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If pot were legalized - 1Beavis1981124 03-22-07  1:46 pm
If pot were legalized - 2Citylover89 03-24-07  11:41 pm
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 296
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL, Gannon makes a point. Open up your mind a bit to understand that if you are following anyone or anything (again, FOLLOWING) you are not being true to your own being.

He is not alone in saying that AA is just another addiction. When you substitute one addiction for another, even if it is a healthy addiction, it is still an addiction.

Heavy people who want to lose weight to make themselves happy and feel better begin exercising and they end up feeling better. HOWEVER, they become addicted to exercising.

Weight Watchers could not BE if it were not for food addicted people. IF WEIGHT WATCHERS really worked, they would be out of business.

Humans are, by nature, flawed.

There are NO Bullshit arguments. All verbal discourse is based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, and that in itself is worthy of our thought and empathy.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8759
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is only a tired ass argument because you can't win it CL.

Predictable because it is true, until proven otherwise, because of my direct observation and experience...and my deep understanding of mere human nature.


Thank you Kathi, for your support and clarity on this issue...CL also likes to become addicted to arguing the same point over and over.



Just like me.





Only difference is I am fully capable of recognizing it and admitting it.


Cheers, off to the Old Miami for a pint.


(yeah, I'm putting it in someone's face, and that isn't fair...but I thought it was cute.)
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2219
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wrong Kathy there are bullshit arguments and this is one of them.

" Healthy addiction" what the hell is that? that makes no sense.....zero.



If you know about twelve step groups then you would not be posting about agreeing with Gannon.

Here is a curious thing.The only people I have ever heard and I do mean only that spout this crap argument are those that use substances. I have never ever and I mean never ever heard a person that does not get high and demand there right to indulge on the heavenly herb say that twelve step groups are a substitute addiciton.........only thems thats got to have their shit makes that lame ass argument......coincidence?.... ....me thinks not.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 2220
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so fucking dissapointed in you Gannon.You make the same argument that some dumb ass that just got his 3rd drunk driving ticket and is pissed the judge has sent hin to AA because he ( the judge) does not know wtf else to do.......I see this shitbirds all the time.

"Why should I have to go to this damn AA shit , hell it's just another addiction?" what an enlightened fucking take on things.

Gannon are you being so fucking dense as to equate reliance on a program of spritual recover in which total abstinence is reqiured with some poor fuck going out and buying rock or a hit of heroin or driving under the influence? Are you honestly making that stupid of a comparison? One of those paths could lead to instant death i.e. the fentanyl deaths or a drunk driving fatality.......the other talking with like minded people about how they stay clean another day and you are going to make that comparison..........I am so fucking dismayed with you.I really wonder how much you think you know about the nature of the twelve steps.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 300
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL Quote: "Wrong Kathy there are bullshit arguments and this is one of them.

" Healthy addiction" what the hell is that? that makes no sense.....zero.
If you know about twelve step groups then you would not be posting about agreeing with Gannon.
* end quote

Cl, your reply to my post indicates that you are not willing to empathize with views that are different from yours.
Are you sure you don't understand the physiological makeup of the human?

"HEALTHY ADDICTION": Endorphins are released in the human brain when we exercise and these very same endorphins give us a high that is VERY ADDICTIVE. I know, I experience it daily.

You don't know where my experience lies. I do not 'agree' with a person in particular.
I do agree that there are only personal experiences that dictate our beliefs.

Are you challenging my AA knowledge? I do not enjoy a challenge such as yours. It comes from a place of anger and an unwillingness to even begin to empathize with others.

CL, your experience is your own. Embrace it as your knowledge and your ability to forge ahead in this world.
If you know anything about 12 steps you know that is about self discovery and NOT about your superiority over others.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 357
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 1:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drugs are already legal, over 50% of the US population is on prescription drugs, is that good? I don't know.

The question is whether to legalize drugs whose sole purpose is to become impaired. If they were made legal, would they be required to pass FDA approval? Could the manufacturers be sued for wrongful death similar to the makers of Vioxx? If not, is that fair to "legitimate" drug companies who ARE held liable if someone is injured or dies? If so, how long before the lawyers would sue the makers and providers out of business?

If they were taxed at a high rate, wouldn't that still mean that people might steal to support their habit? Would public funds be spent to rehabilitate and support the addicts that would result? Would the children of drug abusers be in peril and end up on drugs themselves if drugs were easier to get?

Would any self-respecting, mainstream company actually sell intoxicating drugs? Would you go to Walgreens for your weekly supply? Can you imagine going up to the corner store where you know the workers and the customers and going up to the checkout with your weekly supply of crystal meth?

I assume that minors would be barred from purchasing drugs so wouldn't there still be plenty of legal cases clogging the courts in regard to those kids who broke the law? What about operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated, wouldn't that be illegal? Would it still be legal to be fired from your job if you tested positive for drug use? What if you were a physician or an airline pilot, would they be allowed to use?

Would all of the drug pushers go home and be solid citizens or would they sell "harder" and more lethal versions of the drugs that were made legal?

I think it is silly to think of drug use as a "victimless crime." Families are destroyed, kids are abandoned or orphaned, people die, and large sums of tax dollars are spent on rehab and support for drug addicts. Would all of this be alleviated if drugs were made legal? No. Would it be worse? Probably.

I suppose the argument that alcohol is legal, so why shouldn’t drugs be made so, has some logic. We also know that alcohol abuse is a scourge of the nation and has taken a major toll. Do we want to expand that to include drugs too?

(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 25, 2007)
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 158
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathinozarks-

"....empathize with views that are different than yours...." I can not see Citylover empathizing if a view is WRONG. ...."AA is about self-discovery. Not about your superiority over others." In an attempt to dominate her post you took a cheap shot at her personality. I felt that Citylovers' analyzation of Gannons' view of AA was very insightful....also of her view of AA in general. So, what are you going to toss at ME now....that I can't have an opinion because I am a former drug user and drugs have distorted my view? Try something else. I beat you to this one....and, you are not going to dismiss my banter with Beavis just because you intimate that it shouldn't take place here. You're totally missing the point.








(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 25, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 465
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Once again wow. I can't beleive people are actually still taking time out of their day to read this. Here goes another novel......

Well lets start with what I have learned from this thread...

Unfortunetly you can not fight/destroy a idea without doing the same to the person behind it.

Lady- For what its worth I talk to my dogs and my girls bunny too. Hell I talk to myself. Never done angel dust don't want to! Heres my "list" pot,alcohol,mdma,mda,ice,crank ,coke,crack,heroin,fentanyl,ox ycodone,ritalin,adderall,hydro codone, 2ct2,2ce,5meo dmt,2ci, mescaline, lsd,shrooms,ketamine. I will seek help one day (If I become a father or start thinking AA is a good idea):-) BTW a lot of these would be far safer if they were legal and could be obtained in pure form. BTW I always thought they pronounced it more like Heron like the bird with more emphasis on the ron:-)

Cl Not on 3rd dui, that is mandatory prison time nowadays. Only on the first and I wish my judge was a he. He judges tend to be more level-headed. She judges are more strict but are easier swayed by a nice suit, the right look on your face, and some well placed words. So I guess you are right on that one this is not the first time I have been guilty of manipulation.
As for fentanyl funny you bring that up. I got some of that evil shit about a month ago. When snorted it tastes a little different and the buzz is more rushy. I stayed up all night and did a half gram to myself. The next day I found out somebody who shot the same batch I got turned purple and hit the ground almost instantly. So I put two and two together. I have shot heroin once and never did it again it is just too good. That was surely a defining moment.
Anyways whoever decided that adding fentanyl to GOOD heroin is a evil bastard! Things like this lead me to beleive I'm not meant to die this way.

kathy- I'm sure its possible we will meet someday. Its a small world. I am only 20mins from auburn hills right now. I work in that area all the time. Our main supply store is right by the palace. Baldwin road is my normal 'hood. I am also extremly impressed with your knowledge of how drugs work.

Perfect I will respond to you after my morning coffee.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 466
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am a former drug user and drugs have distorted my view? Try something else.

I never get tired of fighting off that one. On a side note did you see the sunrise this morning? absolutely gorgeous.
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 159
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beavis-

I can't watch the sunrise because I have a peeping tom. I have to keep the shades drawn. Who knows what he will do if I go out alone in the quiet morning. That stuff escalates, you know. I could take my shotgun but I can't shoot him outside because it would be against the law. I have to wait inside for him to come in....and for daybreak. Did your folks put you on ritilin when you were a little kid?

(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 25, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 467
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lady you never cease to amaze me! That was out of far left. We will have to meet up someday and chain smoke some cigs and chug coffee. I took a ccw class I'm familiar with the "duty to retreat" laws. Say you see somebody breaking into your car or house. You go kick their ass. You can now be tried for assault. Somethings not right there. Anyways your alright by me. What was it you hippies used to say? Ya got to keep on keepin on.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 468
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah I think I mentioned that earlier in this thread? I could do no homework and still absorb enough info to pass tests with As. They put me on ritalin because I was hyper. That hardwired my brain for life. I have and addiction to substance (amphetamines) I don't even like. I stay far away from those these days. One little bit and I will crawl into a hole for a week worrying only about cigs and more amps.
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 160
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went on a diet some years back. This was 1963 and diet doctors were in vogue. You just went and they gave you a handful of pills to take twice a day. I lost 80 pounds, but by the time I was done I was hooked on the speed and phenabarbital the nurse (who was a high school friend) was giving me triple doses of. This was my first addiction. I couldn't drink then (too fattening) and smoke pot (the pills made me paranoid). We can hook up. I work in Auburn Hills and I'm done by 8:00AM. Us hippies used to say, "love is the answer" meaning agape love not romantic love. Let's not get confused about this.

