Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » Sprawl: a compact history « Previous Next »
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Hybridy
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Username: Hybridy

Post Number: 70
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

since the lodge is closed and telegraph was my place to get groceries haircut n other misc goods, i decided to roll down to the new fairlane "power center" off of oakman and 39 to see if it would fulfill my retail desires
holy shit
i thought hall road was bad
i mean it is the king
but this beast can hold its own
meijer
target
barnes n noble
bed bath beyond
panera
longhorn
olga's
chilis
just to name a few
scary
if u haven't checked it out already
i suggest all you suburban lovers go revel in all your glory

read this http://www.kunstler.com/Mags_B ruegmann.html
then go
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 565
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So I guess this means that Mr. Kunstler didn't enjoy Mr. Bruegmann's book and - I'm really going out on a limb here - I'm also guessing that you didn't buy a copy of it at the Barnes and Noble.

Is this a great country or what? We're free to take our money and spend it wherever we want.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2410
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kunstler is awesome.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1333
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice haiku, Hybridy.
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 1038
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 7:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Nice haiku, Hybridy.



I think he was more influenced by this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E e_cummings
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Ro_resident
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Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 206
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Technically, the two developments would be considered infill/reclamation. I would rather keep the term 'sprawl' to define developments at the suburban fringe.

Portions of the development took over the former VA hospital site, other parts reclaimed portions of a landfill.

If I remember correctly, deed restrictions would not allow the splitting of the old VA site for housing.

Please note, I never said the development was pretty, or that it was my favorite.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 963
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Admit it RO you like the goofy Looney Tune Sized entrances of the stores up on the garbage dump! My biggest question is, who would want to drink the water at the resturants built up there?
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2124
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.robertbruegmann.com /_images/reviews/Boston%20Glob e.pdf



THE OTHER SIDE
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 467
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruegmann is trying to tell us that "Really folks, Dog shit tastes good!"

Har.
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Michmeister
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Username: Michmeister

Post Number: 106
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

20,000,000 flies can`t be wrong!
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2125
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your saying that dog shit tatses good futurecity no where at all did Bruegger even allude to that_

He said people want choices............what a crazy idea
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 106
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Choices? But every major intersection in suburbia has the same strip mall with the same stores in it. Wheres the choices?
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 468
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no choice fool. One option and one option only in this state: the hot steamy dog shit of sprawling suburbia.

Give us real choice, and then talk to me.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2128
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fuck you.Since you want to make disparaging remarks by calling me a fool I return the compliment. It takes a fairly simple mind to understand that choice means options.That is I may choose different then you. If you comprehend at a basic level(I am confident you do) then you understand that your rigid agendacized dogma is the choice you want to make for others........I'll make my own goddamn choices. If you wanna live at Warren and Conner or 32 mile and vandyke that is your business. Open up your stuffy mildewed mind.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 469
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well now we see that you're just a dick head. You're too blind or too stupid to realize that you don't have a choice. Your (our) choice is between shit and shit. Plain and simple. All the decisions are made for you. Open your eyes fool.
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 186
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent...late night arguing....exactly why I joined this forum.
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 92
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shit and more shit? given that our current urban situation is bloated with problems and lack of real choices i think it is a stretch to call it all shit.
I agree that our choices are sub par at best but hell here in suburbia we have endless resources at our fingertips. Countless homes and any product or food we could need. Most of the stores are clean and well run. I think most common citizens of Detroit living during the 1920's in a wonderful functioning Detroit would shit themselves if the seen a modern Meijer with all of those goods under one roof!? SO MEijer and Wal Mart occupy every major interchange in the suburbs and it sucks that there is not more choices and options but hell at least we have those stores. I have seen all of these original town centers in Macomb invest heavily in their town centers with road and lighting improvements and added parking. But none of them is nearly as successful as the many shopping centers that now dot the landscape and they are not nearly as welcoming. We live in a different world and though we all may not like it the auto and mega store chain world has taken its hold on our modern cities. Most people can complain about the lack of choice and aesthetic quite easily but residents continue to flock outward and not just in Michigan.(Go look up Anthem Parkside! I dont get it but hey it sells!) There is no question that government subsidies sprawl but it isnt like the FHA days anymore. The problems today are just different than they were in the past. no one here knows what will happen for sure to exurbia, weather our cities will continue to expand or not. We are creeping the developed land further out which has been going on for 100+ years and of course it is faster in an auto dominant society. I wonder if some guy struggling living at Davison and Ryan would consider Clinton Twp. or Auburn Hills a choice between shit and shit?
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 470
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I wonder if some guy struggling living at Davison and Ryan would consider Clinton Twp. or Auburn Hills a choice between shit and shit?"

