Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » More TALK about putting together a SE Michgan mass transit system « Previous Next »
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 717
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Community rallies to support mass transit

By Beth Garcia
C & G Staff Writer

ROYAL OAK — Mass transit is successful in cities across the country and there’s no reason it can’t be successful here, said Megan Owens, executive director of Transportation Riders United (TRU).

Owens, along with John Hertel of the Regional Transportation Coordinating Council, met with more than 100 residents and government officials Feb. 26 at a mass transit town hall meeting hosted by state Rep. Marie Dongian, D-Royal Oak.

Donigan invited Owens and Hertel to the Royal Oak town hall meeting to educate residents on viable options for a southeastern Michigan mass transit system.

According to Owens, metro Detroit is lacking quality public transit options, provoking younger generations to flee the state.

“People like to live, work, shop and play in communities with transit options,” she said. “They want another choice to transportation and we aren’t providing that.”

Hertel said that although public transit is costly and complicated, it’s feasible for Detroit and its suburbs if residents rally behind the cause. The Regional Transportation Coordinating Council, a multi-governmental transit board, has sent Hertel to areas across southeastern Michigan to uncover local transit needs.

“I need to find out what you need, what you want in public transit,” he said. “But more importantly, I need to find out what you are willing to publicly support.”

The regional director said public support and desire are the largest factors for public transit systems since funding for these transit opportunities come from not only federal, but also local funds. According to Michigan’s 2008 proposed budget, the state looks to provide just over $304 million to public transportation and freight services. This, according to Donigan, means mass transit gets approximately 9 percent of the state’s transportation funding.

“Transit is suppose to get 10 percent of the funds, but currently doesn’t,” she said.

Although local regions will have to bear a heavy financial burden for an efficient public transit system, Owens said the investment can positively affect the area.

“Communities nationwide receive, on average, $6 of local business for every $1 invested in transit,” she said. “When Dallas rebuilt its transit system years ago, they saw $3.1 billion of new investment in the areas along the transit lines. The system also created nearly 30,000 new jobs in the Dallas area.”

According to Owens, Michigan will see a step in the right direction when it unveils a transit line this year that connects Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dearborn and the Metropolitan Detroit Airport. The test system, if successful, could prompt more transit lines in the future.

However, to shift public and political interest in mass transit, officials believe residents must get involved, claiming approval and funding ultimately rests with the public.

Donigan, recently named chair of the House’s new public transit subcommittee, said Michigan’s economy needs the benefits of public transit as much as its residents. She encourages residents to contact local and government officials on behalf of public transit, touting the area’s need for an effective system.

“We are leaving lots and lots of people behind in the community, and we are never going to grow and prosper as a state if we continue to do this,” she said. “Our citizens need adequate transportation. It enables everyone to participate in our economy.”

For more information on TRU, and links to other public transit organizations, visit detroittransit.org.

http://www.candgnews.com/Homep age-Articles/2007/03-07-07/RG- TRANSIT.asp
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1593
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You say "TALK" like it's a bad thing. :-) Nice article, though.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5187
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Talking, in and of itself, is nothing bad. In fact, it's a good thing. But, we've been talking for literally decades, now. This talk, though, will definitely actually lead to something, this time. The stars haven't been aligned like this for a very long time.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2717
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The stars haven't been aligned like this for a very long time.


Delphi, Tower Automotive, Collins & Aikman, Dana, Pfizer, Comerica, ...
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5189
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We're not even on the same page, buddy. BTW, I can't wait until you (and people like you) get the f%ck out of Michigan, already.

(Message edited by lmichigan on March 09, 2007)
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Jeduncan
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Username: Jeduncan

Post Number: 54
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 2:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ouch.
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Hans57
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Username: Hans57

Post Number: 39
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 2:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I concur Jeduncan.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 579
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL, that was funny Lmich.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 718
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You say "TALK" like it's a bad thing. :-) Nice article, though."

That's because that's as far as it well ever go...all these groups, both public and private, spend all this time discussing a transit system, form a plan, congratulate themselves, and then they stop and run around yelling, "We did it! we did it!...

...seems like their ultimate goal is to form a plan, and not to ever see it implemented...it's weird...

I'll admit, it's not as if I could put together a mass transit system in SE MI either...but it just annoys me when these people act as though they are doing the region some great public service by talking about how cool it would be if Detroit had a light rail system like Chicago and DC...