(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 25, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 469
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahh diet pills, ever had phentermine? Evil evil evil however they do work. Not only do they speed you up they make your mouth so dry you can't eat even If you wanted to. My first expierience with adderall and meth I got down to 157lbs lose 20lbs in ten days? That has got to be a record!
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2221
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beavis, I have made my points to you.What you are saying and doing is typical and has been done and seen countless times prior to you..............aint nothing new here.

Feel free of course to post anything but should it make any difference to you I am wholly uninterested. Not only is it bullshit but it is old and tired bullshit.

As for me you don't know a damn thing about me. I have told you nothing.You can surmise that I am a recovering person but beyond that nothing_

Kathy c,mon I challenge your knowle

dge of twelve step history because you chose to agree with Gannon.You should know something about what it is you are agreeing with or disagreeing with in order to have an informed opinion_ to just agree with Gannon with no knowledge or only a perfunctory knowledge of AA would necessarily prompt my questioning your knowledge.

Regarding my inability to emphasize with views other then my own_ why should I emphasize with an argument that I have heard before and know is bullshit.I understand it but empahasize? nope_ no more than I would emphasize with someone that steals a little old ladies purse_ bullshit is bullshit Kathy.

As for your definition of healthy addiction I think you are confusing things. You mention endorphins. The endorhins that you experince by exercising are a natural thing.It is beneficial to you.You come to rely on it and look forward to it because you know it is good..........are you gonna make the same argument that Gannon makes? Taht it is essentially no different than a junkie going out and getting a pack of heroin? I hope not. It is not the same. The same as going to an AA meeting or relying on a twelve step group is not the same.How can something so obviously self destrcutive(substance addiction) be the same as striving for self improvement or exercising to feel good and be healthier.........don't make no damn sense.

And just to get it out again the onliest people making the argument that twelve step groups are just a substitute addiction are those that use sunbstances.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 472
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your right, I've seen the light! Your calling it bullshit over and over finally made the stars align. But you know what? A stupid, babbling, junkie full of bullshit has managed to piss you off enough to type so furiously you misspelled every other word. You really don't bother me one bit. Lady managed to hit the right buttons but your way off.
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Beavis1981
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Post Number: 473
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Endorphins are natural opiods. Opiates use those same receptors and trick your body into releasing more than it should. Same concept as steroids. Overuse causes depletion of the natural compounds which leads to addiction. It's not the same but they both use the same circuit.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 474
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Back to sanity.... Define addiction. in the most simple of terms its just doing something on a regular basis. I had a consuler that said even if you drink only on new years eve thats still a alcoholic because it is scheduled. At AA meetings there is usually candy out and everyone is chain-smoking and drinking coffee. Can't blame them there thats what I did when I was sober! I define addiction at the boundry of personal rights vs. the better good of all society. When you start stealing or not showing up for work then it's time to do something. At the very least AA is a habit. Is it a better one than booze? Depends on the person.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2141
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentleman, your post this morning hit it on the nail. It was beautiful. The logic was flawless. For all of you who favor legalizing pot, Perfectgentleman's post is the epiphany that you need to change your way of thinking. I mean try to refute the logic that post made. Try.

(Message edited by royce on March 25, 2007)
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2222
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For such a self anointed genius Beavis you fail in a most glaring way to grasp my very simple point_ you are full of shit where this subject is concerned and not at all original_ beyond that I really have no thoughts.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8761
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Unfortunately you can not fight/destroy a idea without doing the same to the person behind it.



This is ONLY true if the person 'behind' it is unwilling to perceive any data beyond what they've already used to come to their current conclusion.

If the person is willing to learn and grow some, and not just be dogmatic about what little they know, then there is NO destruction whatsoever...perhaps excepting their PRIDE. We ALL know little, recognizing that fact is the beginning of wisdom...cannot remember if that was Socrates or Plato, but I didn't make it up...I just live it.


A hand that has grasped something tightly can no longer accept more.


A mind is exactly the same.


It only gets worse...stagnant towards ignorance...when they THEN continue to dismiss further data and opinion merely because it aligns with that which they disagree! (poor soul shitting on and turning from their path for healing, one of the weirdest human habits)


A sorry state indeed, but exactly what fuels fights and wars, if not handled correctly.

I have learned over they years to take open doors when available, yet be prepared for them to open. Bumping into closed doors repeatedly merely bruises one's forehead.

In THIS case, talking with the stubborn and clumsy CL is more akin to beating my head on the wall. It is of NO value or use to me whatsoever, I've said my piece.

I said I was open to the chance that AA and other Twelve Step groups were capable of doing good...there can be NO argument against those they've helped gain some control over addiction by introducing the willing to knowledge of human nature and habits...leading hopefully to encountering God through the Holy Spirit (or whatever terms an individual needs to use to avoid discomfort against previous religious experience and resultant bias, I am always reluctant to say anything other than the Other, since I can prove no complete understanding of any particular name...this set usually works with Westerners), the ONLY way I am aware that we can gain any true 'control' over our very cyclical mere human lives.


The very same groups STOP doing good for an individual when they do NOT follow through, helping the individual get to the place where they SELDOM to NEVER need a group for that particular addiction. If they are NOT building strength in their people, they are MAKING an opening for potential addiction to the group wide enough for a semi-truck to drive through. That same opening allows that previous addiction to return...it is doubly dangerous to leave open.


I don't care if it is sensitivity to an action, chemical, or benign 'beneficial substance' addiction...they ALL have the same effect, although some things tickle the mere human synaptic system in curiously perfect ways that increase the acceleration of the dependence (agreeing that there is a difference between them, but only in time duration of the addictive habit to form).

(religion plays upon this same thing, introducing the concept of a God but then actively and passively getting in the way of the individual actually encountering this wonderful Being...because to have the individual actually achieve enlightenment draws them to the realization that they don't NEED religion to get to God, and the religion loses their gravy train guilt trip income stream!)

The mere human machine can become addicted to any and all of them. I, for one, might have an addiction to random events against patterns and habit. It might be just a natural condition of the mere human machine, but I am willing to consider the other.


Cheers, ALL.

Here's hoping that you learn and grow some CL, this stunted condition of yours really fuels enough anger within you that you probably should get help.


Maybe you can find some support group?
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 442
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I find it very unfair that you can drink the night away, go into work probably still hung over and not an eye will blink BUT smoke a joint on your own time on the weekend and be given a drug test and be fired for something you did 2 days ago.

Whos to say the doctor or lawyer or who ever working for you isnt hung over or having withdrawls because they missed their lunch hour drink?

Get WITH it people! Pot is way more tame than alcohol, coke, heroin, etc....
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8765
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are all more tame that reactionary judgement and hatred...and the apparent willingness and eagerness to force someone into a box of so-called appropriate and normal behavior.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2223
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon you have said nothing new.And now you sound self righteous and preachy; as if you have direct contact with some sort of higher being and you are telling us how it is. Tell us how it is for you.............then shut the fuck up.

Allow me to bring practicality back into the discussion. And I will be very specific. You, Gannon have made several ignorant statements about twelve step groups.Saying most of them are sorry circles of people talking about the drugs they can't do anymore...............WHAT FUCKING CRAP that is again I expect better from you. What that tells me is you had very limited exposure to twelve step groups_ sure there are some like that and whole fucking lot of others that are not. Then you claim twelve step groups are addictive and someone should not need it after a time............what difference does it make to you? I really am curious why should you care? It is none of your business_ this is where you sound preachy and arrogant.

I agree with you not all users are addicts.But anyone that has enough courage to go to a twelve step group with perhaps a thought that they might have a problem and that there are people that have conquered their problem certainly does not need the kind of false, arrogant,
and ignorant crap you are spewing.

The fact is and this is a fact that for those that sincerely want to stop substances if they believe they have a problem is thru twelve step groups.Because this is where the most people are that have sucessfully stopped. Strength in numbers_ it aint gonna come from Gannons arrogant preaching.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 2224
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Btw Gannon the "group" is not the twelve steps.The group is there to share hope and experience the individual uses the twelve steps to grow spiritually. With help of course but the group is simply a show of support.

I would have some respect for you on this particular topic (i.e. twelve steps; aa, etc) if you simply said that you use in moderation and that for those that believe it is a problem for them if a twelve step or any other group helps them then you support that...........there is nothing else to say because then you become preachy.My disdain reveals itself when you start saying things that are just plain wrong.
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Blort
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Username: Blort

Post Number: 97
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentleman wrote: "Would any self-respecting, mainstream company actually sell intoxicating drugs?"

They do. It's called alcohol.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2143
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, how many of you would be OK with the legal sale of marijuana(mj) if the government said that as a way to repay blacks for compensation they did not receive from slavery, licenses to manufacture and sell mj would be given to "black-owned" companies as "reparations" for slavery. White folks couldn't make money from it. How you all feel about the legalization then?

Now, I pose that question because if you make mj legal, someone or some company has to manufacture it. Do we just naturally give this task to drug manufacturers who already make billions of dollars in the sale of prescription drugs. Who will determine who gets to manufacture and sell mj?

Now, let's say the government says that individuals who want to manufacture and sell mj can do it themselves. Do you think that the drug war on the streets is going to disappear because the sale of marijuana by private citizens is legal? The criminal drug dealer will intimidate any individual trying to sell mj in his neighborhood, if he's not involved, and he will find a way to become involved. Either he will force that individual home mj seller to stop selling mj or he'll close down their production and sale of mj by force. Competition for turf would remain and lives would be lost to violence trying to establish that turf.

So, who gets to manufacture and sell marijuana - black companies, drug companies, or individual citizens? Who will make that decision and will it be fair? In my book it just opens up another can of worms like the can of worms you would open up if you legalized marijuana. So, let's not legalize marijuana.

