  Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1434 Registered: 05-2005 |
the motor city brewing company is apparently being strong armed by the owners of the traffic jam, an indication of which is that MCBC customers are no longer allowed to park in the lot that the TJ owns, the same lot where the MCBC resides. what's the deal over there on the corner of canfield and 2nd? | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 238 Registered: 08-2006 |
Both are breweries and competing for business? | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 196 Registered: 08-2006 |
I blame white suburbanites... More likely there is some renegotiation of that parking agreement in progress. Anyone have the least clue what the original terms were? | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2003 |
PARKING IS THE BANE OF A TRULY URBAN DETROIT. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 239 Registered: 08-2006 |
Here is an update from a local arts blog that sheds a little light on the situation. I'm not sure how the author I'm quoting from is associated with the MCBC but he seems to have intimate knowledge. QUOTE "about the parking situation: i apologize for the inconvenience and annoyance that this parking mess has caused (although having to walk half a block is not that big of a hardship). we are continuing to try to resolve the issue. unfortunately, the owner of the traffic jam, Scott Lowell (who also owns the bronx and cliff bells) is actively trying to shut us down. we did nothing to provoke him, except for the proposed construction of a pizza kitchen (all those colorful, crafty additions). is pizza that threatening, or is Scott just a dick?" http://www.blogger.com/comment .g?blogID=11790809&postID=1167 92084115566769 | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1437 Registered: 05-2005 |
thanks stecks, that post is actually what prompted me to make this post. I had overheard that there was some issue with it wednesday night when i attended that event, I also experienced being told by the lot guy that I could not park in the lot if the brewery was my destination. in response to your first post, its my understanding that the traffic jam was already a brewery before MCBC opened, how would that suddenly change things (Message edited by gravitymachine on January 05, 2007) | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 240 Registered: 08-2006 |
No problem. I'll take the MCBC over Traffic Jam any day. Ironically I was going to give TJ another shot and eat there again but since they are playing hard ball forget about it. | ||
Gogo Member Username: Gogo Post Number: 1392 Registered: 11-2003 |
So Traffic Jam is trying to "shut down" MCBC just because it wants to use its own lot which MCBC has been using for free all along?? I'd say TJ has been very generous with letting the MCBC use its lot and instead of acting like a sour puss should thank them for all the years of free parking. If this is the only reason MCBC claims TJ is trying to shut them down. I'm unimpressed. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 241 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes, TJ has been a brewery for along time and if they didn't want another brewery near by they should have protested a long time ago, which they may have at the time I don't know. I think since the MCBC was so small and didn't serve food they were not a serious threat to TJ's business. Now with MCBC wanting to add food people who want to "eat" and drink good beer in that particular area, may opt for the MCBC instead of TJ. This is of course all my speculation. | ||
Gogo Member Username: Gogo Post Number: 1393 Registered: 11-2003 |
Stecks77 - I think the more probable cause is that TJ business has been growing and they need their parking. The last two times I was there it was packed. In the past they may have been able to let the MCBC use their extra parking, this may no longer be the case. I'm unsure why TJ needs to be accused of shutting down MCBC for wanting to use their own parking. Seems that if MCBC wanted to have their own designated parking spaces, they shouldn't have relied on a Traffic Jam in the first place. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 199 Registered: 08-2006 |
So how much per space is Scott Lowell asking for? | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1438 Registered: 05-2005 |
does anyone know how the mcbc ended up in the parking lot anyways? I mean its not like they just camped out in the corner of the lot hoping they wouldn't be caught while they erected a brewery. It seems wierd to me that mcbc would rely on the TJ for the effective land rights for the approach to their business, but at the same time, perhaps the TJ owners shoulda considered the possibility of competition, oh, somewhere around the time that the MCBC to set up shop (Message edited by gravitymachine on January 05, 2007) | ||
Hugo8100 Member Username: Hugo8100 Post Number: 20 Registered: 06-2006 |
I was yelled at by the parking nazi a few weeks ago. I had to move my car over 2 spaces and the lot was only half full. That said, if the lot is property of the Traffic Jam then they have the right to what they want with it. | ||
Misssocks Member Username: Misssocks Post Number: 15 Registered: 06-2006 |
