  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1042 Registered: 06-2004 |
MSU seeks school site Detroit, Clinton Twp. and Rochester compete to house the university's new osteopathic college. Steve Pardo / The Detroit News http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070129/S CHOOLS/701290323 | ||
Adamjab19 Member Username: Adamjab19 Post Number: 738 Registered: 11-2003 |
That would be awesome to have a MSU medical school extension in the area! | ||
Mclite Member Username: Mclite Post Number: 32 Registered: 09-2005 |
It would be great to have it somewhere south of WSU and North of CBD. It would help in bridging the gap. | ||
Tiorted Member Username: Tiorted Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2006 |
I'd like to see it in Detroit, but my guess is that it will end up at OU since OU started out as a MSU satellite campus | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 310 Registered: 05-2006 |
From the Macomb Daily... http://macombdaily.com/stories /012507/loc_medskul001.shtml | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 50 Registered: 01-2007 |
ummm, once again. You have the entire east side up to hamtramck and even beyond to build a sprawling , beautiful, useful complex and bring up the east side a little from the hole its been sinking into for the last 30 yrs. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2006 |
Why not put it in the Techtown area? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2371 Registered: 02-2005 |
If they're smart they'll go with the DMC, but they are not smart. | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 57 Registered: 12-2003 |
Spartans are smart...watch it | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2006 |
I second that Drankin | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2006 |
You are joking right?? The DMC?? The reverse King Midas?? Everything that is gold that they touch turns into junk. They just narrowly failed at an attempt to cripple its' partner, WSU, and commit suicide as a method of legally stealing 270 million dollars from Medicare over 3 years (Medicare=Federal government=our tax dollars). Why? to temporarily stop the flood of red ink for the duration of their CEO's 3 year contract. Look at this guys history, on the face of things, he is a hero for bringing the DMC into the black quickly. How? first a 50 million dollar bailout from the bankrupt state coffers, next, selling off its' revenue generating assets (nursing homes and clinics), next firing 40% of its' employees, next taking a buyout from Karmanos (but losing the yearly profits forever). Running out of fingers to put in the dyke, he attempted to hijack all of the federal moneys allocated to residents for the next 3 years (conveniently, the exact duration of his remaining contract) leaving the residents, and the Medical school (WSU) for dead. Future plans? His contract expires, the stolen federal money dries up uncovering 60million a year losses for the DMC attributed to his successor as CEO.....diabolically brilliant, but fortunately averted by public outcry (not Granholm, she would have let her buddy get away with it if the public didn't nearly lynch her). Please, Please MSU, don't get anywhere near the DMC if you know what is good for you...and Spartans are very smart BTW. More common sense in their little finger than in a Wolverines' entire body. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 453 Registered: 09-2006 |
"Spartans are smart...watch it" Hells Yeah, but I would love for them to put this extension somewhere within the city's core then we would be even smarter. Heres hoping for Techtown. | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 174 Registered: 01-2004 |
This facility will house 50 - 100 students, 12 faculty, and support staff...how much room will this realistically take up? Is it going to be a 1 building "campus" or an entire complex? I guess I'm thinking about the University of Michigan Detroit Center in Orchestra Place. Good to have a U of M presence in Detroit, but it's not exactly huge. I would love MSU in Detroit, but is this going to have an area changing impact? Also, the article specifically states that the Detroit finalist location is "...the Detroit Medical Center campus in downtown Detroit..." | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3537 Registered: 08-2004 |
Orchestra Place is the DMC Headquarters Building. I don't see that happening. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2006 |
Gistok, I wouldn't put it past MSU to put their school in the same building as UofM. Remember a month or so ago when MSU, UM, and WSU released joint statements talking about expanding their Research Corridor cooperation? In the spirit of that cooperation, it would seem logical for MSU and UM to have their satellite facilities in the same location that just so happens to be right by WSU. | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 175 Registered: 01-2004 |