(Message edited by royce on March 25, 2007)
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Blort
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Post Number: 98
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who cares who gets to manufacture it? If you don't smoke it, then it won't be a concern to you.

If we shouldn't legalize marijuana then we should criminalize alcohol.

It's only fair. Why should people be allowed to get intoxicated anyways? Not good for society.
Every time someone enjoys a cold beer, they are harming themselves and their families, and their friends.

I remember going to a Tigers Game last year, all those criminals enjoying beer, some even had their kids and wife with them!

Everyone knows prohibition worked the first time around, just like how the "War on Drugs" is working today.....
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1914
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

So, who gets to manufacture and sell marijuana - black companies, drug companies, or individual citizens? Who will make that decision and will it be fair?


How do new pharmaceutical companies start? How do brewpubs and small breweries get to make their own? It would be like any other regulated and taxed business in the marketplace. Can a private citizen sell homemade alcohol? Are there moonshine wars going on?

surprised no one's posted this yet - Alcohol, tobacco among worst drugs
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Blort
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Post Number: 99
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Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh come on Lilpup, alcohol and tobacco may be dangerous and deadly, but the government says they are alright to use, which makes it OK.

Meanwhile marijuana, a drug that kills no one.......is obviously bad for you.........
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8769
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One only hears things 'preachy' when one doesn't want to hear them.

I'm cool with that.

I merely repeated myself with different words in order to clarify a statement.


How do you know I don't have some direct contact with a Spiritual Being, CL?!


I'm NOT saying I know YOUR particular path to enlightenment, only that it won't be exactly like MINE.

I also cannot and will not create any rules for this quest except that I know that I know that I know that there is always MORE of the Spirit (or whatever name you want to give It, as some find their path to true Love through Nature directly, some feel that to even give It a name is abhorrent, I continue to lean that way) and one merely has to continue seeking, asking, and knocking in order to discover that next wonderful dawning.



I am not looking for your respect, nor agreement, I require neither. I WILL add your argument to my continual analysis, at least one step removed from my direct observation...which is the ONLY thing I can truly know...and as it is hashed out in my noggin will have yet another facet of understanding, hopefully leading up to complete knowledge of the issue.


My argument still stands, you are merely rejecting it because it somehow doesn't dovetail with YOUR experience and/or understanding of human nature. I don't know that you've been on the lifelong quest for this knowledge as I have...but I can certainly say we cannot have had the same life experiences, nor the same internal chemistry...so while I'm able to accept and chew on YOUR argument, it seems that you are merely able to prove MY point that you need some help with your anger issues.


Cheers.
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 161
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon-

It is not about the group helping the addict at AA. It is about the individual helping himself. They are all addicts and alcoholics at AA. The difference is clean time. The ones with the more clean time help the new people, but it is all about getting a sponsor and studying those steps. If you don't work those steps, you will not change your behavior and find tools to keep yourself sober. There are people who sit at first step tables forever and just blah blah blah about their addiction. Then there are the ones who actually take action and want to improve. It is all up to the INDIVIDUAL how far they want their recovery to go. I believe the third step is the most important....it is "when you make your will align with God's will for you". I asked myself, "is this the way God wants me to act? Is this what God would want me to do? etc. If you know God....AND WE ALL REALLY DO, then you know what he wants for you. DON'T KILL YOURSELF WITH DRUGS AND ALCOHOL. This is what God wants from you.

Citylover-

God does not want you to swear and neither does Lowell. You are right about almost all things, so don't get so mad. Beavis is fragile. And, remember that it wasn't his fault in the beginning. BUT, he can come out of this. Be gentle. He's just a man.



(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 25, 2007)
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8772
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lady,

You are close. It is about the Time Being (God, Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, whatever you want to call it, if you must) being recognized, accepted, and then getting out of the way so it can flow through you.

The steps are certainly important to breaking the reactive cycle, but unless the Spirituality is flowing, even the strongest of individuals will fail. It is not IF, it is when.

That is the most basic of human nature..we cycle up and down, on and off...through our physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual natures.

There IS some negative spiritual 'other' that for whatever reason seeks to keep us from the positive spiritual 'other'.

Any denial of that makes their work easier.

They cannot cause us to ultimately do anything, but they can hit us with temptation when we are the MOST down and/or distracted from the positive.


Everyone must put energy into each when they are on an up cycle, or the system degrades over time...this is a basic truth of entropic systems.



If anyone doesn't believe in good and evil, please explain convincingly to me why bad habits linger without any real effort...yet good habits require a lifetime of attention and concerted effort to maintain at even a minimum?!
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Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 367
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

Perfectgentleman wrote: "Would any self-respecting, mainstream company actually sell intoxicating drugs?"

They do. It's called alcohol.

Blort -

Remember you can use alcohol in moderation and not be intoxicated. A glass of wine at dinner, a few beers with your buddies can all be done within the legal limit. Most people I know that drink are not alcoholics or drive under the influence.

Marijuana differs in that the majority of people who use it do so to get high and are probably legally impaired right then and there. Does anyone take a couple of hits of a joint because of the taste?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1917
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Intoxicated/impaired = based on a (somewhat arbitrary) legal definition

do the same for pot
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 1757
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentleman, how bad does marijuana taste?
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 302
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Partial quote from Ladyinabag from this morning 7:26am:

"....empathize with views that are different than yours...." I can not see Citylover empathizing if a view is WRONG. ...."AA is about self-discovery. Not about your superiority over others." In an attempt to dominate her post you took a cheap shot at her personality. I felt that Citylovers' analyzation of Gannons' view of AA was very insightful....also of her view of AA in general. So, what are you going to toss at ME now....that I can't have an opinion because I am a former drug user and drugs have distorted my view? Try something else. I beat you to this one....and, you are not going to dismiss my banter with Beavis just because you intimate that it shouldn't take place here. You're totally missing the point.

Lady,

Someone's view is his/her own experience, I think. So I don't think a view can be considered wrong. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

I was getting the impression that Citylover thinks no one else is entitled to a differing opinion or view. That's why I said I thought AA is about self discovery and not superiority over other humans.

In no way did I mean to personally attack her character. Promise. I don't even know her and only know it's a her because of your reply.

Lady: To empathize isn't to agree.

one more thing Lady: I don't know what you mean that I intimated you and Beavis shouldn't communicate here. I did say that you two should get together in person only because it's so much better to have a discussion in person. This typing things is fraught with misunderstandings. It's ok, you don't have to reply.

CL: I merely said early on that Gannon had 'a point'. However, the more I read the more I find myself agreeing with the way Gannon communicates on this topic.

A note to anyone who cares: I am a simple person who mostly tries to empathize with all people. Remember, I said 'tries'. Actively listening to people and trying to put myself in their situation is fascinating to me and I will never completely disagree with a persons viewpoint. I said 'completely'.

We must disagree with others at times. But to say a person's viewpoint is 'wrong' goes against everything I am trying to do with my life.

I bet I would love having a beer with Lady, CL, Beavis and Gannon. Lady and CL you are the designated drivers!

Oh, I don't debate well. Not good at it. I can never say that I'm completely right.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 368
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimaz -

I don't remember how bad it tasted, I tried it once in junior high and that was enough!
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 1758
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentleman, did you inhale?
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 369
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimaz -

Yeah, I actually got high - once. I don't like the feeling of not being in control of my faculties. Some dude and me got caught with a joint in school and one of the few teachers I liked was the one who caught us. He looked at me with disappointment and said "how would your mom feel if she knew about this?"

That got me right to the bone because my mom raised me by herself after my dad died and it would have broken her heart if she knew I was dabbling with that stuff. I never touched it again and of course my so-called "friends" dumped me because they thought I was a narc.

I have a problem with drug users as a result of that experience because they seem to dislike people who don't use them so my objectivity on this subject may be suspect. My brother's life was ruined from drug use. How's that for a lame suburban childhood story?

(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 25, 2007)
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 1760
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentleman, I sincerely respect your candor. Your contribution is appreciated.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8637
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL - How high is that pedestal.

You don't find it ironic that you are so certain in your beliefs that you call bullshit on beliefs of others that they are just as certain of?

I really enjoy how you are certain and everyone else if full of shit. Who/waht made you the ultimate theory in this situation?
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2225
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The bullshit is to say that those that attend twelve step groups are substituting one addiction for another jt1. I have never said that one way of doing things is the only way and it should be my way...........what I have said here several times on this thread now is that to say attending AA or NA or any of the derivative twelve step groups is not substituting a destrcutive addiction but rather it is a reliance on something good.

I asked or requested a very simple thing from Gannon.I suggested that he simply support those that chooses twelve step groups and leave it at that; nothing more. He can not or will not do it.Why not? I support Gannon in his quest.I will never tell Gannon that he should do things a certain way.But when he spouts crap about how people should not be reliant on a twelve step group and they should eventually not need the group then he is telling the rest of us how to do things_ why aint ya calling him out on it?

The other point or another point I have made that has gotten zero response is the observation that only those that use drugs be it recreationally moderately or excessively are the ones giving the BS reason why one should not rely on a twelve step group.
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Blort
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Username: Blort

Post Number: 100
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Jimaz -

I don't remember how bad it tasted, I tried it once in junior high and that was enough!"

You're going to base your entire opinion on marijuana after only trying it once? Hmmm.....

Saying it's alright to drink beer and not alright to smoke marijuana is hypocrisy.
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Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 372
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blort -

No, it would be hypocritical if I said it was OK to get drunk and not high. I am saying that you can drink and not be drunk. Can you smoke pot and not get high? I guess, but don't you think most people who smoke pot DO IT TO GET HIGH? Tons of people drink every day and don't get drunk.

I don't base my entire opinion on my one-time experience. I also base it on many others I have known whose lives have been ruined by drugs and they started with pot.