Shit and shit with corn kernels.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2129
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 7:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a great intellectual debate you bring to the table futurecity. I now see no one else deserves to live in the urban shangra-la that you must inhabit_ how could we possibly be worthy.

So in the meanwhile this dickhead is damn glad that there is a choice and that meddling fucks like you are bluster and nothing more.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 471
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like you're standing eye-ball deep in dog shit every day. What a waste. Too bad. I can see why you would want to defend it. You have to keep telling yourself it "tastes good!", or you would feel like a total loser.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 472
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And why am I a "meddling fuck?"

I wish we had choice, as I think you do. And what I am saying is that we have only ONE choice in this state - the shit that we have all around us.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2132
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

SO MEijer and Wal Mart occupy every major interchange in the suburbs and it sucks that there is not more choices and options but hell at least we have those stores.



If your main goal in life is to acquire as much crap as cheaply as possible, then knock yourself out.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 570
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moderator, please flush this thread down the crapper.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2130
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I live in ann arbor future city. And sorry to disappoint you but it is actually quite nice here; nothing shitty about it.

Ya see I believe that if people want Meijers or Target or Walmart or whatever they want they should have it. I don't want you or anyone else telling me how I should perceive things. I am not oblivious to sprawl.I am however willing to listen to educated reasonable people in the field ala Bruegger convey reasonable educated information. I, and others are capable of processing that info and then making up our own minds.

You have an agenda. And your agenda involves the very offensive idea of thinking that the rest of us are incapable of thinking for ourselves. I am willing to listen and read an decide for myself.I really don't buy into your dogmatic ...surrounded by shit line.........
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2140
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^But Walmart and Target and Meijer don't have a functional business plan unless they receive BILLIONS in subsidies from the rest of us. You want it--you pay for the damn road upgrades, sewer extensions, and medical care for their employees. Never mind the additional water and sewage treatment facilities that will be required, since the oversized parking lot will completely throw off the hydrograph of the watershed.

But hey, you can get a pair of underwear for a buck and a half!
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 182
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

have you ever heard of a "retention pond"?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2141
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Well, shit! Let's just screw with nature even more!

Yes, as an engineer, I've heard of retention ponds. That doesn't give us license to pave everything over. Have you ever heard of "natural habitat" and "productive farmland"?
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 183
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you live in a straw hut and farm the land? Do you walk or take horse drawn carriages everywhere? Whether you like it or not just participating in modern society makes you as much to blame as anybody else.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5517
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Suburban Sprawl = BORDOM!
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 473
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My point is CL Dink Brain - I guess I have to spell it out for you: Our ONE and ONLY choice is car-oriented development. At least for the past 50 years.

Development Designed For The Ease Of Automobile Use = Shit
Development Designed For People = Good

All of our public money/regulation goes to creating and subsidizing the former, giving us no choice. I say half of all public money/regulation and subsidy should go towards the latter.

Then we would have choice. Then we can let the people decide.

Sounds like you're against choice.

And for the record, the center of Ann Arbor was built for human beings, so that = GOOD! The areas away from the center of Ann Arbor were designed and built not for humans first, but instead for the ease of automobile use = SHIT!
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2131
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://72.14.203.104/search?q= cache:_oLoc0WCTRoJ:www.perc.or g/pdf/guide_sprawl.pdf+MYTH+OF +SPRAWL&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl= us
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2132
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The center of AA was built in the fucking 1800's how in the hell do you come up with this designed for people crap? It was designed for the time ya schmuck...........actually it was designed hodge podge they had no regulations then.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2142
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^CL--always the academic.

I also couldn't help but notice that the article you linked only cites right-wing "free market" pro-sprawl wackos like Randal O'Toole, Wendell Cox, and Ronald Utt--hardly unbiased academics. I thought it was particularly brilliant that the author cited herself a couple times.

If you want to consider sprawl equivalent to prosperity, then consider me determined to remain poor.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2133
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't care to be an academic Dan it might be over rated. My point is that when futurecity spews the dogma that he/she does I aint buying it. And a lot of others are not buying it either.

There are dozens of valid observations about growth patterns. Futurecity and you are not the final word nor are either of you the only credible source_ others just as knowledgable as you actually might disagree. That is why I linked one source which I found in about a seconds time.And believe me there is plenty more where that came from.I was not thinking whether it was right wing or not;just that there are other points of view.