http://detroitcenter.umich.edu /index.html I was just using this as an example of how something can sound grander than the actual thing. UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, THE DETROIT CENTER AT ORCHESTRA PLACE looks and sounds fantastic, but most people in metro Detroit probably never heard of it. I was trying to say that I wonder if this MSU thing will be more of a big deal...or if it will be another leased-space-wonder or one-building-wonder. But regardless, I would be appreciative of anything. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 495 Registered: 06-2006 |
Rochester near OU would be a better location than in Detroit (or Clinton Twnsp. for that matter)... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2006 |
At the DMC campus? Where exactly? Next to Scott Hall...the home of WSU SOM? MSU will have learned a lesson from the near catastrophe between the DMC and WSU and stay away, IMO. Besides, the DMC-WSU contract is binding for three more years (at least). What about HFH?? 1000 bed hospital, a full cadre of residencies, plenty of academic faculty, no university affiliation of significance. A huge downtown campus earmarked for a 300million dollar renovation, and a new suburban hospital with 300+ beds going up in West Bloomfield. Or Beaumont?? Also a 1000 bed hospital, with a full set of residencies, plenty of faculty, no university affiliation, a suburban satellite hospital and another one possibly on the way in Independence Township, A main campus with capacity to move patient beds out of the core building into the newly constructed additions (leaving lots of space for administrative offices and classrooms in the vacated building). There has been an undertone of arrogance and exclusivity from Osteopaths in the past, but that could change. Maybe WSU will go in the direction of HFH, or WBH, vacating the DMC and leave room for MSU to slip in......very, very doubtful, but interesting | ||
Soleil9 Member Username: Soleil9 Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 |
My understanding is that MSUCOM was looking at the old Hutzel Hospital as classroom space for their satalite campus. Dean Strampel was down last year to check it out. If it goes downtown it will most likely go there. The new satalite campus does not need to be affiliated or in close proximity to a hospital. MSUCOM's main campus is nowhere near a hospital is East Lansing, they don't need to do that here, either. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2006 |
That near disaster is not as far in the rear-view mirror as some think. There is no contract. Do not be misled to think it is just a technicality. It has already been 2+ months. There were term sheets signed in November to take the media and ACGME pressure off - not a contract. The two sides continue to negotiate up to 12 hrs a day with the mediator, Fink. One "drop dead date" from him has already passed with no resolution. Several terms have become unfavorable to Duggan and the DMC. The ACGME comes back in February. I assume they won't levy another warning if there is no contract this time around. The WSU-DMC are operating currently without a contract - it expired. The mediator decided the 2 should continue to operate under the previous ($$$ and service) terms until the new contract is done. Tick tock, tick tock. I assume more terms will become unfavorable to the DMC if it looks like MSU is willing to move into an empty Hutzel and renovate the space to classes, etc. Duggan has made it clear previouslly he would rather have MI DO's than FMG MD's staffing his hospitals anyway. Adding to the short term revenue, the ortho hospital in Madison Heights is being shown open-house style to the countless surgeons in the area sent information asking if they are interested in buying in. At the same time, the DMC is backing a group of physicians trying to buy Bon Secours. Spartans may be smart, but they have been known to fumble on occasion. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2006 |
i second Rochester but I live in Rochester Hills and there is like not much room to grow left so i donno where it would be placed | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2006 |
Oh my G-d....I had no idea and thought things were a done deal. How did this slip by? Where is the media? If what you are saying is true, there are still hundreds of at risk residents (at risk of losing their jobs, and possibly their careers) and they don't even know it!!!! Someone tell me this isn't true. I can understand that snake at the DMC twisting the story so that everyone thinks they are safe while he conives his way out of it....But why on earth would WSUSOM agree to a charade like that?? Were they duped?? If so, why haven't they spoken up as things dissolve again? What about the ACGME? are they gullible enough to fall for this? Buying into MIOSH may work if the surgeons haven't already invested themselves in a venture where they have sole ownership (ie surgery centers, or ORH) and, more importantly, they don't have the DMC as a partner. If they haven't learned from recent events that the DMC is not to be trusted, they deserve what they get (likewise for MSU). Besides, MIOSH is a DMC facility with DMC staff, benefits, seniority, etc...who wants to buy into that? Right now MIOSH is a disaster, and the DMC is trying desperately to turn a sows ear into a silk purse despite