 
Ericdetfan
Member
Username: Ericdetfan
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 1:29 am: |    |
I have been working since the age of 17 and have almost 5 years of retail electronics experience...Last year in May, I was discharged from the Air Force after with a medical condition after being there only 3 months. When I returned...I could not find a job anywhere. I put in applications with my resume everywhere. I even tried the brand new Best Buy that has opened in Southland mall. Not even a call back in 4 months of looking for a job.. Luckily, I was able to do some odd jobs that were enough to pay my bills. Eventually, I put in an app at Wal-Mart and they hired me. It was not my first choice, but the gave me a job when no one else would..
Not to be rude or anything, but everyone who says wal-Mart is evil or whatever doesn't have room to talk when there are those of us who couldn't find jobs and WM or companies like WM hired us.
I have actually fairly enjoyed working there...I don't feel I am underpaid or being mistreated or anything like that... I don't really know where all these misconceptions came from. I have heard that WM has been accused of making employees work off the clock when actually that is the complete opposite from the truth..It in violation of company policy. There is an ethics video that everyone must watch when hired that explains In most cases both the employee and manager who allowed them to do this are fired. |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 608
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 1:52 am: | |
Ericdetfan: Welcome to the forums.
Actually, testimonials such as that from Ericdetfan isn't at all uncommon during these horrible economic times. I hear similar accounts almost daily. Good people with education, with experience, with good personality, are unemployed and struggling to live. They are often told to just go work at Burger King, or Meijer, or what have you. Don't bet on it by sitting next to the phone, because BK or Meijer ain't calling you. Ericdetfan, thanks for sharing your story. You are right - WalMart gave you a job when nobody else would and that is what matters. |
Christos
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 9:10 am: | |
I don't think ANYONE is against Wal-Mart employees. Ericdetfan, I hope no one gives you shit for working there. As for accusations that Wal-Mart forced workers to work off the clock, not only may it be against thier policy, but against federal and state law. The reason why you had to watch that video is in large part due to the pressure put on them by organizations like wakeupwalmart.com and walmartwatch.org. While I believe they have changed quite a bit for the better recently due to this pressure, they still have a lot to go.
The thing is though Wal-Mart is a big reason (though not the only reason by no means) for this economic downturn. As the largest employer in the world they not only have the greatest influence over the labor market (often creating monopsonies and oligopsonies in local labor markets), BUT thier tactics in lowering the costs of the goods they supply have FORCED companies to move overseas. I've heard stories from manufacturers about how Wal-Mart told them "open up shop in China or you can't sell your goods here."
Whenever people talk about free trade being good because we can export our goods to these other countries. Have you ever thought what these goods are? We aren't exporting cars, consumer goods, or even services anymore (excepts maybe high end financial services). Our two biggest exports are agriculture (the most government subsidized industry in the US) and entertainment (arguably one of the most regulated industries to best benefit business in the US).
Just something to think about. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2494
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 9:50 am: | |
quote:The thing is though Wal-Mart is a big reason (though not the only reason by no means) for this economic downturn. What "economic downturn" are you referring to? Michigan's problems are related to the auto industry, not Wal-Mart, directly or indirectly. The US economy (of which Wal-Mart is certainly a part) isn't in a downturn.
There was an informative article in Fortune a few years back on Wal-Mart's impact as a huge company, full text at http://ufcw1167.com/x_articles /one_nation_undr_wmt.htm |
Christos
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
Its interesting you mention that. The Dow is up, the NASDAQ is okay (though no where NEAR where it was in the late 90s), GDP is going up, and unemployment is low in states that are not Michigan.
However, our trade deficit is at an all time high, and GROWING, and correct me if I am wrong, but isn't median income declining? The middle class is shrinking.
Its getting harder and harder to measure how the economy as a whole is doing.
Thanks for the article link, btw, its an interesting one! |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 1249
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | |
When one of the country's largest employers pays low low wages, it's going to have an impact on the entire workforce. Race to the bottom.
Erikdetfan, I have worked for retail employers who make WalMart look like saints. All work is worthy, it's very good that you found a job and take pride in it. You should be paid more, and you should get health insurance. IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A UNION, you should be able to be and not fear for your life for wanting it. The hard-working employees of WalMart deserve better and more than they are getting.
Working overtime for free after store hours is standard practice in retail. They were embarassed because they got caught is all. It will creep back, wait and see. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 676
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
Ericdetfan: Check Michigan Works website for retail jobs. I found one there and applied for a position at Plum Market in Bham, they kept calling me to interview but I could not make it with my class schedule. Check them out, it may be a step up for you from WM. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4900
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:15 pm: | |
Ericdetfan, welcome to Forum.
So you've read jjaba's assertion about average wages at $10.21 hr. at Wal-Mart, the nation's largest employer, which is $21,236.80 a year for full-time 40 hrs. a week. Thus, an average Wal-Mart wage is around $14,000 USD below USA median gross wage and puts Wal-Mart workers in a class of poverty. Most authors assert that $35,000 is about as low as a worker can go and remain in the middle classes in the USA.
So, can you give us the truth as you see it from inside Wal-Mart? Tell us about your pay envelope and fringe benefit programs, working conditions, guaranteed hours, scheduling, etc., issues raised in this thread. Tell us about your workload, compared to other jobs. Do you think Wal-Mart does set prevailing wages in factories, retail, service industries, transportation, govt., or on the farm?
Thanks.
jjaba, seeking the truth. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 1250
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
Holiday Market in Royal Oak does a lot of hiring. They are expanding and will probably need more people. A job such as a meat cutter is a marketable skill.
But if you like working at WalMart you should stay! And be happy. I hope you prosper.
I met a young man at Home Depot who was a displaced Louisianan (is that a word?). Owned his own business, home, had a future. Swept away. Got hired at HD, was happy for the bump. Good for everybody. As long as nobody is being taken, it's all good, right? |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 612
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 2:18 pm: | |
Oldredfordette: It is sad to see some of these folks from the New Orleans disaster who had their lives practically taken away from them. I can understand that many have built a solid future, like the young man you met at Home Depot. Many businesses are suffering, and it is hard to find jobs. Circuit City have been gradually closing stores all across the country, CompUSA is reportedly going to be doing that too according to recent news reports.
Ericdetfan: Hang in there and stay positive. If the economy turns around, I am confident you can move up to a better job as well. Right now is simply not the time or place to be picky. If WalMart offers jobs - take it, if Home Depot or Lowes offer jobs - take it. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 720
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 2:26 pm: | |
A Fastcompany article about three years ago included a short paragraph that summed up the problem that WalMart presents for me: quote:Wal-Mart has also lulled shoppers into ignoring the difference between the price of something and the cost. Its unending focus on price underscores something that Americans are only starting to realize about globalization: Ever-cheaper prices have consequences. Says Steve Dobbins, president of thread maker Carolina Mills: "We want clean air, clear water, good living conditions, the best health care in the world--yet we aren't willing to pay for anything manufactured under those restrictions." WalMart's business model is completely dependent upon cheap oil and even cheaper overseas labor markets. WalMart is facilitating a massive wealth transfer wherein the American working class is the loser and Third World governments and WalMart shareholders/management are the winners. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 6378
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 2:41 pm: | |
Swingline quoted: "We want clean air, clear water, good living conditions, the best health care in the world--yet we aren't willing to pay for anything manufactured under those restrictions."
Or we think the government is capable of paying for it, at no cost to us.
