideas". Me too. But again, when fat guys start preaching about good nutrition, I sometimes have to point out the irony. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 763 Registered: 10-2003 |
Barnes...man focus on the moment. The moment of the discussion is on making Michigan an attractive place to do business..not on GWB or punchkies! | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 203 Registered: 03-2006 |
I don't give a damn who wrote the resume, anyone could write a resume on Clinton, Gore, Kerry, you name it and make them look like an ass. Bush is not even that conservative, he is not an idealogue, that is a myth the press has created. There are plenty of RINO's in the party right now and people like me are not happy about it. But any time I think I am sick of the GOP, all I have to do is look at the Dems and I realize they are 100 times worse. New York city is a bastion of capitalism, is was also in major trouble until Gulianni turned it around. He is a fake conservative and he did a better job than his predecessors. Los Angeles is being annexed by Mexico, anyone out there will tell you it is going to hell. Chicago is hardly a far-left city in the way it operates. It has successfully diversified its economy and has managed to keep the middle class from leaving the city. A Mayor Daly or Gulianni would never be elected here because it is mandatory that we have a black mayor in Detroit, even if he is an idiot like Kilpatrick. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3167 Registered: 10-2003 |
again: When you guys have a leader who is a self-made businessman, rather than a guy who failed repeatedly at business but made money from his family connections, you can lecture us about business smarts, ok? And then, maybe we'll listen. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 764 Registered: 10-2003 |
Barnes, What leader are you talking about? We are talking about the state of Michigan. The fact that the business community in this country won't invest here and those businesses that are here are leaving. We are talking about why that is and what can and should be done to fix it. If you don't want to address that, could you please go to a different thread..perhaps you could call it "I hate GWB, conservatives, donuts, fat people and I won't listen to you because I don't have to" ... but you may want to interject something about Detroit or Michigan to make it relevant. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 204 Registered: 03-2006 |
Barnesfoto - No, people like you will never listen. There are plenty of self-made businessmen who espouse Conservative values, you would hate them just as much. I know it is hard for you to understand, but the entire country has Bush as president. The rest of the country is performing much better economically, do you see that? The next major blow to the domestic auto industry will be the CAFE standards legislation being advocated by liberals and tree huggers who blame Detroit for global warming. Also one fake Republican governor of California. If that happens, one or more of the big 3 will definitely fail to remain solvent. Barnesfoto, are you willing to stand with Joe Knollenberg and try to stop this? I hear him standing up to these idiots but where is Stabenow and Levin? Don't you see the far left who controls the Democratic party hates this town and everything it stands for? Did you ever notice that when you go to the areas where the liberal elites live that none of them are driving American cars? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1806 Registered: 06-2004 |
I looked at Knollenberg's new site - it would be much more effective if he concentrated on the CAFE standard issue and dropped the Granholm bashing | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3168 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Los Angeles is being annexed by Mexico, anyone out there will tell you it is going to hell". Really? I've been there recently and I was walking around Fourth and Main, which only a few years ago was filled with junkies and winos. New art galleries fill formerly darkened storefronts. The place is filled with people, old buildings are being developed left and right, the sidewalks are crowded...many of the crowd is under 40... If that is what hell looks like, I'll take a ticket and another glass of Merlot. There is also gang warfare going on in South Central and parts of the valley. Kids getting killed by kids.. Maybe that's the sort of "terrorism" that should be focused on. Now, back to talking about Michigan. If you guys don't want to talk about the national leader, I can understand that it might be awkward to have a failed businessman and phony-crony-capitalist as the head of an alleged pro-business party. And I heartily apologize if I mistook you all for Pro-Bush Republicans. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2725 Registered: 10-2004 |
Another idiotic plan that the Barneses blindly advocate for the US is the Kyoto Accord which conveniently excludes two of the planet's worst polluters--India and China. Yeh! That'll do wonders for our economy. Asia can pollute all they want, while the US has to adopt extremely stringent and expensive pollution controls while our competitors needn't bother and just conduct business as usual. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3169 Registered: 10-2003 |
special rules for some, but not for others... why does that sound familiar? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 205 Registered: 03-2006 |
Livernoisyard - You are totally correct about Kyoto, its only purpose is to penalize America, even if it were ratified it would not affect global warming one iota, even scientists who are FOR it admit that. The global warming scare is crap anyway. Lilpup - All the Dems do is BASH! They don't have any ideas so they bash Bush. The Democrat candidates for president continue to bash him even though he isn't even on ticket for 2008. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 09, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3170 Registered: 10-2003 |
hmmn.all the dems do is bash? wonder why? Is the war over? Has it been paid for? Are the wounded US servicepeople all better now? Is Iraq safer? I'd post some of Bush's ideas but they change constantly, and Irish doesn't want to talk about having a failed businessman and phony-crony-capitalist as the head of an alleged pro-business party. Back to talking about Michigan, and Kyoto, the arguments sound like the shrill screams heard when they phased out leaded gasoline, which I think is still in use in some third-world countries. How unfair! Damn Libs, they've just about killed the lead industry. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3171 Registered: 10-2003 |
"There are plenty of self-made businessmen who espouse Conservative values, you would hate them just as much" Name one! (Remember, George Soros does not count!) oops, sorry, off subject again. Never mind. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 33 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Of course you can force another country to be a democracy" Perfectg: Who are we to say what form of government any other country adopts? Looks like "democracy" isn't working all that well over there. We've already proven they are or were never a threat to the US.. They had no WMD, just like they told us they didnt have. And the UN weapons inspectors concurred. Comparing Iraq to Germany and Japan is ridiculous. "Ask the Kurds in Iraq what their feeling is on these matters, they love the USA and know our goals are for the greater good." When Saddam was working with us to fight "our" other arch enemy, Iran. We provided Iraq with biological and chemical weapons, they in turn used them on the Kurds, just like they told us he would. We even supplied the crop dusting planes Iraq used to douse and kill 300,000 kurds. They don't love the USA. They wouldn't even let us on their soil to mount an invasion against Iraq. We're making fewer friends daily over there, and it's certain that our actions are costing us in terms of trade with the rest of the world and in turn hurting Michigan/Detroit. Oh well, it's only costing 10 million dollars an hour to be there. Sorry for the off topic... | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2007 |