TJ is mad that MCBW is installing means to serve food. Nothing to do with the beer or sudden possessiveness of parking spaces. They don't want the competition. | ||
Gianni Member Username: Gianni Post Number: 269 Registered: 05-2004 |
I'm a little rusty on the history here, but I think MCBC was originally started by the people who owned TJ's, or was some kind of joint venture. This was before brewpubs were legal or their legal status was up in the air, and MCBW was to be the first or one of the very first brewpubs in Michigan. Sounds like the current TJ owner is not the same one as back then. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 101 Registered: 04-2006 |
"I also experienced being told by the lot guy that I could not park in the lot if the brewery was my destination." Did he actually mention the brewery by name, or just say that the lot was reserved for TJ's customers? If they're singling out the MCBC, the explanation that TJ just needed their parking doesn't make much sense. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1441 Registered: 05-2005 |
he wasn't aggresive or mean about it, but he said "if you are going to the brewery, you can't park here" | ||
Graem Member Username: Graem Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2007 |
the quote posted above by stecks77 was written by me (an employee) and were born out of frustration with the situation. the opinions are mine and do not represent the opinions of mcbw or its owners. my apologies also, the parking attendant is a nice guy and is just doing his job | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2913 Registered: 10-2003 |
It has nothing to do with increased business at TJ...I've been there when the parking lot is 1/4 full and all the spots around MCB are "coned". Somebody is being a real dick, and it's not the parking guy, who is just following orders. | ||
The_recycling_people Member Username: The_recycling_people Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2006 |
not to be butting in, but in order to apply for a food prep and sale license, the owner must provide a certain number of guaranteed spots for customers to park - this number of spots is tied directly to the number of 'tables' available for seating. if the lot in question has a fixed number of spots, they can only be designated and available for one business at a time. If the owner of property attempting to secure a food license cannot guarantee parking, license to serve food may not be approved. I have run into this with zoning laws. Our facility is located in a heavy industrial (b-4) zone. When the 'loft' people come by and ask to rezone areas, I have to fight them in order to protect my right to operate my business. I have been called a 'dick' and have been seen as styming development, but I am just trying to protect what I have already. Laws are the rules of the game of business. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 142 Registered: 12-2006 |
Definitely not the same owner. I went there back in the summer and it seemed like the menu had shrunk in half over a period of 2 weeks. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4215 Registered: 11-2004 |
If it's TJ's parking lot, how are they "squeezing out" (negative connotation) the MCBC? Technically and legally it's their parking lot. If anything they should be commended for being so gracious over the years. If at any point they want it back for whatever purposes, shouldn't they be allowed to?? I don't exactly see Traffic Jam being the bad guys here for taking charge of their parking lot. If anything, shouldn't the folks at MCBC try to find a way to accomodate their own customers? Whether it's leasing space from TJs or finding their own solutions, I think that MCBC should and CAN find a solution. No one's the bad guy here. There just has to be some mutually satisfying agreements that need hammering out here. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 144 Registered: 12-2006 |
It's not really the fact that TJ's is illegally using that parking lot, it's the fact that MCBC happens to be right behind that parking lot, so it's more convenient for MCBC to have their parking lot where TJ's is. That's what the whole issue is. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 201 Registered: 08-2006 |
Scs100--sounds like a great argument for why MCBC should buy the lot! | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 914 Registered: 11-2003 |
Look at all the people sharing harsh opinions as if they were facts. I thought defamation wasnt allowed on DetroitYES forums. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4217 Registered: 11-2004 |
Scs100- from what I gathered in the initial post is that TJ's OWNS that parking lot. Who's stating that they're using the parking lot illegally?? Did I miss something? | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 767 Registered: 10-2003 |
If the owner of TJ had the legal right to lock out the customers of MCBW, he would. As I understand it, a judge ordered otherwise which means that when the separation of TJ and MCB took place, there was some accomodation for parking written into the deal. A deal which Mr. Lowell now wishes to break. I will be boycotting his establishments until he backs off one of the best and nicest small businessmen in Detroit...who was here long before Mr. Lowell ventured down from Birmingham. BTW - I also hear that health inspectors have been called, building inspectors, etc. He is waging a campaign of intimidation in his attempt to snuff out the competition. I guess he doesn't realize what a small town Detroit is. He will when his cash receipts shrink. (Message edited by histeric on January 08, 2007) | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 160 Registered: 12-2006 |