I can't think of anyone who used drugs and their life got better. Do you think the act of wanting to be intoxicated is a sign of a well-adjusted person? It seems like a crutch to me. If you dig it, fine. I just don't think making it legal accomplishes anything positive in the long run.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8639
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I don't base my entire opinion on my one-time experience. I also base it on many others I have known whose lives have been ruined by drugs and they started with pot.



The question is: Is pot the 'gateway' drug that everyone talks about or is it alcohol? Most people I know that went on to harder drugs were stealing booze from their dad's before they ever came across marijuana. I personally think that alcohol is the true gateway drug. Alcohol gets a free pass on too much.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2144
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 2:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, you know better than to say that alcohol is the gateway to other drugs. Alcohol may be the gateway to becoming an alcoholic but not the gateway to becoming a drug addict. Truth be told, low self-esteem is the gateway to all substance abuse.

Again, Perfectgentleman, you make excellent points. There aren't too many people I know who purposely drink to get drunk. Very few people in my opinion would take one hit from marijuana and call it a day. The POINT is to get HIGH. There is no other reason to smoke marijuana unless it is prescribed for a medical condition.

BTW, how many of you pot smoking individuals are doctors or engineers or lawyers? It appears to me that people who must maintain a high level of knowledge like the people in the professions I just mentioned aren't your typical pot smoker.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1926
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 3:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no, probably not, they tend toward other substances - more dangerous substances

but being a professional doesn't mean they're squeaky clean
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8643
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Jt1, you know better than to say that alcohol is the gateway to other drugs. Alcohol may be the gateway to becoming an alcoholic but not the gateway to becoming a drug addict. Truth be told, low self-esteem is the gateway to all substance abuse.



How can you dismiss alcohol's effects in such a flippant manner? Alcohol is typical children's first introduction into mind/mood enhancing substances. Alcohol leads to poor choices which can include trying drugs for the first time.

Beyond saying that I know better than to make that claim I would hope for some substance (no pun intended) a little deeper than 'you know better than to say..)

Saying that alcohol can be a gateway to alcoholism but not drugs is based upon the conventional wisdom that there is a difference between alcohol and drugs. I don't believe that to be the case. Outside of criminal penalization what are the primary differences between alcoholism and drug addiction.

quote:

BTW, how many of you pot smoking individuals are doctors or engineers or lawyers? It appears to me that people who must maintain a high level of knowledge like the people in the professions I just mentioned aren't your typical pot smoker.



A more incorrect statement could not be made. Many people in these professions (myself included) do not do drugs because of drug screening and drug screening only. My abstinence is stricly on the ramifications that would result in my doing drugs. I know people in nearly every white collar profession that likes to smoke a joint on occasion. The difference is that alcohol is only tested for that given moment in time whereas marijuana tests can go back for a decent amount of time.

quote:

Again, Perfectgentleman, you make excellent points. There aren't too many people I know who purposely drink to get drunk. Very few people in my opinion would take one hit from marijuana and call it a day. The POINT is to get HIGH. There is no other reason to smoke marijuana unless it is prescribed for a medical condition.



That is another incorrect assumption. You seem to be hung up on the nobility or social acceptance of alcohol and the criminalization of marijuana. Taking a couple of hits after work to calm down is no different than having a martini or a couple of beers after work to unwind.

Holding on to the belief that pot smokers only like to get blown out is extremely inaccurate.

Sounds like you were exposed to your fair share of after school specials.
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Alexei289
Member
Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1263
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I personally know of 3 VERY sucessful Dentists, 2 Owners of construction comnpanies, 2 lawyers (and know OF several more in the same professions) that are avid potsmokers. So that just threw your point out the window... all of the people i mentioned are worth 1mil + and are on the top of their game professionally.

The day i went golfing with them and they gave me some help to get started with my business... The doobie was passed before, during, and after the game. I think one of us even shot slightly below par.

You will never hear about it though because their smart enough to not ever give anyone that impression... and the fact that most people are brain washed into thinking "a PROFESSIONAL person would NEVER do anything like THAT!" They are people just as much as you are.

Your average engineer for GM wouldnt.. but thats because of random testing.

all of the people i mentioned make well over 200+ grand a year... and its not like their own companies are going to piss test them...

You never hear bout it either because these days... you tell the wrong person that u burn a fat one every now and then and you got COMMET and DEA busting your door in... and probably find a month old roach in your ashtray.. and now your spending a few nights in the hole.. and hoping to god they keep it in the state courts and as a misdemenor.


O ya.. it snows alot in the upper rungs of society.

Even more bullshit...

Cocaine is a schedual II substance. Along with codeine(tylenal 4), hydrocodone (vicodin) morpheine, ect. They have medical purposes for which they can be used.

Mary J is a Schedual I. Meaning it is the highest criminal drug. Has no Medical purposes, and shares this group with Heroine, extacy, methamphetamine (even tho regular MORE potent amphetamines (THINK: Ritilan, Adderal, Straterra) are givin to "misbehaved" children by their teachers) and the like.
This contradicts 4000 years of medicine by every medical practicioner other than a late 20th century doctor, to treat just about everything under the sun.

Glaucoma, Chemotherapy patients who cant keep food down, relief from stomach cancer, cateracts, depression, alcaholism, narcolepsy, epilepsy, CNS damage patients, Parelegics, stroke victims, chronic fatuge syndrome, Fibromialigia, i could go on if i had the time to do more research.

This ruling by the DEA was contested by several State and federal courts, believing that marijuana was wrongly placed under schedual I despite laundry lists of evidence to the contrary, and the fact that under the Schedual I title, all research must halt on THCs effect on the body... to REALLY find out once and for all what the effects are, benefits, side effects... just like all other drugs. Now the worlds most widely used substance behind tobacco and alcahol (both which kill Millions of americans each year) cannot ever be researched under the penalty of imprisonment and seizure of assets.



"Jt1, you know better than to say that alcohol is the gateway to other drugs. Alcohol may be the gateway to becoming an alcoholic but not the gateway to becoming a drug addict. Truth be told, low self-esteem is the gateway to all substance abuse.

Again, Perfectgentleman, you make excellent points. There aren't too many people I know who purposely drink to get drunk. Very few people in my opinion would take one hit from marijuana and call it a day. The POINT is to get HIGH. There is no other reason to smoke marijuana unless it is prescribed for a medical condition.

BTW, how many of you pot smoking individuals are doctors or engineers or lawyers? It appears to me that people who must maintain a high level of knowledge like the people in the professions I just mentioned aren't your typical pot smoker."

Its just posts like this that make me cringe... because i know its 100% full of bullshit.


But go ahead... keep giving your kids those amphetamines...er, i mean Ritilin. Maybe its a clue that its fuked up when your kid wont talk bout anything at the table and wont touch dinner and stares like a zombie... but i bet your proud that the report card has As on it arent you :-)... He will be the smartest dead guy by 35.. probably of a sudden heart attack... resulting from an enlarged heart.


I got alotta ammo for this discussion... this is one subject that strikes me very deeply... because i was one of those kids who were forcefed Ritilin under penalty of getting my ass beat.

Yet cannot smoke pot under penalty of goin to the hole...
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Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8776
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Alexei for that, I wrote a novella last night and had to pause before posting.

I'm editing it again before launching it to the ether because it contained way too much of my life experience and admissions that I'm not sure I want out there just yet.


I use the patented Dugout one-hitter for a measured dose, regularly. I happen to be on a weed fast at the moment, but outside that periodic cleansing (as I do with every substance I consume to insure it is beneficial and non-addictive...caffeine and food especially) do the very smallest maintenance dose I can.

I rarely get stoned...those times are with friends at a home party for recreation, an entirely different matter altogether.

As with you Alexei, I know dozens of successful professionals who would NEVER admit using drugs around anyone who might be like our resident sheople posting above...never know when one of 'em would turn them in for it and destroy their lives.

Dozens? Add my client base into it, nationwide, and it is hundreds. Expand to their fellow-travelling friends and family? Thousands.

Thousands that I have two-degrees of separation from alone! Silent because of this rabid idiocy that started with a combination of marketing nylon rope and woodpulp paper, and a strong desire to keep people from discovering the wonderful abundant positive uses for this very natural of plants...and true FREEDOM (of thought, at the very least!).

Rabid idiocy not unlike the FIRST prohibition where we learned that a personal-use law turned normal people into outlaws. NOW it is entrenched rabid idiocy...funding an entire arm of the new military-style police force from our wonderfully benign Federal Government reaching forcefully into our personal lives.

Legalize it NOW.

Cheers!
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Erikto
Member
Username: Erikto

Post Number: 533
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So those 4$ mini bottles of rotgut sold in pretty much every corner store I've seen in Michigan, those are sold with the intent that they will be gently consumed by social drinkers who do not like to get drunk?
I am also surprised by the assumption voiced that various 12 step/ X-Anonymous programs are the only way to clean up. I wonder if there is any non-partisan data available pertaining to success rates from various approaches to cleaning up. At least 2 12-steppers I know simply fell/ jumped right back off that wagon. One even went as far as 'confronting' people from their (very recent) past, blaming people who had nothing to do with their habit for not personally having dragged them off to some support group. This person had worse habits than most people around them, including junk, and they copped a very superior during the brief time before they got back into 'the life'. I was being gender-neutral in that case. If the 12 steps work for a person, great. It's not necessarily the only solution, and, to borrow from William S. Burroughs, who lived to a ripe old age, "ain't nothin' come with a guarantee". I am lucky to have never gotten caught up in hard drug addiction (although I am one of those degenerate smokers standing outside the building or bar, on the coldest days and nights) but I have seen it take over some really nice people. I also know people closer to my parents age who like hard drugs that I'd never touch, but they still work for a living.
Furthermore, the vast majority of drug arrests in the U.S.A. are for marijuana possession, and not other drugs. This strongly suggests these people, who would not have otherwise had a criminal record, are not criminals by any definition beyond having been caught with pot. Despite alarmist claims from politicians about Canadian pot, the vast majority of American weed is domestic. As for people growing their own legal weed, I am sure many would as a hobby, just as some people brew their own beer, or smoke the rawest, purest tobacco they can find. Compare that to Budweiser and Marlboro's sales.
Finally, isn't alcohol implicated in about half of America's homicides? I haven't seen the figure for a long time, but I am quite sure it was around 50%. For the record, I rather enjoy drinking beer and would not want to see any new restrictions on booze.
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 162
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathinozarks-

Maybe I did mis-understand you. My apologies. I am defending Beavis (LOL). As I said, although he is not responsible for his beginning, he is responsible for pulling himself out of his present state. There have been some very great posts since my last post. There have been some major cognitions!! It's like you all grew up or something right in this thread.