LY and PG, This thread is heading in the wroooog direction. There are a million reasons for people to feel strongly, one way or the other, about what's wrong with this city and it's outer sub's. This back and forth is getting us no where. Although I respect your right to feel negatively about Detroit, I dismiss your blanket stereotyping of it's residents. Your absence of balance Is a glaring indictment of this regions greatest challenge. There is no way that a Global Co. would want to re-locate there HQ to a hate-filled segregated region of the country. You can blame black people for all the problems in the world, but your hate, and people who think like you, are the ugly mole on Michigan's face. Theres enough blame for the region as a whole to share in. You know, I could give you a long list of suburban influenced problems that destroy our city, But I'm a man, willing to own up, and take responsibility for mine. My challenge to you; stop pointing fingers and MAN-UP. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 206 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lvnthed I don't remember mentioning race, that is your assumption. I only cited factual data, which nobody here disputes. Of course there are good, hard-working people in Detroit. That said, there are alot of others that are acting irresponsibly that are destroying the city, not due to racism, but due to their own actions. The new definition of a racist is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal, something you have proven beautifully. As long as your side tries to stifle debate by calling someone a racist, the root causes of the problems of the city and the state will be ignored. I don't hate anyone, but I am tired of having to subsidize the irresponsible acts of others. When underage people decide to have sex and then have a child that neither of them want or can take care of, it becomes a problem of society. Their so-called "right" to have a child confers an obligation on every tax-paying citizen. Certainly this issue has had an enormously negative impact on the city. Business is not looking to invest in crime-ridden cities where 1/2 of the population are illiterate! That is not the fault of the so-called "white suburban people." What did I do to force someone to drop out of school, or get pregnant, or get involved in drugs? All of us suburban people out here would be more than happy to see Detroit flourish. All we get is more of the same liberal BS about the cities problems being our fault and accusations of being racist. The ugly mole in Michigan is the one on Granholm's face! The fact is that most of the people that have left Detroit in the last several years are black. Are they racists too? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 207 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sstashmoo Democracy didn't come easy to this great country either, there was alot of turmoil, a few wars and raging debate for many years to create this republic. I think it was worth it don't you? The notion that we should reserve liberty only for ourselves is what has brought these disenfranchised people to hate. If anything, Bush's vision is more hopeful than yours. He is trying to establish a free nation in a very troubled part of the world. Ignoring oppression was not working. Your side says they can't handle liberty or don't deserve it. Sounds like a bigoted opinion to me. I really don't understand people who claim to be for human rights advocating we should leave murderous dictators in power. The fact that there were no WMD's was a GOOD THING. We stopped him in time. Would you rather have Iran AND Iraq threatening to kill each other or kill the Jews with nuclear weapons? That is what we would have today had we not acted. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1818 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: The United State GAVE Iraq the ability to develop WMD decades ago when Hussein was an ally - Hussein did not pursue development and let's not forget that is was the US that put Hussein in power and propped him up until he was no longer needed | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 373 Registered: 08-2004 |
Israel has nukes too. They are not squeamish and will defend themselves. Israel is definitely capable of national defense; not from a large scale attack perhaps, but they are not helpless. Iran and Iraq are perfectly aware that Israel will not back down from a fight, Pg. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 208 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lilpup - Even if what you say is true which it isn't, does that mean that we should allow someone to oppress and murder because we once had a common enemy and had diplomatic relations? Every nation deals out of its own perceived self-interest given the situation at a point in time. Sometimes it works long-term, sometimes not. When Jimmy Carter allowed the Shah of Iran to be deposed the result was the Iranian hostage crisis and ultimately led to the maniac that Iran has in charge today. The most likely scenario for world war III would be Iran nuking Israel and you can thank Carter for that. I suppose in your world we should ignore the Iranian problem because the most incompetent president in US history (Carter) once facilitated their transition from an ally to a foe. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 09, 2007) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 209 Registered: 03-2006 |
Islandman Yes Israel has nukes, that is probably the only thing keeping them alive. You must admit though it is troubling when so many people seem to willing to appease and in some cases come to the aid of a nation whose leader's stated policy is the destruction of the Jewish state. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4125 Registered: 10-2003 |
What the fuck is this? We start with a thread about Michigan's economy and in a matter of hours it turns into a debate about Israel? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 210 Registered: 03-2006 |
Patrick, Your right, I too wish the thread would have stayed on topic. I apologize for being sucked into a useless departure from the original debate. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 211 Registered: 03-2006 |
Back on topic, it looks like Kwame has figured out that cutting taxes is a good thing: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070309/U PDATE/703090450 Now if we can only convince Granholm... | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1258 Registered: 03-2005 |
Kwame is finally getting his shit together. I can't help but like the guy this term. | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 941 Registered: 12-2004 |
Barnes: "Good luck Gildas, don't hold your breath waiting for your fellow war supporters to join you. And again, as a combat vet, perhaps you could tell us how to tell the difference between the "enemy" in Iraq and "friendly civilians" in Iraq? It's just like Germany and Japan, right?" Barnes the enemy are actually not too hard to pick out, one simple way is to see who is wearing converse shoes (why converse, I'll never know) but it means they are getting ready to run. Also people pointing AK's, RPG's and the trigger men for IED's are a dead (for them often enough) giveaway. Many are found, but its not easy, however it does work. Glad to know you opinion on this, if you're ever elected president, the enemies of the world simple need to know not to wear uniforms and then are unbeatable in the world of Barnes. Maybe the lack of uniforms show be an indicator to you the next time the media whines about "X" number of "civilians" killed by our evil military. As you implied, no uniforms does not means that they are civilians, they are often insurgents. As an aside, the criminal element in our (and every other) country don't wear uniforms, yet the police seem to do OK arresting them. Should we give up law enforcement because the criminals are not playing nice by wearing uniforms? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 212 Registered: 03-2006 |
Gildas - With Barnes logic, we should should de-fund the police force in Detroit because they have failed to stop all crime. Maybe the criminals don't like the American system of law and order, we should stop oppressing them by putting them in jail. Only then will we be safe. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 09, 2007) | ||
Frank_c Member Username: Frank_c Post Number: 960 Registered: 10-2003 |
Excuse me for nit picking but the first line of the WSJ article to me is false. As far as I know Comerica Inc. was created just 25 or so years ago by a merger of Detroit Bank and Trust and some other large US banks. So did not get past the first sentence....... | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 213 Registered: 03-2006 |
From the Comerica web site: Chronological History 1849 Comerica forerunner Detroit Savings Fund Institute founded by Elon Farnsworth on March 5th. It took in $41 in deposits on the first day of business. http://www.comerica.com/vgn-ext-templating/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=c1a9788635bd2010VgnVCM1000004302a8c0RCRD (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 10, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3172 Registered: 10-2003 |
