  Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 313 Registered: 11-2006 |
Surprised there was no comment here about it... http://www.usatoday.com/news/n ation/2007-05-17-detroit-subur bs_N.htm | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2230 Registered: 06-2004 |
probably because we're well aware of it | ||
Mbr Member Username: Mbr Post Number: 163 Registered: 03-2005 |
And also probably because it is USA Today with its generic version of infotainment that they pass off as journalism. On another note, I don't think anyone calls Grosse Pointe a "lock town", and if they do it's one of the least creative nicknames ever conceived. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3862 Registered: 10-2003 |
This line cracked me up... "Alter Road is one of the streets that separate Detroit and Grosse Pointe Park. A small canal with a tall fence runs along Alter south of Jefferson Avenue, creating a distinct boundary. On the Pointe side are older but tidy brick homes. Looking toward Detroit, Pointe residents have a view of backyards and garages. Some garages are in such disrepair that it looks as though a tornado has swept through the area. "Kristin Nicholson, 39, moved here from Chicago a few months ago with her husband, who grew up here. He warned her, she says, that "there's a definite and distinct border that you don't cross." When she spotted a Border Patrol vehicle recently, she briefly thought it was patrolling the Detroit-Grosse Pointe boundary rather than the nearby U.S.-Canadian border, she says." | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 271 Registered: 04-2006 |
There is a definite and distinct border that you don't cross. The Boogie Man will get you if you do. Same goes for the "people" on the opposite side. At least I hope they're considered people. Sounds a little exaggerated to me and might just be the nucleus of this whole problem in the first place. Just because the GPs are surrounded by a moat and fence doesn't make them any less vulnerable to their existence in the first place...that being jobs. Detroit has nothing more to offer the suburbs, so what do you expect? Either create your own existence or die like the city who's supplied your wellbeing for so many years. Laaaaaay-zeeeeee | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2809 Registered: 02-2005 |
Typical misinformation. Neither that canal nor Alter Rd. is the border. The border is between Alter and Wayburn/Barrington. The houses in the Windmill Pointe neighborhood are of the same or slightly more recent vintage compared to Detroit. So stupid. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 994 Registered: 02-2006 |
Considering most of Detroit considers Alter to be the border, I can't fault the reporter for writing that. She was probably writing what she was told by residents. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2810 Registered: 02-2005 |
It's not as if it's an iron curtain. All the cross-streets in the Windmill Pt. neighborhood empty onto Alter, and cross streets like Jefferson, Kercheval, Vernor, Charlevoix, and Mack all clearly flow between the cities. The USA Today--USA's worst paper--heard from me. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2005 |
Not just because of this article but in general, the USA Today is a rag: journalism at it's worst. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 239 Registered: 10-2006 |
quote: But you fail to mention that within the past 5 or so years Brooks/St. Paul has been walled up. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2811 Registered: 02-2005 |
Because it's pointless. If someone is in Detroit and wants to get to St. Paul and Wayburn, they can go around the block. I don't know why the barricade was built, but surely C of D has to sign off on it. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1452 Registered: 11-2003 |
Somebody must have forgotten to tell me about that border. I croseed it every day. And I'm SO sick of people talking about Alter and that canal as being the border between Detroit and GP. Alter Rd BOTH SIDES is COMPLETELY in the city of Detroit. The border is the property line between the homes on the east side of alter in Detroit and the west side of Barrington in GP. I've got friends who live on that side of Barrington. They've explained the whole thing (including at one time their houses were actually in GP but the back yards were technically Detroit). The cities came to an agreement many years ago and fixed that property line. Bottom line. Alter and that canal are Detroit on both sides. This article blows. I know GP can be stuffy and sleepy. But you know what? It is one of my favorite suburbs in all of America. It is beautful. Safe. Good schools. Tree lined sidewalks and beautiful homes. I do like cities, but if I had to live in any suburb in the US, GP would be at the top of my list. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1055 Registered: 12-2006 |
I live 1/2 a block away from Mack. What border? Someone from my house usually ends up across there at least 3 times a month at Allemons to get flowers or Lochmoor to get the car fixed. Not to mention that I go around Detroit as often as possible. Idiot reporters. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2814 Registered: 02-2005 |