Or we think someone other than us should pay whatever is necessary to bolster our current wage to a "living wage" level, to salt away enough to pay that wage when we retire (the earlier the better and with COLI's, please) and pay our healthcare costs, whatever they might be regardless of what we do (or don't) do to take care of ourselves. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2496
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 2:52 pm: | |
I think the American working class is a winner. From the Fortune article I linked above, see especially Warren Buffett's comment.quote:By systematically wresting "pricing power" from the manufacturer and
handing it to the consumer, Wal-Mart has begun to generate an
economy-wide Wal-Mart Effect. Economists now credit the company's
Everyday Low Prices with contributing to Everyday Low Inflation, meaning
that all Americans--even members of Whirl-Mart, a "ritual resistance"
group that silently pushes empty carts through superstores--unknowingly
benefit from the retailer's clout. A 2002 McKinsey study, moreover,
found that more than one-eighth of U.S. productivity growth between 1995
and 1999 could be explained "by only two syllables: Wal-Mart." "You add
it all up," says Warren Buffett, "and they have contributed to the
financial well-being of the American public more than any institution I
can think of." His own back-of-the-envelope calculation: $10 billion a
year.
Globalization has also lifted hundreds of millions of Third Worlders out of poverty and into their middle class. We Americans are rather self-centered and tend to dismiss the fate of those in other countries. If our middle class takes a little step backwards while the equivalent of several USAs rise out of poverty that is a good thing overall.
quote: WalMart's business model is completely dependent upon cheap oil and even cheaper overseas labor markets. Many businesses benefit from low input prices, not just Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart's business model depends more on IT, logistics and an unrelenting customer-focused internal culture than on cheap oil and overseas labor. In fact, oil isn't so cheap these days and WM is still doing OK. If for some reason cheap overseas labor markets ceased to exist WM would still excel at bringing large quantities of goods to their customers at the lowest possible price. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 6379
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:02 pm: | |
Track said: "Globalization has also lifted hundreds of millions of Third Worlders out of poverty and into their middle class."
And adds: "If for some reason cheap overseas labor markets ceased to exist WM would still excel at bringing large quantities of goods to their customers at the lowest possible price."
Unfortunately, to many on these threads that isn't important - or worse, evil - so let's get to the bottom line of what the inquiring minds on DY want to know: what's in it for unions & their members? |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4090
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:04 pm: | |
Ok, and a step away from this for a moment..
How much do you think Wal Mart workers should be paid? Come on, give me an exact hourly dollar amount and tell me how you came up with it. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2498
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:31 pm: | |
What's it matter what some outsider thinks they should be paid? The employer and employee come to a mutual agreement or else they're not employer/employee. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 677
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:36 pm: | |
WM workers and their kind should be paid what the market determines for that position. If that's $6.50 / hr so be it. Retail pays low, however there should be cost of living increases every year. These were standard before the Reaganomics years. They should also be provided with medical / dental / optical insurance with small or no premiums after 30 to 90 days. Pursuing a college degree should be encouraged and there ought to be a tuition reimbursement program for those pursuing degrees aligned with the company's needs. And most importantly after 90 days you will be considered a full time employee guaranteed a 40-hour work week and one whom cannot be discharged without cause. These are things that people who have white-collar jobs have and take for granted. I see no reason why retail workers would be beneath these benefits.
(Message edited by cambrian on February 26, 2007) |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 1253
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:40 pm: | |
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/j obseconomy/livingwages/
I think the minimum wage should be $10/hr. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2499
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:40 pm: | |
When you start your company, Cambrian, feel free to offer everything you stated.
Unless we're a major shareholder of WMT, employee compensation isn't coming out of our pockets so it really doesn't matter what we think they should get. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 678
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:49 pm: | |
Well Track, lotso companies do the right thing and offer these bennies. If there were an equal amount of laws protecting workers like there are laws that protect employers; jobs that offer these things would not be so difficult to find. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 467
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:50 pm: | |
Bored w/ working, so....
Jjaba: Your reference to the reasons Oreck moved from LA are just wrong. I know that story but this isn't the proper forum. Whatever point you were trying to make wasn't helped by your gratuitous reference to the Oreck family as "Jews." I'm surprised there hasn't been a comment about that. You signed off your post "Jjaba, confused as hell." Couldn't agree more. That not all, either.
You also think Christo's arguments are "clear, concise and crisp." Perhaps you're right about that, but the alleged facts upon which many of those arguments are based are wrong. You signed off that post w/ "Jjaba, seeking the truth." Glad to hear that; just read my posts. (How could 3WC not take that shot? Tell me.)
------------------------------ ---------------
Lilpup: You asked me if I was in favor of "driving American wages down instead of forcing other countries' workers' standard of living up. No, obviously. Neither does W-M. It has little if any control over other countries' wages. However, read the book and see what W-M (and other mass retailers who purchase goods from China and other countries are doing to make sure foreign workers are toiling in clean, modern, safe environments. The wages will increase on a natural curve. What I would like to see is 2 chickens in every pot, 2 American made cars in every garage, full employment at living wages, health care costs under control, peace in the Middle East, and the Detroit School System run by smart, knowledgeable, dedicated (to the children), caring, fiscally responsible, honest Board Members. Unfortunately, we live in the real world, but feel free to try and change it (as I believe we all try to do in our own ways.
------------------------------ -------------------
OK, I'm up to Christos: I did not dispute you worked in retail. I even suggested some places I thought you may have worked. I did not impugn your integrity and you don't have to prove anything to me.
Also, I was wrong on the slander comment. I should have said "libel" which governs written statements. Neither are illegal, but subject the offender to civil claims. More importantly, in retrospect you probably aren't "guilty" of either because you seem quite sincere and passionate about the issue, although misinformed re: many of your statements.
You and I agree 100% on the issue of so-called government handouts. W-M's not to blame. We are because we permit the govt to dole them out....not only to W-M employees but to corporations, farmers, and the B-C hotel.
You impugn W-M because you claim it "compels" some of its suppliers to produce in China. W-M does that, for sure, in a way. However, the suppliers aren't forced to produce there; they can stop selling to W-M. The book covers the issue very well. Huffy Bikes, the largest mfgr in the country went to China to continue to be able to sell to W-M and eventually went bankrupt; it would eventually have done so anyway. Snapper lawnmower company pulled its business from W-M rather than cheapen its product and produce in China. It has prospered w/o the W-M business. Some very good case studies in the book about how suppliers have addressed the opportunity/problem.
In your post #60, you raise a very interesting point re: our balance of payments w/ China. You are 100% correct. It's the most major problem facing this country today and it's detrimental consequences will dwarf the alleged problem of W-M's U. S. wage issue. Not too lang ago are trade w/ China was balance. Last night from another source I learned that we buy about $300 billion of goods from China while selling China about $36 billion. China is now believed to own over $1 TRILLION of our debt. Maybe that's what we should all be talking and worrying about. And that idiot Bush just took credit for convincing China to devalue it yuan, while in effect we just devalued our dollar.
There's a lot of other points you and I disagree about but ethey're not so much factual as philosophical.
And by the way, I'm not anti-union. I amd a "withdrawn" Teamster, having been an active union member while driving an asphalt hauler working my way through law school. One of my businesses is unionized and the relationship is excellent. And, I pay well, above what my competitors do, because I realize that my employees are assets who walk out the door every night. I have no turnover.
------------------------------ -----------------
Scottr: you claim that it's better to have a W-M built in your own town rather than the next town. Wrong again. Read the book.
------------------------------ -------------
Karl: you get the clear thinker award in my opinion and there are several more on this thread. Not Chitaku.
------------------------------ -------------------
Erikdetfan: I admire you a lot. You're tenacious, and have that most wonderful gift -- you're practical and gifted by common sense. You'll go far. I wish I had a job opening in MI because I'd hire you in a second, sight unseen. (If you want an oilfield job in TX, you could have your pick.)
Folks, I'd love to know which of you do now or have ever owned a business and had to "make payroll." I'll bet we could all sort everyone out accurately.
Here's some homework assignments. below are cites to some academic surveys covering several of the topic on this thread. The conclusions of several are deemed critical of W-MM:
http://www.missouri.edu/~baske re/ (County by county study of WM's economic impact.)
http://econ-www.mit.edu/facult y/index.htm?prof_id=hausman (Why the CPI is skewed because W-M data is not included-fascinating.)
httm://business.tepper.cmu.edu /display_faculty.aspx?id=118 (Impact of W-M Supercenters on Traditional Supermarkets..)