Someone mentioned the parking attendant putting cones by MCBC to block people parking there. So that's how I interpreted it. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3412 Registered: 08-2004 |
East_detroit... Slander and Libel are not allowed on this forum... but defamation has a free reign. Just go check out Non-Detroit Issues.... | ||
Jenay Member Username: Jenay Post Number: 175 Registered: 06-2005 |
The Traffic Jam is the oldest brew pub in Detroit. Their brew house used to be where MCBC is now. I absolutely love the Traffic Jam - the food, the beer, the atmosphere, etc. Went there for lunch on Saturday in fact. Not a big fan of MCBC. (Message edited by Jenay on January 08, 2007) | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1444 Registered: 05-2005 |
histeric, wow, thanks for the insight. for the record I never said the parking lot guy was being a jerk. he was just doing his job for sure | ||
Oliverdouglas Member Username: Oliverdouglas Post Number: 64 Registered: 02-2006 |
I can't help but think there's more here than we know. I good businessperson would know that MCBC and TJ's in close proximity is GOOD for both of them - creates a destination. My recent attempt to do business with TJ's does lead me to lend some credence to the "is Lowell a dick?" theory. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 768 Registered: 10-2003 |
Otherwise, why would he hire people to block off the parking on the days/evenings when the TJ is closed. Mark my words, this will prove to be a greedy land grab to undo the terms of his original purchase. Shame on Mr. Lowell. Again, if you care about the future of our fair city, you will join me in sending a message to the owner of TJ, The Bronx, and Cliff Bells. The little power we have is how we conduct ourselves as consumers and I will choose the Park Bar (and its sympathetic owner) over CB and its obviously clueless overlord. Too bad since I am a long time patron of two joints and a new admirer of the new one. But shame, shame, shame on the unethical tactics and the obvious greed. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 215 Registered: 08-2006 |
Does anyone know whether defending against a common law easement claim might apply in this situation? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2936 Registered: 10-2003 |
I second Histeric's motion... I know both parties, and it's sad to see grownups (who have contributed to the local economy so much, and employ lots of Detroiters) acting like this over the simple addition of a pizza oven to the MCBW. Shame on Mr. Lowell. Boycott TJs, Cliff Bell's and the Bronx! | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 217 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote: OK, I am not a lawyer--and any on the forum may chime in to correct me--I now believe the term in question would be "adverse possession" and/or an "adverse easement." If Mr. Lowell wishes to enforce his property rights over the parking lot that he owns, must he do so at all hours? | ||
Lukabottle Member Username: Lukabottle Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2004 |
Traffic Jam was initially owned by a couple, Ben and Richard. They used to brew all the beer across the street at the MCBC. One of the owners passed away and the other retired to Florida. Traffic Jam was sold to a former waitress, Caroline, Scott's wife. As far as I could tell, by working there, she makes most of the desicions. Scott has done a lot for the community. He has renovating many rental properties including the Bronx. If any of you who used to goto Zoots, you should know, the Bronx was a crack hotel of sorts. I tend to believe that Scott's wife has more to do with it but I could be wrong. Also correct me, but isn't the Bronx owned not by Scott, but by Caroline's brother. I can't remember his name. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 225 Registered: 07-2006 |
Zephyr, I've only skimmed the thread because I am at work and don't have a ton of time, but the answer is that it depends. If we are talking about wanting to claim ownership of the property itself, we would be talking about adverse possession. If you were talking about a right to park on the property, etc., then you would be talking about an easement, though I learned it in law school as obtaining an easement "by prescription," which means the same thing. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1460 Registered: 05-2005 |
this all makes me wonder if the bronx still serves ghettoblaster :D (Message edited by gravitymachine on January 17, 2007) | ||
Karma101 Member Username: Karma101 Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2007 |
