  Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 63 Registered: 02-2007 |
I want to acquire, restore, and exhibit one of Detroit's old streetcars. I know the city sold 184 streetcars to Mexico City in 1956 and that most of those vehicles remained in service through the 1980s. I wonder if any are still around. I also wonder if there are any old streetcars rotting on lots or in warehouses in Detroit. Anyone have any leads? There is no streetcar in the Detroit Historical Society's collection of 200,000 artifacts. I want to change that. | ||
Rfban Member Username: Rfban Post Number: 88 Registered: 02-2004 |
Funny you mention this, I was just thinking about the streetcars when I pass the seemingly "trolley-bus" grave yard on Ferry and Fisher. Do these trolleys ever get used? It seems there are an awful lot of them and they are always parked. RFBAN | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2007 |
I saw a silly trolley bus during the art festival, my girlfriend was all excited,' look!' she said, 'a trolley!' it was heartbreaking to tell her that, no, it's a bus. It runs on diesel and pollutes. cute though. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2306 Registered: 06-2004 |
I think Henry Ford Museum has one - find out if they know where there's more | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 314 Registered: 10-2003 |
I could be wrong on both these counts, but I think the Michigan Transit Museum has one. http://www.michigantransitmuse um.org/ Also, I think the Henry Ford has one. The rest trashed or exported... I had the opportunity to work on Cleveland PCCs in Red Hook Brooklyn for one summer. There were 13 cars that needed rehab. We got a few going but the project was scrapped unfortunately. PCCs were amazing, simple and efficient. They would last forever with proper maintenance. San Fran's done a good job of rehabbing them... | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 315 Registered: 10-2003 |
PCCs!!! http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mflee t/histcars.htm http://www.streetcar.org/ | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1025 Registered: 07-2004 |
Yeah, the one at Selfridge is in pretty poor shape. Needs a total overhaul. It does have some funky Mexico City modifications to it, but it's very much a PCC. http://keberly.org/archive/1 | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2003 |
thanks detroitnerd. wow. what a wonderfully racist ad! i always thought the DSR winged logo was one of our best efforts. it will rise again... | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1275 Registered: 04-2006 |
JB3, sorry to disappoint you but those trolley buses run on Compressed Natural Gas and pollutes less than your car does. It does make me wonder why they only pull those things out for special events though. | ||
Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 64 Registered: 02-2007 |
Does the Michigan Transit Museum own the PCC at Selfridge? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1027 Registered: 07-2004 |
^^Yes. I hear it's the last one, that all the Mexico City ones were junked. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 2342 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Detroit Transit History website might be of interest: http://www.detroittransithisto ry.info/index.html | ||
Masterblaster Member Username: Masterblaster Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2005 |
The city of San Fransisco has one of the PCC streetcars that the city of Detroit bought in the late 1940's | ||
Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 65 Registered: 02-2007 |
Let's daydream. What would it take to complete a restoration of one of Detroit's PCC streetcars and bring it downtown as a permanent interpretive exhibit for the public? | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 312 Registered: 03-2007 |
damn i wish we can get at least one trolley in the middle of Woodward ave. Even those Trolley buses would be a good alternative Trolley bus A---casino land Trolley bus B---Midtown Trolley bus C---Riverfront Trolley bus D---CBD | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1028 Registered: 07-2004 |
Jeez, those trolley buses? Don't get me started. The antiquated lines of 19th century travel, with none of the zero-emissions and speedy right-of-way. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 316 Registered: 03-2007 |
Well it sure beats waiting 20 years for our first light rail | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 277 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: And producing electricity to run a real trolley doesn't pollute? Hmmm. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 555 Registered: 05-2005 |
The "rubber tire trolleys" of Detroit are a joke. And an embarrassment. Typical by-product of a region with it's head up its ass and dominated by CarHeads. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1029 Registered: 07-2004 |
Correct, Wally. But it does take some pollution off our streets, and puts it where it belongs, over Canada. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 556 Registered: 05-2005 |
Right DN - especially that lovely diesel soot spewed all over everything by those lovely buses. | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2005 |