I don't know why these don't show up in blue. I am computer illiterate. Maybe they will when posted. There are many more cites in the book.
It's clear everyone here has pretty strong ideas, many of which aren't based on facts (as I understand them.) It's been very interesting, this thread. I wish everyone here would read "The Wal-Mart Effect---" and then come back here in a month and start the whole thing over. I'm not saying it will change anyone's opinion, but it will change the bases for many opinions. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 8392
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 3:51 pm: | |
quote:Not sure these days which model cars/trucks are actually built in Detroit - but wouldn't it seem hypocritical if the same Detroiters (Jt1 comes to mind) purchase cars built outside Detroit, foreign or not, since they don't benefit Detroiters?
Karl is as usual missing the point. I am not arguing about where the profits go but I do not like their business practices and I do not like that when Wal Marts come in that they tend to cause tons of mom and pop stores to close.
Due to that I do not shop there.
I have also said that I would be fine with Wal Mart coming into the city because there are so few mom and pops around that the typical effects would not be felt. The benefit I see in that scenario is that Detroiters could spend their dollars in Detroit as opposed to going to a Wal Mart in a suburb.
Are you really as dense as your posts. You are completely missing every point being made so I will summarize in a way that is easy enough for an old man like yourself to understand.
1. I do not like Walmart business practices and the effects that they have on community stores. Due to that I will not shop at Wal Mart. I know that it will have no effect on their bottom line but I shop with my conscience. Easy enough for you to understand.
2. A WalMart in Detroit would not have the effects that they have in most places because the number of mom and pops are very limited to start with. Detroiters also spend billions in the suburbs. If they are going to shop at Walmart I would certainly prefer the dollars be kept in the city as opposed to supporting stores in the suburbs. Same idea as buying goods locally as opposed to online but in a much more localized concept.
Easy enough right. Detroit needs to stem economic flight as much as people flight. Having options in the city would keep dollars, jobs and tax revenue in the city.
Your cars built outside the city doesn't really make sense because you are comapring factory goods against retail. I would prefer that people support Detroit based auto dealers as opposed to those in the suburbs. That would be a better comparison.
Now would you like to engage in real dialogue or take stupid shots with off the mark comparisons? |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 468
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
Jt1: You are not capable of engaging in "real" (as opposed to fake?) dialogue because you have no idea what you're talking about. You make assumptions about W-M that are plainly just false. There are probably many reasons, and legitimate ones at that, people don't care for W-M, but the reasons you use to support your dislike for the company aren't factual. Don't go through life tilting at windmills. Read the book. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 8394
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 4:16 pm: | |
quote:Jt1: You are not capable of engaging in "real" (as opposed to fake?) dialogue because you have no idea what you're talking about. You make assumptions about W-M that are plainly just false. There are probably many reasons, and legitimate ones at that, people don't care for W-M, but the reasons you use to support your dislike for the company aren't factual. Don't go through life tilting at windmills. Read the book.
Care to elaborate. Do you disagree that WalMart puts many, many mom and pop business out out of business? Do you disagree that they have less economic benefit to a region/area than other stores?
Instead of stating someone is wrong why not present your case. I am trying to engage in conversation but people like you just resort to the 'you're wrong, I'm right' argument. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2500
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
quote:Well Track, lotso companies do the right thing and offer these bennies. If there were an equal amount of laws protecting workers like there are laws that protect employers; jobs that offer these things would not be so difficult to find. Actually "lotso" companies in retail do not offer those bennies. Sure, companies in other industries do (me too) but that's because it makes business sense to offer a certain compensation package in order to attract and retain a certain caliber of employee. |
Mjb3
Member
Username: Mjb3
Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 4:34 pm: | |
If you don't like WM, don't shop there. Simple as that.
I think low income people in Detroit should have the choice.(to save money w/o driving to suburbs, or pay $4/can for Campbells soup from party store)
If enough people object to WM policies and don't shop there, they will close.
"The invisible hand" of the marketplace, Adam Smith I think. |
Ericdetfan
Member
Username: Ericdetfan
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 4:35 pm: | |
Thank you all for the welcome and I have a lot of comments to answer.
Oldredfordette:
I think it’s another common misconception that Wal-Mart doesn't pay its employees enough when actually on average people make the same amount at Target and Meijers. Actually I have heard of people making LESS at Meijers. It all depends on the task that you do as well...I worked at Target right before I left for the Air Force and am Making on average the same at Wal-Mart. Perhaps I should be paid more, but that’s a matter of perception I guess. I was actually surprised when I was hired in at more then I thought I would be. I have already gotten a 90 day raise and a promotion to a higher paying department.
Wal-Mart does offer health insurance, you of course have to pay into it and employees are not eligible to receive it until they have been there for certain amount of time (I forget how long). No retailer that I know of includes free health insurance with employment; at least none that I have worked for. If a retailer did then I am sure they would pay their employees less to offset the cost. Yes, it is true that Wal-mart is Non-union; they feel that all disputes about wages and hours worked can be worked out through the open-door policy on a store level. I have never felt threatened into accepting Wal-Marts policies. Also I have never been asked to work to work off the clock for any job that I have had and if I ever was, I would refuse to do so. Doing work that you are not going to be paid for is wrong.
jjaba:
Your pretty much dead on with you numbers; at least 4 me you are. That’s about what I make there. When you look at the type of people that Wal-Mart employs though, at least from my point of view most of the people that I work with are doing fine. There is an elderly couple that works in my store the guy works in Sporting goods, the lady works as a supervisor, with their combined incomes they do fine. An elderly man works as a door greeter (which is the lowest paying job at Wal-Mart), but he also gets social security and pension from working in a factory for 30 years. A lady I work with in electronics is divorced so she gets child support along with her Wal-Mart pay. So unless you are a bachelor who lives a home and/or goes to school like me or if you have some other source of income like me, then a Wal-mart salary would have you living in poverty. (I'm not speaking for management of course) How many People actually fit the "I am married, have a family, am not management, own a home, but have only one source of income" category anymore? I would wager to say very few who middle class are.
As far as my pay check goes, I make on the average of about 1000 a month after taxes. I work 5 days a week @ 32hrs per week. If I wanted to work that extra day a week I could and no one would have a problem with it unless I went over 40 hours. That is more than enough to get my bills paid and have more to feed myself, clothe myself, and have a little money for entertainment. However, I live at home and am not married, and am not currently in school. I do however, have a considerable amount of debt for someone my age through none’s fault but my own. I have paid it down a lot and hope to be returning to school or something like that in the near future. Today’s economy simply does not support being able to live off one income and not be in poverty. Wal-Mart was not designed to be the place to work if you only intend on having one income and are married with a family...I think Sam Walton knew this and used it to fit the economic trends that began in the 1970's.
My Working conditions are quite well. The store is safe, clean, and well lit. Literature on any subject from safety to paid time off is available when ever I want to look at it via the internet and hardcopy at the store itself. Safety equipment is clearly labeled and always available when I need it. Mechanical equipment that is not functioning properly is locked out with a special tag that prevents its use and warns until it can be repaired. Most equipment is repaired the same day.
My hours and Schedule have been very consistent. My hours have not gone down because of slow periods and I have never been asked to work more days than I can handle. If I had a compliant or concern about something, I used the open door policy and it was resolved almost immediately. As far as setting prevailing wages I would say that they are right in line with all the industries that you mention except for transportation and Gov. those I think still have higher wages.
