  Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 449 Registered: 07-2004 |
There has been much talk about commuter rail for the I-94 corridor from Detroit to Ann-Arbor. Commuter rail however is years away if ever. Instead of worrying about commuter rail, I think Metro Detroit should prime this corridor with quality rapid bus service. Here is an idea of the route I have in mind. You thoughts. THE I-94 FLYER RAPID BUS SERVICE BETWEEN DOWNTOWN DETROIT, DEARBORN, WESTLAND, AND DETROIT METRO AIRPORT. TWO ROUTES WILL PROVIDE RAPID BUS SERVICE. ROUTE 94A: Will provide service from downtown Detroit to Dearborn Amtrak Station, Fairlane Town Centre, and Detroit Metro Airport. Buses will use area highways to access these stations. Route 94B: Will provide service from downtown Detroit to Dearborn Amtrak Station, Fairlane Town Centre, Inkster Road and Ford Road, and Westland Center. Buses will use area highways to access these stations. PARK AND RIDE LOTS WILL BE LOCATED AT AMTRAK DEARBORN FAIRLANE TOWN CENTRE WESTLAND MALL SERVICE ON EACH ROUTE WILL BE PROVIDED SEVEN DAYS A WEEK. PEAK HOUR SERVICE WILL BE EVERY 15MIN ON EACH ROUTE, PROVIDING A 7MIN SERVICE FROM FAIRLANE TO DOWNTOWN DETROIT. NON-PEAK SERVICE WILL BE APPROX EVERY 30-60MIN ON EACH ROUTE, PROVIDING A 15-30MIN SERVICE FROM FAIRLANE TO DOWNTOWN DETROIT. EXTRA SERVICE WILL BE PROVIDED WHEN SPECIAL EVENTS OR GAMES ARE PLAYING IN DOWNTOWN DETROIT. DOWNTOWN DETROIT SERVICE Rapid buses will make stops in downtown Detroit at Woodward Ave and Jefferson, Campus Martius, Grand Circus Park, Cultural Centre, Wayne State, and New Center. (Message edited by miketoronto on January 18, 2007) | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 261 Registered: 04-2004 |
!!!! | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 70 Registered: 12-2006 |
Commuter rail could happen as early as August 2007. That's not a guarantee, I said "should". SEMCOG is negotiating details with NPRC (Amtrak). Not many air travelers ride transit to airports, Mike. Transit to airports is generally used by airport employees. Still, your idea has merit! Any improved transit should be multimodal IMNSHO. Professor Scott. | ||
Toog05 Member Username: Toog05 Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2006 |
Skip a bus, im tired of buses, we want commuter rail!!! | ||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 46 Registered: 06-2006 |
^Not many air travelers ride transit to airports, Mike. Transit to airports is generally used by airport employees. What are you talking about? Don't paint a broad brush. In DC many air travelers take the Metro to Reagan National and they are building a line out to Dulles. Many would take mass transit to Metro airport if it was available. It needs to be done in the proper manner of course. As far as Rapid Bus service...the problem with this, and particularly this route, is that it is influenced by current traffic conditions. If traffic is bad, which it often is on this route, then passengers will not find it faster or efficient. If mass transit is not efficient then people will not use it. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 266 Registered: 10-2006 |
Busses are actually pretty sweet, but I know that that is hard for Detroiters to believe... | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2330 Registered: 02-2005 |
We need more buses...regional and inner city. With that said... like Profscott mentioned, the A2-Detroit rail link may not be far away. SEMCOG, Amtrak, and Norfolk Southern are in active and productive negotiations, according to a source I personally spoke to at Amtrak. They are even exploring the possibility of using rails within the city limits that lead directly downtown as opposed to New Center. What they are planning is a demonstration line, not a final product. If the demonstration creates enough interest, then we will recieve the $100 million in federal funding for a permanent operation. It seems to me that this line will only link to the same stops already used by Amtrak, making this basically a high-speed, high-frequency link between Detroit and Ann Arbor (w/ a Dearborn stop)...unless they create new stops i.e. in Ypsi, Wayne, and West Dearborn. So in this sense, this possible train upgrade is not exactly commuter rail, and not a substitute for a typical bus. Regarding this bus line: what happens with this proposed highway bus line when there is traffic congestion? I think it is much better to keep buses on surface streets, giving them their own lane and timing the lights so that they move quickly. It seems like, if they bus travels the highway, fewer people will be able to have easy access to it with the infrequent stops. Buses cannot be purely point-to-point. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 787 Registered: 04-2006 |
94b pretty much exists as the SMART 200/250. Now I would support trying to improve service with coordinated pre-empted signals for buses/EMS fire. | ||
Mw2gs Member Username: Mw2gs Post Number: 251 Registered: 03-2005 |
Why does the picture of this "rapid bus" stuck in traffic on 94 at 4:30 come to mind? How is rapid bus service any different than jumping in your hooptie and driving to the airport? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 791 Registered: 04-2006 |
