Al_t_publican Member Username: Al_t_publican
Post Number: 194 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:57 am: | |
This plant that grows in and around concrete alleys and even on the roofs of vacant builings, is this a plant that Henry Ford brought here that was said to be a potential fuel source for cars? I've read about Ford's "Fordlania" concept for Brazil, but is there also an invasive type plant he or someone brought here from China that may be what some call "ghetto tree"? |
Psip Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 1917 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 4:40 am: | |
The Ailanthus altissima is actually a Chinese garden tree that spreads easily because it can grow in highly polluted soils. Even a small crack in concrete is enough for the seeds to develop huge root clusters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A ilanthus_altissima |
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 770 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 4:57 am: | |
It's also known as the "Tree of Heaven." Came over pre-Ford, in the late 1800s. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 6024 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 6:55 am: | |
I like those ghetto trees. It gives Detroit a pre-tropical feel. |
Pete Member Username: Pete
Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:31 am: | |
Man, do I hate this tree. When we first bought our house in Detroit six years ago, it took me three years and a new lawn in the back yard to get rid of its roots. It will just spread and pop up everywhere. Then we went to Greece a few years back and I saw one growing on the Acropolis and laughed. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1105 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:52 am: | |
I have also heard it called the "ghetto palm" |
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1688 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:00 am: | |
ghetto palm is the term i use. they're just big weeds as far as i'm concerned. if someone were to purposely planted a grove or tree line of them or something, they might be more attractive to me i suppose |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9426 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:21 am: | |
These must be the ghetto kite-eating trees. Heard that term a few weeks back...for those ubiquitous plastic grocery bags floating on the inner-city breezes until encountering the even MORE ubiquitous razor-wire fence, or ghetto-kite eating tree. Paper or plastic?! OH, give me the one that never bio-degrades. |
Bumble Member Username: Bumble
Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:03 am: | |
quote:Paper or plastic?! OH, give me the one that never bio-degrades. Nothing degrades in an oxygen deprived environment, so paper bags in landfills will be with us forever, too. The choice becomes: Which one takes up less space? |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9428 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
How do you define space? Probably in the case of landfill OR atmosphere, paper would win with less bulk. In landfill the answer is pretty clear. In atmosphere...it is the opposite. I'd rather not have these damn things blowing everywhere! Ghetto kites. |
Bumble Member Username: Bumble
Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:29 am: | |
quote:How do you define space? Probably in the case of landfill OR atmosphere, paper would win with less bulk. In landfill the answer is pretty clear. In atmosphere...it is the opposite. I'd rather not have these damn things blowing everywhere! Ghetto kites. It's not at all a metaphysical or aesthetic conundrum. If I crumpled them both up, the plastic bag is smaller. It's a test you can even try at home if the idea proves difficult conceptually. |
Lukabottle Member Username: Lukabottle
Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:48 am: | |
Or you could recycle. We take both plastic and paper. We aren't picky. Sorry, couldn't help it. |
Texorama Member Username: Texorama
Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:15 pm: | |
The Tree of Heaven was for many years often planted as a street tree for the very reasons that have bedeviled Pete above--the things are pretty much indestructible. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1106 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
This is an email that I got from a nature biologist (I forget the technical term) when I asked her about the tree: "Hey paul, here are some of the control methods i could find. unfortunately, you're talking about the tree of heaven - Ailanthus altissima. this is an invasive plant in 44 states of the US. short of manually removing the seedlings by hand, i don't know what's more effective. I could tell you about certain herbicides that are effective, but i'll have to do more research to see which ones are best for soil chemistry too. interesting fact... if you break one of the leaflets in half, it smells like nasty peanut butter. Mowing: As with most trees, mowing of seedlings is quite effective Girdling: Girdling is effective for killing the tops, but the plant will resprout Coppicing: Coppicing of female trees is a good method for preventing seed production. This needs to be done fairly often, as the resprouts quickly grow strong enough to begin production Grinding: Sprouts from the outer root system are common, if possible the area should be mowed for at least 1 year after grinding. Pulling: Seedlings and saplings pull easily due to the shallow root systems Flame: Controlled brush fires will girdle at the ground. Systemic herbicides (synthetic): Glyphosate is effective both as a spray and as a stump treatment, but reapplications may be necessary. Biocontrols (microorganisms): Verticillium can kill the plant, but would be inappropriate as a biocontrol due to it's long life in the soil. Biocontrols (animal): Several insect species are being considered as biocontrols. Grazing: Goats will strip the bark, including the bark of large trees. Cattle will eat the seedlings. Deer do not provide control. Disposal: All parts can be composted, including seeds, since they have a short-lived dormancy. The resinous sap may pose a problem for small chippers." |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1012 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:29 pm: | |