Scs, That mirrors my experience growing up near Mack. I'll mention Bob Maxey, my dentist, the former Captain's restaurant, Yorkshire Food, and antique stores down by Three Mile (for my mother). The writer could have said that 'the divide between the cities is hardly noticeable along Mack Ave.,' but she didn't. She could have said a ton of things that weren't negative news but didn't. She spent a paragraph talking about how suburban downtowns need to become places to live and encourage this sort of development, and makes it seem like GP isn't doing this, when in fact the City of GP (for the Village) has a master plan that it is about to execute where apartments/condos are built as part of a mixed use development just north of Kercheval. There was also no mention of the quality and distinction of the GP housing stock, which most realtors would believe is going to pull that area through the burst bubble period. Already, from what I've seen when I've gone home, houses are starting to move (be sold) again. Instead, she gets someone to talk about doom and gloom. That stupid, pointless quote about 'border patrol' from someone who just moved here was a cheap shot. She was too tempted to insert that...obviously it makes for good reading. ...all this on top of the factual errors about Alter Rd. and the GPs being 'villages.' | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1056 Registered: 12-2006 |
Just gotta love national reporters. Can't get anything right. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1129 Registered: 08-2006 |
The article implies that until recently the bad economics was neatly contained within Detroit. Yep the uninformed stuff of free hotel newspaper journalism at its best. | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 397 Registered: 08-2006 |
Do you really expect most people to be aware that the rear property lines are the border.....no. Its easier just to say it is Alter Rd. Hell I can start bitching about where the border is in relation to the actual survey lines if you want to be THAT technical! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5545 Registered: 10-2003 |
That's what struck me. Forget about the the rather inaccurate description and details of GP and its interaction with Detroit, the fact that the author seems to believe that the region's economic downturn is just now reaching the suburbs shows how much grasp she has on the issue, IMO. She came up to the plate, and missed, if you ask me. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1057 Registered: 12-2006 |
Missed badly. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1353 Registered: 12-2005 |
McPaper dissed Detroit I'm sure everyone staying at Days Inn will read the article and contemplate. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1699 Registered: 11-2003 |
Agreed with Cambrian & Lmich. The very notion that the current economic downturn somehow began in the city and seeped out into the suburbs later is absurd. The downturn hit the whole metro region at the same time. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a higher percentage of people in the suburbs working for auto companies (both white collar & blue collar) than in the city, which would imply that the downturn might have hit the suburbs a teeny bit earlier. (Now, if you were talking about something seeping from the city into the suburbs over the long term i.e. 50 years, that might make a bit more sense.) | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 526 Registered: 03-2005 |
As a East Side Detroiter since 1960 and Indian Village resident since 1965, I've been very involved with all of the Grosse Pointes through personal friendships as well as organizations on which I've been either a member or an officer. My life insurance career, which began in 1973, has provided the opportunity to interface with residents of Detroit and all the suburbs, both the affluent ones and the not-so-affluent ones. Having been a widower since 1999, my best friend who I've known since 2000 when we became sweethearts, is a long time Grosse Pointer although not a native. I make this extensive mention my background, since I believe I've had an unique opportunity view of Detroit - I've coached in the Detroit PAL (Police Athletic League)football program and been associated with a number of Detroit institutions including the Detroit Historical Museum and the City of Detroit Historic Designation Advisory Board - and the all the suburbs espicially through my long career with New England Life. In my opinon this article in USA Today is the type of crap the national press repeatedly puts out about Detroit all the time. Not that there isn't on occassion accurate reporting about us, but it's rare. Of all the near suburbs, Grosse Pointe is the least isolated from Detroit and least prejudiced. Certainly less prejudiced than than those north of 8 Mile Road, which indeed is a boundary. I believe this is because many Grosse Pointers long have worked down downtown and interface with Blacks more. Yes, there is prejudice in the Pointes. For example, one of my close friends. a millionaire who lives in the Farms, has a view of Detroit and Detroiters is not unlike those cited in USA Today. But, one of his close personal friends is a lower income Black who lives in Detroit. Another Grosse Pointe friend, and a millionaire too, is involved in many Detroit organizations and unlike my other friend doesn't have a bone of prejudice in his body. I mention these people as being millionaires not that that is my usual social crowd, but that they represent the prototype image of Pointers. As we see in the USA Statistics for the Pointes, while above the U.S. average, in reality are they more average than an enclave soley of millionaires. It's interesting to have attended the joint Grosse Pointe North and South High School band concert last Thursday at North. There were more Blacks in attendance than you might have expected, not a sizable number but more than a few. I wonder if you can say the same for Birmingham, hopefully you can. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5546 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, due to their location and age, they can't help but to be the more Detroit-friendly. Their historical ties to the city are much greater, than much of the new money to the north, much of which have no historical ties to the city, at all, these days. I mean, we're talking streetcar suburbs vs. cities that have never had any direct transit ties to the city. More than probably any other suburb, the Pointes owe their existence to the city, and realize how important it is for it to not go completely under. Where money has migrated outward north and west, and a city like Birmingham doesn't much have a need for the city, anymore, for it to survive, the Pointes don't have much of a reason to be sustained, if Detroit can't be. Their importance was their location. | ||
Romanized Member Username: Romanized Post Number: 228 Registered: 02-2005 |
"Agreed with Cambrian & Lmich. The very notion that the current economic downturn somehow began in the city and seeped out into the suburbs later is absurd. The downturn hit the whole metro region at the same time." Interesting. So Detroit has stayed with the suburbs stride for stride all these years. And I thought the poverty and crime which spelled Detroit's current downturn began years ago. | ||
Ja1mz Member Username: Ja1mz Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2007 |
56 Pacman--McPaper-LMAO-That sums it up, the last time I read it was when it was presented as a daily doormat at a Best Western I was staying at...hmmm... "The Daily Doormat"...has a nice ring to it.. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7687 Registered: 09-2005 |
The article is, of course, inaccurate and misleading. However, don't discount the power of USA Today. It is fun to poke fun at, but if you travel and stay at nicer hotels, you know that it is distributed chain-wide, worldwide. It has, for some years, become the "easy" source of print news and a welcome sight for travelers (especially in Europe) who see it as familiar, somewhat accurate, and certainly easier to read than the boring, colorless European rags. Further, when you have the hotel-prepared breakfast at Hampton Inn, you have more time to read the paper and absorb junk like this - so heads up. Kwame's office should be right in the middle of these things - regularly releasing positive news about the COD and engaging/entertaining these folks when they hit the ground at DTW. A lot of upward-motion noise consistently coming out of the mayor's office certainly would have drawn this reporter there, if even to prove it wrong and/or to snag a comment. After all, what are Detroiters getting after paying for security forces, fat salaries, nice mansions, and cushy new Motor City rides? | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1453 Registered: 11-2003 |
A bit off topic.... Why is it that people with the means seem so drawn to Bloomfield and Birmingham these days than to GP? I've NEVER understood this. GP is closer to the city (maybe part of the reason), has easy access off of the Ford Freeway, is ON THE LAKE (biggest draw), has beautiful streets and homes, excellent schools, great city-parks, great police presence. I generally feel the weather is actually a little better too (cooler in summer not so cold in winter). Sure BH and Birm have large homes, nice neighborhoods, decent downtowns, and pretty easy access as well, but I just don't understand what it so special about them. Is it something about the GP name? The older housing stock? Are taxes higher? Why is GP no longer "the" place to live in Metro Detroit? I know it really hasn't been for awhile, though most people in this country know Grosse Pointe long before Bloomfield or Birmingham, and think it is still THE place. I'm really kinda curious. I know for me personally, I would live in GP in a second, far far far more appealing to me than BH or Birmingham. Maybe because GP is kinda unique? I know the lake is a big draw for me too. Those other places don't feel all that special to me I guess?? | ||
Granmontrules Member Username: Granmontrules Post Number: 84 Registered: 01-2007 |
Karl - I thought the article (while not overly favorable towards Detroit) was more favorable to the city mentioning new builds etc... than to GP. GP was TOTALLY slammed. I think the mayor is doing a lot to build up the city - NEXT Detroit effort and the NEZ tax breaks (we got our first step in the process paperwork Friday) of up to 34% THAN the governor for the entire state of MI. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2815 Registered: 02-2005 |