(Message edited by thejesus on March 09, 2007)

(Message edited by thejesus on March 09, 2007)
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is mass transit even viable in SE Mich anymore? 50 years of sprawl development seems to have removed the option. How to you serve a population that wants to live as far apart from eachother as possible?
Also, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of commuters go suburb to suburb, not suburb to Downtown.
Seems like the time has come where we simply shelve the idea of mass transit and accept the fact that we've created an area where it simply will not ever be feasible.
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 458
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thats a horrible idea...look at LA. THey're starting to develop a world class transit system. Who though that would have been plausable 10-15 years ago
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1086
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moving forward on mass transit in Metro Detroit depends largely on two projects right now. If these two can get up and running this year and attract enough riders, the proverbial snowball could start rolling down the hill. There is a lot of momentum behind these projects and it appears that demand for these services has been underestimated. The two projects are the Detroit/Ann Arbor commuter rail line and the U.S. 23 commuter rail line.

U.S. 23 commuter rail line could be up and running by June
http://www.metromodemedia.com/ devnews/AArail09.aspx

A2 Rallies for Rails
http://www.metromodemedia.com/ features/AATransit04.aspx

Trains to Planes Without Automobiles
http://modeldmedia.com/feature s/a2transit80.aspx
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 639
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With Detroit being the only large city without viable mass transit, it has been long over due. MUST GET PAST THE 'TALKING' about it though and do it.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2720
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

With Detroit being the only large city without viable mass transit, it has been long over due. MUST GET PAST THE 'TALKING' about it though and do it.


Duh! And DDOT and SMART buses aren't mass transit??? Since when?
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 459
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

he said viable mass transit. DDOT and SMART are more or less only used by people who dont have a choice...they both suck
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For too long public transportation in Detroit has meant either buses or finding someone else's car with the keys in the ignition
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 250
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's be precise. There are 20 metropolitan areas (as defined by the US Census) with a population of 2.5 million or more. Metro Detroit, with a population of about 4.5 million, is the only one of the 20 with no regional rapid transit system. (There are many regions outside the top 20 that do have such a system.)

There is a rapid transit service in Detroit: the People Mover. But it is not regional. There are buses all over the place, but they aren't rapid transit.

Rapid Transit is not clearly defined anywhere, so I use this definition: any mode of public transportation that is not affected by on street automobile and truck traffic, and whose process is not impeded by traffic signals.
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Apbest
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Post Number: 460
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cincinnati?
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 641
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tampa Bay you can argue as well doesn't have much of a transit system, but they are puting one in place as well as is L.A. Who wants Detroit to fall behind in yet another category?
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Dougw
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Post Number: 1595
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cincinnati is not in the Top 20: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M etropolitan_Statistical_Area
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 251
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My information is very slightly out of date; sorry about that. I am using the "Primary Metropolitan Area"; for that list go to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T able_of_United_States_metropol itan_areas

At the time I was doing my research, Pittsburgh (which has regional rapid transit) was in the top 20 and Tampa (which doesn't) was not, but I see that has now changed. I was using the most recent census; Tampa has moved ahead in the 2005 estimate.

Note that we are #9 as of the recent estimate (we were #8 in 2000), so you still have to go way down the list from us to get to a region without such a service.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2726
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scott, as mentioned previously, where is Metro Detroit going to come up with the money? The last time I asked you that question, both Pfizer and Comerica still had plans for this region. Now there's even fewer reasons to go to/from Ann Arbor.

I also put forth a historical example where Madison WI took out five railroad bonds in the Ante Bellum years and afterwards went into receivership for several decades after the Eastern banks foreclosed on Madison in the panic of 1857 or 1858, and the Mad City went bankrupt.

Is that the type of foolish fiscal policy that you want to impose on Detroit? Detroit must come up with at least 40% of the capital costs and all of the operating costs. Don't expect any assistance from the state because they are overspending way too much as it is. And we're assuming that the Feds will be footing 60% of the capital costs, if it is that much. It could easily be less than 60%.

It doesn't look good that you'll be getting your train set under the Christmas tree any time soon, if ever.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 645
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First of all I think that the real issue is that we would need better regional cooperation for anything to work. A regional system would be regionally funded. Not all cities in metro Detroit are currently operating in a deficit. The City of Detroit would likely pay for no regional transit system out of its budget. MOST IMPORTANTLY, the local funds would likely come from additional sources. Here in Charlotte, NC, the new rail line was funded with an increased sales tax. Therefore, the local municipalities essentially paid little out of their operating budgets.