PG...Jimmy Carter was not responsible for the Shah of Iran being deposed, the Shah himself and the Iranian people were responsible. Perhaps the reason that the Iranians hated the Shah so much was because he was a tyrant on the same level as Saddam Hussein, and their hatred of him may also have something to do with a coup that deposed Dr. Mohammad Mosaddeq, a prime minister they elected. Mosaddeq was overthrown by a US sponsored coup in the 1950's... Sorry, I know that this is too complex for a guy who uses sources of info like "anybody out in Los Angeles will tell you". Gildas, Law enforcement officers in the US sometimes have a hard time telling who the criminals are, and while the criminals are not in uniform, many of the criminals in the US are Americans who speak English, and have similar customs...It gets much trickier when the criminals are foreigners, such as the Chinese Mafia, or the Cocaine Cartels. Of course, if it was so easy for our military to go to Iraq, depose a tyrant who was a Pan-Arab nationalist-hated by radical islamists, btw, I'm guessing that we would have seen some sort of victory by now. If things are as black and white as Gildas tells us, we'll see victory by next year, though some folks were cheering a "mission accomplished" several years ago. I look forward to Gildas posts from the battlefield, because he's the only war advocate most of us know of to actually be headed there. But most of us see ten thousand little Husseins out there instead of one big one. What does this have to do with our original argument? It's about credibility, and nothing you followers of the naked emperor has shown yourselves to have any, so forgive me if I don't buy any of your solutions for the problems of the state of Michigan, which is an important place to all of us, but whose problems are, frankly, dwarfed by events in the rest of the world. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3173 Registered: 10-2003 |
Frank: thanks for pointing that out. Detroit Bank and Trust has been gone for decades. So has the J.L.Hudson Company. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 580 Registered: 09-2006 |
Michigan will forever go down the tubes until it finally acknowledges that their success is dependant on the city of Detroit’s success. As much as they want to deny it Michigan is not an exciting, warm, or scenic state so their main selling point to any prospective employer moving to the state is the Metro Detroit area, specifically the city of Detroit. One drive through shows a metro of 5 million that is seriously behind the curve. For instance we have no regional transit, we promote sprawl, we have a weak inner city, we have a weak inner city core, we are spread out and segregated, and even our suburbs are underwhelming compared to other regions in the country. The only thing worth blaming Granholm, Engler, or whoever about is how they continue to deny that fixing Detroit through whatever means necessary should be their number 1 concern. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 214 Registered: 03-2006 |
Barnesfoto - You keep playing the same notes and it is getting boring. You entire diatribe on this thread could be summed up in one sentence. "I hate George Bush and everyone who doesn't agree with that is an idiot." You have been owned by every conservative on this post! We back up our arguments with real facts and devastating logic and you keep telling us you hate Bush. You keep following your liberal heroes in Michigan, I mean, who can argue with success? Mayor_sekou How can you help a city that doesn't seem to want to help itself? I suppose you think funneling more tax dollars to the city will help? That still doesn't address many of the underlying issues. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1822 Registered: 06-2004 |
for the second time: So, PG, how would you fix Detroit? Pretend you're the mayor. (Message edited by lilpup on March 10, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3176 Registered: 10-2003 |
what facts, pg? did you disprove any of Bush's failures in business? did you cite any of his success? Which of my facts will you disprove? When you guys have a candidate for governor who is a self made businessman, not an inheritor of his dad's pyramid scam empire, let us know. And when you have a presidential candidate who is a self-made businessman with a history of successfully establishing and running business, rather than a crony-capitalist whose family has repeatedly bilked US taxpayers, let us know. Maybe we'll actually vote for one of them. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 582 Registered: 09-2006 |
That attitude doesn’t help. No not tax dollars I am talking about enforcing a regional transit authority, taking over the city of Detroit if it cant remain solvent, create policy that will discourage sprawl and encourage building in the city and inner core suburbs, aggressively pursue companies that may consider moving to Detroit, and other equally important things I don’t feel like typing. Essentially deal with those underlying issues that you point out as the problem with Detroit and Michigan. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 215 Registered: 03-2006 |
Mayor_sekou - Building mass transit would require billions, I assume that is what the idea of having a regional transit authority would result in. Taking over the city? That will happen by itself when Detroit falls into receivership. Policies that discourage sprawl, in effect forcing people to live in Detroit? Can't see how that is going to fly in a free country. There are no companies that are considering moving to Detroit to pursue, we can't even keep the ones that are already here. Lilpup - I have summarized the reforms I feel are needed within this thread already. Barnesfoto - Once again you come back with more hate Bush rhetoric, congratulations. Is Granholm a self-made business person? I thought she was just another socialist attorney out of Canada, I must have missed something in her bio. Well, she was on the dating game and stated she wanted to be an actress. She got her wish, she is trying to act like a leader, but her performance is faltering. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 583 Registered: 09-2006 |
“how would you fix Detroit? Pretend you're the mayor“ I know what Id try to do. I don’t know if it is at all possible or legal as I’m still an undergrad. Try to take over DPS or encourage the growth of good charter schools in the city. Privatize non essential city services like trash, parks, etc. Help set up neighborhood associations or committees like the ones that now oversee Eastern Market or the Detroit Zoo. Try to annex Highland Park because its just embarrassing. Rezone the city denser with less land devoted to industrial development Cut a majority of non essential white collar staff in the city bureaucracy Cut all non essential or inefficient workers from the city payroll. Get extremely tough with the unions that seem to run this city even if it means strikes. Have a plan in place to effectively replace the striking workers mentioned above permanently. Hire more police officers on the street with the same money used previously to pay city sanitation workers and city bureaucrats. Figure out how Chicago and New York City got those crime cameras installed in their neighborhoods and apply for the same federal funding. Try to convince the state to allow more casino licenses for the city of Detroit. Aggressively and publicly pursue a regional transit authority. Demolish Tigers Stadium and MCD if no good use is found for them within my first term. Lower property taxes so they can compete with suburban rates. Begin an aggressive national advertising program that convinces people nationwide that Detroit is the place to be, even if its not true. Aggressively pursue any company worldwide that is considering relocating their corporation with any and every incentive we are legally allowed to hand out. I could come up with literally hundreds more but I am afraid they wont all fit in one post. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1823 Registered: 06-2004 |
PG, I wouldn't want to misinterpret anything you've written so how about giving a nice, concise list of your suggested reforms, without all the additional verbage: (Message edited by lilpup on March 10, 2007) (Message edited by lilpup on March 10, 2007) | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 584 Registered: 09-2006 |
“Building mass transit would require billions, I assume that is what the idea of having a regional transit authority would result in.” And if it does so be it. Whatever is necessary to ensure the survival of our state. "Taking over the city? That will happen by itself when Detroit falls into receivership." Exactly. While I’m not a fan of this option it may be necessary for someone from the outside to some in and clean up all the messes the locals are too scared to do. "Policies that discourage sprawl, in effect forcing people to live in Detroit? Can't see how that is going to fly in a free country." It can work its been working in the United Kingdom for decades and they are a sort of democracy. Enforce a green belt around the region and/or cut funding and programs that encourage sprawl. "There are no companies that are considering moving to Detroit to pursue, we can't even keep the ones that are already here." A bit pessimistic aren’t we? While this may partially be true now if we take radical measures to make Michigan and Detroit more appealing then this attitude may change. But still it doesn’t hurt to pursue something we never had in the first place. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 586 Registered: 09-2005 |
