  Sirrealone Member Username: Sirrealone Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2007 |
Sucks to hear. This was a fun place. Though when we went a few weeks back it was dead....we had to walk up to an employee and make sure that they were actually open (they were). This place just wasn't able sustain itself outside of baseball season....I think location has a lot to do with it since you figure that the area is surrounded by parking lots. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070207/ENT 05/702070336/1035 Fifth Avenue closes downtown Rent too high; other locations open February 7, 2007 BY KELLEY L. CARTER FREE PRESS MUSIC WRITER Fifth Avenue Downtown quietly closed a few weeks ago. The upscale bar and pool hall located inside Comerica Park was one of downtown Detroit's premier entertainment areas, and regularly hosted large crowds at live music events and private parties. It was one of three bars in the Fifth Avenue family, which also includes downtown Royal Oak and Novi locations -- neither of which is closing. During Tigers games, you could get into Fifth Avenue without a ticket to the game, and it proved to be a prime spot during Super Bowl XL and the Tigers' run to the World Series. The bar spanned three floors, including a rooftop deck. An attorney for Fifth Avenue's owners said high rent forced the closure, but management did not return phone calls. Ilitch Holdings, Inc. -- home to the Tigers, Red Wings and Little Caesars among others -- owns the space. "What we're doing right now is ... working to secure a new tenant. We have had several parties that have expressed interest," said Karen Cullen, vice president of corporate communications. "We don't have a specific timeline. But anytime you've got a space like that open you'd like to see it full as soon as possible. We'll try to get it filled with a good tenant for everyone involved." | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 62 Registered: 12-2003 |
Not surprising but sad. The location and placement of the entrance was the killer. Unless you already knew it was there, you couldn't see it standing on Woodward. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11214 Registered: 10-2003 |
HOOTERS! HOOTERS! HOOTERS! | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5490 Registered: 02-2004 |
HAH! Those folks in Illitchville wanted to raise the rent for their profit. Looks like 5th Ave. Would have to find another place where rent is dirt cheap. Try the Madison Theatre Building its nice and cool inside. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2398 Registered: 02-2005 |
The rent must have been really high to force them out with so many large crowds expected next season. Way to go, Illitch! Perhaps they want a location that will give them more year-round business. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 365 Registered: 04-2006 |
Yeah, that was a very bad location for it. Someone came to ask me for directions to that place while I was standing outside of Comerica Park one day and I couldn't help her. She gave me told me the address but since I knew it was the address of Comerica Park (because I used to work there) I figured she had gotten it wrong. Neither of us ever realized that we were only standing several feet away from it. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 1124 Registered: 02-2004 |
My husband and I went to a game last year, our seats were directly in the sun. About halfway through the game, seeking relief, we wandered into 5th. For the exact same amount of money (excluding tip) we got two excellent burgers and two microbrews than what we paid for two tepid beers and two dogs. Jerry Lee Lewis was playing on their sound system and we didn't miss much of the game and we sure didn't miss the sunstroke. Too bad - next place will need a lot more signage. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1020 Registered: 10-2003 |
i wouldn't be so quick to blame ilitch on this one. the owners defaulted on their $200,000 loan from the DDA, making all of 2 payments in the past 2.5 years. (Message edited by rsa on February 07, 2007) (Message edited by rsa on February 07, 2007) | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 1705 Registered: 11-2003 |
This is too bad. But with all the square footage they had, they sure would need lots of people, all the time, to keep it going.It was hard to find and many people didn't even know it was there. Maybe a different concept there will work better | ||
Dj_tom_t Member Username: Dj_tom_t Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2005 |
That is a perfect location for an ESPN Zone...imo | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 367 Registered: 04-2006 |
I agree about the ESPNZone... but the Illitches would never go for it. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 417 Registered: 03-2006 |
I think that the only venture that can truely be successfull in the off-season in that location is something with alot of name recognition...so an ESPN Zone would probably work, even though I think there are better downtown locations | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2007 |