Futurecity wants us to believe he/she is credible.And then posts adolescent crap.Honestly the asessment of Ann Arbor is just plain dumb. .
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 841
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whether I agree with him or not, I think this thread proves Futurecity is not a credible source. Anyone whose entire argument consists of "x = shit" is not credible in my book.

And regardless, you do have a choice: live somewhere that isn't sprawl. If that is outside the Detroit area, so be it. That's your choice. Just because it's a hard choice, or a choice you're too scared to make (for whatever reason), doesn't mean it's not a choice. Also, there are plenty of ways to live in the Detroit area and not participate in sprawl. I did it when I lived there.

Now I live in Chicago. I live in the city, and use my car less than once a week. As mentioned in other threads, Chicago has plenty of sprawl. Schaumburg comes to mind, it's the typical comparison. You know what? I choose not to go there. There is nothing there, save for Ikea, that I can't patronize somewhere else, likely in the city or inner-ring burbs. The EXACT same cannot be said for Detroit as far as being able to patronize the exact same businesses, but you can get most everything you need without going to Lakeside, Somerset, or GLC.

:shrug:
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 509
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I live in ann arbor future city. And sorry to disappoint you but it is actually quite nice here; nothing shitty about it. "

Actually your wrong CH, there is this football team there that is quite shitty when January rolls around. And to believe I rooted for you losers..
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 474
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL - Clearly you must live in the SHIT part of Ann Arbor.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1552
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whether I agree with him or not, I think this thread proves that some of Futurecity's posts are hilarious. (Some are over the top, but you have to admit "shit and shit with corn kernels" was a good one.)
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2134
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure great stuff...........if your twelve fucking years old.

Btw Futureperson there are no shitty parts of Ann Arbor.I can walk to a chinese restaurant, a bar/ restaurant, a dry cleaner, a high end specialty food store, a bank (two of em)a music store, a coffee shop, a pizza place, another restaurant, a video store ........hell I can't list all of it.......and oh by the way every one of those places is less than a five minute walk from my door.........Forgot a krogerx2 and the bus stop right out my door_ the shit part of Ann Arbor.

But best of all_ I can hop in my big old eight cylinder automobile pull out the driveway and within seconds be gliding down the road.......I love my car.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 515
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ann Arbor is a nice sub...city there is no doubting that. And there if I can recall are no "shit" parts of the city. Quite a nice little college town.

And to prove Focusontheds point you can live in an area that doesn’t participate in the evil of sprawl and be quite content.

For instance, I can walk to a Chinese restaurant, a bank, two barber shops, a pet store, a pizza hut, about 10 other restaurants, a credit union, a cd shop, and a blockbuster video....all in the city of Detroit..<gasp>...and the cool part is I doubt ill get killed along the way. And if I don’t want to walk I can hop in my performance luxury sedan made right here in the US and drive on those extremely wide Detroit streets to where I need to go. Does that now make the city more or less shitty?
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 475
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Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, you're a CarHead, that explains a lot. Perhaps your screen name should be Carlover.

"there are no shitty parts of Ann Arbor"

Only a Carlover could speak such a statement.

Oh there is Plenty O' Shit in Ann Arbor. Open your eyes and look at the truth. The area outside of the center is littered with shit development - Eisenhower "Parkway", "Briarwood" Mall, Office "parks" to the south, fast-food drive thrus, acres upon acres of parking, strip centers, garage-houses and on and on. And on some more.

The part of Ann Arbor that is total shit is the part that was built for cars first and people second.

I can picture you in your monster V8 driving down Eisenhower on your way to Briarwood and up to your eyebrows in shit thinking "aaaahh, now this is living."
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2135
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yeah ike parkway is really shitty.I bet all those people that work in those office parks are practically suicidal.That would include all music guide, dozens of um bldgs, probably some UM related start ups..........whoops sorry comrade you must be hitchin up the work horses getting ready to clear the snow so you can make it to town tomorrow........

Mayor s ya wanna compare the chances of you getting murdered in yor neighborhood compared to mine? I didn't think so.There are more murders in a weeks time in Detroit then there is in Ann Arbor in a twenty five year span of time........and that is a literal statement.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8296
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Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Btw Futureperson there are no shitty parts of Ann Arbor.