Gildas: When you talk about crushing Islam, do you have any idea how many countries that would entail? RE: increase in federal revenues It's based on the super fabulous profits the super rich have been making as a result of all their tax cuts while the people living in poverty increases too. And why doesn't Michigan see any of that trickle down effect from our own super rich? RE:Giuliani cleaned up NYC by adding more police on the streets. Clinton signed a bill giving money to cities for more police and firemen which became one of the first casualties of the shrub's administration along with the Clean Air Law. As for Honda and all the non-union car industries in the U.S., wait until China imports their first cars here. And all the middle class people who have slipped into the lower class during the last 6 years will be a willing market. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 1147 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: Not exciting-depends on what you like to do. Seems like we have plenty of entertainment options. Not warm-we have plenty of warm months. Not scenic- umm, have you actually traveled around the whole state? Plenty of beautiful areas. I don't know what the answers are to the state's problems but putting ourselves down won't help. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 600 Registered: 09-2005 |
Michiganders love to complain about the weather. There's probably only a handful of days in a year when most people here would agree that the weather was fine. Michigan has loads of lakes and shoreline with beaches and public access. There are woods and trails and waterfalls and wildlife. There are golf courses. Something for nearly every one. | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 942 Registered: 12-2004 |
Themax: "Gildas: When you talk about crushing Islam, do you have any idea how many countries that would entail?" Not Islam, most Islamic countries are not involved in the terror producing facsim aspect of the faith. However the radical cultural part of the religion must be delt with harshly in order to convince its would be recruits that it is a broken idealogy and not worth following. For example Indonesia, UAE, Egypt, etc are all moderate (by comparison). I have never advocated destroying an entire religion or group of people (I apologize if I mislead anyone) however the radical aspects are a threat that will not go away, even if we leave Iraq. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 765 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lowell, Are there rules here about addressing the actual issue of a thread? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6485 Registered: 09-2005 |
Irish, I suggest you try to expand your thinking. There are many reasons why folks leave MI, and it appears that every post here touches on potential reasons. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 766 Registered: 10-2003 |
Karl, Respectfully, it could be argued that the alignment of the Moon and Mars has an effect on whether people leave Michigan. This post addresses why the business community around the country will not invest in Michigan and why businesses in Michigan are leaving. The rest is a a sad distraction. I understand that if you hate a national politician, and you don't want to face the hard facts that require this state to restructure itself, you might want to just ramble on incoherently about the subject that is near and dear to your heart. In regards to the subject of why MI is losing the battle for attracting business and investment though, that sort of distraction is equivalent to the ramblings of a drunk wondering why he can't get a job and determining that the best solution is to just pour another drink. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2400 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: And GOP apologists go through the mightiest contortions to avoid any blame for the people who controlled the both houses of the Michigan Legislature for years. BTW - the Governor has introduced her plan to improve Michigan, where is the GOPs? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 216 Registered: 03-2006 |
This thread points to a fundamental difference in philosophy. Liberals tend to think the "answer" to a problem is found in government, which descends into an argument about whose politicians are worse or better on either side. I personally don't give a damn about politicians, even those that may be well-meaning, however few of them there are. Therefore, arguing about whether Bush or Granholm are effective or not is beside the point. In general, I would advocate POLICIES closer to what Republicans promote but we all know that there is a difference between political rhetoric and actual effective action. My philosophy is that of a conservative which may or may not correspond with the Republican party in its current form. The issue is not what government should do about our economic woes in Michigan, it is more to do with what they should STOP doing. Prosperity comes from the ingenuity and hard work of the private sector. Government has a horrible record in terms of picking winners and losers in the business world. Therefore, government should STOP doing the bidding of labor unions and allow workers and management to decide what arrangement they want to operate under. This translates to Michigan becoming a right-to-work state. This one issue alone has undoubtedly cost us thousands of jobs. Startup and medium sized business, which is where the jobs growth will come from, do NOT want to operate in an adversarial labor environment. They need to STOP over-regulating business which makes doing business here more difficult. The tax structure we had with the SBT was the worst tax on industry in the country. To actually penalize a business for expanding with increased taxes was ridiculous. To tax a company on gross receipts, even though they are losing money is idiotic. Most new businesses lose money for years so under that scheme they would have been paying taxes on losses. Granholm has done nothing but complain about abolishing this growth-killing tax and her proposals to replace it are worse. The other side of the aisle needs to come up with their plan too. I for one, think we should be making cuts in government first before we start advocating new taxes on services that hurt us all. The inventory tax is another area of concern. If a small business buys new capital equipment to expand, that purchase is taxed by the state too. Another tax that discourages investment and growth. Raising property tax assessments while actual market values are decreasing - again chasing people out of this state. The new proposed fee increases are onerous as well. Doubling the cost of hunting and fishing licenses will damage the tourism business, which is an area we should be promoting, not discouraging. Studies have shown that every dollar spent promoting tourism brings back $1.40 in revenue to the state. Despite some of you who claim that our climate works against us, I disagree. Michigan is the Riviera of the Midwest, our wonderful great lakes shorelines, inland lakes, beautiful wooded areas, and wonderful tourist destinations throughout the state provide amazing recreational opportunities available nowhere else. Bringing visitors here also allows others throughout the country to see what a desirable place Michigan is to live and work. We need government to stop allowing crime to overrun out cities. Perhaps some of the federal money we are not getting back (currently we get back only 85 cents for every dollar spent on federal taxes) should be aggressively pursued to be spent on increasing the size of the police force in Detroit. I think Levin could pull this off, even though he is an idiot. In addition, we should clean the beggars and bums out of the areas that visitors to the city go to most. This alone will encourage more people to go into Detroit, providing much needed revenue. This model worked well in NYC when Gulianni took over. Well there are some ideas, so go ahead and tell me how much Bush sucks!!! (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 10, 2007) | ||
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet Post Number: 99 Registered: 01-2007 |
PG, I have been reading this post thru and thru, and you seem to be the only one on track with what this state really needs to do to keep, and attract business to Michigan. The proven models you provided have not been given consideration in Michigan. Why? We know why: partisanship. I am a public employee teamster and have long complained about the direction the state is headed in. Bravo to you for putting it so plainly | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 217 Registered: 03-2006 |
Bulletmagnet Thanks - great username BTW | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 767 Registered: 10-2003 |
