 
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 896
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:48 pm: |    |
I have a stupid question about mass transit and I apologize in advance because I'm sure its already been asked and answered.
I was looking at a map of the city of Detroit and I noticed there is an incredible amount of railroad lines, presumably an artifiact of the city's industial heritiage.
With all these rail lines, many of which must not be used much anymore, why is the light rail such an expensive and seemingly unattanble goal? It seems like they could leverage the existing rail infrastructure, no? |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4177
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:53 pm: | |
You would think so, but I feel that it is moreso a political obstacle in the region more than anything else that keeps it from getting built... |
Cdent
Member
Username: Cdent
Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:59 pm: | |
I have heard that old skool story that "hey this is the MOTOR CITY" CARS CARS AND MORE CARS. but if you go way back to the early 1900s before henry put his model T on the road what do you think brought the Mass of people downtown to work in the great city of CARS.. Rails.. thats right first horse type trolleys then electric trolleys. and if you talk to any of the old timers they will tell you about taking the trolly from royal oak or even Pontiac. straight down woodward. |
Sticks
Member
Username: Sticks
Post Number: 317
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 12:00 am: | |
I'm sure a lot of it is still used. And by used I mean, used by freight companies. I think here in Michigan a freight train is not supposed to be on the same line 30 minutes before or after a passenger train has passed through. Not only that but look at where the abandoned lines are. Would it really make sense to put up stations along them? |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 995
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 12:21 am: | |
Ray, if the map is truly up to date, those rail lines are all still used. Most of the ones left that aren't stub-ended branches are used at least several times a day. Even if a mass transit track could be squeezed into the same right of way as a freight track, the freight railroads will ask for extensive barriers and isolation from the freight track(s).
Sticks-- there isn't any such law or rule in Michigan. It would be impossible to carry out, because there are always freights out there and the passenger trains have to pass them at some point. Lots of times in East Lansing where I live, a freight train will pass the Amtrak train while the Amtrak train is sitting at the station, or moving. |
Sticks
Member
Username: Sticks
Post Number: 320
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 12:27 am: | |
Burnsie, thanks for straightening me out. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5560
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 12:28 am: | |
I figure most of these lines are still in use as freight lines.
BTW, these wouldn't be suitable for light rail (LTR), anyway, which use a different gauge of rail, hence the name 'light rail.' They could be used for heavy commuter rail, though. Still, it would be best (and more costly) to have separate freight and passenger lines to cut down on scheduling conflicts and backups. Shared-line transit is a headache as SEMCOG is finding out as they are moving forward with commuter rail plans. You become beholden to the likes of Canadian National and other freight line owners. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 996
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:18 am: | |
Lmichigan-- Light rail uses the same gauge as freight lines--at least all the systems I can think of in the US do. The weight of the rail traditionally was lighter than that of freight lines. But these days, the rail of "light rail" systems is usually well within the section range of what freight railroads use. The term "light rail" is still used, though, as a convenient way to differentiate the different systems.
Turning radii can still be much tighter on dedicated light rail systems, though. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5562
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:46 am: | |
Really? I was always under the impression that the you couldn't run a freight train on the light rail of most city systems. Light rail is often called city rail, and I'd always heard that the two used different gauges of rail. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2550
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:58 am: | |
Per the Federal Railroad Administration, light rail (or even heavy rail) cannot operate on freight tracks. The vehicles would not withstand impact with a freight or passenger train.
The same right-of-way could be used, but FRA requires a minimum lateral separation from freight/passenger operations, unless a continuous barrier (fence) is provided.
Don't forget that to build light rail, you need more than just tracks. Stations, electric catenaries, vehicles, and service shops cost money too. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:14 pm: | |
Quoting Burnsie: "Ray, if the map is truly up to date, those rail lines are all still used. Most of the ones left that aren't stub-ended branches are used at least several times a day. Even if a mass transit track could be squeezed into the same right of way as a freight track, the freight railroads will ask for extensive barriers and isolation from the freight track(s)."