Motor City Brewing Works was founded by John Linardos in 1994 at 470 West Canfield. The brewery tap room was added in 2000. Prior to that, 1992, the brewery at that address was Detroit & Mackinac brewery. Tom Burns was the President and John Linardos was the sole brewery employee and vice president for most of that time. Sadly, Tom passed away from cancer in 1994 and the Detroit and Mackinac brands were contract brewed out of Pennsylvania for a short while. Ben Edwards, the original owner of Traffic Jam with his partner Richard Vincent, was the catalyst to all this in his attempt to get michigan to adopt legislation to accommodate brew-pubs. He built 470 West Canfield in order to challenge state law. In the late 80's and early 90's Tom Burns worked as Ben's attorney and challenged the states ban on brew-pubs. John Linardos worked for Ben as well during this time. In 1992 The legislation was finally passed but it did not help Ben as the legislation required a brew-pub to manufacture the beer under the same roof as the restaurant. Since the buildings were constructed across the street he could still not be a brewpub. Ben divested his interest in the brewery real estate and leased it to Tom who started Detroit and Mac- the first new brewery in Detroit since prohibition.TJ's did get their brew-pub license but Detroit and Mackinac as well as Motor City used to brew the wort and Traffic Jam would ferment and keg the beer in their dairy. When Ben and Richard retired they sold Motor City the real estate it had been leasing since 1994. They sold the restaurant on a land contract that began in 2000. The very special Mr. Ben Edwards passed away after a fight with cancer in 2005. He is dearly missed. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 257 Registered: 08-2006 |
Great post Karma101. Welcome to the forum and thanks for the history lesson. | ||
Eastdetroit224 Member Username: Eastdetroit224 Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2007 |
MCBW and TJ deeds are public records(as well as MCBW's access only easement) on file with the Wayne county Register of deeds, the only land Traffic Jam is attempting to "grab" is their own. | ||
Karma101 Member Username: Karma101 Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2007 |
Scott Lowell has asked the City of Detroit to shut down Motor City Brewing Works. Who do you think would buy the Motor City's real estate if that were to happen? To try to change history is to deny the truth. | ||
Jhartmich Member Username: Jhartmich Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2006 |
Scott Lowell did NOT ask the City of Detroit to shut down the MCBC. Exactly the opposite if you watched the city council meeting at which Scott presented his complaint. Having watched the entire presentation: Scott stated that in 2000 the zoning board approved the opening of the MCBC based on the fact that the MCBC had 120’ of frontage on Canfield and that the property extended all the way back to the alley. Based on the erroneous information which was believed to be accurate at the time, the MCBC came into being. The attorney for the MCBC showed a letter that Scott had signed himself embracing the existence of the MCBC. Later, after the love fest of 2000 ended, a grievance was filed when the parking lot was fenced and a judge ruled that patrons to the MCBC must have right-of-way access Scott is now arguing that the original zoning information was based on faulty information. (Funny how this now comes all-of-a-sudden when the MCBC decides to sell food. Even the city council had pondering looks when that was brought up) At the city council meeting the MCBC attorney scored a huge point when he showed the paper from 2000 which Scott signed himself recommending approval for the MCBC. The attorney smartly commented, “If your honorable body was provided faulty information in regards to the zoning of the MCBC, Mr. Lowell has no excuse to come back now and change his story; he provided the information, and then signed it!” I’m sure there is a bit of truth to the fact that having food at the MCBC ignited this. I’m not sure what’s going on with the Traffic Jam but the Bronx seems to have lost a lot of business. Maybe Scott, who is part owner with his brother-in-law Paul, are wary of another “bar food” style joint operating so close. Who knows? I hope they can work this out. Competition is good for the neighborhood. Cass Café after 20 years finally has drink specials after losing so much business to Harry’s and the Bronx. The Traffic Jam is not my kind of place but I certainly don’t want it to go away. I like the Bronx, and the MCBC is fun also. Twingo’s is a joke and I look forward to the day when they move something in that is more “neighborhood friendly”. If only we could get a sports bar in the WSU area! A “Harry’s 2” would be great: pizza, beer, and sports – this is Detroit! | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 686 Registered: 11-2003 |
Interesting information, Jhart. By the way, why is Twingo's a joke? | ||
Karma101 Member Username: Karma101 Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2007 |
No joke; twingo's rocks. Different colors for different moods. this string is getting silly. | ||
Granmontrules Member Username: Granmontrules Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2007 |
I am so confused. I love the Bronx, MCBC is ok, and I think TJ is great to, however, if they are picking on the little guy I tend to back the little guy. Hmmmm much to ponder here? Great burger at Bronx over my liberal leanings of protecing the little guy. |