Amen | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3177 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Liberals tend to think the "answer" to a problem is found in government" That's funny, considering a while back you were complaining about what a poor job Jimmy Carter (e.g. "government") did in containing a revolution on the other side of the world! If you don't think that the answer to a problem at home is found in the US government, why would you think that the answer to a problem abroad is found in the US Government? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 770 Registered: 10-2003 |
Barnesfoto "Your lips move but I can't hear what your saying" Tommy Do you have more than one drum? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3178 Registered: 10-2003 |
can you answer the question or not? Perhaps you are deaf, dumb and blind,(but sure play a mean pin-ball). I'll repeat the question. If you don't think that the answer to a problem at home is found in the US government, why would you think that the answer to a problem abroad is found in the US Government? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 771 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry I can't understand you. I keep hearing gibberish. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 758 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Therefore, government should STOP doing the bidding of labor unions and allow workers and management to decide what arrangement they want to operate under. This translates to Michigan becoming a right-to-work state." Who would this apply too? Would you want your kid's favorite teacher or your much needed heart doctor to get fired without cause, merely for having a difference of opinion with thier superior? PG, I really doubt by your words that you have had to look for work in the last 15 years in Michigan. If you had, you would all ready realize most open jobs are non union at will jobs where you sign away your rights before you can even start working for your new employer. I thought republicans were all about less regulation, and more individual freedom. Why would you want a right to work law that regulates a person? And further more, the majority of jobs that left the state did not go to right to work states, they went to foreign low wage countries. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 504 Registered: 01-2005 |
I have owned and operated businesses in Detroit and TX for many years. Unless one has done so, it's difficult compare the two states; it's not east to do just looking at the stats. TX is a thriving, growing, vibrant state with a distinct "personality" that oozes confidence and pride. The people there are, simply, "different." One can live there for 50 years, be successful in business, have raised kids and be a pillar in the community, but unless born there will still be considered a "yankee." Not an outcast by any means, but still tainted by foreign birth. I have many very good friends and business associates there but I'll never be considered a Texan. There's a pride there that's hard to explain. I had a friend there (recently deceased) who was a preeminent geologist from a TX family going back generations. A multi-multi-millionaire who was highly educated (a Masters in Geology from U. of TX.) When I first met him years ago and told him I am from MI, he looked perplexed, and in all seriousness asked me if I lived near Minneapolis. I thought he was joking. I had to explain that MI was the state north of Ohio on the other side of Lake MI from Chicago. I'm not sure he ever grasped where we're located. Nor, did he care. Very provencial. I digress. TX succeeds in spite of itself in my opinion. Its state government is screwy. The governor is the 2nd or possibly 3rd most influential politician, well behind the lt. governor and the chmn of the state legislature ways and means(?) committee. The governor and lt. governor may be from different parties and are usually vicious political rivals. There's a lot of graft and corruption in state government. The major cities have the same problems all big cities have. Yet Texans seem to be able to approach and solve their problems far more successfully than we do in MI. The voters are smart enough to know they would be nuts to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, namely, the business climate. The business climate remains very friendly and that of course is why businesses, including Comerica, are relocating and expending there every day, and thriving. It's not a big union state obviously, but most unions operate there and vigorously try to organize, yet they are big supporters of business friendly legislation. I think they believe their workers are far more sophisticated than the average MI union worker when it comes to knowing who writes those paychecks and what it takes to keep them coming. As screwed up as Texas' political structure is, the politicians know what it takes to grow and prosper. They are not under the control of the unions as MI politicians usually are. They know how to run a state. Ours don't. If one had experience running businesses in both states, and had to choose between them, TX would win hands down every time. It is no surprise at all that Comerica has chosen to relocate there and not only concentrate it's future growth there, but bet its future on that state. The WSJ editorial tells it exactly as it is. To think its facts and conclusions are biased, tainted, wrong etc is just plain wishful thinking and evidences a fatal head-in-the-sand attitude that will perpetuate the current disastrous condition in which we now find ourselves. (What's such a shame is that MI's climate, scenery, recreational opportunities etc makes one think it deserves better.) (Message edited by 3rdworldcity on March 10, 2007) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2736 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Which is another way of saying that those jobs were also mostly (or all) unskilled, and those Michigan workers who were canned were vastly overpaid for doing menial labor. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 856 Registered: 06-2004 |
Irish_mafia, I don't know whether to laugh or cry reading these posts. I spend a lot of time lately talking to people in Ann Arbor and California and trying to understand why ou state with so much going for it is such a miserable failure. I don't think its taxes -- taxes are higher in California and Mass. Nor do I necessarily blame the unions per se. It has nothing do with the so-called deindustrializtion of America -- US manufacturing output has never been higher. Nor is the imagined national recession -- the country is in the middle of a long-running boom. There are three answers. First, is the decline of center city Detroit. Every robust new economy growth mecca has at its core a vibrant center city. Without one, we are toast. Second, we have a truly ugly built environment, in the form of the decayed center city and a wasteland of suburban sprawl. Who the hell would want to live here? Coming from the Bay Area, it is to me like a giant open air prison camp. It's utterly dismal. Third, we have a strange culture that is insular, undereducated, risk adverse and inflexible. This culture is stunningly unsuited for the formation of technology-based companies. So, we have no prospect of attracting the new economcy drivers, who understandably want to live in a pretty, vibrant place. And our indigeous population lacks the wherewithal to succeed. Granholm did not create this crisis, but her initiatives are inane and reflect a complete lack of understanding. This 2 billion give-away is a sham. And the tax on services is suicidal. What she needs to do is put WSU, MSU and UM under the control of leaders who have a proven track record of commercializing university research. She needs to slash the state's budget and taxes. She needs to make sure Michigan is a right-to-work state. She needs to take the 2 billion from this bull shit jobs fund and throw it in to revitalizing Detroit and beautifying its dismal suburbs. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1830 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: improved industrial efficiencies have greatly reduced required workforces - these efficiencies are a direct result of engineering innovation, not the sloth so frequently charged against autoworkers - looking at output alone is a red herring, as is looking at certain averaged economic data without looking at the details - the wealth gap continues to grow while wages for the working class experience downward pressure via reduced quality of available jobs | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5198 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ray, I agree with most all of what you just said. (Message edited by lmichigan on March 11, 2007) | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 586 Registered: 09-2006 |