your hooptie requires you to pay to park. not everyone can afford a hooptie, but have one anyways as they have no other way to get around. this added transportation cost makes it harder to get out of poverty. there are people out there who should not or cannot drive a hooptie. your hooptie moves only one person (typically) 40 people in hoopties pollute more, have higher operating costs (together), pollute more, and cost a lot of money to park at the airport than if those 40 people took the bus/train/trolley. (Message edited by detroitplanner on January 18, 2007) | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 227 Registered: 07-2006 |
That is definitely true, but the fact remains that bus service offers comparatively less advantages than rail service. Rail service has the advantage of predictability than bus service does not. Unless you have a dedicated bus lane along the entire route, bus service cannot provide the same level of predictability. Also, wheeling luggage into rail cars can often be easier than lugging it up the steps of a bus. When dealing with people going to the airport, this can be quite important. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2184 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Who actually believes that even passenger trains do not encounter traffic? I remember when our eighth-grade class made the annual trip to DC from Milwaukee eons ago, our train literally stopped three times to allow freight trains passage. And those were the days when there were multiple parallel ROWs, unlike today's often single-track ROWs | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 240 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Debbie Downer of DetroitYes. Instead of being overly post happy about the epidemic of feline AIDS you have chosen Detroit instead. Strange. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 295 Registered: 12-2006 |
LY, that is because you were traveling the grand old rails of CSX. And when I say old, I mean old. CSX never does rail work, that is why the southeastern portion of Amtrak has had so many problems with performance. NS, on the other hand, is great at moving their trains along. Take a look at the stats of OTP for Amtrak on NS routes (City of New Orleans). With the exception of out by Battle Creek, you can take Amtrak from Dearborn and encounter no delays until out by Gary. NS would easily clear out traffic for commuter trains. For Gods sake, they only run 6 freights a day on that line. It would be very easy to run commuter trains on that line. In my opinion, buses wont take enough traffic off of I-94 to make much of an impact. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 712 Registered: 09-2005 |
"Debbie Downer of DetroitYES!" LOL!  | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1854 Registered: 12-2003 |
Scs100, I believe that the majority of the City of New Orleans runs on CN track. LY is right. Train tracks have traffic too. Unfortunately he doesn't want to acknowledge that rail capacity is many times greater than highway capacity. Add that to the ability to schedule all traffic, and add significantly more capacity on the existing ROW, and his "downers" evaporate. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 931 Registered: 11-2003 |
Would the rapid bus scenario also include a car pool and buses only lane? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2006 |
Mackinaw, My last discussion with SEMCOG a few weeks ago led me to believe that for the starter service a very small number of additional stops would be implemented (in particular one at the airport). True "bus rapid transit" has its own running ways, like many modern light rail implementations. In some cities they use HOV lanes since those rarely are congested; but "HOV lanes" is another concept that never took root here. Commuter rail is typically the mode of choice when you have to cover a great distance. For local commutes within the corridor at either end (AA to Ypsi and Dearborn-Detroit) improved bus or light rail would be the typical mode choice. By the way, my "not many air travelers" comment is universally accepted among experienced transit planners. That's not to say the airport isn't an important destination for transit; but it won't get as much use by the "general public" as everybody thinks it will. Among people in the biz there is absolutely no debate about this. Still, since our airport is east of a mucho grande college town, maybe we get to be the exception Professor Scott | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2006 |
East_d, The corridor study included the option of Bus Rapid Transit, and that did call for new HOV lanes to be added to I-94, which made that option fairly expensive. There are cities where that's been done, but usually the HOV lanes already exist. Professor Scott | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 793 Registered: 04-2006 |
There are thousands of jobs at or by the airport. It is a legitimate job center. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 993 Registered: 04-2005 |