AA is a nice city and all but to claim there are no shitty areas is pushing it. Looks like we all wear blinders to some extent.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2136
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Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Name the shitty parts jt1. There are some public housing projects in A2 maybe six or seven of em and they are mostly people pushed out by gentrification that is about it. There aint one neighborhood in AA that I feel unsafe in.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 517
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you missed the point. And that’s obvious the murder rate will be lower in AA its a glorified suburb not a major city like Detroit is, so comparing their murder rates is silly.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2137
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Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did not bring the topic up you did mayor. And since I am here I will say to futurecity I am most definitely not a carhead.......... but I do love my car
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 970
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

its amazing how a thread can start off about sprawl and end up bashing AA.

What does this have to do with the garbage dump turned stripmall?
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 476
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a thread about development. Lets get back on track, folks.

Development built for cars first = Shit
Development built for people first = Good

It is possible for either type to be built anywhere. However, government regulations, MDOT, CarHeads, "Developers", Huge Utility Subsidies, etc, etc, have mandated that 90% of development in this state in the last 40 years be built for cars first. Which is why most of this place looks like total shit.

In the overall scheme though, places like Ann Arbor look pretty good, compared to most. Only half of Ann Arbor was built for cars first, so only half of it looks like total shit. The other half was built for people first and is quite nice. Unlike sprawl conglomerations such as Canton, Sterling Heights, etc. which were built solely with cars at the center of every design, development, use and task, and will forever be hell-holes of total shit.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2139
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

half of ann arbor built for cars.............truly a pathetic statement.You have no credibility.You might have decent ideas but idiotic statements like that............anyhow it is time for others to weigh in I am done.
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Complaining about sprawl now is like closing the barn door after the horse is gone. Detroit has been sprawling since the beginning. Ribbon farms-early form of sprawl. :-)
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 575
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Pam. Right from the get-go in the teens and twenties, Detroit expanded using the "single family residence/30 foot wide lot" subdivision development model. That pattern has continued (with wider and wider lots) as development expanded without regard for city limits and other political boundaries.

Don't like it? Quitcherbitch'n on non-influential forums and become an activist. Change has to happen at the state legislative level. Your only other option is to move if it bothers you that much.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2148
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Single-family homes do not define "sprawl". Low density development, a dependency on the automobile, and segregated land uses defines "sprawl". Those who like to ignore history might recall that even Detroit's neighborhoods of single family homes had walkable commercial strips and an extensive streetcar system. Even now, with a decimated population, Detroit still has a much higher population density than most of its crappy suburban spawn.

It's real easy to say, "If you don't like sprawl, move somewhere else." There are some major problems with this:

1) Even though I live in a walkable urban neighborhood, my tax dollars are still going toward subsidizing your crappy new suburban shit by paying for new highways in horse pastures, among other things, when that money really needs to be used for more transit lines where people already live and work

2) When people who don't want sprawl DO start leaving, as they have been leaving Michigan for some time now, you all wonder where the hell the jobs are, and why your local economy sucks.

3) I love Ann Arbor, but half of it IS shit. I would definitely be suicidal if I had to work on Eisenhower Parkway. But Citylover would have me believe working in some Soviet-styled precast bunker is preferable to working in Georgetown....

Curious to know how often Citylover actually does walk to any of those places he mentions....
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2140
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With my feet Dan......glad to hear you love Ann Arbor.
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Hybridy
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Username: Hybridy

Post Number: 71
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

whomever thinks that meijer is a step up from way back when is kidding themselves. yea they have all the crap in one location, but have u looked at the ethnic foods section? back when we had neighborhoods that were dominated by a certain ethnicity we could go and get all of our favorite german, polish, italian what have you specialty imports. now i have to go to fuckin 15 and crooks for my delicious hortex orange mixer.
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 710
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Single-family homes do not define "sprawl". Low density development, a dependency on the automobile, and segregated land uses defines "sprawl".

Excellent statement and 100% accurate. So many proponents of conventional suburban design prop up Manhattan-level density as the model that anti-sprawl folks would impose on the country. It's a completely invalid straw-man argument.
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 258
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

try to get a copy of the March, 2007 issue of National Geographic. Great article on Orlando and the future of sprawl.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 850
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kunstler is a god. Read Geography of Nowhere, a book that changed my life.

DaninDC is very smart and usually right, but his dirty secret is that he lives in Reston.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2160
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray, please shoot me if I even think about living in Reston. No amount of money or Kool Aid could make me want to live out there. FWIW, I actually live on Capitol Hill.

Home From Nowhere is a decent sequel by Kunstler, although it seems like it has a bit more of a pissy attitude. I've been re-reading The City in Mind, also by Kunstler, which is a series of personal, historical, and cultural observations of several world cities.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Kunstler also has a pretty decent blog--I'm a big fan.

www.kunstler.com

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