Like for example there is a track that crosses Livernois near Lyndon that basically follows Oakwood Blvd., then McNichols then connects back into more major rail lines near Forest Lawn Cem. through the middle part of Detroit. I have never seen a train on it in 5+ years; if the tracks go from somewhere to somewhere and are vacant, would they not work for a piece of the transit plan? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 980
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:28 pm: | |
Yeah, the line between Livernois and Wyoming on the west side seems disused. The old line (Manufacturer's Rwy?) between Bellevue and Beaufait is all easement now, same with sub-city rail south of Mack. Plenty of disused rail. If a bargain could ever be struck, could you imagine all those old manufacturing plants becoming lofts connected to downtown via old freight ROW? I won't see it in my lifetime, I bet, but it's possible someday. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3242
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:34 pm: | |
Try entering "light rail" into the Wikipedia in order to learn something about it. There, you might discover that light rail, on average, costs some $35 million per mile to build and it's suitable to move some 10,000 to 25,000 passengers per hour per track. BTW, Seattle's LRT--being an oddity--cost $179 million per mile to build.
Anybody who knows anything about Detroit's mass-transit needs and expectations knows that any LRT here could only be utilized to a ridiculously tiny percentage of its maximum capacity. Therefore, pursuing LRT here would be very foolish to an already dying metropolis due to its tiny expected usage and exorbitantly expensive capital and operating costs to the taxpayers. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
That is a good point too Detroitnerd. That would even take this idea to another level. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:51 pm: | |
"If a bargain could ever be struck, could you imagine all those old manufacturing plants becoming lofts connected to downtown via old freight ROW? I won't see it in my lifetime, I bet, but it's possible someday."
I think you're overestimating the popularity of lofts in the city of Detroit, even looking at 20-30 years from now. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 981
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:57 pm: | |
Fury13, if it clarifies things at all, I'm 37. I hope to still be alive 20-30 years from now. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1735
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:00 pm: | |
OK, fine, I just don't think there will be a booming market for lofts in a city of 400,000 in 2037. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1057
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:00 pm: | |
While certainly not every building fronting a transit rail line would be converted into lofts, development can easily be spurred around train stops to one extent or another. |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Livernoise – have you ever lived an area with mass transit as an alternative available? Or are you just guessing? I grew up in the Car Fearing Suburbs of Detroit. The idea or thought of mass-transit back then sounded stupid and useless to me. Then I actually moved somewhere that had it. Lived two years without a car and never once missed it.
You seem hell bent on a system never coming to Detroit because, heaven-for-bid, people might one day get the impression that it makes sense, and is useful, and saves them money, and increase property values, and blah, blah. What amazes me, now that I’m back in the area, is how utterly stupid it is that Detroit (City and Metro Area) DOESN’T have a system available. The attitude some people in this region have regarding mass transit, in my mind anyway, borders on insane. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3244
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:07 pm: | |
Detroit already has mass transit--DDOT and SMART. There are only some twenty light-rail systems in the entire US, and they are located in cities not approaching the status of a ghost town.
If any foolish DY posters want rapid transit, well have them come up with sensible means to come up with the billions of dollars to pay for it and not bankrupt the region because some moronic souls believe that trains will be saviors. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4179
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:11 pm: | |
Gotdet....you have to understand so that way you don't beat yourself in the head with a brick...
LY is a bitter old man that has a heart three times smaller than the grinch's after its been freeze dried and shrinkwrapped, and a brain that is even smaller. So before you decide to have civil discussion with him be forewarned that if LY don't say it then it don't make sense... |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 982
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:12 pm: | |
Did I say that? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3245
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:15 pm: | |
Typical (and expected) socialist, radiclib ad hominem BS--which all too often is all what they can come up with... |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 983
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:25 pm: | |
Livernois: Have you ever lived in a city with light rail, commuter rail, bike lanes, etc.? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9254
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
quote:OK, fine, I just don't think there will be a booming market for lofts in a city of 400,000 in 2037.
Will you still be complaining that parking is too difficult during Tigers games then as well? |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 404
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
Actually I find LY is an intelligent poster who makes many thoughtful comments. I happen to disagree with him on this issue, and I have found he is convinced of the truth of his arguments. So you aren't going to argue him away from what he believes, but at the same time you can't discount what he says - quite a few people believe the same thing. I think the discussion benefits from his input.
Having said that, of course, I think he's wrong on this issue. The region has anywhere from 4.4 to 5.6 million people, depending on how you define "the region", so let's keep to the lower number. There isn't any metro region in the US with half that population that doesn't have some form of regional rapid transit, be it light rail, subway or whatever.