Gannon-

You are very bright....very philosophic....but understandable.

Citylover-

You have good intentions....and a good heart.

Beavis-

Beaners at University and Pontiac Rd. has a deal that if you but any coffee beverage, you get the scone of your choice for $1.00. I like Beaners better than Starbucks. I have to keep reading. There are some very good points here....except after the first sip of alcohol, you begin to feel high. So, it's ALL about getting loaded no matter what drug you use....and, alcohol IS a drug. Except, I have found that you can drive better on pot....even though you drive a little slower (LOL)
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Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8795
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lady,

Seems like every time we talk openly and honestly, those who are willing learn and grow some.

That's what I LOVE about this place...seldom can you get into this sort of conversation in public in real time.


Plus, I am lousy at verbal debate...
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8797
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It does NOT have to be about getting loaded...but one HAS to wonder about how this stuff is amply provided by nature, some easier to access than others.

Simple fermentation of a mix usually for making bread or some grape juice...picking a plant then drying and/or curing it...IF there is a God, He seems willing to allow us some social loosening agent, but seems to want US to learn our limits and consume in moderation.
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Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8799
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With THAT laid out, it is MUCH harder to gain caffeine in distilled doses from the coffee bean than smoking weed or tobacco...or even making beer or wine.

I consider a good cup of coffee a 'gift from the gods' as well, for that very reason, I mean WHO was the first to realize they had to roast the bean before grinding it up and finding a way to pass boiling or steamed water through it?!

We take so many things for granted in our modern world...yet seem to want to battle out the minutiae.

I have NO argument against tobacco consumed in it's raw form, without the agents introduced by the cigarette industry, either, although that is not one of my choices!
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 2192
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As my buddy Jack Herer says:

Stoned drivers do not cause traffic fatalities...they just miss their exits

(Message edited by dabirch on March 26, 2007)
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Blort
Member
Username: Blort

Post Number: 101
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentlemen said:
"No, it would be hypocritical if I said it was OK to get drunk and not high. I am saying that you can drink and not be drunk. Can you smoke pot and not get high? I guess, but don't you think most people who smoke pot DO IT TO GET HIGH? Tons of people drink every day and don't get drunk.

I don't base my entire opinion on my one-time experience. I also base it on many others I have known whose lives have been ruined by drugs and they started with pot.

I can't think of anyone who used drugs and their life got better. Do you think the act of wanting to be intoxicated is a sign of a well-adjusted person? It seems like a crutch to me. If you dig it, fine. I just don't think making it legal accomplishes anything positive in the long run."


This is complete bullshit. What is wrong with you, you don't really think like this do you? If you do, that's scarey that this kind of mindset is out there.

- Yes you are a hypocrite. You can smoke and get a slight buzz, and you can drink to get a slight buzz. What difference does it make.You can drink yourself stupid as well, yet that's acceptable?

By your logic it should therefore be against the law to consume alcohol for the purpose of getting drunk. A person shouldn't legally be allowed to have more than 2 drinks per day. Am I right.

You can't think of anyone who used drugs and their life got better? Are you sure? You don't know ONE sucessful person who has even been drunk?

Alcohol use = drug use. Alcohol IS a drug, and a very dangerous one. Pot has never killed anyone, and it's not a gateway drug. That's a myth.

I started with alcohol long before I ever touched weed, so obviously alcohol is the gateway drug.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 303
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Alcohol is the great leveler. It makes you my equal" Frank Sinatra to Bing Crosby in the movie classic "High Society".

Another fine quote from same movie:

Uncle Willie the morning after the big party:

"History teaches us days like this are best spent in bed".

Gotta love the 1950's crowd!

Not much to this post, I just was thinking about the movie! Thought I'd share :-)
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2228
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course pot is a gateway drug.You ask any junkie crack head meth freak pill popping dilaudid shooting person and they are gonna tell you they started with alcohol and marijuana.It is just a fact. It is as if some of you don't believe there can be more than one gateway substance.Alcohol because of it's easy availability is certainly a gateway as well; but so is pot.

Not everyone that smokes pot goes onto harder drugs.But almost everyone that is into hard drugs started with drinking and smoking pot.

As for why alcohol is legal........who the hell knows, it is. Deal with it. Marijuana is illegal. So the very culture of pot dealing and getting high is much more akin to dealing heroin and getting high on that then it is to alcohol.

Marijuana dealers are as vicious and deadly as any illegal drug dealers they will,and have killed for money. And that makes it a hell of a lot different than alcohol.And it makes it more likely that one would go onto harder drugs if they were inclined because they had already been exposed to the culture.

The scenario would be something like this: I like smoking pot.I want to try something stronger.The person I get pot from knows someone that can get me cocaine or heroin..........My drinking buddies aint gonna have that info.

I am not defending abusive drinking or disagreeing with those of you that question why alcohol is accepted_ it is _ that is they way things are.

Erikto as the main debater here with Gannon regarding twelve step groups I never said they were the only path to recovery.I did say that they are the most successful. Twelve step groups do not keep statistics.And what I mean by successful is even if eighty out of one hundred falter twenty will have long term abstinence and you will not find that anywhere else.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2146
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alexei289, maybe you just think that the people you profess to be successful and smoke pot are at the top of their game. Maybe they could be even more successful if they weren't smoking the pot. Ever think about that?

Also, what do you know of their home lives. Maybe the pot has made them poor parents or poor husbands. You don't really know how successful they are. They're just showing you a side of them that they want you to see. In addition, that paragraph that you wrote about me giving my kids ritalin makes no sense at all.

I find it interesting how you, Alexei289, and others who favor the legalization of marijuana keep throwing up alcohol in the argument. My argument against the legalization of pot has nothing to do with me being in favor of alcohol. Pot, in my opinion, is a drug that should stay illegal. The headaches associated with making pot legal will be more than the ones we have now with it being illegal.

I question any of you on this forum who smoke pot. As Perfectgentleman said, those who smoke pot are using it as a crutch to make up for some deficiency in their lives. If all is well in your lives you wouldn't need pot to calm your nerves, or to put you in whatever state you claim pot puts you in. Pot is not a harmless drug, and for anyone who thinks it is physically harmless and a victimless crime, are simply fooling themselves.

(Message edited by royce on March 26, 2007)
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8804
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I turned MY dealer back from selling coke.

He and I talked about it at length when he was considering doing it, since some of his clients were requesting it. I related my experiences from the middle eighties...what I learned firsthand about how that substance affects the human psyche, and how his clients would be a different type...at least after a while. I warned him specifically to NOT do any of it while it was in his possession.

Six or seven months later, he's looking ragged and we have a heart-to-heart conversation...where he told me how right I was about everything. Everything.


We prayed about it, and the draw to do any more completely left him, his clients went away, and he was back to only dealing in the more benign substance.

Now he says I saved his life. I know that is not correct, the One Upstairs did it...if anything I was a conduit.


Once again, CL, you are close, but not fully correct.

God is the most successful at getting people off abusing substances, people, and benign things like food and caffeine.

He just doesn't flash his statistics around...no need to boast, I guess!!

Sometimes He can get through with the twelve step groups, but people have been gaining success with abusing substances LONG before Bill W. came to his senses and started the group so people can work together anonymously.






The LIE about the harm of marijuana and other natural substances is the gateway.

It is about concepts, not substances.

Yes, some substances grab the human psyche much more quickly and powerfully...but being addicted to television for your comfort, or going to food when stressed, or chewing your nails is part of the exact same mere human condition.

YOU read that as my equating television with crack or heroin, nothing could be further from the truth...I fully understand the electro-chemical response difference between them, but will weigh heavily against the LEGAL addictions, since nearly nobody discusses them...and we need the exact same help to gaining control over them after we've yielded control TO them at some point.

They all tickle the nervous system in ways that each of us need in SMALL doses...but since we nearly never seem to learn when enough is enough, each of us gets out-of-control with something in life. Some with everything.


This MAY be simply a condition inherent to the human machine, some weakness that is designed to bring us to our knees...calling out to the One Who Made Us for help!

AFTER that, when the mere human nature is allowed to become strengthened against these bad habits, occasionally one can return to using them in moderation. It is most important that anyone be diligent against returning to things they KNOW they have a weakness for, but AS important they fulfill that hole in their psyche with something good so the craving is lessened to something more benign...I just don't happen to think hanging around a bunch of people where at least a portion remain obsessing about how much they miss some substance is totally a positive thing.

I'd rather they join a group and talk about what they can DO, not what they can no longer do. Seems counter productive to linger on something for which you know you have a weakness.

I still cannot have candy or cookies around the house, because all of my life I've turned to them...and I feel like the Taliban denying myself some simple pleasures that others enjoy.


Biggest difference? I don't go around telling everyone that they must stop using candy as a comfort food...although I do encourage better dietary habits.



You just don't get it, CL, and apparently you won't ever let yourself get it, at least not through that anger. Pride can get in the way of wisdom dawning upon an individual...funny how you will now track me from thread to thread nipping at my heels.