how many times must i tell you folks? this is not going to happen. lots of people tied to elected officials are making lots of money STUDYING this proposal. however, the late great state of michigan has an economy that is among the worst in the nation, and has only begun its decline. jobs are being eliminated, wages are declining, consumer debt is escalating, foreclosures are at record levels, home values are dropping, and it's only a matter of time before mortgage prices jump way above historic lows. granholm has tried a number of one-time accounting tricks during her first term to stave off the announcement that we are now facing a billion-dollar deficit. right after she was re-elected, we "found out" that state tax revenues were far below "expectations." we can't afford grand-scale governmental initiatives such as innovative mass-transit strategies for the D. all we can afford right now is the nickel-and-dime thieving that the mcnamara legacy has left us - in this case, governmental funding for a study going nowhere - like mass transit in the D. granholm and kilpatrick have made a fortune playing off the emotions of the electorate in michigan, with tragic results. until they take hold of the real issues - and address crime and the unions - we're sunk. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2006 |
Detroitplanner, That's exactly how airport transit service is generally used - by people who work in the area. The thing I'm trying to debunk is the myth that thousands and thousands of air travelers will use transit thereby removing congestion from the part of the airport the public drives in. Absolutely an airport link is an essential part of regional transit. If Wayne County's concept of an "aerotropolis" ever (warning: bad pun ahead) gets off the ground (sorry), the transit link will be one of the things pushing this forward. So my point isn't that nobody will take transit to the airport and its environs, just that it won't be the huge numbers of air travelers people often think will use the service. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2334 Registered: 02-2005 |
Profscott, I can definitly see an airport stop, and I think it will work. Thecarl, I consider myself a realist, but when it comes to a demonstration line, with frequent trips between A2 and Detroit, I'd say its in the bag. Actually, it's guaran-sheed. Whether or not we actually use this will decide if it becomes a permanent reality. Rest assured I will get everyone I know at UM to take it to Detroit. Regarding rail traffic, I can say that from A2-Detroit it is negligible. I once experienced a 15 minute holdup somewhere east of Ypsi, presumably waiting for a train to pass on the nearby north-south line (I think the real problem is improving the rails in the C of D so that the train can go faster than 20mph). Arrangements WILL be made if the Amtrak service is expanded to something more frequent. In addition, Norfolk Southern runs ONLY 6 freight trains along this track per day, compared to 100 per day along a track from Chicago to Toledo. I guess that says something about our regional economy... | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2006 |
Mackinaw, The amount of E-W freight traffic says less about our regional economy than it says about our geography. Michigan is two peninsulas; nationwide E-W traffic in the northern U. S. goes across the Chicago-Toledo corridor but not anywhere in Michigan. Actually compared to many states in our region, we use our freight rail lines quite a bit. Professor Scott | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 798 Registered: 04-2006 |
Most of the passenger traffic at O'Hare or Midway still arrive by automobile (both private and cab). The number of people who rent cars once they arrive at airports is higher than those that will take transit downtown. That is the reality of the land use and locations travelling to are more dispersed. Particularly big airports like Metro have folks coming in from all over Michigan, Ohio, Ontario, and Indiana to fly long domestic and international routes. Very few of those will ever make it downtown. It is best to design transit for the regular user. That would be linking up the employment centers with the residential areas so that those who work at the airport have options to get there. Not everyone who works at the airport can afford a car; some should not, or cannot physically drive. Transit helps them to become less of an economic burden and more of a consumer. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 298 Registered: 12-2006 |
Whoops. My bad, it is CN that owns the track. I was thinking of the Crescent. Still not a terrible route. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 271 Registered: 10-2006 |
Now (with the economy being down) is a great time to think about these types of projects. Look at the public work projects constructed during the depression for an example. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1855 Registered: 12-2003 |