BW3 | ||
Everydayislikesunday Member Username: Everydayislikesunday Post Number: 299 Registered: 12-2004 |
Sad to hear. I guess it's a reality of the business world...if you're not making a profit, is it feasible to stay open? We went to the Park bar last night, about 9, and there was, literally, besides the bartender, no one | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 826 Registered: 02-2006 |
That's because you were at a downtown bar at 9:00 on a Tuesday. | ||
Saintme Member Username: Saintme Post Number: 22 Registered: 08-2006 |
Way off topic, but I never understood why Buffalo Wild Wings is so often referred to as BW3. There are only two W's in the name. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 369 Registered: 04-2006 |
Because of the original name of the chain, Buffalo Wild Wings & Weck: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B W3 | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8267 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Does the DDA have any recourse to collect the money. While business may have been slow now they were doing very good business 2 years ago. Did they just choose not to pay? | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1022 Registered: 10-2003 |
it looks that way jt. DDA's recourse is that they're suing the owners. excerpt: quote: | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 722 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: That is more like making ONLY two payments in almost two years. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1023 Registered: 10-2003 |
andy has the legal doc posted over at h f detroit , but i can't seem to provide a link here. the thread is almost at the bottom of the general discussions page (for those who are interested). [i can't seem to even write the name of the site. somebody has too much time on their hands...] | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 829 Registered: 02-2006 |
I like fudge, I like it to be hot when it's on ice cream, and I also enjoy Detroit. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2007 |
There goes the loophole. Two people purchase two tigers tickets and go into game, person one calls person three who meets them inside 5th ave with two ticket stubs. To get back into the game all you need is a ticket stub with the right date, so person one and three walk into the game. Person three gets in without ever purchasing a ticket. Yeah it's a lot of hassel and not really worth it, except for the sold out all star game! | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 46 Registered: 09-2006 |
It was a nice place 2 meet babes, and that's the truth! AND they had free Salsa on Sunday! The VIP section where they'd have their private events, if U knew somebody who worked there and U were cool with that person, U could check it out. Which explains why the pool tables on the other side were larger and lavish-with a capital L! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 634 Registered: 06-2006 |
You all act like Illich is somehow damaged because Fifth Avenue moved out...in reality, he probably expected it The Tigers are set to draw the largest crowds next season since Illich took over, which is why he is in a position to up the rent, and if a small potatoes bar like Fifth Avenue can't pay for the space, then so be it...someone else will, guaranteed... | ||
Reetz12 Member Username: Reetz12 Post Number: 133 Registered: 09-2005 |
Yelloweyes...the old ticket swap....worked for allstar game and playoffs....you have to love 70 year old man working the door! | ||
Rusty Member Username: Rusty Post Number: 439 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have to admit, thats ways easier than squeezing in through the bars in right center field.. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2377 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: LMAO!!! | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 50 Registered: 09-2006 |
LMAO!!! Fnemecek, LMAO [laughing my @$$ off], I love it! HOOTERS! HOOTERS! HOOTERS! Next thing we know, we'll be singing that Bubba Sparxxx tune; BOOTY BOOTY BOOTY BOOTY ROCKING EVERYWHERE!!!!! After this the 5th would've wished it stayed around. Like I said, it's nice place 2 meet women! | ||
Blort Member Username: Blort Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2007 |
This is excellent news. Now if only Comerica Park would close permanently. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 202 Registered: 01-2005 |
BW3 or a Fridays would do well there | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 270 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yeah, Friday's is an excellent choice (sarcasm enter here). There is more to life than chains. Why would you even consider polluting that excellent space like that? | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 301 Registered: 11-2005 |
As my girlfriend said last night when she heard the news, "They're closing the Oakland County Embassy?!?!"  | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 745 Registered: 12-2003 |