There are three surviving Detroit Street Railways streetcars still in existence in the U.S. I don't know if any remain in Mexico. The Michigan Transit Museum has a PCC car reimported from Mexico City in storage at Selfridge Air National Guard Base. This car is still in the modified condition as operated in Mexico, with an additional door cut into it. I have never seen it, but it could probably use considerable restoration, and I'm sure the Museum would appreciate any help that could be donated. It is visible in internet aerial photos of Selfridge. Write the Museum at P.O. Box 12, Mount Clemens, MI 48046. One Peter Witt car was at the Henry Ford, but was recently sold to the Illinois Railway Museum of Union (McHenry County), Illinois. Its carbody was heavily restored at the Henry Ford, but its interior is incomplete and needs reassembly. The Museum has no plans to work on it immediately, but it is stored indoors. It will not be for sale, but you can write IRM at P.O. Box 427, Union, IL 60180. (Honest Nick of IRM is always willing to deal, but probably not on this car, since it is IRM's only Peter Witt.) The other Peter Witt has been at the Ohio Railway Museum north of Columbus, Ohio, for many years. This is a large collection of midwest trolleys and interurbans that has fallen into semi-collapse. I have no mailing address for it, but it is off Proprietors' Road in Worthington, Ohio. The Museum is said to be trying to reorganize and rationalize its collection, so this car should be available for repatriation to Michigan, but I don't know if the organization is inclined to part with it. They would probably insist that the car be transferred to an organization with some substance and a plan for its preservation. The Worthington car has been stored outdoors for decades, and may need heavy restoration. I have not seen it since 1975, and don't recall its condition as of that time. It would indeed be an attractive idea to display one of these cars in downtown Detroit or elsewhere at an appropriate site along one of the DSR routes. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 321 Registered: 03-2007 |
Trolley buses are not embarrassing, cars only society with half ass busses are embarrassing. pessimism is embarrassing. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 558 Registered: 05-2005 |
I disagree. Fake trolleys that look like cartoons that spew diesel soot down streets that once boasted one of the greatest REAL trolley systems in the world is a COMPLETE EMBARRASSMENT. Its kind of like being forced to eat McDonalds for every single meal for the rest of your life, after eating well up until then. (Message edited by Futurecity on June 13, 2007) | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4239 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah that ad is racist as hell... But those were the good old times according to some forumers... | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 559 Registered: 05-2005 |
Explain to me how wanting something better for the city besides total dog shit is racist... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4533 Registered: 08-2004 |
Speaking of trolleys, where exactly are the Washington Blvd. Trolleys today? Some have mentioned that they were sold, but then there was a newspaper item about Peter Stroh protesting a move to sell them. So I take it they are in storage around here somewhere. Had they been sold off, it would have made it into the papers, and would have been posted here in the last 2-3 years. But not a word... I personally think that they would make a nice addition to the Riverwalk and Rivertown. But does anyone know their current status? | ||
Ltdave Member Username: Ltdave Post Number: 68 Registered: 09-2006 |
went to every link posted... what is a "PCC" street car? david | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2308 Registered: 06-2004 |
PCC streetcars | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1028 Registered: 02-2006 |
Futurecity, stylin was talking about the ad in the old streetcar pictured in the link a couple pages above. Not your post. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 561 Registered: 05-2005 |
^^Thanks. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1102 Registered: 11-2003 |
JB3, what age is your girlfriend that makes the condescension appropriate? 8? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1031 Registered: 07-2004 |
The Washington Boulevard trolley tracks were removed before the Super Bowl. It was (yet another) street makeover for Washington and Cobo. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 435 Registered: 12-2006 |
The Washington Boulevard trolley was not popular, mainly (IMHO) because there aren't many places on that street that people want to go to. It ran for 27 years, 1976 to 2003. Ridership peaked in the early years and dwindled after that. Practically nobody was riding it at all by the late '90s. It was a novelty, and like any novelties, it quickly became old news. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2006 |
The current Washington Blvd. is much much nicer than the old one also. Maybe they can clean up other roadways in a similar fashion. I still think Woodward in front of the DIA should at least have a grassy median. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1033 Registered: 07-2004 |
Not the median debate again! That's worse than the monorail debate! --TUNING OUT-- | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1480 Registered: 11-2003 |
One other thing about the Washington Blvd trolley is it was never operating when people were around. It would have been great when there was something going on at Hart Plaza and then a game at Comerica Park, but it was never operating during that. If you put a car out when something was going on, people might have rode it. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 392 Registered: 09-2004 |
https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/6790/63967.html?11344285 67 Check out that link and it will inform you of the few surviving DSR cars out there, and also is a great basis for some chat about DSR and streetcars around the D. Hope this helps | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 202 Registered: 09-2006 |
I believe the Shoemaker Terminal has an old streetcar in one of its garages. I stay not too far from there but it's there (last time I drove around in that area it was anyway). | ||
Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 67 Registered: 02-2007 |
Waxx, could you please educate a Detroiter-in-the-Making: What is the Shoemaker Terminal and where is its location? Who owns the building (and the streetcar within)? Busterwmu, thank you for the link. Good stuff. Very good. This will take some time to develop, but develop it will. | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 993 Registered: 11-2003 |
Shoemaker Terminal was the site of the DSR offices as well as THE storage and service center for the East Side. The site is currently a bus service facility for DDOT. The old headquarters building stands empty on Shoemaker, just west of St. Jean. The yard ran North/South alongside St. Jean from Jefferson up to roughly Shoemaker. The site is evident because from Jefferson to Shoemaker, there is a giant earthen berm, complete with trees, shielding the neighborhood to the west from the Chrysler plant to the east. It extends the full length of the old yard. Tracks used to cross at Kercheval, Vernor, and Charlevoix. I've never seen or heard anything about a streetcar in storage, but there may be an old DSR bus. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 15 Registered: 09-2006 |
Just a slight correction 'Eric_c' on the DDOT (former DSR) Shoemaker Terminal. You're correct regarding the old DSR administration building that stands empty on Shoemaker, between Lillibridge and St Jean. But the terminal yard only runs along St. Jean from "E. Warren" to Shoemaker street, not Jefferson, which is nearly a mile and a half to the south. Regarding the old Washington Blvd trolleys, 'Waxx' was correct. At least two are being stored at that facility, including one that was completely rehabbed but has never since seen service. The old double-decker car has had its upper floor removed to fit into the building. I do have photos of both cars, which I had planned to post on my web-site by now, but haven't gotten around to it. I'll have to dig them up if anyone's interested. There is also an old 1968 vintage DSR bus there as well. btw--There is a sad story behind what happened to those WB cars, which are probably lost to the city forever. On an added note: The Shoemaker facility is currently closed because of major reconstruction work scheduled to be performed there in the near future. Unfortunately, the work had been put on hold for the last few years. Scheduled to be demolished are two of the three original buildings that opened back in 1922; the old administration building, and the old former streetcar carbarn and maintenance building located almost adjacent to the administration building. The terminal offices (also built in 1922) are scheduled to be remodeled. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 16 Registered: 09-2006 |
Those so-called rubber-tire "bus-trolleys" are of the alternative fuel, compressed natural gas, variety. I know for a fact that a number of DDOT operators couldn't stand them and my feelings were not far behind. Although they were promoted as the nostalgic style "American Heritage Streetcar," the transit historian nature in me makes me view them as "fake trolleys." I thought they were a waste and misused for the most part, but for whatever reasons, some folks loved them. They're basically tourist attraction vehicles, not transit vehicles. There were 25 in total and were purchased between 1998 and 2000. From my understanding, a former DDOT director decided to purchase the last of the fleet to provide shuttle buses after the closing of the old Cadillac Square Transit Center in 2001. They were to serve as shuttle buses to transport passengers from the future Times Square Transit Center, which many critics felt was too far removed from the core downtown area. But since the transit center took years to get off the ground, the CNG trolleys were used for other purposes, such as mini-bus service and shuttles for special downtown events. I won't go into all the ugly details of their demise, but they were costing the city too much to operate. They've basically been retired since June 2004, but however, they were used briefly for Tiger Shuttles to Comerica Park last year. The department has tried to sell them and auction them off, but no takers. So they just sit. | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 204 Registered: 09-2006 |
Thanks, Bc_n_dtown and Eric_c 4 informing Irvine_laird about the whereabouts of the shoemaker terminal-when will it reopen I don't know-and I forgot about the double decker trolleys downtown. I'd say the last time they ran was 2001, 2002 @ the latest. And the best Buses were the ones that had the backlight (rear windshields) with the radiator (I'm assuming that it was one) to the side. The only fault I found with those models was that the doors were so narrow the handicapped could not access the bus (most drivers called them 'coaches' back then). The last time I saw one of those buses was either in '92 of '93 and I do miss 'em. Any chance of one of them being restored and brought into a museum.....? | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 995 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bc_n_dtown - Today, the Shoemaker Terminal yard truncates at Warren, but the streetcar yard used to extend much, much, farther south. Look at a Google Earth image of the area and you'll see what I mean - a contiguous, north/south strip from Jefferson to Shoemaker - remnants of the old car yard. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 17 Registered: 09-2006 |