You're as bad as Karl used to be...he still tries but is mostly impotent. Pretty funny.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2230
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There you go preaching again Gannon. I am doing well, I am clean.I had a serious horrible soul killing drug addiction and I conquered it. I have been sober a very long time.Long enough to not be threatened by those that seek ways other than the steps. I will however call out bullshit.And claiming the steps are a crutch is no different then me calling a devout christian an addict or even you Gannon with your continual reliance on God. It just seems to me you would share in anyone's path if it was good including me without making qualifications.

You could not be more wrong in your stereotyping of what goes on at meetings.That is the typical response from someone with limited exposure.I am certainly not saying you need a twelve step group.But I really wish you would stop saying anything about people that do_ again what difference does it make to you?

You believe some can return to moderate using.The true alcoholic and drug addict don't have that luxury.It is a russian roulette. I have met many people wiser than the both of us and I believe what they tell me.And I have seen many people die ; moderation is not an option for the admitted addict alcoholic. And they all thought they could moderate. It is like the movie murderball with the wheelchair athletes every damn one of em thinks they are the one that is gonna walk again. Please keep those thoughts to yourself thay are very dangerous to a recovering person.

As for the history of the recovery movement I am quite knowledgable.What you did not mention or maybe did not know is that the reason AA has persevered is a singleness of purpose.It is about alcoholism and nothing else. No politics no opinions on legalizing marijuana or raising or lowering the drinking age_ no opinions on anything_ just recovery thru the steps and a higher power. Why you taunt with you little comment about stats is silly and confusing.I stated very clearly twelve step groups don't keep stats.They obviously rely on god or a higher power.What other groups prior to AA failed in was becoming involved in religion and politics

And please don't equate wathcing t.v. with shooting heroin.That is silly.One can kill you in an instant.It is so obviously self destructive that to compare it is not valid.

So you stopped you dealer from selling harder stuff. So fucking what.If I read correctly he actually did sell the harder stuff and saw that it was no good and went back to the "good" stuff_ are we supposed to be impressed?

Gannon the truth is you don't know much about me at all.You certainly don't perceive me very accurately.My two points on this thread have been Beavis is full of shit and to anyone that has been an addict and then stopped and grown spiritually can spot it a mile away_ I have seen and heard it so many damn times.

My other point is that you to turn things on you don't get it.I t is very simple .Some people use the twelve steps to recover.They may be sober for 10 years and go to one mtg a week or 40 yrs and go five times a week. They are being true to themselves and it should not matter one damn bit to you.If as you say you have this god love within you you should simply rejoice in their new found way and leave it at that.
Finally Gannon there is an air of scorn and belittlement in many of your posts on this thread. You made a comment about how I might need a groups for my anger, you end your most recent thread with the words pretty funny........is that the godliness working thru you? If so you can keep it.It does not seem very "god" like to me.
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Hardliner
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Username: Hardliner

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

good godfrey! 276 replies in 3 volumes? there must be some pot smokers in here! ;)
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1931
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mostly dry drunks & clean druggies
displaying their need to be controlling

:-)
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 444
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 8:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I question any of you on this forum who smoke pot. As Perfectgentleman said, those who smoke pot are using it as a crutch to make up for some deficiency in their lives. If all is well in your lives you wouldn't need pot to calm your nerves, or to put you in whatever state you claim pot puts you in. Pot is not a harmless drug, and for anyone who thinks it is physically harmless and a victimless crime, are simply fooling themselves.

------------------------------ ------------------

Couldnt the very same thing be said for people who want a drink after work to unwind, calm their nerves or to put them in a more relaxed *state* sheesh!

People are free to choose thier own *crutches* be it alcohol pot, food, whatever.

I find it very amusing that people are debating which *crutch* is better or acceptable
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8806
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually Lilpup, it is my desire to show that escaping that 'controlling' and heading towards true freedom is the preferred path.



I have not said that twelve steps do not work. I say they ONLY work completely when the individual allows the Spirit to flow (and even then, the person can be filled with the Spirit and choose to return to their bad behavior). Again, my words of acknowledgement of that fact...proven by the statistics that CL boasts...are somehow missed by him.


CL,
I only contrasted your comments on those statistics because as I said, God doesn't publish His numbers...but has the best success rate of those who come honestly to HIM directly.

The Twelve Step groups are not unlike organized religion, an indirect approach which may introduce the concept of God but curiously gets in the way of (or hinders) those directly encountering Him...by simply being an organization that requires perpetuation by the very people they seek to help and guide.

(The guide should always be willing to leave their charge when the path is found again, and forward momentum is acknowledged. It is up to the NEXT guide should that individual wander from their path again, returning to the old guide is returning in a loop back to the beginning of the path...no forward progress is attained!)

Since they NEED people reliant upon THEM, or for whatever reason...and it may simply be myopia or misunderstanding of the nature of the Spirit's flow in this age...they stunt their member's spiritual growth by NOT going that next step towards inner strength and mere reliance directly upon the One Who Made All Things.



I understand people being true to themselves by going to the group week after week after week after week after week after week after week, ad nauseum. Can you NOT see that is not dissimilar to simply going into some church building with the same periodicity...yet somehow never encountering (or diving into) the wonderful flow that emanates from the throne of the Maker?

Again, it is simple mere human nature...we rely upon that we can see, hear, feel, smell, and taste...yet somehow God is found just outside of all of those senses.


I fully believe He does that because we'd go instantly insane if we encountered Him directly...I don't think the mere human machine can handle bumping into its Maker without short-circuiting. Not yet, at least.


(If you cannot see how TV is killing entire populations slowly, then we've another discussion entirely. I said there is a difference in how quickly these affect the humans who use them, and also how powerfully. I did NOT equate them, I said they tickle the nervous system in curiously similar ways, NOT the same socket/plug that Beavis described, but the 'need' and 'desire', perhaps just for escape from this troublesome world.)


Keep pointing out those contrasts in my 'Godliness' (whatever that means), CL, you are helping prove another of my points: no mere human can EVER be perfect! Heh.

You take my words harshly, when they are ALL encouragement...even that call to 'use again' in that other thread was meant as a joke because I could never willingly suggest anyone actually do so (especially one who clearly had trouble with a substance in the past)...it is absurd.

But again, subtlety is as lost on you as it is on me!!


Cheers, I've GOT to get to work.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8663
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed Cleo,

The problem with so many is that they determine which crutch is acceptable based upon which our government says is acceptable.

The concept of right or wrong or similarities between the two go out the window because our fallible government determined that one is OK and the other is bad.
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Wfw
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Username: Wfw

Post Number: 196
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miss Cleo, why does it have to be a crutch? Can't it just be fun? In my experience it's been a fun, social event, something to share with friends and have some laughs. I question anyone who puts such a low priority on fun.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 447
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I never said it was a crutch, I was using Perfectgentlemens words, he refers to it as a crutch
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 305
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yay Wfw!!!! You are the first person here in a long time to equate a buzz with FUN!!!!

This makes my day brighter. I'm smiling now. Yes, I agree Wfw, anytime I have experienced an alcohol buzz or other it is when I am happy and having FUN! And you know what? The little buzz is great!

**Perfectg and all you others who will pick apart my post and jump on me for not being able to have fun without a buzz:
My post does not indicate that I am unable to have fun without a buzz. I have most of my fun in life without a buzz.

I'm going outside now to plant a rose bush.
Dogwoods are blooming, color is everywhere. Just a perfect world I am lucky to live in!

Thanks again, Wfw!

(Message edited by kathinozarks on March 27, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 475
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After two days of grinding on 1920s flint-town varnish I have calmed down some.... You can burn up a lot of frustration/anger/energy on these type of floors. Ask alexei289 about that one. So I guess I will start where I left off.

Perfectgentlemans points-
The question is whether to legalize drugs whose sole purpose is to become impaired. If they were made legal, would they be required to pass FDA approval? Could the manufacturers be sued for wrongful death similar to the makers of Vioxx? If not, is that fair to "legitimate" drug companies who ARE held liable if someone is injured or dies? If so, how long before the lawyers would sue the makers and providers out of business?- Good point. No idea there. Even if they were deemed un-responsible the legal jargon/congress time spent on this would cover the good portion of a decade.

If they were taxed at a high rate, wouldn't that still mean that people might steal to support their habit? Would public funds be spent to rehabilitate and support the addicts that would result? Would the children of drug abusers be in peril and end up on drugs themselves if drugs were easier to get?-
The present cost of street drugs is so much more than there actual worth. If they were allowed to be grown/produced legally they could be taxed 3000% and still be cheaper than present prices.
There would be more than enough money left to start a fund for such addicts. As for the last point no arguments there. I don't know.

I assume that minors would be barred from purchasing drugs so wouldn't there still be plenty of legal cases clogging the courts in regard to those kids who broke the law? What about operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated, wouldn't that be illegal? Would it still be legal to be fired from your job if you tested positive for drug use? What if you were a physician or an airline pilot, would they be allowed to use?
Operating intoxicated should be determined with a standard sobriety test not a blood one. Same thing with your job if your so high that it is obvious its hurting your job performance yes your fired. Most responsible people can separate work and play. As for the children in courts thing- good point any argument on my behalf would be pure speculation.

Would any self-respecting, mainstream company actually sell intoxicating drugs? Would you go to Walgreens for your weekly supply? Can you imagine going up to the corner store where you know the workers and the customers and going up to the checkout with your weekly supply of crystal meth?

Do some research on merck pharms. They are responsible for cocaine and heroin. Also you can go to the pharmacy presently and get your weeks supply of crystal meth. It's called desoxn its given to "extreme" ADD cases.

Would all of the drug pushers go home and be solid citizens or would they sell "harder" and more lethal versions of the drugs that were made legal?