I will admit that Wal-Mart has a long way to go, but I know that they are far from the horrible company that many people on this board have made them out to be. I know about all the lawsuits and the unlawful practices, but I can assure everyone that this not the norm...If there are stores out there that are doing these things, they will be and have been found out and punished. I am glad that those websites and the government are keeping a close eye on Wal-Mart. I am a strong advocate of corporate accountability. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 469
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
Jt1: Fair enough. You're wrong for these reasons:
Of course I do not believe that W-M puts mom and pop businesses out of business. This issue has been studied to death. It's certainly true that many small businesses have failed after W-M enters a market area. The reason? Those failed businesses' customers decided, for many reasons, that they prefer to shop at W-M. This process has been ongoing since before Sam Walton was a gleam in his parents eyes. Survival of the fittest. A law of nature. Is W-M going to survive forever in its present form? Not unless it will be the first entity in history to do so. It will be supplanted sooner or later. Despite its emerging leadership in markets it's entering throughout the world, as the U.S. continues to inexorably become a shadow of its former self, a hopelessly indebted nation, a sick oil addict unable to score the oil it needs to maintain its lifestyle, W-M will decline as well.
Of course I disagree W-M provided less economic benefit to a region than other stores. Read the studies. Check the links I posted above. Read the book I've been talking about. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 8403
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 10:36 pm: | |
Fair enough. I appreciate the response and will read your suggestions. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4904
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 10:43 pm: | |
Ericdetfan, thanks for the candid report on Wal-Mart.
What you describe is "women's work wages" in retail. There's white collar, blue collar, and pink collar jobs. Frank Woolworth and SS Kresge hired young women whose only other options were babysitting, cleaning houses, or raising children.
Although you seem content, you have that "live at home" arrangement which shields you from many bills. This is a blessing for you.
Perhaps the words "Family Wages" applies in comparison. Remember, Wal-Mart is the World's Largest Corporation with most employees. They are very profitable. They COULD easily afford to give you a 200% raise and still profit. This is the part about greed that many find so offensive.
Since there are more idle hands than jobs, they can act this way with impunity.
Your plan for education which results being in a labor pool of fewer numbers, will raise your wages immensely. Add some letters and licenses after your name, and you'll climb into the middle class & more. The quicker the better.
jjaba. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 217
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:42 pm: | |
One of the interesting discussions that has popped up on this thread a few times is "how much should a person be paid" for this or that task.
From an economic standpoint that is easy. Everyone on earth who works for a company should be paid slightly less than the value they add to the company. If you add $30 per hour of value to a company, then it's a bit unfair if your compensation is only $15 (compensation includes all the costs of having you as an employee by the way), but if your compensation is $35 then the company is losing money on you.
If Wal Mart is paying substantially less than the added value per hour for employees, compared to other retailers, and if those other retailers are making a profit, then it is reasonable to say Wal Mart is not paying fairly, and refusing to buy from them is then a fair and decent strategy.
Now, the other interesting point is Wal Mart's effect on its supplier industries. I've heard quite a lot about this, but mostly from people working from suppliers who've been squeezed out. Anyone know any good facts on that side of the issue? |
Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4905
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 1:53 am: | |
The Rubbermaid case is the most widely known.
jjaba. |
Fastcarsfreedom
Member
Username: Fastcarsfreedom
Post Number: 135
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 8:55 am: | |
Rubbermaid, from my understanding, ran afoul of Wal-Mart after raising the cost to Wal*Mart of it's products in the mid 1990s--relating to increase in the price of plastics. Wal*Mart, in return, reduced it's dependence on Rubbermaid's products--turning over more shelf space to competitors. Although it's been insinuated that this drove Rubbermaid out of business--it did not--however, Rubbermaid did suffer severe hardship due to decreased sales to Wal*Mart, ultimately merging with another consumer goods company Newell in 1999. Today, 15% of NewellRubbermaid's revenue comes from Wal*Mart. P&G has restructured it's brand portfolio in part to focus on brands desired by Wal*Mart as well as other mass merchandisers--P&G's revenue is around 15% dependent on Wal*Mart also. |
Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 682
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 9:56 am: | |
On NPR this morning: Wal mart plans to take over a competing Chenese chain and increase thier number of stores to 75. 75 stores for 1 billion people, vs. how many thousands of stores here for 260 million? Quite telling that most Chinese can't afford to shop there yet low prices or not. This is despite the rosy picture the media paints us on China's "Mad Growth Pace". The reason for the focus on Chinese growth, Wal Mart's profits are dipping in the US. Appears they sucked about as much life out of us as they could.
(Message edited by cambrian on February 27, 2007) |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 8407
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 10:13 am: | |
Cambrian - you are reading a lot into the number of stores. |
Track75
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Username: Track75
Post Number: 2506
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 10:25 am: | |
Jjaba said:quote:Perhaps the words "Family Wages" applies in comparison. Remember, Wal-Mart is the World's Largest Corporation with most employees. They are very profitable. They COULD easily afford to give you a 200% raise and still profit. This is the part about greed that many find so offensive.
Since there are more idle hands than jobs, they can act this way with impunity.
Earlier, 3rdworldcity said:quote:Wal-Mart's total profit per year per employee was in '04 $6,400; Microsoft's was $200,000 per year per employee. W-M's TOTAL PROFIT per employee per HOUR is about $3.00. That includes all the managers and executives. It can't afford to pay it's employees more and still deliver its customers the low prices they DEPEND on. Where'd you guys get your numbers? They obviously contradict each other. |
Bob
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Username: Bob
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 10:45 am: | |
Wal-Marts next problem is going to be growth. They are running out of new markets to build stores short of urban areas. They saw the next area for growth being different demographics and trying to lure Target and Kohl's shoppers. The problems for Wal-Mart is that those people do not want to shop at Wal-Mart for whatever reason. Wal-Mart under-estimated being able to attract wealthier shoppers and now any rise in profits is due to their demographic having more money to spend. Lower gas prices, more money left to shop at Wal-Mart. Target and Kohls demographics tend to have a little more money, so they had more to spend, hence why their profits kept increasing while Wal-Mart's were stagnant for a while. Wal-Mart has tried selling "exclusive" brand of clothes and such, but all that did was hurt profits, because their demographic could not afford this stuff, or did not want it. Wal-Mart will eventually do itself in. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 470
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:05 pm: | |
Bob: Do you have one iota of data to support any statement in your post? NO. Pure gibberish.
Track75: My source was cited above;
The Wal-Mart Effect...", the most authoritative book about althought overall critical of the company. I don't have the author's source as I write that.
Jjaba does not have the slightest idea of what he's talking about, and he doesn't have a source, or at least a credible one. See if he respends.
Jjaba: Pretend you're made Chairman of W-M; my guess is you have no experience at all running a business, but why don't you tell us what you'd doto change the company to your liking w/o bankrupting it. Giving all the profits to the employees a la Karl Marx is not an option.
(Message edited by 3rdworldcity on February 27, 2007) |
Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:24 pm: | |
to destroy Wal-mart you have to destroy the heart |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1377
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:40 pm: | |
All you have to do is look at their reported results to Wall Street from 4th quarter 2005 and 1st Quarter 2006. They even said it themselves. This is why the refocused for this past Christmas season and were successful in terms of profits. They even admitted they were off in targeting last Christmas and focused on their core shoppers and it worked. They fully admit that they are more prone to being hurt by consumers having to deal with high energy prices. If there is one thing that Wal-Mart succeeds at it is making sure they have the right stuff in the right place at the right time. This is why they were able to route supplies down to Hurricane Katrina victims faster than FEMA (not that it would take much). They use technology better than any company on earth in terms of tracking sales and inventory. When something is sold it is instantly tracked and the maker is notified so they can predict demand. They have a huge room that looks like the bridge of the Enterprise that can route anything they need based on a natural disaster or just plain great sales. |
Christos
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Username: Christos
Post Number: 65
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 5:10 pm: | |
3WC- I agree with you on the China bit. The trade deficit and thier ownership of our debt. The thing with free trade, is that its only really free if the cost of labor is equal. With a lack of worker protection laws and wage laws, the Chineese govt is essentially subsizing the cost of labor in thier nation which is a huge cause of this trade imbalance.