You are correct 'Eric_c' there are indeed strips of land or berms along St. Jean, but they're not there because of a former streetcar yard. You might be confusing two separate DSR terminals here. At one time the DSR had two terminals along St. Jean. Of course the Shoemaker Carhouse (now a bus terminal) at Shoemaker and St. Jean, and the Jefferson Carhouse, which was located on St. Jean between Kercheval and Jefferson, where the now closed Detroit Police Station is located (sorry, I don't remember the precinct number). Back during my bus driving years during the late seventies, I remember working the Clairmount line which travels along St. Jean, and there were established homes facing both sides of St. Jean south of Warren to Mack that had been there for years. The narrow strip of land currently there is a result of the expansion of the Chrysler Mack Ave. Stamping Plant during the 1980's. Although the plant was extended along the east side of St. Jean between Warren and Mack the homes located along the west side were demolished and replaced by the grassy berms to offset the plant from the residential neighborhood to the west. Unfortunately, I can't point you to an aerial photo of the area because access to the DTE old Detroit aerial photo site seems to be closed for some reason. (Anyone know why???) I did save one of the Shoemaker Terminal from 1961, I could crop and post it if you like. But unfortunately I didn't save any prior years, including the ones showing the old Jefferson Carhouse (darn it!). | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 18 Registered: 09-2006 |
Here are a couple of links that might jar a few memories about the demise of the Washington Boulevard Trolleys http://finance.groups.yahoo.co m/group/DSR-2-DOT/message/287 http://finance.groups.yahoo.co m/group/DSR-2-DOT/message/296 Here's what happen to a few of the cars that went to Seattle to be refurbished. Interesting to say the least. http://www.historicrailway.com /pro-trolley.html | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 19 Registered: 09-2006 |
Waxx- The Shoemaker Terminal has been closed now since 2004. Rumor has it that work is scheduled to begin soon. At least it was mentioned in the city's budget for FY 2007-2008. Regarding the buses you mentioned, I believe you're referring to the GMC "new-look" coaches (a.k.a. "silver-sides") the city purchased between 1960 and 1975. Only one (coach #2621, built in 1968) has been preserved by the city, and believe it or not it still runs. It's made an appearance at a few special occasions. Of course the coach can't be used in regular service because (like you mentioned) it's not equipped with the ADA regulation requirements to accommodate disabled passengers. Interior and exterior photos of the coach can be found beginning at: http://www.detroittransithisto ry.info/PhotoGalley/Photos1960 sB.html (Scroll down the page to the 3rd photo and following. The next page displays additional interior (click-on) photos of the coach) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 936 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: The DTE Aerial Photo Collection is available here. I had no problems accessing it just now. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 345 Registered: 03-2007 |
i know you guys hate these trolley buses, but think of the possibilty for summer 2009. 3 top notch casino resort hotels will be in full swing. Rock financial will possibly be under construction along with whatever other company joins them. Macys department store may be open for business. Magic Johnson theater may be open near Comerica Park. The riverfront condo will open its doors, and Woodward will be our Main street like intended. We dont have a sub way or a light rail, so wat better way to get people from MGM to Riverwalk? How about leaving Greek town To the institute of arts? Downtown LA has 6 dash buses that handles mini routes around downtown. Plus with our wild weather, we need every choice possible | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 20 Registered: 09-2006 |
Thanks Mikeg- for some reason the link I had saved for the DTE Aerial Collection was incomplete, but has now been corrected. But that's funny, it worked before.(hmmmn!) | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 21 Registered: 09-2006 |
Downtown_remix- Using those bus trolleys for downtown shuttles is cool....your scenario sounds great! They can serve as a sort of tourist attraction vehicle shuttling passengers between casinos and whatever. They were used that way at first. My problem was using them in regular line-haul service, which DDOT was sort-of forced to do. They were being used on lines such as Woodrow Wilson and Holbrook during their last years of service. This created a lot of inhouse problems. I know a lot of employees at the terminal level were glad to see them go. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4556 Registered: 08-2004 |
I think that a new Trolley Line should be built connecting the 3 casinos, that would utilize the historic trolley cars in storage. It could have a turntable at one end at MotorCity Casino, travel down Grand River (thru a section of Midtown) to MGM, and then continue down Grand River, with a stop at the Times Sq. People Mover Station, Washington Blvd., Woodward, Broadway (PM Station), Harmonie Park, and then wend its' way over towards Greektown for the other turntable. Even though Casinos don't like to have their patrons leaving to visit the other casinos (and other attractions), it would give the visitors who parked at the MGM and MotorCity "fortress" casinos an option to easily visit other sights downtown without having to get back into their cars first. Ditto for the Greektown casino, which is not fortress-like. This way the trolleys would have something that the old Washington Blvd. trolleys never had... destinations! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2311 Registered: 12-2005 |
Bc_n_dtown, my old DTE was http://techtools.culma.wayne.e du/media/low_res/aerial_photos / and it failed too. Thanks, Mikeg!  |