Labs have been hard at work on this since the turn of the century.
There really isn't any more powerful drugs to be made and there is no way the street could compare with the purity from a legal lab.
Anything else I did'nt refute I agree with at least partially. You at least looked at both sides of the argument. Your input is welcome.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 476
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

miss cleo said-
I find it very unfair that you can drink the night away, go into work probably still hung over and not an eye will blink BUT smoke a joint on your own time on the weekend and be given a drug test and be fired for something you did 2 days ago.

Whos to say the doctor or lawyer or who ever working for you isnt hung over or having withdrawls because they missed their lunch hour drink?

Get WITH it people! Pot is way more tame than alcohol, coke, heroin, etc....


It's this hypocrisy I fight tooth and nail. I can go eat some E, smoke weed, sit at home and chill with GF and really do nothing destructive. I will show up the next day at work usually happier and more energetic than usual. I tell co-workers what I did I get fired and glared at. If I come in hungover and looking like shit ALL I have to do is tell them I had a night of booze and promiscuis sex and there will be high-fives all aroud. SOMETHING IS HORRIBLY WRONG WITH THAT.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2232
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FYI Beavis Desoxyn is used only for narcolepsy in Mich.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 477
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CityLovers points-
Saying most of them are sorry circles of people talking about the drugs they can't do anymore...............WHAT FUCKING CRAP that is again I expect better from you. What that tells me is you had very limited exposure to twelve step groups_ sure there are some like that and whole fucking lot of others that are not.

I will agree that not all of them are like this. True N/A meetingS are usually more open minded. However most AA meetings are sad to say the least. A "breakthrough" usually involves LOTS of crying and hugging random strangers. This happens because said people have alienated all their friends and loved ones from stupidity. IF THATS NOT SAD AND SORRY I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS! For those of you in doubt look up AA attend a meeting then get back to me.

CL- I agree with you not all users are addicts

Thats all I wanted. I know you were agreeing with gannon not me but good enough.

CL-Strength in numbers_ it aint gonna come from Gannons arrogant preaching.

You have to understand there are people out there that don't want or need to be part of a HERD. I feel loved and have TRUE freinds to talk to should the need arise. Never been truly suicidal either. I don't need or want this.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 478
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you seroius CL? While I don't doubt that is about the best use for meth you are going to find That would easily fry someones brain. I guess its better than falling asleep at the wheel.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 480
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Acording to lady,
Beavis is fragile. And, remember that it wasn't his fault in the beginning. BUT, he can come out of this. Be gentle. He's just a man.

Not fragile, that would imply my will is easy to break. Confused? maybe. I would even except partially naive because you have been on this earth far longer than me. As far as blame, please explain how activly looking for drugs, and crossing the line that could land me in prison for a few dollars is anything but my fault.
My categories

1. useless and stupid drugs that are nothing but dangerous-
Any Amphetamine
Any form of cocaine
Most pharmaceutical opiates
Ketamine
PCP
benzodiazepines

2. Neutral. Used for recreation with little chance for addiction.
Marijuana
'shrooms
Lsd
3. used sparingly and with caution are more or less neutral
Alcohol
Heroin- NO NEEDLES
schedule 3 opiates
4. Drugs that are benificial to mind and spirit with almost no chance of addiction
Mescaline
Dmt concoctions
MDMA not "ecstasy"
This category is what conflicts me as much damage as I have done with drugs these have always helped me "see the light" Maybe because I take these for the expierience not just to push the pleasure button. Before I discovered number 3 I was on the road to death QUICK. Boozing and coking it up every chance I got. The first time I did MDMA it cracked my head wide open. I realized I had blocked out guilt for 3 years. The next day I called everybody I knew and apologized for something. I finally accepted my mom's death and the circumstances surrounding it. I learned how stupid it was to get fucked up on booze. I would laugh at my friends "have fun with your empty pockets and hangover tomorrow". I didn't touch anything but psychedelics for awhile. Then predictably the bingeing came. Then I quit. Then my best friend died a preventable death. With him went my strength and my "insight partner". I am planning a mescaline outing with someone I beleive to be very like-minded. It's been awhile. When I can get back the strength I once had you won't have to worry anymore lady. I just can't go the AA/NA route. It is to extreme for me. You have to accept that all drugs are bad and you are powerless 2 things I am against with every fiber of my being.

(Message edited by beavis1981 on March 28, 2007)
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 164
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Look, guys. All I want right now is a Grade A Prime Porterhouse Steak, med. and a bottle of Charles Krug, 1965 Cabernet Sauvignon. Can I have the "whine"....NO. Why? Because I am an alcoholic and if I take one drink it will lead back to drinking every day. DRAGNESS!!! I LOVE GOOD WINE!! I just can't take the chance. Forget pot. It's about the wine.

Beavis-

You really should go and unload this at a first step table. I will go with you if you want. You are not naive or any of this crap that you said you were. These are all excuses. You are as bright and as strong as any of us. This is why you can handle all of this stuff that you are doing. I can't keep talking to you and you keep getting high. It is very frustrating for me. By the way, just because I am older does not mean that I am all that mature. I am actually a big kid. Before my grandmother died she told my mother that I was the only one that she worried about because I WAS such a big kid. I have not yet revealed my identity. If we meet for coffee you will see who I am. There is a whole other side that you don't know.

(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 27, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 482
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ribeye and killians here. See thats what I'm talking about. Good wine or your fav beer with good food is about the taste and therefore the expierience of eating not the buzz. But you know you better than I so I guess keep fighting the good fight.
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 165
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe when I get up in my seventies or eighties. You know, I just can't see a good porterhouse with a snort of heroin....heron, excuse me. Wine, that's what it's all about.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 448
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went to NA for awhile, too much pot and booze . They tried to tell me I could never have either again. Guess what? they were wrong. I am able to go out to dinner and have a drink or wine and not turn into an alcoholic. I am able to smoke a joint once in a while and not turn into a feigening maniac. I can sit out on my deck in the summer and enjoy a beer or 2

I know it works for some, but I didnt see it as an all or nothing thing. For me it was getting a grasp on moderation.
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Beavis1981
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Post Number: 483
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For what it's worth I'm sober now and have been since saturday night. I need my brains about me for work. I take my trade seriously. However, that will probaly change tonight. I said I wasn't going to any but you know how that goes. As for my first step Thats coming in about 3 months. I will either be going to colorado or florida away from my influences and hook-ups. Alcohol has never been a big problem for me so I think relocation might do me some good. I appreciate your wanting to help but that particular method is not for me. Through our shout match I see you are one of the rare people on this earth that does care about others. I appreciate that but you have to draw a line between helping other and hurting yourself. Trust me you don't have the time/energy to set me straight. Once again sorry for the lashing out. Not only do I want to kick my own ass for that but it furthers the thinking I'm just another one to afraid to quit. Why I'm afraid is another story.

(Message edited by beavis1981 on March 27, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only thing that heroin improves is my relationship. I am normally withdrawn and cold. Under the influences of opiates I become super-cuddly and open. My girl absolutely loves this.
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Brightmoor
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Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

a good source of info on this argument at
http://www.utilitarian.org
I am fairly libertarian on this issue
The money that disappears from US economy because of black market is harmful to all citizens.
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Ladyinabag
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Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miss Cleo-

God bless you. I wish that I could say the same.

Beavis-

The time will come when you will have to make a decision. This will be your bottom. Until then, enjoy your highs....if you can....and, when "heron" addicts can't score, 99% of the time they turn to alcohol. It is called replacing one addiction for another. I guess you don't want to go out for coffee.

(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 29, 2007)
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Gannon
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Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lady,

Again you are assuming that everyone is the same!


Why can you NOT get it that some can self-medicate and still be productive, useful members of society?!


You are stuck in a mental box, I'm sure it is comfortable for you in there...but also certain there is NOT room for two.
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Citylover
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Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

C,mon Gannon your not gonna tell us Beavis is "self medicating" .......he is is self destucting. Anyone that does heroin is very self destructive. I don't disagree that people can use moderately and even beneficially.......but Beavis aint that person.


I agree ladyinabag is being a bit rigid.The truth is this and it is very simple.If one is an addict or an alcoholic it will catch up to them sooner or later.They are either gonna stop or not.No preaching no cajoling no shaming is going to "make" someone stop; they either will or they won't.
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Ladyinabag
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Post Number: 177
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Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon-

I said 99%....DUH!! By the way, I have found this to be true for every heroin addict that I have ever met. I said 99% because I am sure that there are some that did not start drinking.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 307
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Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL, do you know Beavis personally, or by posts only?
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Citylover
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Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What difference does it make Kathy? He has said on this thread that he is looking forward to doing heroin.He has said he "functions" better under the influence of opiates. If all that is true then I don't need to know Beavis to know that is a sure path to self destruction.Only the most callow, naive, unknowing person would disagree with me.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 314
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cl, I'm callow, naive, unknowing person!
tee hee. (It made me chuckle to type this like I was at an AA meeting. I hope I didn't offend anyone.) Anyhoo,

I don't disagree with you, I really thought you might know him outside of this place. You know, Thursay nights and social things and whatever.

I couldn't think of a way to type my question that wouldn't sound like I was attacking, so I just typed. It's hard because there are now facial expressions or tones of voice or anything to go on. Just typed words. Just thought I'd ask because maybe you had more insight in a face to face relationship with B.

(Message edited by kathinozarks on March 30, 2007)
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Gannon
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only heroin user I ever knowingly was around was my old boss at Birmingham Autosound...he and his wife would take a weekend off a month. He was one of the MOST productive people I've ever met...and unique BY FAR in many ways.


CL, I agree with what you said in that post two jumps back...especially since opiates oddly plug that natural synapse socket so well that MOST people cannot handle it.