Ailanthus is pretty easy to pull out all at once the first year. After that it gets harder. Crush the leaves and they smell like burnt peanut butter. My least favorite foreign species is the Japanese Knotweed, personally. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1013 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:32 pm: | |
Some people consider it invasive. But the only biodiversity it probably reduces is the biodiversity of weeds in urban environments. In fact, it can often grow where nothing else can, stopping erosion, and ADDING to diversity. |
Quozl Member Username: Quozl
Post Number: 730 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:34 pm: | |
^^^Interesting point. |
Bibs Member Username: Bibs
Post Number: 694 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:48 pm: | |
Something good always comes from something bad. As Detroitnerd said, it does have benefits which might not be immediately apparent. I have a Chinese or Russian Elm in my back yard which I think grows a foot every Winter. It's seeds grow in any thing and everywhere. I think that it will take over the yard in about five years. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1016 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:53 pm: | |
I think the concern over invasive species is out of proportion to the threat. Honestly, most of the places where so-called invasives take over are areas that have been disturbed by pollution, overgrazing, industry, development, runoff, etc. An ounce of sense in the way things are developmed would be worth a pound of restriction lists and species bans. Where's Occam's Razor when you need a shave? We have a problem with biodiversity in the United States. How will that be improved by banning or killing plants? |
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 5343 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:11 pm: | |
Charlottepaul and Detroitnerd have given us HOF posts. Thanks, merci. jjaba's question is about the tree growing out of his high 14 story bldg. roof downtown. jjaba is having trouble getting his lawn mower up there. The tree started out in a coffee cup left by the repairmen in 1975, and then grew right down into the roof and top two floors of jjaba's bldg. For obvious reason, they called the theater next door, "Palms." jjaba, LOL. |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9432 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 5:19 pm: | |
Bumble, Ha, I just realized I spoke exactly the opposite I intended this morning. That should have said plastic instead of paper with 'less bulk'. I shouldn't post without caffeine, dunno how else that could happen. Cheers! |
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 612 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 5:25 pm: | |
Here is a random shot out the window: http://i148.photobucket.com/al bums/s22/bulletmagnet69/Wednsd ayJune062007203.jpg?t=11815964 68 They are EVERYWHERE! |
Courtney Member Username: Courtney
Post Number: 142 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
The problem with these (and many other) invasive plants is that they CAN (and have) pushed native species to extinction because they have no natural checks and balances in areas in which they aren't native. With these POS ghetto palms, they poison the soil around them. Things cannot grow around them. This doesn't help erosion, it furthers it. People aren't mulching underneath these nasty things, so while it used to be native grasses and wildflowers, it's dirt. Our old house had one of them attempting to kill a lilac. The lilac stems even near any of the roots off the ghetto palm I managed to pull were far weaker than those further away from any roots. Each year I'd cut the stump down several times a year and try to pull as many roots as I could, which was a pita since it was at least a few years old by the time I moved in. Ever wonder why you may see less red mulberry trees than in your childhood? Thank the invasive white mulberry. Invasive plants are a real problem. Please research before you buy/plant anything, because some things will do a lot more harm than you'd imagine. |
Patrick Member Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4539 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 7:13 pm: | |
They arent the prettiest of plants/tress that's for damn sure |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1020 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 7:17 pm: | |
Right. It has nothing to do with overgrazing, poor land management, or anything else. It is all the fault of those evil, invasive plants. |
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67
Post Number: 134 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:06 pm: | |
In my Buildings of Detroit book there is a picture of the nearly new Ransom Gillis House with an Ailanthus right in front of the windows as a decorative landscaping piece. Funny how it's come full circle!!!!! (Both the house and the tree!) |
321brian Member Username: 321brian
Post Number: 370 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:08 pm: | |
Courtney, These trees can grow anywhere and next to anything. They do not poison the soil. The are simply more competitive than other species. Black Walnut trees DO produce a toxin that makes it difficult for some other plants to grow near it. Remember, it's not the plants fault. It is ours. People brought or enabled these species to come here. |
Courtney Member Username: Courtney
Post Number: 143 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:44 pm: | |