LY is correct, we have "mass transit"; so does Flint. Any city with a public bus service has "mass transit". What we don't have is anything approaching "regional rapid transit". Every other region with at least half our population does have such a thing, to lesser or greater extent. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3247
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:52 pm: | |
It's futile even trying to reason with pipe dreamers who believe that having no money is no deterrent to building rapid transit, expected to run into the billions of dollars.
At some point, kids age and, sometimes, wise up. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2559
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:00 pm: | |
quote:It's futile even trying to reason with pipe dreamers who believe that having no money is no deterrent to building rapid transit, expected to run into the billions of dollars.
The problem with your argument is that you frame it in very vague terms, and then insist on the absolute truth of your position. That's why people get upset at you on this issue.
First, you grossly overestimate costs, using the term "billions". What are you basing this on? Detroit could have a 100-mile commuter rail network for a couple hundred million dollars.
Second, your claim that there is "no" money is just dead wrong. The federal government pays at least 50% of the capital costs--IF a plan is developed locally first. In Virginia, another 25% of the new Dulles Metro line is being paid by businesses, who lobbied to tax themselves. But when Michigan has done nothing but cut its own funding the past 20 years, you're not going to be able to do much, are you? |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 405
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:06 pm: | |
LY,
I think if the pipe dreamers can talk seriously about nearly $1B for Cobo Hall, or one point something billion to widen I-75 in the northburbs, then there is nothing fantastic about discussing similar sums for a kind of system every other major metro area has and we do not.
I also agree with Danindc - commuter rail is an obvious and low hanging fruit, and recent systems have been implemented for one point something million per mile. SEMCOG's consultant describing commuter rail to Ann Arbor as a $600 million project was idiotic; I hope we didn't pay too much for that service. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:15 pm: | |
Metro Areas of Detroit's size will have rail/sub transit at one point or another, it's about time that it is done in Detroit.
"It's futile even trying to reason with pipe dreamers who believe that having no money is no deterrent to building rapid transit, expected to run into the billions of dollars."
Also too, LY, think of all the government projects built during the Depression era by the Works Progress Administration. Many damns, parks, and public buildings were constructed to in some cases even just employ people and give them something to do. Sure it would cost money to build light rail mass transit, but wouldn't now actually be a good time for Detroit (and the metro area) to do it? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3248
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:19 pm: | |
Like I say... Try to convince the taxpayers to cough up 40% of over a billion dollars of capital costs and 100% of its operating costs. Then, and only then, could any such dreaming be even marginally feasible.
And I doubt, Scott, that the Dan in DC would be jumping through hoops with you over another Cobo Hall white elephant. You seem to realize that's just another example of even bigger government and another raid on the taxpayers. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1062
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:24 pm: | |
An extra .5% in sales tax (e.g. raising the sales tax to 6.5%) in the metro Detroit area could be enough for the local funding. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1736
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:27 pm: | |
"Will you still be complaining that parking is too difficult during Tigers games then as well?"
Naaah, I'll be in Chicago, at a White Sox game.  |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3249
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:31 pm: | |
A 0.5% percent increase in the sales tax rate is an actual 8% increase in sales taxes collected.
No way will that fly, especially if applied to the entire state. Detroit is already overtaxed. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2560
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:39 pm: | |
quote:A 0.5% percent increase in the sales tax rate is an actual 8% increase in sales taxes collected.
If you can't afford an extra half cent, you probably shouldn't be spending the dollar in the first place.
And did you poll anyone? For all you know, a vast majority of people in Detroit would gladly pay an extra half cent in sales tax to fund a transit system. But you don't know, so you guess.
A transit system wouldn't have to have 100% of its operating costs funded by taxpayers. Unlike roads, there are user fees that cover a significant percentage of operating expenses.