Scs100, I now live within virtual spitting distance of the Crescent route. (Measured on Google maps, and it is ~400') The line is NS, and I can tell you that the train seems to keep pretty good time around here, especially considering that it is about halfway on an almost 1400 mile route, and there is a lot of freight traffic. I've never counted, but I'd guess there are 50 trains a day. The line is double tracked by my home, but a few miles in either direction it is single tracked again for a while. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2006 |
Charlottepaul, You're exactly correct, but we get stuck in a rut around here because when the economy is good we say "the economy is good, so we don't have to change anything" and when the economy is bad we say "the economy is bad, so we can't afford to change anything". That is in a nutshell why we are where we are. Regarding the mixed use of a rail line, it's done all over the world. If the various organizations involved are responsible and cooperative - which seems to be the case here, so far - it can go pretty well. Professor Scott | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1857 Registered: 12-2003 |
I posted this info in one of the other transit thread's too, but instead of making a new thread, I'll put it here as well. For those of you who have an interest in Metro Detroit Transit, I encourage you to attend TRU's meeting on Monday 1/22/07 at 6:30 in the Guardian Building. More information is at their website: http://www.detroittransit.org/ meetings.php Here is a freep brief about it: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070117/NEW S02/701170416/1004 | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 299 Registered: 12-2006 |
Ok. Thanks for the info Jsmyers. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 451 Registered: 07-2004 |
The thing with my idea is not that you never will get rail. But we have to improve transit now. So lets get the buses out there working with some good express style routes, and then work on the rail. I think it is foolish to sit here and only demand a commuter rail, when we could be doing so much with the buses untill rail is built. There are tons of things SMART and DDOT could be doing to improve the bus service as it stands now, without mega rail projects. And these simple improvments would go along way in helping the transit picture untill rapid transit is built, etc. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 715 Registered: 09-2005 |
I still think the combination commuter rail/express bus service idea is a reasonable solution. Commuter rail would be run during peak traffic times and would be replaced with express bus service during non-peak times. The same stations would be served by the train and the bus (probably with the exception of any stop for the airport). During peak hours the train could run from AA to Detroit with stops at Ypsi, Wayne (DTW) (with connecting shuttle), Dearborn, etc. Those same stations would be served by the express bus (using I-94, etc.) during off-peak times. During peak times the trains will (obviously) avoid congestion on the highways, and during off-peak times (where there is little to no highway congestion) the buses would run. Of course, the express bus could actually be 2 routes: AA to DTW and DTW to Detroit. During off-peak hours (when the express bus is in service) the bus will directly serve DTW rather than have to drive North to get to the Wayne-DTW shuttle station. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2006 |
Upin's describing something similar to how metro Toronto's GO system works in some areas, especially outlying areas. I think it's a pretty good system. It's also flexible. If rail service is very popular, then we could run that most of the time, and buses at the very low-use periods (late nights, Sundays). If the rail service isn't as popular, then you can run mostly express buses and run the trains only during peak periods. Miketoronto, no big city anywhere has a bus-only transit system except us. I see no reason metro Detroit should continue to live with worst-of-class transit. Buses are certainly a huge, major component of every transit system, but you need something better to cover distances quickly. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 452 Registered: 07-2004 |
My point is that at the moment buses can provide an expanded transit system that lets be serious, rail is not going to serve for years and years to come. Also in the meantime buses can provide a frequent service that will be alot more attractive then a train that has three runs in the morning and three at night, like most commuter rail routes provide. We need to get service out now. So get the buses out then work on the rail. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2064 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I always hear the argument of "flexibility" as a positive attribute of buses. Since when is flexibility desireable in a transit system? When I get on transit, I want to know the exact route, and how long it will take to get there. Otherwise, I might not ride. The "inflexibility", or permanence, of rail modes is precisely why they attract investment. Therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that "flexibility" is not a positive attribute. I understand that at certain times of day with low passenger demand, buses may be more cost efficient than rail. I don't think they will ever be more attractive than a rail option, though, especially over long distances. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2337 Registered: 02-2005 |