The only part of the downtown Fifth I liked was the roof deck. The rest of the place left little to be desired; it was was totally void of any decor, atmosphere or experience. If you weren't down there for a ballgame, there would be no other reason to consider the place. No huge loss in my opinion. Might be smart for Ill-itch to divide that large, somewhat disjointed space, into two different bars each with a slightly different appeal, creating a little more interest and synergy. Wonder what they'll do for opening day which is little more than a month from now? Probably just roll in a few kegs and serve for the day. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 271 Registered: 11-2003 |
"it was was totally void of any decor, atmosphere or experience." Are we talking about the same place? I have to disagree with you here. You may not have liked the place but it had plenty of decor and atmosphere common to their other locations. Where else do you get a view of the city like that, with large salt water fish tanks and plenty of pool tables, a decent stage and plenty of room? Sure, it might not have been like places in NYC, but not much else around that can compare in the Detroit area. The placed served it's purpose. I guess rolling out a few kegs will be better. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 305 Registered: 11-2005 |
Sorry, Rrl, but Rjlj is right. It definitely had some class. Maybe not my preferred kind of experience, but it certainly had decor and atmosphere. Rrl and Rjlj. Sounds like dueling wookiees or something. | ||
Wsugrad Member Username: Wsugrad Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2006 |
That place was NEVER fun! | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 309 Registered: 11-2005 |
Never said it was fun. We said it had a decor and atmosphere. Never said we liked the decor and atmosphere, either. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 203 Registered: 01-2005 |
Regardless how you all feel about restaurant chains they have no problems paying their rent. I happen to like Fridays and I frequent the one out in Southfield and you know what I see all the time, people from Detroit spending alot of money there all the time. I also see alot of people that I know that live downtown there as well,whether they are hanging out,watching the game or just drinking the place is always full and the atmosphere is nice. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 859 Registered: 08-2006 |
I'm sad to hear this place closed. I'm sure it wasn't a Detroit institution, but it was still good to have downtown. I think Friday's would be good there. It's a good family place. If you don't want to go to Friday's well then go somewhere else downtown. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 1227 Registered: 02-2004 |
Yeah, a Fridays. That way people can have the exact same experience, no matter where they go, anywhere in America. Same crap on the walls, same bland menu, same blaring generic pop music. I loved that Fifth Avenue. Oh well. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 861 Registered: 08-2006 |
I don't like the place either, but it seems like a place that could do well. Milwaukee's Miller Park has one and its doing great. Listen, if they could have some great new place open up there then great. If they can't find anybody like that then get the chain. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2003 |
I am sure the suburbanites will drive down in droves to visit the new TGI Fridays in Comerica Park, all while driving past 2 or 3 other TGI Friday's on thier way downtown. You guys need to demand better. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 864 Registered: 08-2006 |
"I am sure the suburbanites will drive down in droves to visit the new TGI Fridays in Comerica Park" No, but it is a place for them to go to if they're downtown for a game or a concert. People are usually afraid to try out new things. Give them something they trust. Get some money from a successful business downtown. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 205 Registered: 01-2005 |
Yeah well in lew of what just happened to Fifth Avenue I wonder what company is willing to pay whatever rent they couldn't afford to pay that isn't a chain. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 1232 Registered: 02-2004 |
Isn't that what the Hard Rock Cafe is for? Giving the people what they already have? | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 209 Registered: 01-2005 |
I say open one up and lets watch what happens,if people don't like it,it will go the way of alot of other failed businesses in Detroit and close,then will you be happy? I say give people what they want..... | ||
Foodandwine Member Username: Foodandwine Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2006 |