But Professorscott's point is well taken: if the State of Michigan can find $1 billion+ to widen I-75, saving commuters a whopping 1 minute along the entire length of the widening, then they can certainly find enough money to build a reasonable transit system. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:41 pm: | |
Seems to me that it is a relatively small amount for the benefit of the whole metro area. Rather phrases with the words "tax" and/or "increase" in them don't usually go over too well--I didn't think that it would fly either. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3250
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:51 pm: | |
The most obvious reason that light or commuter rail won't fly is because--outside of a tiny number of rail proponents--NOBODY is clamoring for it. Even the Detroit governmental spendthrifts know that their funding prospects are futile to pursue in the present local economy. |
6nois
Member
Username: 6nois
Post Number: 290
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:53 pm: | |
I would rather pay for a transit system than for I-75 to be widened in the northern suburbs. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2563
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
quote:The most obvious reason that light or commuter rail won't fly is because--outside of a tiny number of rail proponents--NOBODY is clamoring for it. Even the Detroit governmental spendthrifts know that their funding prospects are futile to pursue in the present local economy.
Well, we'll find out soon enough, won't we? I bet people who have to ride three buses and spend 2 hours getting to work would be pretty excited, huh? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 986
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:57 pm: | |
Urban Land Institute published a recent study showing light rail to be a prime driver of development in troubled inner cities. It creates jobs, attracts investment, spurs redevelopment, and gives us cleaner air and less traffic. In so many ways, it reduces costs and waste and stimulates growth.
I don't understand the problem. Right now, we're throwing another $100 billion dollars into a war. That money seems to mostly be scooped up by big business. Does any of that money create jobs? Maybe some. Does it make the world a better place? Doubtful. Is any of that good for the environment? No. Does any of that stuff trickle down to the average person. Some, not much.
So what's the problem with spending a few measly billion dollars, if that's what it takes, on a regional transportation system? We all get the benefit of it, don't we? Less traffic on your roads, more development and investment in the city. Seems win-win. And you don't have to invade a country to do it.
I dunno, man. Is this the same country that put a man on the moon? Why can't we get it together for a much worthier enterprise? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3251
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:11 pm: | |
More normative talk. No meat, no real need... |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 521
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:15 pm: | |
I am being persuaded by LY's use of larger fonts. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2566
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:19 pm: | |
The blinking does it for me. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3252
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:20 pm: | |
quote:I am being persuaded by LY's use of larger fonts.
Form over substance would probably work to good advantage in Detroit... |
Jtw
Member
Username: Jtw
Post Number: 129
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:46 pm: | |
quote:If you can't afford an extra half cent, you probably shouldn't be spending the dollar in the first place.
oh my god, that is perhaps the worst statement i have ever heard. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 988
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:46 pm: | |
Thanks for the yawn. Nice to know that my thoughts on the matter are appreciated. I only wish the rest of us could approach your higher level of discussion, sir. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5563
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 5:43 pm: | |
Wow, another circular article on rapid transit with LY on DetroitYes? You don't say. Seriously, why do any of you even bother, anymore? It's be different if you were debating with someone that knows his stuff, but you're debating with someone absolutely convinced (not because of the facts, but because he convinced himself) that rapid transit can't work now, or ever, in Metro Detroit. Come on, guys, he was pissed about the proposal, introduced today, to extend the tram in Metro Airport for heaven's sake!
(Message edited by lmichigan on June 01, 2007) |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 897
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 10:36 pm: | |
I never understand the opposition to mass transit here in Detroit. Actually I do. It's based on a local culture that says cities bad, cars good, me want to live in Uitica!
This dying 20th century mindset is being rejected by more and more people and global warming and rising gasoline prices will only accellerate this.
Initially, rider ship on a Detroit regional system would be low be cause the existing infrastructure would not support it. But in 30 years, the whole pattern of habitation would shift around the transit lines, with a substantial number of people using the system.
A lifestyle organized around great rapid transit is real pleasure. I used it for 15 years and LOVED not having to drive to work.
And as for money, fund mass transit by eliminating new road construction or better yet stopping wars to protect oil resources. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5576
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 11:15 pm: | |
It wouldn't even take that long, Ray. (i.e development popping up along the new transit lines). |
Bob_cosgrove
Member
Username: Bob_cosgrove
Post Number: 529
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 12:04 am: | |
I've posted these comments before, but since this is a new mass transit thread, let me state them again for anyone who is new to this forum.
Detroit had commuter trains until 1983, when SEMTA (the Southeeastern Michigan Transportaiton Athority now SMART) who had taken over the Grand Trunk Western RR Pontiac to Detroit commuter runs in the 1970's.