I am NOT saying I can, heck I noticed with Tylenol-3 that it would be a problem to go ANY purer up (or down) the opiatic family tree! I'll never forget my doctor's reply when I told him to STOP prescribing them to me after a horrible accident on Telegraph in 1982 (similar to Fnemecek's recent one, actually)...he said, "Two million addicts can't be wrong!" (I might be off on the number, but it was still pretty damn funny, I just LOVE my doctor)


One never can know another's body chemistry, personal history, or spiritual enlightenment...there is a chance that Beavis needs this after being raised on television and having his noggin mapped in harmony with that 15,750 Hz ringing tube. They've PROVEN it causes different than normal brain growth and wave patterns when in front of children...and we've used the damn things as babysitters for HOW long?!



MOST of us also suffer from growing and living in a 60 Hz resonant antennae, too. (That would be our electrical grid that we plug everything into, paying monthly for the priviledge to a company called Edison, when he was an enemy of the fellow who actually invented AC, Nikola Tesla.)


H-m-m-n-n, remembering the fellow who did environmental chordal studies...what chord is built upon frequencies centered upon 7.8, 60, and 15,750...and then again 12, 60, and 15,750 Hz?!


7.8 is the OLD heartbeat of the planet, 12 is where we are today.


All of this self-medication stuff might just be a desperate attempt to tone down the difference between OUR body resonance and the environment upon which we exist.


Sounds good to me. (heh)
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 489
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathi-Both cl and lady are convinced I am where they used to be. Therefore they know me better than me and what I'm going to do before I do it. I stopped self-destructing years ago. Learned how to fight the urge for coke and amps. Have not had either in 2 years. Binged on ecstasy, stopped, then bought a test kit. Same thing with opiates so I developed a system for dodging addiction. Lessons learned. As I type I am at the 48hr mark with no opiates. I have $50 in my pocket, xanax in my drawer and bottle of codeine syrup. I could consult either of these if I was so hooked I needed to "score". Taking the down with the up is what keeps me grounded. "If you can't handle the down, don't go up." Most addicts work very hard to avoid the down. Doing this backs yourself into a corner thats when self-destruction starts. Despite what people will tell you withdrawls are not that bad. at all. I will smoke weed and cigs for the next 2-3 days then back to the hard stuff. Max 3 days on, 4-5 days off with NO needles. Thats my "system" pretty simple huh? The only time I have been close to a overdose I was well aware of it. Probaly ingested the equivilent of 450-650mgs morphine in one night.

Am I an "addict"- yes but at the most basic level my problem is with instant gratification not neccesarily the drugs I use to feed this addiction

Am I self destructing?- no It's more like I'm treading water. I'm not drowning but I'm not going anywhere either. Eventually I have to swim for the shore, get a lifeline, or quietly slip under. But for now the water's refreshing. I don't beleive in option 2 because if somebody pulls me out who's to say I won't be back in the same lake tomorrow? And I fought off option 3 before. That leaves option 1 and like I said right now the waters fine come on in.
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Beavis1981
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Post Number: 490
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CLs points-
He has said he "functions" better under the influence of opiates

People use alcohol in moderation at social events for the same reason. It opens them up a little bit. Use in this capacity is really the only purposeful/non-destructive way to consume alcohol. 2-6 drinks just in case you wondered. Coincedence?

Then there is this gem-
He has said on this thread that he is looking forward to doing heroin

Looking forward to something I consider fun? Why would anybody do that? Totally defies logic!
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Gannon
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Post Number: 8846
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beavis,

You MUST understand that you are unique, and that to invite others who may NOT have your strengths may be dooming them to certain drowning...to carry your analogy further, how do you know they can swim?!


Cheers, dude, deeply.
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Kathinozarks
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Post Number: 315
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't make such a big thing about "the water's fine come on in". It's just a saying.
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 492
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon- The last line was more of a taunt than a invitation. However for the sake of conversation I will complete the analogy. Sink or swim depends on the individual/situation. With proper drug education- How to spot an overdose, pill ID, what to do in case of a overdose, how much to take, and what not ot combine. You could start the person out in shallow waters and work their way to the deep end. They would at least then be able to realize when they are over their heads. At which point they could stand up and walk out. Present drug education i.e. dare/just say no is like throwing somebody off a boat with only 1 water wing. It might keep you afloat for a while but as soon as you lose the strength to wrestle with it (or you make it past just say no) you drown. Quick.
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Beavis1981
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Post Number: 493
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pretty much kath.
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Gannon
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is NO water wing with 'just say no', that is why it is the foundation for the Gateway LIE.


I'm with you on this Beavis, this conversation just took another curious mobius twist.

May your day deliver all that it should, and much more than you expect or deserve!!

(that goes for the rest of us, too!)
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 179
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beavis-

Don't be confused. I have never been where you are and wouldn't ever let myself get that far into opiates. I consider opiates a MAJOR cop-out. Sorry, and with all due respect, I am not that weak. Alcohol and Pot. I dabbled in other stuff but didn't like any of it. I am drug-free and happy. This is where I am at and will not apologize or make excuses for any of it. In 1997, I broke my ankle and had to have surgery. The person across from me was on a morphine drip. I was on Ibuprophen 800. No thank you. And, just one other point I would like to make. My best friend was diagnosed with colon cancer. He didn't want to wear a bag. He had himself put on a morphine drip. Two weeks later he died in the hospital....from the cancer???? I think not!! AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!! THE MORPHINE DRIP!!!!!!!!



(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 30, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 494
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So basically your better than me because you think opiates are a cop out. Yet your friend succumbed to the ultimate cop-out via morphine???? Your not that weak but marijuana and weed "destroyed" your life? Lady I have not questioned your lifestyle or happiness in awhile. I beleive you are happy. But you bounce back and forth between saying prayers for me then Calling me weak. I know what and who I am. Good luck to you. I'm not getting into it again with you. I've made my peace.
Buenas noches!
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Citylover
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Post Number: 2236
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't be silly lady.When used for medicinal reason there is nothing wrong with narcotics as prescribed.

Gannon you got it backwards.There is nothing unique about Beavis if hes is telling the truth about things. I can hear his story at any number of twelve step mtgs it is very common.

Beavis I have not called you a drug addict or anything.I have commented on your alleged behavior. I have called you out on some bullshit as well. You are gonna do what you do. Justify things all you want.The only person it matters to when it all comes down is you.I hate to be the bearer of obvious news but the world goes on with or without you or I taking drugs or not taking drugs_ eventually people move on. They might think about us once in a while but even that fades away.
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Ladyinabag
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Post Number: 183
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beavis-

I do pray for you, but I still think that narcotics are a cop-out. I like to be in control. I am not that weak to succumb to opiates. I REFUSE!! DIG?? I WILL NOT!! RE-DIG?? My friend just didn't want to wear a bag. Talk about the repercussions of vanity. You can look at this as a challenge if you want to. You are a coward not to quit. NO GONADS!! (Go Nads. Go Nads. SIS CUM BAH. HIT HIM IN THE HEAD WITH A BIG KIELBASA!!).

(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 30, 2007)
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Beavis1981
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Post Number: 495
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cl as far as "alleged" and "truth" goes I learned a long time ago that if you lie to yourself enough you start to beleive it. That's one of the major steps on the downward spiral of destruction. Eventually your psyche will split and absolve your your accountability with it. I can't live the double-life. Everything posted here is true. As for justifying that would be more why? I been posting what and how. One of my catch phrases is "whatever gets you to sleep tonight". Through this conversation I at least have a better idea where you are coming from. I know it takes A stronger man to overcome. It is far easier to find ways/excuses not to change. As for the obvious news I'm well aware of my insignificance in the big picture. Druggies fade easily because they don't really accomplish much but drugs. Anyways much respect to you, keep fighting the good fight.

Lady- I will give you credit you are smarter than the average bear but that approach is the least likely to invoke a reponse from me.

p.s. Lifes a garden. Dig it!
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Ladyinabag
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Post Number: 187
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 4:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beavis-

"p.s. Life's a garden. Dig it." I'm not a cat....and.... whatever works. Get off the "pity pot". Get clean....NOW. We need you. There is a "greater plan". Don't ask now. Just get clean.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 475
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lady, you ought to know better than anyone here he wont get clean til he hits bottom and is good and ready. Telling him to do so is going to accomplish nothing. Leave him be.
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 190
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miss_cleo.-

I know you are right. But, hope against hope....you never know just what will make them snap to. It could be anything. I can't help it. It just pains me.

(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 31, 2007)
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Miss_cleo
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Post Number: 476
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

((((lady)))) I understand, but ya gotta let it go and consentrate on you!
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Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag

Post Number: 192
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm all right. I got 15 years.
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Beavis1981
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Post Number: 496
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

O...M....G that was a hell of binge! Strung out does not even begin to describe my mental condition!

1. as cl has said over and over I am not unique. THAT MEANS I COULD BE YOUR BROTHER, SON, OR NEPHEW. Wake up people drugs are everywhere whether you ignore them or not. That being said, it has come up a few times I am no smarter or weaker than the average person. Following that logic the populus is ready for full on legalization. The average person will realize what a "cop-out" drugs are. The addicts will either sink deeper or realize the error of there ways. Whatever way you look at it progress will speed up on both sides of the board. "Get busy livin or get busy dying" In a way this banter has accomplished something?
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Ladyinabag
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Post Number: 203
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing that it has accomplished is that I have learned that you don't want to have coffee with me.
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 1283
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you all ruined a good thread
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Ladyinabag
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Post Number: 205
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Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With that said, let's close it down.
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Chitaku
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Post Number: 1286
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Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

legalize it!
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Chitaku
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Post Number: 1294
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH /03/23/drugs.report.ap/index.h tml

check this out
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 520
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

where is the actual list of the substances? BTW There is no such thing as "street methadone" all methadone is phamaceutical of some kind.

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