The debt issue is just plain scary. I feel like a lot of the economic expansion in the last few years has been as a result of people purchasing consumer goods, homes, and cars on credit. This trend of "interest only loans" creeps me out, and I think fuels this.
On the issue of government handouts, glad we agree. I have an issue with handouts in general, but to retail in particular. Retail is an industry that follows markets, and goes where the consumers want them to be. I think its kind of pointless to subsidize that. At least in the manufacturing sector, you can in theory prevent jobs from going abroad.
Good to hear that you are a good employer and understand the benefits of happy workers.
On the issue of "how much more can Wal-Mart spend?" I think I know the problem in the math.
Wal-Mart's annual report lists thier "Net Income" at 11.2 Billion (source: http://media.corporate-ir.net/ media_files/irol/11/112761/200 6_annual_report.pdf). Someone divided that by thier 1.8 million workers that they list on thier website, and found that they make $6,222.22 a year (or $518.52 per month)in profit per employee. If you divide that by 52 you see that that comes to $119.65 a week. If we were to assume that every single Wal-Mart worker worked 40 hours a week (which is not the case- there are more part time than full time, and full time workers can get as low as 27 hours a week), you would get $2.99 in profit per worker, per hour. Getting to this number is kinda shady.
Wal-Mart's SEC filings, however, list thier GROSS profit at $72 Billion (source: http://yahoo.brand.edgar-onlin e.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx ?dcn=0001193125-06-066792&Type =HTML)
Pardon me for sounding igrnorant, but what is the difference between gross and net profit? Is gross profit, the profit before payouts to the bigwigs? |
Track75
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Username: Track75
Post Number: 2507
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 5:41 pm: | |
Christos, Gross Profit = Sales - Cost of Goods Sold
Net Profit = Gross Profit - all other expenses
"all other expenses" include payroll, utilities, advertising, benefits, income and payroll taxes, interest on corporate debt, rent or lease payments, insurance, theft, etc.
Their net profit margin is 3.3%. So buy an item for $1.00 ($1.06 with sales tax) and 3.3¢ of that is profit after all expenses are paid. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 472
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 5:59 pm: | |
Bob: I apologise for my rather strident post above. It's true that W-M's sales for very short periods are flat. As are profits. However, W-M is constantly tinkering w/ its product mix, marketing etc and some stuff works and some doesn't. However, W-M is considered not to have any real competition. See my comments Re: Target in a previous post.
Your allegation that W-M is "running out of new markets" is just wrong based on everything I've read. It is still building stores constantly in this country and at a greater pace in other markets overseas (Mexico, India, China, Europe etc.)It is encountering resistance from municipalities in the US which want to prohibit W-M's growth for various reasons.
However, W-M has stated that it is going to start refurbishing and expending older stores which it thinks will result in substantially higher sales for thos e stores...and there are hundreds of them. They are also opening new stores in areas already served as sprawl and demographics justify it.
I don't have any back-up facts at my fingertips to support those statements above but the strategy has been analyzed in business and retail publications for quite a while.
Christos' references to the Edgar site (which I havcen't read yet) is probably a very good source for info re store openings, same store year-to-year sales etc. I'm going to do that when I have some time.
Christos. Thanks for the Edgar and other link above.
You may have seen that the Dow took a 400+ point hit today for the reason that the Shanghai Stock Mkt dropped 9 points and wiped out $100 billion in market cap. That Shanghai Mkt is very volatile, and not the major Chinese exchange but clearly there are rumblings about China's rate of growth (and therefore W-M's projected Chinese growth as well.) W-M has some clout. I thing W-M alone ranks as China's 7th largest purchaser of goods. China will be subject to the same labor pressures to improve workers' lot. I'd say it will be a good place to be an organizer, and I'll bet a lot that U.S. unions will be over there in some capacity someday.
I'm no CPA and it's been a long time since I studied accounting as an elective in high school. However, to attempt to answer your question, I'd say if you bought something for a dollar and sold it for $2, your gross profit is $1.00. After deducting your cost of sales, including rent, insurance, utilities etc, what's left is your net profit. That's also your pre-tax profit if taxes weren't figured as a cost of sales, which they usually aren't. Clarification, elaboration anyone?
It seems as if many posters, including Jjabe, would love to redistribute W-M's profits. What's their view of Microsoft's $200,000 per employee annual profit? Give every employee an extra 100 grand? No one seem to worry about the poor old Microsoft employees. Let's start a movement. |
Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 143
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 6:36 pm: | |
Is WalMart going to open stores in "economically distressed areas" or just help create more of those areas? |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4909
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 7:47 pm: | |
Track75 and 3rdworldcity, jjaba gives a solution.
Some progressive retailers have decided to use a model where the CEO only makes 20 times the shop-floor worker.
So the CEO decides to earn $425,000/yr. and run Wal-Mart. Workers are getting jjaba's $10.21 an hr. ($21,236.80) You do the math.
A reasonable dividend can be distributed to stockholders, comparable with bank-type interest or that of DTE stockholders.
The residual can be used as bonuses to workers, investment in new plant, health benefits, worker incentive gifts, stock shares, charity.
Or, raise the wages of the workers, raise the wages of management using the formula if good times occur.
The issues with Wal-Mart's model is the spread between the Waltons, major executives, and line workers who make the company roll.
Start with an assumption that $35,000/yr. is a nice salary for a full time worker. Throw in full health care. Set aside a defined benefit pension for each worker. Then, pay 20 times to the Wal-Mart CEO. That's $700,000/yr. CEO gets $700,000, store directors, $100,000, etc. etc.
If would be jjaba's position that the stock would still be strong, management would not leave the company, and you wouldn't have to tax the hell out of everybody to run our public services.
How's that or is this too "Marxist" for you? Using the name of Marx in such a way is an old canard of two generations ago, BTW.
And 3rd World, get a grip. jjaba ran two retail businesses very successfully and sold both at a reasonable price. He was the sole owner of both.
He paid the best wages to workers in the industries and still had plenty for his badself.
One was a tour operator business and the other laundry-dry cleaners.
jjaba. |
Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 8:10 pm: | |
Jjaba neatly ties the knot. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2508
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 9:26 pm: | |
Jjaba, I know your heart is in the right place but I can't agree with your plan for philosophical and practical reasons.
In any large public company the amount of money going to exec comp is almost negligible compared to any other expense item. It's an issue that gets people riled up so an inordinate amount of attention is focused on what is financially insignificant. I understand the philosophy of using a certain maximum ratio between CEO and “shop floor” pay but despite the emotional appeal of such an egalitarian approach, it doesn’t make business sense for a large company.
Wal-Mart’s CEO made $5.23 million last year. Pay him your suggested $425K and spread out the remaining $4.8MM across 1.8 million employees. That’s a measly $2.67 per employee per year. The next four highest paid execs make $2.6MM, $1.9MM, $1.6MM and $1.5MM per year. There’s a few more dollars there potentially for the rest of the work force, but it sure won’t pay for a 200% raise, full health coverage and a defined benefit pension. There’s simply not enough money in exec compensation to make a difference. Wal-Mart’s CEO pay is only 0.002% of Wal-Mart’s revenue. From a practical standpoint, exec comp is a red herring when it comes to schemes for paying workers more.
It also isn’t really anyone’s business except the owners, managers and employees of Wal-Mart. CEO pay may be deemed excessive by some (perhaps even me, $200MM/year for average performance at a few other companies recently is absurd to me). But CEO pay comes out of company revenues just like advertising or merchandise. If a company overpays for advertising the shareholders suffer but there’s no public outcry. If a company overpays for management again the shareholders are the ones who pay but now it becomes an item for public indignation. Why? If you or I as a business owner wish to pay a manger more than some outsider thinks they’re worth, that’s our business, and it comes at our expense. Wouldn’t it have seemed strange if your dry cleaning customers complained that you were overpaying your store manager? What business is it of theirs?