P.S. With a metro area population of 4.5 million, with two hundred of Comerica's employees moving to TX it leaves the area with 4,499,800!
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1088
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The truth is the chances are very good that the two commuter rail line projects, U.S. 23 or Detroit/Ann Arbor will get off the ground for at least a trial run this year. That will be the litmus test. If either of those are even remotely successful, expect the service to continue. Once one of those projects are successful, look for other metro communities start clamoring for their own stops. Do you think Oakland County will want to be left out of the Detroit/Ann Arbor commuter rail line if it is successful and can easily be extended to Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac? Look for the dominoes to start falling if one of those lines proves successful. I wouldn't be too worried about funding. The state House, governor's office and Congress are all controlled by Democrats, the traditional champion of mass transit. Several metro Detroit democrats hold powerful positions in all of those branches. Picking money out of the federal and state piggy banks won't be too hard. As far as finding local funds, if gas shoots up well past $3 again this summer, as expected, look for a voting public that demands better mass transit and more commuting options.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2730
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Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Picking money out of the federal and state piggy banks won't be too hard.


Clueless... There's no piggy banks anywhere in government. The government taxes for all of whatever they spend and spend.

You're probably the type that fell for the made-up BS a few elections campaigns ago where the tax and spending radiclibs were talking up the fictitious "lock boxes" for social security funds and all. I bet you probably still are falling for that fairy tale.
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Scs100
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Username: Scs100

Post Number: 566
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Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One small problem with the AA to Detroit line. You go under slow orders (20 MPH or below) from Livernois Yard to the Research Lofts due to track condition and the switching of tracks from 3 different companies (NS, Conrail, CN). That has to be fixed soon. Otherwise, I would recommend just getting off at Dearborn and taking the bus. It might be a bit faster.

Oh, and if anyone cares, service from Detroit to New York and Detroit to DC via Amtrak might spring up. Rumor has it that Amtrak has had it with NS and their line by the border, so they are thinking of rerouting the two trains aforementioned via the Michigan line to Detroit and then down to Toledo.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 581
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Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Clueless... There's no piggy banks anywhere in government. The government taxes for all of whatever they spend and spend."

And so what. If this all lets say costs 1 billion dollars out of the 10 million residents in Michigan lets say 40 percent of them have taxable wages thats only 250 dollars per person over a 52 week period. Would you even notice? And if so who cares, if losing 5 dollars a week is what it cost to operate a viable public transit authority that benefits everyone then so be it. Im willing to pay if in the end I get a better Detroit and a better Michigan. Lord knows we get our tax dollars wasted on other things that benefit no one.
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 462
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Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1% retail tax in tricounty area seems like it wouldnt hurt too bad and would bring in alot of money...besdies retail is generally spending thats not nessecary so people will pay relative to what luxuries they can afford

http://www.urbanplanet.org/for ums/index.php?showtopic=36166
dollar amounts and detail here
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1091
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Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 8:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

There's no piggy banks anywhere in government. The government taxes for all of whatever they spend and spend.



Wow. Do I have to spell out everything to you? By state and federal piggy banks I mean those governments' budgets where appropriations of money are made for services to be provided or projects to be undertaken. The source of that money comes from taxes, fees and fines paid by the citizens under the jurisdiction of said government. The leaders of that government decide where that money will be spent. Some years some initiatives are funded and other years other initiatives are funded. For instance the state could decide to spend that money to expand a highway or add an exit in the exurbs or it could decide to fund a commuter rail project. It all depends on where the leaders want to send that year's money in the budget/piggy bank. Tard.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 652
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Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Apbest, here in Charlotte NC, that sales tax goes something like this: Most items sold within the state are subject to a 7 percent sales tax, which includes 4.5 percent state and 2.5 percent local portions. In the fall of 1999, Charlotte (Mecklenburg County) voters approved a 0.5% sales tax for mass-transit improvements. Mecklenburg County’s local rate is therefore 3 percent, which brings its total to 7.5 percent.

Could an increased sales tax of .5% work in the tri-county metro Detroit area? Probably. Also there is a 2% sales tax here in Charlotte, NC on groceries. I am not in favor of that, as I think food is in a different category from most other purchases. Those in Michigan should be happy that their sales tax is as low as it is!
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Ffdfd
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Username: Ffdfd

Post Number: 49
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Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George Will wrote a relevant column that ran in today's News with some good ideas about easing traffic congestion. I'd love to see light rail in metro Detroit, but I'd also love to see a Lions championship. Not sure either's ever gonna happen.