Might want to let those that know a few things about plants that you have determined they don't release toxins, brian. This and this have a whole slew of sources that apparently haven't seen your research. The black walnut argument is far far different - it's a native North American species and quite a bit will grow near it. Yes, idiot humans are the cause of invasive species. It then doesn't help that future generations continue the cycle by saying "oh well, I like it, I want it" and can't see that not everything should simply be left to take over. It's funny that while invasive, non-native bugs like emerald ash borer and the lovely destructive zebra mussel are aggressively fought against, equally destructive plants are allowed to flourish because if it's green, it must be good. |
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 1011 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:08 pm: | |
During my days as a GreenCorps member the Ghetto Palm was a source of much discussion amongst the Greening staff. I remember our team name my first year there was the "ghetto palms" (we had to name our teams after a native Michigan plant) and what I learned about them was their wood is very weak and so is their bark, and if you crack one open it smells like peanut butter. |
Jiscodazz Member Username: Jiscodazz
Post Number: 31 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:42 pm: | |
Those thing are everywhere and not just here in the ghetto. Look along the sides of the the freeway. They are everywhere! |
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67
Post Number: 135 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:42 am: | |
Ailanthus are certainly pretty competitive but I have first hand experience that they're not all that dangerous to native species. 6 years ago we bought this abandoned farm house with six acres. 5 acres had grown up into natural woods, the other two had a lot of brush, including Ailanthus. Where ever the native trees are that are healthy and recreating a natural ecosystem there are NO Ailanthus. They mostly grew in the former dump areas on the property. Slowly the few Ailanthus left are being outcompeted by native trees. In other words, Ghetto Palms are far from the most invasive species you can find. I'd rather not have them here either but they're not hard to control if someone is taking even marginal care of the land. (Hence the term ghetto palm.) Hey Jiscodazz, along the freeways you also find Sumac trees which are native and look very much Ghetto Palms at distance. They are usually the first trees in an area that has not been mowed for several years and provide shade for the oaks and maples that eventually take over that site. |
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 635 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 5:30 pm: | |
No doubt, these trees (Ailanthus) are more of a pest then they are good. Sure, they can grow in the smallest crack, and the poorest soil, but they do over compete with our native trees. It seems over the years, more non-native plants and animals have been encroaching on our soil and waterways. What to do? I'm not sure, but taking care of your own little piece of heaven is about all you can do. The bigger picture I think is out of our hands. IE: zebra mussel. I think in the end we will be left with a planet where nothing is native to anywhere, and that’s a shame. |
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 776 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 6:04 pm: | |
From the freep. ASKED AND ANSWERED Thursday, 7/20/2006 QUESTION: What are those smelly, palm-like trees I see growing all over Detroit? ANSWER: You must be talking about the tree of heaven, also known as the Chinese sumac or, as it is often lovingly called in Detroit, the ghetto palm. The plant's name is pretty misleading - there's nothing heavenly about it. The first tree of heaven (Ailanthus altissima) was brought to the United States from China by a Philadelphia gardener in 1784. It was widely planted in cities because it can grow in polluted conditions. The trees can grow pretty much anywhere, even on rooftops. They grow fast and can reach 80 feet. They smell kind of like rancid peanut butter. They can survive drought. And they're tough to get rid of. That makes them more a weed than a tree, and they can outgrow nearly any native tree by blocking the sunlight. The roots give off a toxin that can kill or inhibit the growth of other plants. So how do you send this pest of heaven back to hell? You need to remove every last bit of root or the tree will respawn. On a larger one, keep hacking it down to deplete its store of nutrients and lather the stump with herbicide. -- By Dan Austin Send questions about metro Detroit to ask thefreepress@freepress.com. |
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 648 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 8:28 am: | |
A friend of mine who lives in Indian Village once told me that the city workers there would cut them down, and then pour diesel fuel over them to kill the root. I dont know if this method is approved, as it seems a little risky. |
Rfban Member Username: Rfban
Post Number: 90 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 8:51 am: | |
I usually cut them down and then hammer a 1/2" piece of copper pipe into the center of the stump. they still tend to resprout but in different areas. Eventually it will die. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 151 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 9:00 am: | |
"I usually cut them down and then hammer a 1/2" piece of copper pipe into the center of the stump. they still tend to resprout but in different areas. Eventually it will die." I get it, some scrapper will steal the "stump" for the copper. |
321brian Member Username: 321brian
Post Number: 375 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 11:05 am: | |
courtney, Nice first sentence. My point was they don't poison the soil but yes, they will poison another plant if the other plant touches its. Is it difficult to type around the tree you are hugging? |
321brian Member Username: 321brian
Post Number: 376 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 11:08 am: | |
courtney, Sorry for the misinformation. Yes, it poisons other plants. However, the other plant has to be touching its roots or bark to be affected. It does not poison the soil. Is it difficult to reach the keyboard with your arms around that tree? |