Some people might think that $425K is plenty of money for anyone to make, but the decision of what to pay a CEO (still an employee) is up to the company owners. Maybe the company owners feel that $425K isn’t enough to attract the kind of executive they trust to run a company valued at $200 billion (with a “B”). Maybe the owners are willing to pay $5 million for the right guy, like Wal-Mart, or even $50 million.
If the right guy ($5 million) can add 1% to the company’s value compared to the less expensive ($425K) CEO, that’s another $2 billion in value created. That extra $2 billion in value only cost them $4.5 million, a net profit of $1.995 billion. Telling the owners of the company that they have to hire a “cheap” CEO might save $4.5 million, ostensibly for the workers, but at a cost of $1.995 billion in lost value. That’s a pretty bad business decision, and it’s not one to be forced upon the owners by outsiders. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 476
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
Jjaba, Jjaba, Jjaba: Enough. Read and re-read Track75's above post. HE knows what he is talking about.
You may in your example be attempting to refer to aspects of the compensation philosophy of Costco, which has a policy such as you suggest. However, you miss one very important part of the equation. The Costco execs have huge stockholdings in the company and prefer to reduce tremendously their CASH compensation and be compensated by stock options and other non-cash considerations etc.
You could not possibly have owned, operated and sold 2 businesses at a profit while implementing what you believe is the "fair" compensation philosophy described above.
Jjaba gives a solution? 3WC thinks not. |
Ericdetfan
Member
Username: Ericdetfan
Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 12:34 am: | |
I dont think a Wal-Mart in Detroit is a good idea...I think it would create more problems than its worth and would not be profitable for the city or Wal-Mart itself...
I am not in totally in favor of the Dearborn Location, either but that building has been vacant for a very long time and am getting kind of tired of seeing it that way. Close proximity to Detroit is somewhat of a mixed blessing.
One of the negative things is the crime.
My mother has worked at a retail location in Dearborn since 1993. She has stated to me many times that the theft and brazeness of theft at her store has increased dramatically...
Of course that has a lot to do with the state of Michigans economy. In theory, if more people had jobs or even better ones, there would be less theft because peoples needs would be met better. That of course, is a whole 'nother issue..
Quite a situation we have here. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4911
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 1:53 am: | |
jjaba takes the words above seriously and learns a great deal here. Thank you. However right are 3WC and Track75, somehow Wal-Mart has gained a terrible reputation across the USA, not shared by Costco, Target, K-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Office Max, Kroger, and all manner of boxes big. What's up with that if they're so smart, wise, and good citizens?
jjaba now understands the Costco model better. Thank you. Bosses take stock, not taxable wages. Ok, but its "reputation" is workers are more fairly compensated. And people listen to the street, eh. "Street cred'."
As for value of businesses, it is really what will the buyer will pay for it. Everybody has their definition of value. As you've noted, it can easily be understood as for the cash it brings in.
jjaba stands corrected. Wal-Mart did lose a place on Chicago's Southside for the adjacent suburb but opened in last Sept., on the Westside in Chicago. 15,000 people applied for 400 jobs. Wal-Mart placed ads on tv and radio, plus print ads FOR smaller stores nearby. Other efforts were made to be a good neighbor, not a predator one.
Wal-Mart has plans to open in nine more depressed cities. As we know, they are always touting their Baldwin Hills Store in LA on Natl. tv. Magic Johnson has his theaters in that 'hood too.
jjaba. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 6388
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:47 am: | |
One thing I learned in the last several election cycles: The top eschelon at Walmart lean and contribute Republican, and thus are linked and reported on accordingly by the HATE BUSH crowd. The big shots at Costco lean and contribute Dem, and thus are given a pass by the same crowd that thinks Teddy walks on the same water that killed Mary Jo, and that the Clintons can lie with impunity.
It is interesting, to say the least, to watch the mainstream press report on each.
The Chicago fiasco that Jjaba mentions changed once the city of Chicago came to its senses and realized:
1. How much sales tax revenue was being sacrificed for their ideals (the same ideals that approve casinos)
2. The disservice COC was doing to its citizens
(Message edited by karl on February 28, 2007) |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 477
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
Jjaba: An interesting book is Thomas Friedman's "The World is Flat."
A section is devoted to the number of hours people work in various areas of the world.
India has just amended its "sweatshop hours law," increasing the number of hours employees may be required to work from 50 to 60 hours per week. It's in competition w/ China like the rest of us.
Friedman's position that China will put an end to "European socialism" if Europe is to survive economically. 35 hour work weeks and other bennies for workers in France, Germany and other countries will soon become a thing of the past. The U.S. 40-hour week will inevitably change.
He points out that Wal-Mart has prohibitions against buying anything produced by "shackled labor," that is, forced labor. The only problem is there is no way for Wal-Mart to actually enforce its ban, one of the reasons being its lack of access to actual manufacturing sites. Same problem for other companies which try to protect foreign workers. I know, they should refuse to buy unless they can monitor actual production (as W-M and Costco do i/c/w the production. processing and sale of Salmon from Chili (about 80,000+ tons/year.)
The world is changing rapidly and the U.S way of life and standard of living is going to be very adversley affected in my opinion. We'd better get used to it.
Friedman also points out that there are thousands of technology folks in India who are willing to work 35 hour days if they could and the idea of a 35 hour week doesn't even compute. And 60 hour weeks isn't going to hurt anyone. I've done it for years (not too often now) and I'm sure many others on this forum have as well. I can only guess. but would bet, that Lowell puts in more than 60 hours a week running this forum.
Christos: I think it's up to you and others like you to start changing things for the benefit of all U.S. workers. The way we'll survive is to force wages up and substantially improve the working conditions in countries like China and India. Unions did a great job of doing that in this country years ago. I hope unions are at least considering ways to start exerting influence, as advisors to workers there, on how to start and benefit from unions. It obviously won't be easy. The process in China will make the battle of the Ford overpass look like a tea party.
Funny, huh, how unions may be the only way we have to level the playing field overseas and help preserve our way of life. |
14509glenfield
Member
Username: 14509glenfield
Post Number: 372
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
Let your conscience be your guide! |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 1:11 pm: | |
3rdworldcity - respectfully, you're wrong. For as long as humanity has traded it has searched for the best price. That, and willingness to supply dictate equilibrium. Unions might be able to cloud the equation on a local basis ("boycott table grapes" right?, or "minimum wage") but I don't see much evidence that they have international teeth. History is and always has been a race to the bottom re: prices and wages - that's what made Detroit rich for so many years. Shoe's on the other foot now, commrade, and there's not much to be done about it. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 2:59 pm: | |
Friedman also talks extensively about Wal-Mart as one of the things that has flattened the world through their use of technology. It will be interesting if and when China has some kind of labor uprising. Our American economy has become dependent on cheap goods from China and other low cost labor areas. If Chinese workers demand more pay, who do you think it will be passed on to? Us in terms of what we pay for our cheap Chinese goods. Of course that could also make manufacturing in America look better. But I have to agree 3rdworldcity's assessment of it making Ford's Battle of the Overpass look like a tea party, it will have ripples all over the world, not just Wal-Mart. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4916
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 3:06 pm: | |
Kroger has Chilean table grapes on sale for 89 cents right now. Chile found out when American grapes are not available and grow them like crazy. So much for the Calif. workers.
Thanks for the economics lesson, 3rd Worldcity.
Your handle is about right, BTW.
jjaba has been to India and China and Indonesia, Mexico, etc. These are not places to write home about. Life is tough there. For however successful, their people are still trying to beat a path here. Open sewers, bucket bathing, and people squatting in public is not jjaba's idea of the great society.
jjaba, traveler. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 478
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 3:31 pm: | |
Craig: You may be right. I may be wrong.