Yeah that did pretty much hit it in the head. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 760 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Which is another way of saying that those jobs were also mostly (or all) unskilled, and those Michigan workers who were canned were vastly overpaid for doing menial labor." Right! and their replacements have been buying lots of GM Ford and DCX vehicles. That's why every year the Big 3's profits are through the ceiling and thier stock is not junk bond status. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 218 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cambrian – I have probably had more jobs at different companies than anyone else on this thread. As a software engineer, I have changed jobs at least 8 times in the last 5 years. I have been an “at will†employee at every job I ever had. I have no college degree yet I make very good money and my future prospects look decent, even in a tough market like Detroit. I have worked at companies who had unions and did not see much benefit to either the workers or the company. The ranks of union members have shrunken by 100’s of thousands of workers over the last several years. I am not seeing how these people are better off by being in the street. As for teachers, they are no different from anyone else. They will not be fired for their opinions, mainly because their “opinions†shouldn’t even be relevant to their job. Sadly the mostly leftist opinions they espouse have the effect of poisoning young minds for years. The entire education establishment is run by liberals, yet we are all told it is failing. How is it that suddenly without unions teachers would be fired for their “opinions†yet most of the people in the academic community has the same point of view? I haven’t heard many school principals and administrators lamenting the fact that they would love to can the teachers because they don’t agree with them. This argument is preposterous and always has been. The fact is that certain teachers should be fired, not for their opinions, but because they are incompetent. Even Steve Jobs, chairman of Apple, a kindred spirit to the academic community, criticized the unionization of teachers and stated no private company could survive if they were forced to operate in that environment. He also said there is no wonder the educational system in this country is failing us. He was speaking to a group of educators when he made these remarks. A right to work law does not abolish unions, it just doesn’t force someone to be in a union and pay dues if they don’t wish to be. If what the union offers is of value, then workers will sign up. If anything laws like this keep the union honest because they know that people can opt-out if they are not effective. If anything, forcing a person to be in a union is regulating the person, not the opposite. The disparity between companies like Toyota, who have not been saddled with the enormous legacy costs that GM has, like having to buy Viagra for their retirees for the next 20 years because of union contracts, is that they can put over $1000 more into the actual product being sold as compared to a domestic manufacturer. This makes competing with them pretty tough. I am sorry to say this, but paying a guy 80 grand a year plus benefits for driving a hi-lo, which was common at the big 3, was not a recipe for competitiveness, especially in a global market. A worker with that same job at a supplier or other company would get a fraction of that. Is that fair? Should the guy at GM get 80 grand only because he had a friend or relative get him in the door 10-20 years ago? Ray – You talk about the decline of the city as if it is not related to the economic problems the state has had. Improving the business climate years ago would have prevented much of the decline in Detroit. Detroit has also had incompetent leadership for years. I don’t find the metro area to be “ugly,†there are nice areas and some not so nice. Some of the states mentioned that are out-performing us are similar in layout and appearance to ours. Texas has some nice areas but many of the metro areas are non-descript, with industrial parks and strip malls. Sadly, it is the IMAGE of Detroit that is dragging down the rest of the state, it has become a liability, not an asset. It is true that Michigan does not have the cache’ of San Francisco or NYC, but many other booming areas lack “coolness†too. In addition Michigan is one of the most beautiful states in the union. Looking at a map of the US, it immediately stands out as you can readily notice the amazing shoreline of the great lakes. Lilpup – I agree that automation has caused reductions in the workforce. Union rules actually forestalled some of the efficiencies that would be realized by this which has hurt the domestic industry. Putting people in a “jobs bank†and paying them for NOT WORKING was not a great idea in retrospect. I question the mentality of someone who goes to a building every day and does nothing and continues to be paid. This worker clearly has a sense of entitlement and dependency that comes from working in a union. If getting paid to do nothing is not a form of sloth I don’t know what is. Of course there are smart, hard-working union workers, but this behavior is not really encouraged or rewarded in a union shop. I have seen first hand how those that work “too hard†are actually threatened by the other union workers because they were concerned that management would expect all of them to work just as hard. I personally know guys who work at GM who work a few hours, leave work and have someone else punch them out. This is still going on NOW, even with GM and Ford on the brink of bankruptcy. There was a report on WDIV TV about this a few months back that was discussed on this board. Am I saying that non-union workers are all good? No. In the workplace I operate in, if I don’t perform I am gone! No $100,000 buyout, no benefits, just pack up and get out. That provides a helluva incentive to work hard and be dependable, which is really not that difficult in this day and age. There aren’t too many sweatshops left out there in the USA in 2007… (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 11, 2007) | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2007 |
PG, I am beginning to see a common theme developing on this thread that sort of hits home with me. It would be one thing if you people truly thought that eliminating unions was the key to economic growth, but all I see are people who envy what they have. This state wouldn't be what it is today if it weren't for the blood sweat and tears that my father, uncles and there union brothers shed. When you attack unions you say to me that my father, a man of great character is some overpaid lazy slob , deserving only peanuts for his fourty-two years of impeccable service. You are saying that a man who missed two weeks of work in his entire career, put FOUR kids through college, (I didn't finish)and Helped me start my business, is somehow MICHIGAN AND FORD'S economic problem. Last I checked, that was the american dream. Now you might think that economic growth means screw the worker and save the business. But, if all the workers are underpaid, then who is going to cover those benefits that businesses hate to pay for? OooH, I get it , the WAL-Mart approach. All you want to do is transfer the burdon from the companies to the underpaid worker, and by default, the Government. (And don't get me wrong, I LOVE WAL-MART!!! Great value) In My fathers case: 5 children 4 College Grads 0 student loans 5 homeowners 5 employed/business owners 5 grandchildren 35-40 Ford Cars/Trucks Purchased NOW THAT'S ECONOMIC DEVELOPEMENT!! Now, before you start yelling about my anti-business liberal leanings, I must confess that, although I defend Unions, I do beleave that they should be brought more in line with the business climate of today. Some of their practices just drive me crazy. Sometimes they just don't know how to get the hell out of their own way. My main Beef: Termination and Retention; Changing this one item on a contract to a merit based decision first, and seniority second, would do more for Employer - Union relations than complete elimination of all unions. This would be a great trust builder for both sides, and I would predict, a bridge builder for the future. I completely understand the needs of business; I just don't trust them completely to do the right thing. For the most part, unions will keep them honest. To The Disgruntled Union Worker I also feel that if a person is at a union shop and they don't want to participate or pay dues, that's OK with me. Just opt-out and take whatever the prevailing non-union wage and benefit package is. It's easy to criticize something when your ass is covered, you Hippocrates!!! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2747 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Huh? Was this meant to be funny? Or, instead, does this eggcorn demonstrate an expected result of a (unionized) DPS education? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 781 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lvnthed, Thanks for the thoughtful thread. My point is this. We do not live in a vacuum. It is not a question of whether our labor force is underpaid it is a question of whether our labor force will have a job. If we put demands on employers that other states do not... through litigation, taxation and forced union representation, these companies will leave (as they have and continue to do) and other companies will choose to locate new facilities elsewhere (as they have and continue to do). This will leave no jobs...union or other wise for you or your kids to make money and help the next generation start a business. If you stand alone at the side of the road with a sign that says "come hire me I work 1 day a week for $200,000 and I will sue you if I fall on the way to work in my court that I own, you will have set up a magnificent job opportunity for yourself. But no one will hire you. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 764 Registered: 08-2006 |