Working in the realestate industry, many national chains still refuse to approve franchises for Detroit. I have seen many individuals or groups of investors try to get approval for locations in Detroit particulary Downtown and have been denied. The reason "Corporate does not believe it will be profitable"(Buffalo Wild Wings, The Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Applebees and yes even Taco Bell. Rent although a factor is not a driving force. Landlords all around Downtown Detroit are more than willing to work with national tenants to get them in their buildings because of the major improvements that the operator makes. As well as the increase of value it brings to the owners' buildings. These are the types of leases (with national operators) that banks pay on. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 212 Registered: 01-2005 |
These are the requirements for BW3 franchise: Minimum Financial Requirements As with any expanding franchise system, we have thousands of people interested in buying a franchise. To measure a candidate's qualifications, we have established both net worth and liquid asset requirements. These requirements are per unit to be opened. The required liquid assets are a minimum of $300,000 per store and a net worth per store of $900,000. The minimum Area Development requirement per new franchisee is two stores. Therefore the minimum unencumbered liquid assets required are $600,000 and net worth of $1,800,000. We also require that no more than 80% of the start-up costs be leveraged; 20% of any single store's start-up costs must be in liquid assets. Real Estate and Site Criteria Location Freestanding pad-site locations, on hard corner End caps 5,000 - 6,000 sq. ft., 120 parking places Excellent signage and visibility Excellent site ingress and egress with traffic signal Seven-day-per-week liquor sales Trade Area Minimum 25,000 population within the 3-mile circle, 80% or greater between the ages of 20 and 50 within the trade area, $30,000 or greater median income within the trade area 20% or greater college-educated within the trade area Minimum daytime/lunch population of 5,000 in the 1-mile circle Traffic Generators Lifestyle or power centers with "big box" anchors; "Old Navy, Petsmart, Kohl's, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc." National casual dining brands in a contiguous restaurant corridor Super Wal-Mart, Super Target Regional, super-regional malls Colleges, universities Healthcare corridors Movie Theaters (Stadium Seating) Traffic Minimum daily traffic count in front of site - 25,000 Minimum daily traffic count on adjacent side street - 10,000 P.M. traffic side, far side of light We do not guarantee leases for franchisees, nor do we negotiate your lease. Operational Requirements Each franchise restaurant location must at all times have a full-time, qualified, experienced General Manager, whom we must approve in advance. The GM must have direct experience in unit-level management in the casual dining environment. The GM's responsibility is that of a senior executive with multi-unit restaurant management experience. If you do not personally have this background and experience, you will be required to have what we call an "Operating Partner." Your Operating Partner will be responsible for operations of your franchised restaurant network. We sometimes have access to qualified individuals whom you may contact about being your Operating Partner. It is your responsibility to secure an Operating Partner if you do not have the substantive experience required. That location wouldn't qualify.  | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 556 Registered: 10-2006 |
Sure does take Detroiters to realize that we are in a GLOBAL market these days. The auto industry is the biggest example, but second to that would have to be that fact that many don't want a national chain to enter the city. Why not? If downtown don't accept globalization, maybe it too will go the way of the big three! | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 213 Registered: 01-2005 |
But I seem to recall alot of praise for the Book-Cadillac Building renovation back into a hotel which happens to be part of a hotel chain chain..... | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2005 |
I agree. With the exception of the Atheneum, all of our higher end hotels in the CBD are chain hotels (granted, that will change with the casino hotels). Where is the outcry that Detroit has lost all of its individuality by having Marriott, Hilton, Holiday Inn and, soon, Westin hotels mucking up our distinctive downtown? | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 33 Registered: 02-2007 |
Don't worry Docmo the only hotel "flags" standing after ten years will be: Marriot(due to GM and only due to GM) Atheneum The casino hotels I'll say that the Westin in the BC will be bankrupt within 2 years after opening. The hilton might have some fight in it due to its location but I doubt it. From what I have been told the Holiday inn is on very shaky grounds with corporate right now and that the flag will be pulled shortly. Wasn't there supposed to be a doubletree somewhere too? I'll give that two years as well. We can argue all day about lofts selling or not but vacancy rates are HARD numbers that corporate flags actually release to each other and right now it is BRUTAL at best and adding 300 to 400 rooms ain't gonna help. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8395 Registered: 10-2003 |