However, although labor unions may not have much international clout they should strive to acquire it. It's been a long time since I minored in Economics in college and took every labor law course and seminar in law school, but I seem to recall the early European labor unions attained much clout and economic influence.
I was just saying that by acquiring the kind of power in China et al that they attained in the U.S. the cost of producing goods there would increase substantially through higher wages and better working conditions. That would inevitably cots W-M customers money but it would help U. S. labor as well who would get closer to a more level playing field.
There's a better chance of that happening there than continuing to try to wring labor benefits for workers here and putting major businesses and whole industries out of business so everyone loses.
Christos, what say you? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 2654
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 3:35 pm: | |
quote:Kroger has Chilean table grapes on sale for 89 cents right now. Chile found out when American grapes are not available and grow them like crazy. So much for the Calif. workers.
What? More BS from the far west side? If they're not available in this country, I suppose we should do without grapes.
Maybe Chileans buy grapes from the northern hemisphere during their winters too. Hell, that only seems the intelligent thing to do.
Chilean grapes have been big sellers in the US during the summer in SA (our winter here) for decades except for that year when some fake rumor of Chilean grapes being poisoned or whatever, and they were all pulled from the market that season many years ago. So, few Americans ate grapes that winter...
Jjaba, you weren't responsible spreading that rumor, were you? |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 4:39 pm: | |
3world - again... I believe that we're close to being on the same space. Unions might help, but only if the Chinese grunts embrace 'em, the People's Army dosn't shoot 'em, and their wages get up to the point that ProfScott was talking about. In other words, if our unions go bust and the Chinese find their own W. Reuther we might have a chance as the new Mexico. Just my opinion as a poli sci guy but one who reads history. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 479
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 5:13 pm: | |
Craig: sounds about right to me. Being the new Mexico won't look so bad in a few years.
The operative words above are "if the People's Army doesn't shoot 'em." By the way, it appears the Peoples Army is a huge manufacturer of goods over there using "shackle labor." (I think it's admirable in a way that some folks on here won't buy from W-M because of the source of many of its goods - China - and the probability that workers are being exploited. People vote w/ their pocket books. However, I hate to see W-M singled out because 100's of billions of dollars of goods are purchased from China each year, by 1000's of U.S. companies. One only has to sit in the Antler Bar at the Anchorage Airport for 6 hours and count the unending parade of 747 freighters landing from Asia. I counted almost 60 in 2 1/2 hours last year, w/ 15 or more airfreight companies represented. You can feel our debt burden crushing down on you as you sit there, a very good reason to have one more drink before boarding.)
Christo's a known union guy on the thread and I'd like his views on the topic of union presence in China, India et al. |
Christos
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 68
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 9:13 pm: | |
3WC- sorry, I haven't been on a few day to catch up with this thread.
I agree 100% with you on unions on a global level. I think unions not only redistribute wealth- but decrease employee turnover, and lead to more productive workforces. Also- I think when a company goes union, it becomes (generally) more productive. Think about it this way- when you are forced to have higher labor costs, you think of other ways to become more productive (either on the demand side, or non-labor costs on the supply side).
On the issue of profits for example- while we pretty much have deduced that it would severly hurt Wal-Mart's business model to provide good health care for all of thier workers- why is it Kroger can do it and stay comptetitive in a simlar (though admitidly not identical) market.
The problem labor is facing now is this- the economy is now global and service based. While the movement as a whole has not adapted to the idea of a service-based economy, individual ones have. The five largest unions in the nation are the NEA, AFSCME, the Teamsters, SEIU, and UFCW (which is the nations largest private sector union). All five of those are service based. The problem is, while some of these service unions now dominate the movement on their own, the movement still clings to the manufacturing sector, and has no organized approach in organizing the service sector. People just reach for whatever they can grab, without any long term planning. Hopefully the newly formed Change To Win federation will better face these challenges. I think the movement will adapt.
On the issue of globalization however, organized labor seems to be dropping the ball BIG TIME. I'm sorry to say that the title "International Union" in most unions, usually means "we have a few locals in Canada." This is where we need to grow. There is a VERY strong labor force in Eurpoe- a serviced based economy. I think American, European, and other global unions need to merge and truly become a global force. Did you know for example that South Korea, Brazil, and South Africa have strong auto unions?
The main problem with the global economy is this. We have little or no trade barriers when it comes to tarrifs, but HUGE barriers when it comes to labor laws, with the scale tilted against the American worker. Its unfair when an American auto worker has to compete with a Chinese one, while the government in China subsidizes the labor cost by having little or no worker protections.
With a united global labor movement, labor can assist movements in countries like India and China, by putting pressure on western governments to put tarrifs on imports from these nations in order to offset government subsidized low labor costs. Clinton did something like this with a southeast asian nation (I'm sorry I can't remember which one at the moment- if you know shout out), giving them favored nation trading status if they enacted child labor, minimum wage, and union rights laws. It worked out really well, as then not many nations were given such status (now a lot of them are).
I think an organized labor movement on a global scale can accomplish this, and do this in a way that helps economies, and works with corporations. I'm by no means advocating any sort of "communist" movement (I am, after all a capitalist), but I think a movement for a global economy with labor laws similar to that of Canada's, the US's, or Europe's (prefibly Canada or EU's ;) can give incentives for corporations and economies to grow a global middle class. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
Hi Christos - I wish that you were right about the ability unions to internationalize and stop the fall of wages, but I just cannot see it happening. International solidarity will be required to pull off what you hope for, and you cannot find solidarity in even one place! To use the UAW and USW as examples, they lost their radicalism when the members got rich, and then they bargained away jobs to keep their pay. If there were solidarity here people like me could be working on the line - for less than today's UAW, but we'd be working. We probably won't be here to see it, but in 100 years industrial jobs will go to Africa or other backwaters once Chinese shoprats are rich and racking up $65 an hour like Delphi's "people cutting the grass." We're victims of our own success and my generation pays the price for the people who followed after Reuther. |
Planner_727
Member
Username: Planner_727
Post Number: 92
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:18 am: | |
I think we could agree that Wal-Mart is more prosperous, employs more people, and can offer much more competitive prices than Kroger. The low wages and low costs/high efficiency in thier model is what allows them to charge the lowest prices and still turn a profit. Their model is completely different than Kroger's, and to compare is almost unfair. Of course they could provide health care, a jobs bank, free tuition (they could probably buy U of Pheonix or something to offer subsidized classes for employees - I think I just had a great idea), extensive unemployment coverage, etc, etc, etc. Unfortunately, the fine folks at upper management would do their best to pass most of that on to the consumer... which in many cases is the same lower and lower-middle class people who shop there. Not to downplay the invaluable progress that unions have brought to the working world over the last century, but unionization is not always the answer, especially in the retail service industries.
To reiterate, I think that WalMart as a corporation has many negatives, but their practices are not that far off of many other retailers. A great story on CNN or 60 Minutes or something several months ago compared the business model of COSTCO versus WALMART. They are both very successful retailers who run their companies and arrived at their current level of prosperity in two completely different ways.
Finally, the idea of global economy with universal labor laws modeled after Canada or the EU is somthing that we should all support. However, this does not require unions and certainly does not guarantee a middle class for all countries, only a few. If anything, the unionization globally of manufacturing would only serve to support the complete elimination of that sector from the american economy and strengthen the gentrification of the country into a lower and upper class society. There will always need to be management and consultants and public sector employees at local (at least somewhere in the US) offices. There will always need to be on-site service and retail workers. Manufacturing lends itself to globalization becuase with the proper infrastructure, the parts can be made and assembled anywhere (and in many different places). Labor laws that require a living wage only strengthen the draw of countries with a lower cost of living for jobs that are not location-specific... places like Mexico, Asia, Africa will only get more jobs because a $10 day or even a $5 hour is more than enough to live well (just examples, these are not researched numbers). The reality is America is changing the types of jobs that it has. I read a great article (sorry, no source again) that likened this recent trend to the automation of agriculture at the turn of the last century. Literally hundreds of thousands of employees who had little education and no expereince in anything outside of agriculture were forced to migrate to different parts of the country to learn manufacturing trade when the need for laborers was essentially eliminated. The same phenomenon is occuring with the respect to manufacturing as the process continues to advance in automation and jobs that cannot be automated are moved to countries with lower labor costs. As in the past, the workforce in this great capitalist society will adapt... the question is when and how. Many regions and communities that understand the workings of a global economy will likely realize that competeing between local municipalities for new factories, etc by offering bigger and bigger tax incentives is not sustainable. A better model is to pool regional resources to attract a better workforce through better services and a positive business climate to support long-term sustainable and taxable growth, improve quality of life, and support a positive cycle of improvement and increased marketability through cooperation and sharing of resources.