Maybe pilot programs along 23 and AA-Detroit will happen, and maybe they'll prove that demand exists to justify rail. But I'm skeptical. In the meantime, I hope there is a push to improve bus service and integrate the suburban and city systems. And maybe we can look at implementing what Will writes about.

An excerpt:
The congestion crisis requires joining an old material -- concrete -- with new technologies. Toll highways or lanes can do what restaurants and movie theaters do -- use differential pricing to draw traffic to off-peak hours. Peters cites I-15 in Southern California. It uses dynamic pricing, posting on electronic signs the continually varying cost of access to special lanes. Changing the price as often as every six minutes prevents congestion. Another California highway that uses prices posted on a printed schedule has increased traffic flow 40 percent.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070310/O PINION03/703100308
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Nyburgher
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Post Number: 94
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Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the record for trying to graft mass transit onto sprawling car oriented areas is very poor and there is no way that Michigan can afford it.

That however, may be a benefit for Detroit itself. Commuter rail on a few higher density lines and a system linking the core of the city seem like they could be done. The concept is to build from the core and build high density and mixed use.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 858
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Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 1:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We absolutely need mass transit. The high density development will follow the transit lines. Plus, the cost of mass transit will drain enough resources from the government to prevent the construction or expansion of roads, which will help reduce sprawl.

Part of me can't wait for the f'ing US car industry to finally die so their employees will leave our state and we won't have every policy decision perverted by their fanatical devotion to the private automobile.
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Nyburgher
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Post Number: 96
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Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 1:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's right. High density development will follow the lines so the focus should be on the core of the city. Let the suburbs go their own way.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5199
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Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 3:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They've been going their own way for years, anyway, with no regards for the central city, so it really wouldn't be much of a change. lol
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 820
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Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 5:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

where is Metro Detroit going to come up with the money? ...Detroit must come up with at least 40% of the capital costs and all of the operating costs. Don't expect any assistance from the state because they are overspending way too much as it is. And we're assuming that the Feds will be footing 60% of the capital costs, if it is that much.



Livernoisyard,

You argue that metro Detroit/Michigan can't afford to come up with more funding for mass transit, but you are missing a huge factor in the mass transit funding equation:

quote:

Getting more transportation money for southeast Michigan doesn’t have to mean new taxes. Tens of millions of Michigan’s federal gas tax dollars go to other states. The state’s representatives in Congress ought to push for a fairer return of the federal gas taxes drivers here already pay. Michigan now gets a 90.5-percent return. On mass transit, the state really gets robbed, with 43 cents on the dollar coming home, thanks to a federal funding formula that heavily favors states with large rail systems.http://arborupdate.com/article /450/detroit-news-calls-for-bi g-transportation-changes



The "Federal funding" for mass transit is not some kind of handout, freebie, gift, bonus, or extra money from the Federal government. The "Federal funding" for mass transit is nothing more than a federal re-distribution of taxes collected for this very purpose.

Michigan taxpayers are obligated to send tens of millions of dollars to Washington every year for mass transit funding. We have no ability to "opt out" of paying these taxes or taking a tax refund in lieu of mass transit services. Michigan taxpayers must send money to the Federal government for mass transit funding, like it or not.

Michigan taxpayers have only two choices:

1. Find a way to coordinate and improve regional mass transit and increase local funding, or

2. Continue our tradition of local infighting and lack of regional cooperation, and continue to give away 57% of the mass transit taxes we pay every year.
------------

Federal mass transit funding works similar to a matching 401K plan:

If you invest your money in a matching 401K plan, your employer will invest a commensurate amount. If you decline to invest your money in the 401K plan, your employer will not give you a raise or a cash bonus, you will just lose out on the opportunity to reap the full benefits of your hard work.

Just like a 401K situation, Michigan taxpayers have the opportunity to reap the benefits from all of the taxes we have paid for mass transit, but we have to invest some matching funds to get it.
----------------

Some people ask "How can metro Detroit/Michigan afford to invest in mass transit?"

The question we should be asking is "How can we NOT invest in mass transit?"

Like it or not, we are paying taxes for mass transit.

Fighting mass transit improvements in metro Detroit won't get you a tax refund, but will result in your tax dollars paying for transit systems in other states.