Crowe - Care to publish these numbers you are talking about. I agree that the hotel market is going to be a rough go with the number of hotels going on line but I would like to see some of your numbers. My understanding is the the Hilton garden has been doing well. I just find it hard to believe that companies are investing money (granted the casinos have to) in a market that is so blatantly on the demise. I doubt that you have information that the investors and chains don't have. Are you that intelligent or are they that stupid if it is so obvious. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 144 Registered: 10-2006 |
I would pose the question: "What do the national restaurant chains not know that hotel chains do? Why would there be a market for all of those rooms, but no food chains want to get a piece of the action?" Or maybe the question should be reversed. | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 34 Registered: 02-2007 |
Simple answer: Franchisee costs. Let's say I want to start a Holiday Inn Express in X city. After all the usual costs of securing the property which is X, I go to Holiday Inn and inquire about a Flag. Holiday Inn sends out an "inspector" to see what needs to be done to the property to make it worthy of a hotel. That inspection cost upwards of 25 grand. Next holiday inn tells me the results of the inspection, such as "you must have an elevator" "you must have an eating space in the lobby for the free breakfast" I then make the necessary changes again with a cost of X (I am using x because these costs usually don't involve paying them to corporate) Now I got the basics, so lets furnish the place shall we? Need new pillows, beds, chairs, desks and what not. In order to open under the Holiday Inn flag I have to buy preapproved items. Take a guess who I have to buy them from? That's right Holiday inn or one of its subsidiaries. Next, we have to have a computerized reservation system. Guess who I have to buy the operating system from? Now here is the real kicker-- Besides all those other costs, I have to give Holiday Inn 5% of my gross, yes my gross. You then should ask "how do they know what your gross is? Answer: It's their operating system and people usually book online thru the corporate site or thru the 1800 number. Then comes the real beauty in the whole hotel franchise thing. You sign a ten year contract but they send out what some people call "secret shoppers" These shoppers evaluate the performance of the hotel. If you get a bad rating, you get a letter from corporate and they continuosly send out "shoppers" to determine the progress. Not enough progress? They can pull the flag right away. Contrast that with a bar or a restaurant in which they have no Idea how many beers you sold or how many burgers you sold. So the franchise fee is set in stone with limited up front start up costs sent to corporate so..... The hotels get a ton of money up front in which if the hotel does not perform they simply pull the flag and keep the money. They are willing to take the hit regarding the brand damage from a crappy hotel because they can pull the flag very quickly vs. A bar/eatery chain which doesn't get that much up front for start up and still gets hit with brand damage. Also most chains will only pull their name out of a place after the franchisee has not paid his fees for several months. So If I go to westin and say "hey I want to start a hotel in Detroit" They say "hell yeah!" because they don't care how the hotel does because there is so much cash to them for start up. | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 35 Registered: 02-2007 |
JT1-- I have to do some checking but I think it was 23% last year. (I don't think super bowl was taken into account) The ADR was also brutal but skewed because of the Marriot/GM thing. If the marriot charges $250 a night to GM who cares? it's all the same money. (Message edited by croweblack on February 26, 2007) | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2005 |
Doubletree is supposedly going into the Fort-Selby renovation project. Croweblack, I'd be willing to bet your Westin demise prediction of 2 years is wrong. There will be a built in market for hotel services with the 67 condos. The uniqueness of the BC renovation will bring in enough business over the first few years to keep Westin on board. Weddings/charitable events/etc. held in the upscale renovated Grand Ballroom will provide a somewhat steady stream of occupancy even if the economy continues to suck. It sounds as if we'll be getting a couple of upscale chain restaurants franchises to go along with the Westin hotel franchise | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 570 Registered: 10-2006 |
Don't forget the Sheraton moving into the Ponchartrain Hotel... | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 36 Registered: 02-2007 |