their biggest obstacle....themselves. One thing in MIOSH's favor is the rumor that the DMC+some local Orthopods at a competing hospital are likely to get the nod for a new residency starting at the match in 2008 (the match after next), and by contrast, the flat denial of a WSU-Oakwood ortho residency. These orthopods may be willing to go into MIOSH, but I don't think they have the capital or desire to invest in it as it would betray their current relatively healthy hospital affiliation and future potential at the new suburban hospital as well as their joint venture in an attached surgical center (that is being built as we speak and they have invested in already). Another smaller, lower profile group with some experience is interested in buying in somewhere, but has fairly strong affiliations on the east side and southwestern Wayne county. I think that they are too small to accomplish what the DMC has designs of doing though. I hope MSU doesn't fumble this one (for their sake). Duggan preferring AMG DOs over FMG MDs is a silly assertion to make (if he did in fact make it). Why? MSU is not a sure thing by any stretch, if it is true that WSU and the DMC are splitting, then the DMC will be left largely with bench riding residents (FMG MDs) at least at first, so alienating them with a statement like this would be foolish. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2006 |
The media is not interested. It has been approached from multiple angles, at several times, by various persons. Both parties had an interest in painting a rosier than real picture - they risked complete loss of ACGME accredidation. Now they are in no rush to reveal that things weren't as advertised at Thanksgiving. You're right though, there is a silent storm brewing. Its either going to go away without as much as a clap of thunder or it will wipe out the DMC-WSU arrangement faster than an MSU lead over Notre Dame. The ACGME is not that gullible - that is why they listed their points of concern and are expecting a progress report in February. The ortho guys at Providence have lost it if they think they have a partner in the DMC. They have moaned for years about not having enough say in the old WSU-DMC program. They think that will change? Do they honestly think Duggan and Malone would let a Providince surgeon be their program director / chairman equivalent? If they buy that, I have some snake oil I want to sell them. The DMC wanted to pull the residents for years from Providence b/c they thought all the complaints about Grace would be resolved by more bodies. Now Providence believes the DMC is going to help fund a ortho research lab at Providence or help buy the Wayne department - and get university academic promotions on top of it. Ortho labs don't go on billboards - it will never happen unless they're measuring slapshot speed or developing a GuitarHero game safe for Zumaya's wrist. The ortho RRC might be a little more split than their executive director is. Not releasing the CMS funds struck a cord with many program directors - some of those guys are on the short list for positions like AAOS president and the like. Plus the history of the program director is not admired by many. It is going to take more than a research lab and lecture schedule like this year's rejection letter may have sited. Despite the lack of clear moral/ethical standards in the evaluation of PIF's, as the program director was banking on, there people in the ACGME who felt and still feel the choice not release funds, the willingness to let this happen, and the behaviour of several individuals is more important than the lack of ethical standards in the formal evaluation process of PIFs. Assuming that would be overlooked was a similarly displeasing aspect of the DMC approach to a new program. I guess it all depends who your friends are and if they are shooting straight with you. Sorry to steal the thunder from the MSU ideas, other than be aware. | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 176 Registered: 01-2004 |
Mediator: Deal between DMC, Wayne State still on track January 31, 2007 BY PATRICIA ANSTETT FREE PRESS MEDICAL WRITER The mediator incontract talks between the Detroit Medical Center and Wayne State University School of Medicine Wednesday disputed reports that the two parties are deadlocked and won’t meet a Thursday deadline to resolve differences. “We have an agreement” signed Nov. 23 “and it’s binding,” said mediator David Fink, Gov. Jennifer Granholm’s handpicked mediator. He said the Chicago-based Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, which oversees U.S. medical residency programs, “requested a progress report for Feb. 1” on the talks, creating “some misunderstanding’’ that the contract was in jeopardy. see entire article: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070131/NEW S05/70131014/0/BUSINESS01 | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 60 Registered: 01-2007 |
see, you guys on this forum want so badly to rebuild detroit but you want to place the school anywhere but, does not make sense to me. The entire east side is a vacant land and what the hell is wrong with them rehabbing the packard plant into the school and dorms? hell, with that the police presense will increase dramatically and all you have to worry about is building the west side up after that. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2006 |