There were stops at Charing Cross Road, Birmingham, Royal Oak and Ferndale. SEMTA ran three morning and afternoon trains dedicated to handling the daily rush hour traffic.
The average daily ridership was 2,400 total, which probably took 2,000 cars off that parking lot known as I-75.
SEMTA made only $.25 cents in fares on each dollar of cost of their commuter rail operations.
But, before you feel that justified abandoning rail commuter service, you have to look at several other factors:
1.) No mass transit system in the world covers its costs be it bus or rail with the exception of Hong Kong, which does so due to its extremely high passenger density.
2.)SEMTA did not use it bus lines to feed the commuter trains, rather it ran them on parallel routes in direct competition to the trains. That makes some sense for local riders, but not feeding the trains at all makes no sense.
3.) SEMTA did not have passenger enchancing features such as snack cars, which could have been just vending machines for drinks, coffee and smack in one of the coaches.
And, unlike the Eastern commuter lines, they didn't have bar cars on the afternoon return trips. Some of these Eastern commuter trains like the Erie-Lackawanna from Hoboken into the Jersey suburbs just had a bartender with a make-shift bar made of a wide board between two adjacent seat backs serving bottle mixed drinks and pop.
The fact SEMTA management was decidedly anti-alcohol is part of the reason for no alchol, but why not even vending machine refreshments?
And, why not a Detroit Free Press on each passenger seat as an enticement?
The bus oriented SEMTA Board of Directors listened to the bus-oriented chief honcho and threw out the baby with the bath water rather than properly marketing their commuter trains.
Almost all major U.S. cities have commuter rail and many who haven't had it in the past have put in systems with Federal aid in the past 5 to 10 years.
Detroit had another commuter train from Ann Arbor to Michigan Central Depot near the old Tiger Stadium using Amtrak trains operating on the Conrail mainline.
This continued for a while after the SEMTA Pontiac to Detroit commuter service ended. As a matter of fact plans were to reinstate it using the Joe Louis Arena parking garage as the Detroit station.
That's the reason for the wide berm behind the U.S. Post Office Fort Street main branch and the extra height of the two northern bays on the west end of the Joe Louis garage for high-level rail passenger cars.
What Detroit needs is a transportation Czar and hopefully we have that with John Hertel, who Governor Granholm has appointed to that position.
But as talented as Mr. Hertel has been in getting things done in the past, he must have a New York City Robert Moses type with the power to get the tri-county or 5-county area to work together on Mass Transit.
And, some of the uneducated ideas such as "Speed-Link" bus trains put forth by SEMCOG, the Chamber of Commerce and the Citizens Research Council a few years ago just led to wasted time and effort. The only place "Speed-Link" exists in the world is in Curitaba Brazil.
Why should we adopt an experimental system? We did that with the People Mover, which in reality is a regular 4ft 8.5 inch railrad, just elevated with an unique power system.
Frankly, I think the People Mover will increasingly be of value, especially if it ties into rail commuter service from Ann Arbor terminating in the Joe Louis Parking garage.
We also should be looking at keeping the Dequindre Cut for commuter rail access to Ren Cen from the northern suburbs as it was in the days of SEMTA commuter trains.
Despite new construction in the area of the old SEMTA Ren-Cen station, there still is a rail corridor from the end of the Dequindre Cut into the east end of Ren-Cen - take a look sometime - it is there with that purpose.
Bob Cosgrove |
Cdent
Member
Username: Cdent
Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
I would have to agree with bob on most of his comments and would like to add a few more.
Buses don't work unless you have people to ride them! Trains you don't need until you have people to ride them ! ANY type of transportation you do not need unless you have LOTS of reasons for LOTS of people to get to a Central place. a resent trip to the Detroit historical museum was a real education for me, to see where you are sometimes you have to look at how you got their to begin with. JOBS are the Answer. JOBS..job's in the City! create ways to bring Mass amounts of people from all over the world and the transportation problem will solve its self. IF you ask me right now I don't see any reason for people to flock to the city. I wish with all my hart that does changes because I love Michigan and the hart of Michigan is not Lansing, Its still where the French landed and settled this great state. All the good things going on right now with the downtown area is a good start. and you have to start some ware. |