Michigan may still be an economic clusterfuck, but at least we can see our tax dollars at work when we visit Denver, Portland, Minneapolis, and all of the other cities that built new mass transit systems with the 57% of Michigan mass transit funding that we decline every year.
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 821
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Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 7:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroit must come up with at least 40% of the capital costs and all of the operating costs. Don't expect any assistance from the state because they are overspending way too much as it is.



Livernoisyard,

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension, or are you just trying to further the city/suburb divide with your anti-Detroit rhetoric?

This thread started with an article about a ROYAL OAK town hall meeting about improving regional mass transit. This article also focused on the proposed transit line from ANN ARBOR to ROMULOUS to DEARBORN to Detroit.

What makes you think that the city of Detroit should be solely responsible for building and maintaining a rail line from A2 to Detroit? Why should we not "expect any assistance from the state because they are overspending way too much as it is"? If we build a rail line from A2 to Detroit, I expect A2, Romulous, Dearborn, Detroit, and the state to all work together to make it happen.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 661
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Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ffdfd, the reason that commute times keep getting longer and longer is because people keep moving out further and further. I think the best way to shorten commute times/ease congestion is to move closer to the city, not necessarily to charge a toll during peak hours (although that may do it as well).

Good comment Ray. Once Detroit is finally forced to shed the auto industry, then maybe we will have better mass transit, as those with the personal vehicle mindset realize that their fathering industry left them.

Thanks Erikd for addressing the funding issue. As long as Michigan doesn't get its full return on its federal gas taxes currently, we might as well fight for federal funding for mass transit to help recoup our lost money.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 252
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY,

We had no trouble, apparently, coming up with the money for the useless M-53 freeway, which starts nowhere and ends nowhere. We had no trouble, apparently, widening M-59 in Macomb County from a 2-lane asphalt rural trunk-line to an enormous megahighway, with more pavement per mile than any freeway in Michigan except perhaps the Jeffries in Detroit.

Apparently when we want to overbuild expressways we can come up with the money; but unlike every other large metro region in North America, we somehow can't find money for transit. We can discuss almost $1 billion for Cobo but we can't come up with money for a service every other big-city region provides.

Hmm. I wonder why we're failing so catastrophically compared to everywhere else. Hmm.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 222
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't think of one job I have had in the last 20 years that I could have gotten to via mass transit, even if we had it. It would have never reached the buildings where I worked, or close enough to walk.

The young people I know who are leaving Michigan don't blame the lack of mass transit, they blame the lack of opportunity. The only people I know of that are clamoring for mass transit are on this board. I have discussed many regional matters with hundreds of people over the years, nobody ever brings up mass transit at all, much less blaming it for our woes.

Detroit is a CAR town. The layout of the entire area is based on having personal transportation. I have no desire to try to fit my schedule, my lifestyle or my freedom of mobility around some government run transit system. Even if it were possible to use some form of rail system to get to work, you would still need a car to ferry your kids around, shop, run errands, and every other thing you need to do.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2742
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 2:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

We had no trouble, apparently, coming up with the money for the useless M-53 freeway, which starts nowhere and ends nowhere. We had no trouble, apparently, widening M-59 in Macomb County from a 2-lane asphalt rural trunk-line to an enormous megahighway, with more pavement per mile than any freeway in Michigan except perhaps the Jeffries in Detroit.


So, do you propose another worthless boondoggle (rapid transit) to pile on top of others? The time for such transit came and passed at least twice--back when the city was awash in cash during the 1920s and when the People Mover was built.

Face it, Scott! All you're going to get is some form of affordable bus system--much like what we have today. And if the economy in the metropolitan region continues to suffer, we might find that even a bus system might not have enough funds to continue without its downsizing also.

As I said before, it's all about the money. You know that there is next to none for rapid transit locally or through the state at present and the region's economy has yet to bottom and it's a rare politician who's clamoring for squandering the region's scarce resources on rapid transit.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 671
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentleman, mass transit goes beyond commuting as well. Detroit couldn't host a convention for example where everyone flew into Metro airport and had a convention downtown. Back in 1998 I attended one in Atlanta where we did that. We could take MARTA basically everywhere that one needed to go for a week's worth of entertainment and gatherings at the Georgia dome. Atlanta wouldn't have been able to host the 35,000 person conference without having the MARTA system.