Walterwaves, MSU is only bringing in about 100 students. The Packard plant or any sight that big would be way to huge. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 61 Registered: 01-2007 |
oh well, it was worth a thought anywho | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2006 |
Maybe if MSU moved their entire business school to Detroit could the Packard work. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2006 |
I hear you regarding the obvious reservations that the Orthopods at the competing hospital (I did not say Providence.....but...) should have. However, and regardless, what I am hearing is a current status report, not pie in the sky hopes and if comes...in other words, the process is very much in motion and looks like a serious go for 08 (the fallout, as you conjecture, is very likely to follow). From the point of view of the Orthopods at the other hospital, it became a choice between this strategy (that seems to be going forward), or no strategy. What assurances, or contingincies they have planned to protect their interests if (more likely, when) the DMC turns on them...I have no idea, but shame on them if they haven't planned for this likelihood. I mean, come on, these are bright folks that have witnessed or lived through the treachery of the DMC first hand. To pretend that all is well moving forward with the DMC after that would require a serious head injury (with all of the Docs in the same accident). I suppose they would deserve what was coming to them if they made this tragic mistake. The article hidden in the middle of the business section of the Free Press today on its' face was reassuring, however, nuances say otherwise. First, it is hidden in the middle of the business section (somebody wants to keep this hush hush). Next, they talk about disagreements on terms not yet resolved. Metzler gives his statement very blandly and without any detail (revealing a lack of confidence and zeal). This could all be political posturing and things will get resolved and a contract will be signed in the next 2 weeks (let's hope so), but it could also go horribly wrong. Try looking at it from the DMC's (Duggan's) perspective...he intended the DMC and WSU to split earlier, but media attention and outcry foiled his plan. In the meanwhile, he has been making arrangements as if the contract would not be signed (examples are found in the 6 residencies that folded before the apparent reconciliation) including the possibility of a MSU COM link. This time, if it escapes public attention over the next 2 weeks, the deadline passes, and the ACGME decertifies all of the residencies, Duggan will have accomplished his objective. He can say it is out of his hands courtesy of the ACGME, and he will certainly blame WSU for the breakdown in negotiations for the final contract. The DMC walks away with ~270 million over the next 3 years (the duration of Duggan's contract) stolen from the taxpayers (he is a Liberal after all, and that is what they do at their core). Over the next 3 years, the DMC may throw together some third rate residencies on their own, or, much better yet (for the DMC), absorb MSU COM and build some decent Osteopathic programs. If it falls apart sometime after 3 years from now (a very likely possibility), Duggan will be long gone and his successor will be blamed. MSU COM is the next victim if they get in bed with the DMC. Much better (for them) to find a less malignant partner, IMO. As far as the 100 students at start up number, it is just that, a start up. I don't recall their class size, but think it is about 225...X4 years for 900 total, 100 of whic is 10% to start. If it flies, I envision a 50/50 split as the ultimate plan (but I am guessing). | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3714 Registered: 10-2003 |
MSU could move into the current bldg that Davenport University (in all of their infinite wisdom) is about to abandon in Dearborn on Michigan at the old Detroit College of Business site... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2006 |
I don't think that MSU COM is merely looking for space....they want to get their foot in the door of the Metropolitan Detroit Health system. For this they need a partner...looking for this is most likely to lead to where they will end up (if anywhere, after all, at this early stage they could decide against a move all together if the deal isn't right). Existing potential partners include HFH, DMC, St. John, Oakwood, Trinity Health (St Marys, St. Joes), Botsford (a good match , but maybe too small), Garden City (way too small and impotent), Crittendon, and WBH. Where exactly they set up shop, is almost a trivial matter relative to the first priority, finding a partner and the right deal. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2006 |