Companies hate contracts when it's a Union Rep enforcing one to protect an employee, but sure do love them when it comes to forcing thier suppliers to drive their costs down or to force their customers to pay unfair fees, i.e lenders. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 782 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not an issue if there is no company in your state to deal with... good thing we chased those bad boys away | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 765 Registered: 08-2006 |
I agree, who needs laws, let whomever has the most money do what ever they want. It will be like Feudalism all over again. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2402 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: I have to completely disagree with that assessment. The City of Dallas and the State of Texax had to {pay} Comerica a total of $50.5 million to move 200 jobs to Dallas. That works out to them paying $252,500 per job moved. If Michigan is so bad, why do Texans have to pay folks to leave here? | ||
Philox Member Username: Philox Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2007 |
The premise of this post is quack economics. Very, very few firms migrate to any location principally based on 'low taxes' - if it were otherwise, New York, Illinois, California, Massachusetts, Washington state, and other comparably higher tax/high regulatory jurisdictions would not be the economic forces that they are. Michigan's problems represent the chickens coming home to roost. Wider macroeconomic forces coupled with the disastrous policies of Engler who left the state with crumbling infrastructure, declining educational standards, and insurmountable debt has landed us right where we are. Now, we have to ask whether we want a future based on the economic model of Mississippi - low taxes and an abundant source of exploitable labor or states such as those mentioned where education, infrastructure and quality of life draw business. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1265 Registered: 03-2005 |
"Wider macroeconomic forces coupled with the disastrous policies of Engler who left the state with crumbling infrastructure, declining educational standards, and insurmountable debt has landed us right where we are." This is one of the funniest things I've read this year. Thanks for the laugh Philox. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2748 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Nice try, but as usual--no score after common sense is factored in. If Dallas wanted to attract the Tigers and if its offer were accepted, might the Tigers do the sensible thing and move their players and front-office personnel to Dallas OR should they move the ticket-takers, concessionaires, ushers, etc. with them also. In total, there are a helluva lot more employees on the Tigers than their players and front office. During the next few years, expect much fewer employees at Comerica in Detroit and obviously many more in Texas. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 783 Registered: 10-2003 |
Philox, the premise of this post is competition for jobs. We decide whether we want to be competitive attracting and retaining businesses as a state or not. To date, we are not competitive. You can keep your head in the sand or address the issue. Apparently we know your choice. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 238 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lvnthed - I never said all union workers were overpaid, lazy slobs. I am sure your relatives were exemplary employees but that comes from their own work ethic, not the union. In a union, seniority is emphasized over encouraging high productivity, hard work and innovation as a rule. We are past the days of the sit down strike of the 1930's where workers were being exploited. The pendulum has swung too far back in the other direction. It is also not correct to assume that nobody would be getting decent wages in this country if it wasn't for unions. That is good union propaganda though. I have never been in a union nor has my profession ever been organized, even though attempts have been made. Most people in my profession make more than union workers. The reality is that being in a union today almost guarantees you will eventually be gotten rid of. We can continue to be one of the last places in the country to try and shelter the unions at the expense of the greater good of the state or we can recognize and react to the realities of the market. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 13, 2007) (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 13, 2007) | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2403 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: First off, you're assuming that Comerica will move more of its employees to Dallas. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. We don't know at this point. Second, and more importantly, you're ignoring the most important part. If Michigan's business environment is so bad, why would Texas have to pay Comerica $50.5 million to leave Detroit? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2750 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Because Texas can... | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2405 Registered: 12-2004 |
Michigan could pay a bank to move here. Instead, we have banks moving in without us have to pay them $50.5 million. How does any of this prove that Michigan's business climate sucks? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2751 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, one reason was to ensure that Comerica didn't go elsewhere. It's predicted that three states could well be Comerica's business identity in the near future, and those three states are south or west--not near Michigan. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 242 Registered: 03-2006 |
Fnemecek - I think it is great that Fifth Third is expanding here, but the overwhelming trend in Michigan has been the opposite. The fact that other states are doing better at attracting new investments points to fundamental problems with our business climate. Henry Ford would never have been be able to start an auto company if he faced the same business environment that we currently have in Michigan. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2754 Registered: 10-2004 |
Comerica would well sell off some of its Michigan's assets to others, such as Fifth Third, and be a win-win for both parties. But that will reflect and demonstrate Michigan's diminishing financial presence. Fifth Third's move probably means that might be already occurring. It makes more sense for Comerica to sell now, when its market value is high. So, get used to it! It's inevitable. Los Angeles probably felt bad when it lost its two NFL teams, but time moves on. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on March 13, 2007) | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 521 Registered: 01-2005 |
Where are you people getting that $50.5 million number from (the amount TX allegedly gave CMA to move there?) TX gave CMA a $3.5 million grant to help cover moving expenses. Nickles and dimes in the scheme of things. That won't even buy CMA a decent fractional time share in a decent corporate jet. | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 761 Registered: 01-2006 |
quote: Funny, I wouldn't feel bad if we lost our NFL team. ..... | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4133 Registered: 10-2003 |
Michibama here we come | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hold on a minute, I am 100% in favor of radical change in our business climate. I understand that we as a region, need a total overhaul of our own thought process, when it comes to labor relations. That said, I am not willing to let economic fear be the driving force in my life as it pertains to changes that are needed for this region. As we all know; anyone who would sacrifice freedom for security deserver neither. I guess the point i'm making is; Lets not jump off the bridge because things are going bad. There is still a chance to make sound business decisions to grow the economy that serve both employer and employee. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 536 Registered: 01-2005 |