Sorry Docmo, You can't operate a hotel on the basis of 60% occupancy during the weekends of the summer and 20% during the weekdays and down months. The numbers don't add up. I am taking into account your best case scenario regarding "big weddings" and "big corporate events" And then there is Cpaul who interjects that there will be an additional 100 rooms? to a market that is already struggling?(add your namath impressions here) | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 749 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yep- you've stumbled onto something that Starwood hasn't thought of yet Crowe. You better give them a call & tip them off. C'mon dude, the investors and Westin have both performed thorough market surveys, I'm sure they're numbers add up. Ferchill wouldn't drop the kind of money into the project if the numbers didn't work. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 214 Registered: 01-2005 |
What gets me is the people on this forum seem to want Detroit to be their own eclectic hangout free of Corporations,free of franchises blah,blah.....but realistically I would rather see a chain open up and hire 50 from Detroit (which has a better chance of being around for awhile)rather than have some small time operation open up and hire maybe 7 people, you dont believe me? Cafe Detroit had trouble staying open. Thats just not going to cut it,we need franchises,we need strip malls,we need corporations because they offer jobs. These so called Detroit purist need to wake the fuck up and realize that Detroit is more than their own personal hangout,I took a drive down Fenkell today and it looked like some war torn country. One place I never see close up a year and half after they open are liquor stores,they stay around damn near forever because they learned the secret of giving people what they want,its not that there is nobody is spending money in Detroit its because mainstream retailers haven't yet learned how to tap into that consumer market or have wrote them off compeletely........I'm done. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1032 Registered: 10-2003 |
oh boo-freakin'-hoo duperman. you want a chain restaurant, go to the mall. excuse us for demanding a little uniqueness for our city. [do you think that maybe one of the reasons a lot of people have moved into the city recently is to escape corporate homogenization?] it's all really a moot argument anyway; large scale chains won't be in the city for a long time (see an example of corporate demographic requirements above). plus, what would draw people from all over to a place where there are restaurants exactly like them probably closer to their home? | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 38 Registered: 02-2007 |
Rrl- I have seen the surveys (commisioned by one of the new hotels or hotel groups). They all say the same thing--brutal hotel market. Now if there were money to be made, it ain't going to come from running a sustainable hotel, it will be from starting a hotel and gaining the tax credits and other incentives that go along with it. I would probably spend $500,000 on a hotel to get $700,000 in tax credits. That in a nutshell is why Detroit is headed for ruin again. These guys don't care about life after the project is finished. They get their credits and other incentives and walk. Now that I think about it and after hearing the announcement about riverfront,I think I was wrong about the Westin at the BC closing in two years. I think it will be when their tax abatement runs out. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 215 Registered: 01-2005 |
Uniqueness??? Droves of people do not flock to unique places here in Detroit,in my book uniqueness is not a viable business model here in Detroit,maybe in Ann Arbor but no here. Detroit becoming husk of a city,you Detroit purist need to wake up realize that Detroit is 143.0 square miles not some little town with a couple of streets,a few mom and pop stores,soda fountain and a general store. Ride down fenkell one day and you tell me how many unique places have survived or thrived there and then tell me how many havent,whether you all want to realize or not but people like going to TGIF,poeple like going to BW3,that whole "Detroit Should Be Different" mentality isn't going to work here in Detroit.....wake up. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1033 Registered: 10-2003 |
i don't believe anyone here is stopping them from opening. i do believe that these are opinions of what current residents would like to see in their city. you know, those people that will ultimately patronize places that will open up? i guess people should just shut up and be grateful for whatever crap opens up? that people who are currently living here should just shut up and not be allowed an opinion? that we shouldn't have standards or discussion how the future of this city should take shape? man, that's some vision. quote: | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 756 Registered: 12-2003 |