As for MSU, it seems like the Metro-Detroit health care situation is, if anything, overcrowded. There is a lot of competition. The 30, then 29, then 0 minute ER guarantees are a good example of that. All of the cardiac center billboards too. I do not know what kind of presence MSU intends to bring in terms of clinical services. If it is just training, it makes complete sense to move to SE MI, if it is planning on a clinical presence it seems like there are already a lot of hats in this ring. As for the DMC and orthopaedics, I am skeptical. They were telling staff they had an 80% chance of approval for '07. Now, less than a month after the '07 proposal was turned down, things already look so promising for '08. The RRC meets twice a year with plenty of issues on the table, it seems a bit far fetched that they are giving such hints 10 months before the next PIF would be reviewed particularly in such an unstable system. Could any of these promising predictions have anything to do with disuading surgeons who are already planning to go back to their old jobs now that there is no free labor next year? Most of the guys at Providence didn't really experience the split last year. Very few were involved with the program other than having residents scrubbing with them. The most active members blame everything on DeSilva anyway. They even blame DeSilva for the contract problems with WSU despite him not being involved in any negotiations and being screwed over by the new dean countless times already this year. Plus, strategy for what? They are all in private practice, few have any academic interest. Many are very frank with how little they keep up with literature or new techniques. It is not an academic medical center - I guess that makes it a great partner for DMC (birds of a feather...) If by strategy you mean a way to secure residents to cover the ER, than I agree with you. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 69 Registered: 11-2006 |
MSU COM is very much lacking in clinical training opportunities in East Lansing. Nearly all 3rd and 4th year students are farmed out to other areas for their rotations (many to BGH). So, I think that is what they are looking for. I don't think they have any designs on setting up a revenue generating clinical practice in SE Michigan. In fact, for teachers, they are likely to tap Physicians already in practice in the area (as opposed to installing a new, foreign faculty). Regarding the future of an Ortho residency in SE Michigan, you raise some really good points. While not the type of stuff for the front page for them, the Sattelite ortho program really felt the change in the form of lost labor as you alluded to. They went scrambling and hired a slew of ill prepared extenders to try and make up for it (emphasis on try, meaning not necessarily succeeding). Fortunately, as you also point out, they were largely private to begin with and, while painful, it was not like being a fish out of water as it would be for academic surgeons, and they muddled through. What do they have to gain from a new program?? An excellent question that I had not really thought through until you brought it up. I can only guess/theorize...a return of free labor in the form of residents, some money (but not huge dollars in the context of the revenue from a busy private ortho practice), the satisfaction of teaching, prestige and power for the group....not so compelling, is it? Am I missing something? I guess you could look at it 2 ways. You could say that there is not much to gain and this is a noble pursuit for sake of the satisfaction of teaching. Kinda shaky, especially in a saturated market where they end up training their own competition. Practical motivation would tell you that they are doing it in the hopes of growing their power and influence. As money and power are usually at the core of what motivates people in pursuit of career related endeavors, this is the more likely. The problem is, it doesn't seem that the odds of a big pay off are that high...so I am somewhat stumped. Don't lynch me on this one, but here goes...Academic medicine ain't what it is cracked up to be IMO. Publish or perish, crappy publications in supposed high caliber peer reviewed journals with no practical application in sight (ie no plot), and in a field that is largely very static at this point....fractures, repairs, replacements...how much has changed "on the cutting edge" in the last 15 years? The real world of private practice is where it is at IMO. Practical developments (in orthopedics) come from lots and lots of clinical experience and a touch of serendipity. It is much more rewarding (financially and personally) without all of the political nonsense of funding, publishing, cronyism, etc. The money in academia is drying up also....I mean, G-d bless the dedicated research physicians, but all that and a dollar fifty will get you a nice cup of coffee. I would argue that private practice is the best place to train future Physicians (the vast majority of whom will enter private practice). For this reason, I don't see the lack of academic interest as a bad thing at all, quite the contrary. On a personal note, while not an orthopod, my residency was very heavily slanted to the private practice world, and I can't say enough for the value of that experience (as well as its' exclusivity). |