Also, often times once mass transit rails are in place people choose where to live or locate their business based on the transit location. So it can work that way as well.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 254
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY,

Oh, I don't know about that. I think spending billions of dollars to lock up pot smokers (of which I am not one) is a worthless boondoggle. I don't think providing the same basic public amenities as all other big-city regions is a boondoggle; I think that is something you need to do in order to be minimally competitive.

The biggest push for transit since the 1920s has come in the last 20 years. We had a chance to get in on it early, in the days of the People Mover, but we passed on the chance. City after city is building and expanding transit.

Now, from all the various posts in different threads, I get the feeling you are entirely pessimistic about Detroit's chances to be a 21st century City and for this region to be relevant in the modern world. I am not quite as pessimistic as you are, though decades of watching the politics here have made me a bit cynical.

We have to do something to reverse the region's economy, and anything we do is likely to cost money which, admittedly, is in short supply. If you don't think we have any chance whatsoever, why stay?

I think Detroit, City and region, has a chance and that in order to thrive we have to make sure, at a minimum, we don't exhibit shocking gaps in basic services.
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 467
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

god LY how do you live being so negative all the time...you must look 60 years older than you are.

Debbie Downer? more like Debbie Douchebag
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Buzzman0077
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Username: Buzzman0077

Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not usually a fan of fiscal irresponsibility, this is one of the places I think we really need to take a chance and create something. The arguments that we don't have the population centers or densities to support light rail is bunk. When light rail is installed density evolves around the stops creating the ridership needed to justify its expense. I think we should remember as well just how incredibly expensive and inefficient our highway system is.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1398
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY is correct on this account, there is no money for mass transit right now. Ann Arbor has the will to put in the rail line (from Brighton to AA), the rail company saying let's do it on our rails, the people that say we want to ride it, but it probably will not happen because no one has the money. The state cannot help out because they in such big problems they don't have the balls to fix, so unfortunately, money for mass transit is no going to happen unless someone gets creative.
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ericd, nice #820 post. Who here would not want to get back 100% of OUR transit taxes, to use for OUR benefit.

Since it is our money, why would we be willing to give it away without a fight?

Why are other cities that are setting up rapid transit seeing huge investment and renewed downtowns?
I'm not saying rapid transit is a cure-all, but a key ingredient to their resurgence.

I will say I support a system that equally serves downtown and cross town needs.
Is that worth $250 out of my pocket per year? YES.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 360
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YES???? We already pay $200 Million per year and we get less then other cities who pay much less. Our transit providers are over funded and MDOT knows this very well. And they will be very glad to tell you this.

So, Warrentite84 please click below to get a real mass transit system instead of all the bullshit that some SEMCOG transit planners are giving the taxpayers at public meetings with their great speeches and big colorful maps.

http://savethefueltax.tripod.c om/remain3.html
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 1255
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm in LA right now and this place is worse than Detroit!!! Although you can take the bus, it takes forever due to the traffic
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 255
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, Trainman, our regional per-capita spending on public transportation is much less than almost every other big-city region in North America. I think Tampa is less than us, and maybe Phoenix (until they get their light rail line up and running), that's about it.

I clicked on your link and I'm not sure what Mr. Griffee is after. What do you mean by a "real mass transit system" exactly? To me, in a big city, that means people have a choice as to how to get around. Of course, that's just me.

There is no region the size of the urbanized area surrounding and including metro Detroit, anywhere on Earth, that provides only buses for public transportation -- except us. Every other large urban area on the planet gives people transportation choices other than just slow-moving buses or cars -- except us.

Even the City of Angels provides a bit of enhanced transit, though as Chitaku points out, not nearly enough. But even La La Land is ahead of us on this issue.
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 50
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trainman, do you agree that we are a donor state when we don't get back what we pay into the federal government for transit?

It seems pretty clear to me that a "busses only" transit system for the last 50 years has failed us miserably.

Development happens around concrete and steel infrastructure, wether roads or light rail. Once in the ground, they are not easily altered without great expense. It tells developers the city is committed to that areas' revitalization.

I would like to cut back on more road building, and repair what we've got. The extra should go to setting up the highest priority LRT lines.

I'm not looking for or want a light rail line on every street. I know not everybody will use it. But a well thought out system that runs on 8-12 main roads and fed by busses, would help revitalize our downtown and promote density. A LRT system will also open the door of mobility to the handicapped, elderly, poor, and visitors without cars, in a way busses cannot alone.

Isn't that what we all want, mobility and opportunity for all?

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