Crowe- You have no idea what you're talking about; and your comments are all speculation and opinion. First off, they're called Market Studies not Surveys. These studies detail the Real Estate Development costs, Market area and neighborhood analysis, Competition, Occupancy projections, Rate analysis, Projections of income and expense, etc. If the project(s) don't make sense financially, they would never get off the ground. No private entity or lender would ever risk that much money without having some assurances of a payback as detailed in the study. Second, NO projects ever get more in tax abatements and credits than they actually cost to develop and construct; it just doesn't happen. Care to share exactly who's "survey" you've seen and presumably read? (Message edited by rrl on February 27, 2007) | ||
Dan Member Username: Dan Post Number: 1361 Registered: 10-2003 |
-State and Federal Historical tax credits can add up to approximately 35% of total development costs. -The building must not change hands for 5 years to make use of historic tax credits.. - Hotel Occupancy rates downtown are down, but they are nowhere near 20% that is absurd. They are at a low point right now around 40%, but they were in and around the mid 50’s from 2002 until the middle of last year. - Cite one example of a Hotel Company making money on its start-up? Start-up is easily one of the most expensive times in any businesses lifespan. -Chris Ferchill has laid out their plan very publicly (Model D Speaker series last month), and they intend to be around for a long time. His family’s company really doesn’t make money in the first years at all, they start to reap the benefits in a decade or so, if I remember his graphs correctly Criticize the BC renovation if you wish, it is highly subsidized, but I do not think anyone is planning on getting out in 2 years let alone 5 years. It will be the finest Hotel downtown, and will have no problem attracting customers. (Message edited by dan on February 27, 2007) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 576 Registered: 10-2006 |
A few posts ago I said: "Sure does take Detroiters to realize that we are in a GLOBAL market these days. The auto industry is the biggest example, but second to that would have to be that fact that many don't want a national chain to enter the city. Why not? If downtown don't accept globalization, maybe it too will go the way of the big three!" I wasn't intending to turn this into a thread about whether or not hotels can compete in the city of Detroit. The important message that I was trying to relay was that GLOBAL COMPANIES ARE ALL OVER THE GLOBE! As Superduperman eluded to, if Detroit doesn't, or if Detroiters don't except these global companies (including national franchises) Detroit only stands to loose. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 280 Registered: 11-2003 |
Croweblack, you don't know anything about tax credits. Please stick to a topic you know about. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2509 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote:There are a lot of people in the city. Those who post on this forum are not representative of the city as a whole in my experience. Detroit has those who are attracted to unique places and repelled by chains and corporate ownership. Fantastic, they give a city character. There are many more Detroiters who are similar to the average non-Detroiter; they go to chain restaurants and like it. They like non-chains too, but there's a reason that chains dominate -- lots of people choose to go there. On any Friday or Saturday night, go to Logan's on Gratiot in Roseville, Chili's by Oakland Mall, Champps at I-75/Big Beaver, Damon's on Van Dyke in SH, Olga's on Telegraph in Southfield, J. Alexander's on Orchard Lake/NW Hwy, or any chain restaurant on any artery heading out of Detroit. That's where many Detroiters choose to spend their money, perhaps in addition to some of the unique places. Maybe these Detroiters want familiar chain restaurants and stores in their city. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 814 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't think you can make a valid argument with a blanket statement that all chain stores are bad or good for all of Detroit. Detroit is a big city, filled with very different neighborhoods. What is good for one Detroit neighborhood many not be good for another. You can't lump all these different neighborhoods together as if they are all the same. The same goes with chain stores. They are not all the same. Every situation should be looked at in context... There is nothing wrong with the fast food drive-thru chains in Detroit along 8 mile road. There is also nothing wrong with these same fast food chains located in the Ren Cen food court. However, a stand alone fast food drive-thru chain on the downtown Hudsons site would be terrible. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 223 Registered: 01-2005 |
For those of you who what one of a kind unique businesses not owned by a corporation take a drive up michigan avenue,6 mile,7 mile and grand river,we have hundreds if not a couple thousand of those type of places already. |