I also agree with what Charlottepaul said about why we should do this now. In addition, for once our governments could pursue good policy. Let's think about getting rapid transit up and running now, so that when cars inevitably become too expensive for the majority to operate, we will have alternatives. This region would be a whole lot more respectable if it had regional transit. The A2-Detroit connection will automatically take us up a notch. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2006 |
I also want to take exception to the claim that rail will not serve us for "years and years to come". Mike, SEMCOG is trying to work out an arrangement with Amtrak's organization and the rail line owner (CN, I believe) to provide commuter rail this year. The thinking is that a service could be up and running about six months after a deal is inked. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1860 Registered: 12-2003 |
Not CN, NS (Norfolk Southern) for most of the route. CN is the railroad from Detroit to Pontiac. MDOT's map might help: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDOT_Official_Rail_130897_7.pdf (Message edited by jsmyers on January 19, 2007) | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 303 Registered: 12-2006 |
I just looked and couldn't find exactly where NS's line stops and CN's begins. My best guess would be right near that industrial park up by the Poletown plant. Anyways, it would be very easy to pull off an Amtrak run commuter service. Here is a list of commuter trains run by Amtrak: * Caltrain (California) * MARC (Maryland Area Regional Commuter) * Shore Line East (Connecticut) * VRE (Virginia Railway Express) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2069 Registered: 10-2003 |
Amtrak also used to operate the extensive MBTA (Boston) commuter rail system. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 304 Registered: 12-2006 |
I just went into a link from Amtrak and copied the list they had. So if anyone else knows any former operations, please let me know. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 808 Registered: 04-2006 |
Mike, I just read that the TTC's fleet of Hybrid buses is now over 500 and that the City is experiencing better gas mileage, lower operation and maintenance costs, and much improved air quality over buses of the same age and regular diesel technology. Have you riden one of these buses or heard the same? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2185 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Not only is there CN and NS, but the Conrail SAA still exists in three areas as a terminal railroad--one of which is in Detroit. Conrail is owned by both NS and Chessie. As far as Amtrak is concerned in its Pontiac--Chicago run, Amtrak uses the CN ROW up through Milwaukee Jct. and crosses onto Conrail near Vinwood. Then it doesn't get onto NS tracks until it clears the Conrail SAA near Townline (the original name for Greenfield) on the Michigan Line. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 776 Registered: 02-2006 |
Just a little tidbit from the other side of the transit universe. Starting in April, a massive project is planned on the old North Main Line of the Chicago L, carrying the Red, Brown, and Purple lines through the middle North side. For the next 2.5 years, this line will be at a minimum 25% reduced capacity, as 1 of the 4 tracks will be demolished sequentially. CTA is telling customers to expect their commute times (already over 1 hour from the farthest north points on the Red Line) to double. For 33 months. What is the effect? Real estate offices that hold properties along the Blue line, or on the South Side, are being inundated with calls as people who are able plan to flee the North side. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 814 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ed, ya sure that doesn't have anything to do with all of the housing being developed along S Michigan Ave???? | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 454 Registered: 07-2004 |
Detroitplanner, I have not been on the Hybird busess yet. I have seen them at the subway station, but my route still uses the older buses. That being said they look just like normal buses, except their tops are a little higher. Other then that and the words that say HYBIRD on them, you would never know they were a different kind of bus. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 307 Registered: 12-2006 |
Thanks LY. Wasn't positive on locations. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2187 Registered: 10-2004 |
So Conrail really owns the tracks that Amtrak uses from Vinewood through Townline (Greenfield). That means that Chessie (having a 46% interest in Conrail) is an active player along the Amtrak route because they have a greater business presence in Detroit than the NS. Proof in point: consider the recent mass influx of capital poured into Livernois Yard's intermodal. Their business there will just get larger, not smaller--unless Detroit keeps crashing down like the Hudson building banner on DY. |