To conclude a bit of a disjointed rant, unions must be continually checked to ensure that they are not effectively inflating their wages to the point where we are now. The guarantees and wages negotiated for all levels in the union are finally revealed to be much higher than the market dictates, and the burden that the outlandish benefits and high wages are placing on union facilities and companies is too much to bear. None of the union employees/retirees should be forced to pay for the elimination of these garuanteed benefits while union management continues to collect outrageous wages. Pointing a finger at auto execs for thier high salaries is like the pot calling the kettle black... the unions negotiated their way into this and screwed former members to get out of it. A sad story indeed for all the individuals involved--especially these folks who the power of many was supposed to protect.
(Message edited by Planner_727 on March 01, 2007)
(Message edited by Planner_727 on March 01, 2007) |
Christos
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 9:49 am: | |
Here is a VERY interesting article. Check this out:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ opinion/305206_colehealth27.ht ml
Its an owner of a west coast grocery chain, basically making a lot of the points we have made. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 481
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:08 pm: | |
Jjaba: You're correct about the public's negative attitude towards W-M. "The W-M Effect" has a very interesting analysis of the issue. Most of W-M's customers have a negative view of the company (dingy stores, long waits at check-out etc.) W-M must look at the results of such surveys, than look at its sales figures, and say "so what." Home Depot is starting to have very negative PR, for many of the same reasons. The HD store at I-75 and 12 Mile has been one of the highest grossing, profitable stores in the chain. Then Lowe's opened up next door last year and is severely damaging HD at that location. We've switched our business from that HD store to the Lowe's next door for one reason; Lowe's customer service is 10 times better.. We buy a lot of stuff there. It's going to be interesting to see how HD reacts. Lowe's has guts and confidence to open next door to HD at that location, and it arguably overp[aid for the land and tore down existing manufacturing buildings tp do so.
Christos: Interesting article. Many businesses, competitors of W-M, have gone thru the same thing, I'm sure. What would happen if the owner went to the employees (or the union, as required) and said "If I'm to stay in business, I can only pay you $1.00/hr more than W-M pays, and I have to cut health insurance benefits considerably, and that's assuming I can get my suppliers to cut their prices to help save this business. And, I'll cut my compensation substantially as well. What would happen in your opinion? Union? Employees?
The owner in the article stated "W-M dumps their health care costs onto the taxpayers." That's nonsense. There is no law that compels an employer to pay health care costs of employees. Why doesn't he and the union do the same thing, assuming the guy is in a serious survival mode.
The question of W-M's govt subsidies has been mentioned here a lot. Check out the link to www.missouri... in my post #467 above. Then, click on "Data" and the scroll down to "Partial list of subsidies" for an interesting, union supported list of most of W-M's govt subsidies. What you'll find are tax abatements, enterprise zone grants etc. W-M does not receive one "subsidy" not available to and used equally by an unending lists of manufacturers, retailers etc across the country.
Want a good, unbiased view of Detroit from very smart people? (Keep in mind W-M would open a store on Zug Island if it thought it could make a profit.) The COD should tell W-M to pick out any land in the City and the City would give it to them (a la DCX Jefferson plant.) Tell them they do not have to pay RE taxes for 15 years. Tell them the City would pay for job training for up to 400 employees. Throw in the kitchen sink. What do y'all thing W-M would do? Wonder if the COD has done that already. If W-M passses under those circumstances, the disclosure of its reasons for doing so w/ be worth more than some $10 million study the City could buy. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4921
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 2:12 pm: | |
Christos, and 3rd World, excllent discussions.
The Red State of Washington example is exactly a story of capitalism laid bare. The owner of the regional chain trying to compete with his values and the union values and benefits. Wal-Mart swooped into that welfare state and ate employers benefits like there's no tomorrow. The state gladly helped them out.
Even the Red State of Washington can't protect anybody who can't compete. Michigan can't protect GM or Fords any better. Here, jjaba faults the business owner. He's got 28 stores, Wal-Mart has 10,000 stores. Imagine the difference in clout when one guy is buying NW line-caught salmon from Indians and the other owns salmon farms in Chile.
One guy buys Washington apples from old buddies while the other sells apples cheaper from New Zealand. One guy buys a truckload of bananas from the Pike Place Market while the other owns a fucking fleet of banana boats.
Comparing apples and oranges in the same marketplace.
Much larger chains like Safeway, Fred Meyers, Winco, Albertsons have had to adjust big-time to Wal-Mart in the Pacific NW. One way to cope is to merge. Kroger bought Fred Meyers, Albertsons was bought by 3 chains. Safeways gobbled up Domincks, etc. Bigger buying power and niche marketing helped them. Look how Macy's ate up Daytons, Hudsons, Fields, Meier and Frank, etc.
Detroit knows the history. Where's Packards, Hudsons, Stuedebakers, and Oakland cars today?
Last time jjaba looked, not a damn buggy whip company is left in Detroit either. The Coach- making survivors all went with the gas engine boys.
Nobody asked for buggy whips anymore.
jjaba. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 347
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 8:38 am: | |
The first one to be opened in a slum will be at Plymouth and Middlebelt in Livonia. There are now many buildings and homes boarded up and the population is declining with for sale signs everywhere.
Sure, I could move to Canton, but why? It's no better there. The truth is that the entire state of Michigan is turning into a large slum because our leaders in Michigan are supporting tax increases as opposed to bringing back our economy by attracting decent paying jobs and increased opportunities for everyone.
Our leaders are out of touch with reality and live in a fantasy world. They need to be replaced, so DY'ers get out and vote.
And be sure to support the Transportation Riders United efforts to get light rail service if you want. This is America, where we can all vote and I'm not moving because I already live in the best country in the World. Sure, I could move to France and have great mass transit but instead I want to help SMART and DDOT and everyone else who wants to support these public transit agencies.
I tried to get Wal-Mart and city council to support SMART but my efforts failed. But so what? I did it to help out Detroit and not me. If people don't care about Detroit then indeed our state will decline even more and soon we will see shacks and slums surrounding our large cities.
Our country will be like France and Detroit will be like Paris. The great transit system in Paris did not cure poverty and mass transit right here in Detroit will not cure poverty also. Thus, I publicly challenge the top leaders of MDOT, SEMCOG and the Transportation Riders United to a series of public television and newspaper debates to bring back our economy by moving goods and people safely at the lowest cost to meet minimum industry standards.
So, please post comments on this because it's absolutely true that Wal-Mart in Livonia is a slum unless they support SMART. They tore down a federally funded bus shelter and will not pay to put it back. This is corporate welfare. Wal-Mart gets away with it because lots of people shop there and do not protest the open neglect of their top leaders who ignored the concerns of the Livonia residents who tried to save SMART and area jobs. We should all stop shopping at Wal-Mart in Livonia until they post bus schedules at Plymouth and Middlebelt road to support the few remaining DDOT buses and support the efforts of those who want to bring back SMART and fight for those who qualify for ADA funding.
(Message edited by Trainman on March 03, 2007)
(Message edited by Trainman on March 03, 2007) |
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