For a great comparison between TX and MI in about 100 categories, go to the following site: http://www.bida.state.tx.us/50 state Use the pull-down menu to select "Michigan" and check all the boxes beneath it. MI excells over TX in many categories and TX excells in many others. You'll be surprised how much you'll learn about MI; I gained quite a bit of info I never had before. There would be much more meaningful discussions on threads like this, rather than the state-bashing that seems to predominate. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2003 |
3rdworld, that link did not work for me. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 538 Registered: 01-2005 |
Sorry, I made a typo (par for the course.) The link is: http://www.bidc.state.tx.us/50 state Hope it works. Thanks for taking the time to view it. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1276 Registered: 03-2005 |
Michigan Attacks Its Economic Malaise March 20, 2007 The Wall Street Journal, letters to the editor Your March 9 editorial "MoveOnoutofMichigan.org" has misleading information about Gov. Jennifer Granholm's budget and tax restructuring proposal. As Michigan's treasurer and the governor's chief economic adviser, I must set the record straight. First, Comerica Bank's announcement that it plans to move its headquarters out of Detroit included no mention of Michigan's tax structure or Comerica's tax burden. You were correct on one point: Gov. Granholm's tax restructuring proposal would replace the Single Business Tax, which is due to expire at the end of the year. As proposed, the Michigan Business Tax offers a simplified, more business friendly levy that also provides a $500 million tax cut for businesses, including a $250 million reduction for small businesses. An equally important part of the proposal is a 2% excise tax on services. This would better align the tax structure with economic activity and allow the state to end years of disinvestment in Michigan and its citizens. After numerous tax cuts, which resulted in dwindling state revenues, it is time to try another strategy: investment. Gov. Granholm believes it is more important than ever to provide a great education to our children, make health care accessible to all, and to diversify our economy. Even with this tax restructuring, Michigan's business tax burden would be lower than it was in the heydays of the late 1990s and would remain below the national average: Michigan is not a high tax state, and won't be if the governor's plan were to be enacted as introduced. You also played free with job loss, tax cut and spending figures. While Michigan has lost 335,000 jobs since its 1999 employment peak, more than half were lost between 2000 and 2002, under former Gov. Engler, whom you also state "succeeded in cutting income-tax rates. . . ." I would argue that those cuts have left anything but a legacy of "success." Spending reductions did not accompany those tax cuts and Michigan's budget surplus, a robust $2.3 billion in 2000, was nearly eliminated by the end of 2002, when Gov. Engler left office. As for excess spending, between 1995 and 2002, excluding federal aid, the state spent an aggregate $3.4 billion above the rate of inflation and population growth. Since 2002, including four years under Gov. Granholm, spending has been $4.6 billion below the rate of inflation (as measured by the state and local price deflator) and population growth. There is no doubt Michigan's current economic malaise is directly linked to the domestic auto industry. One needs to look no further than a study conducted by the Upjohn Institute, a nonpartisan, nonprofit research organization. It found Michigan's economic problems can be explained entirely by its dependence on the Big Three and the fact that the state's share of automotive employment is almost eight times the national average. According to the study, "it is difficult for any Michigan policy to fully offset the large, negative effects of the competitive challenges facing the Big Three auto companies." Robert J. Kleine Michigan State Treasurer Lansing, Mich. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5261 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mr. Joshua, can you provide a link? | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1277 Registered: 03-2005 |
Lmich, it's for subscribers only. I'm not sure to what degree Mr Kleine's retort is fact-based or propaganda, but feel that it's important to provide both sides of any story. The WSJ apparently does too. This is why I no longer read the NY Times. They don't even attempt to be objective any longer and haven't for years. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5264 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'd take it with a grain of salt, though, as he is the treasurer, and is obviously going to spin, a bit. But, I'd take the decidedly conservative WSJ editorial board with even more grains of salt, who aren't just out to kick Granholm (I've heard they've done more than one unflattering story on Granholm), but aren't privy to the facts that treasure is privy to. (Message edited by lmichigan on March 20, 2007) | ||
Revolutionary Member Username: Revolutionary Post Number: 123 Registered: 09-2004 |
Maybe we can get Engler back, he did such great things for the state. He still lives here right? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5268 Registered: 10-2003 |
lol! | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 327 Registered: 03-2006 |
I think we should go along with everything Granholm wants, how can you argue with success? I think the new service tax is just what we need to turn things around. I just wonder why she waited 5 long years to come up with these new ideas. If she would have raised taxes on day 1, we would be booming by now. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5273 Registered: 10-2003 |
Another "lol!" for you, too. | ||
Eastsidedame Member Username: Eastsidedame Post Number: 58 Registered: 12-2006 |
Have any of you DEIOPs (Detroit Exiles In Other Places) seen the ad with Jeff Daniels enticing businesses to relocate to Michigan? They're all over the cable news stations and CNBC here in Texas ad nauseum. "Michigan Gives You The Upper Hand." says Jeff all business-like. They show this weird map of Michigan at the bottom with the UP looking obviously disproportionately small to the LP..like "don't go to the UP, though, and screw up the wilderness." Then, they profile some company, seems like anybody, SO HAPPY and SO BUSY making money in Michigan....but NOTHING IN DETROIT. No mention of Detroit, whatsoever. I never timed this ad, but it seems longer than 30 seconds. Just wonder if you're seeing this in any other state. And you current residents, you should know what's going on behind your backs. Here's the story from AdAge dated June 2006. The real slap in the face is the dateline: ****************************** ***************** DETROIT (AdAge.com) -- As its economy gets hammered by auto industry woes, the state of Michigan is backing a two-year, $20 million ad campaign to try to attract new businesses. Gov. Jennifer Granholm today unveiled what's believed to be the Great Lakes State's most aggressive effort of its kind at an annual gathering of corporate and political movers and shakers. Actor-director Jeff Daniels, who lives in rural Chelsea, Mich., hosts and narrates TV spots that tell the stories of CEOs who have expanded their operations in the state. The theme is "Michigan gives you the Upper Hand," a play on the shape of the state, which resembles a hand. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 56 Registered: 09-2006 |
I guess I don't understand your complaint. These are ads put on by the Michigan Economic Development Corporation. Jeff Daniels is a likeable national celebrity who also has a business here. The goal is to try to bring more businesses to our state. Why are you riled up? You can see some of the ads here. http://www.michigan.org/medc/a boutus/biz/index.asp?showall=t rue&c=MEDC | ||
Eastsidedame Member Username: Eastsidedame Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-2006 |
Ffdfd: "....but NOTHING IN DETROIT. No mention of Detroit, whatsoever." This campaign has been going on for almost a year now and I've been waiting for a plug for Detroit. Or a suburb, even. That's my issue. I think Detroit should be getting some notice from this campaign as a good place for businesses to relocate. Wouldn't you agree? | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 197 Registered: 10-2006 |
Maybe because it's a state campaign, not a SE Michigan campaign. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 57 Registered: 09-2006 |
Yeah, what Dds wrote. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6701 Registered: 09-2005 |
Seems like Detroit could campaign as a place with plentiful, inexpensive and available infrastructure, access to the largest bodies of fresh water in the world, vast quantities of quality, inexpensive housing, and world class museums & other attractions. The sticking points (points that have to be carefully and truthfully presented) are: safe streets, low taxes, excellent schools, and a ready, willing, and reasonably-priced labor force. Without those securely in place, Detroit will get left in the dust by competitors who presently have all, or nearly all of them. |