Jerome81, I lived there 20 years and don't know why anyone would choose OC over it. I think a lot of people believe that, despite the vast sections of middle and even working class neighborhoods in the GPs, GP is something else, something elitist. And since most Americans want to be seen as middle class and not elitist, they avoid someplace like GP just because of the inaccurate perception they might be subject to. The truth of the matter is that GP has something for everyone. Rental flats, starter homes where you get quality construction and good size for the price, larger family homes (many bargains near Mack Ave., more expensive toward the lake), and mansions. There are ranches and newer homes in GP Woods and Shores, and old-fashioned brick houses elsewhere. There are all your basic shopping needs, some upscale stuff, and a freeway a mile or two away to get you to other strips where there are malls/theatres if you need that. You get a park on the lake with all the amenities of a club. If you ever find it boring, downtown is 15-25 minutes away. The GPs will survive in spite of USA Today. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5549 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mackinaw, how can that be the case. How is someone going to be turned off by elitism, and then choose the Fields or Birmingham over the Pointes? The former are places that built on the premise of gaudy shows of wealth, while the latter are old, established, and reserved money. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1700 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: I was referring only to the current economic downtown in the last few years, related to all of the layoffs at GM & Ford. That downturn hit all areas of the region fairly equally and around the same time. The city of Detroit already had a much higher poverty & crime rate before this downturn. The article was misleading on this point, is all. I'd agree that there has been a gradual seepage of some crime and blight into some neighboring suburbs such as Warren over the last 30+ years. Grosse Pointe, I'm not sure I'd agree. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1701 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: Bloomfield & Birmingham are more centrally located in the Detroit metro area, and there's a greater critical mass of wealth and amenities in that area of the OC. I think that's most of it. (I'd prefer GP, myself.) | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 888 Registered: 06-2004 |
You know, its sporting to take shots at Bham, but Saturday nite as I walked down the street I noticed that the city, especially by the Palladium,had a substantial number of African Americans enjoying its charms. It seemed like 20% of the people walking down the street were black. I don't think that's the case in GP or in most of the other suburbs like Northville or Rochester. I don't know why Bham gets dumped on as not city friendly. Many of the people who live in Bham -- especially the areas near downtown have moved there from NY or Chicago or CA and picked the city because it was walkable and urbanized. Its about the only suburb with regular bus service and passenger rail. I would say that half our block moved here from out of state. I think people who dis bham ar dissing something they remember as a child from the 1980s. | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 706 Registered: 09-2004 |
During my first year of living in the US, back in 93, the first job I had was to work for a rich, Jewish, self-made business man as a "personal assistant", out of his home (mansion) office in BH. The guy was kind of creepy and needless to say the job didn't last very long but hey, this was my first working experience in the US. He told me that he used to own a house in Birmingham whose address bordered on BH and that there was a conflict going on with the residents in that particular neighborhood because they felt their properties SHOULD have a BH address, not a Bham address. Since they didn't win, some of the owners left (including my then employer) and relocated to BH, because they felt this was the real true address for rich, affluent, snobby assholes (ok, my opinion) rather than second-rate Birmingham. This is according to Mr. Sax of Bloomfield Hills. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2817 Registered: 02-2005 |
"The former are places that built on the premise of gaudy shows of wealth, while the latter are old, established, and reserved money." Lmich, you're assessment is correct. I think the latter is still seen as elitist though, and that is not popular in America. Plus the former is more fun...go spend your new money on cars and newly-constructed homes. Which brings me to another point, that the OC has more open spaces to build new, custom houses, which clearly tons of people want. The staid, old houses always in need of repairs and updates in GP make many people (people w/o taste) view it unfavorably. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1704 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ray, that is true. Aside from location and all that entails, Bham probably has more in common with GP than it does with the Bloomfields. The density of both Bham and GP is similar, both have walkable downtowns, Bham's being a bit more successful. Aside from a few bigfoot homes here and there, there's not much in the way of McMansions in Bham. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 892 Registered: 06-2004 |
Ghetto-butterfly, I don't live in BH or really know anyone who lives in BHs, but that guy sounds like a supreme jag off. I do know a very few old time residents in bham who talk like that. Biffy and Muffy from brother rice and marion wearing izod shorts. I think they suck too and they are a rapidly dying minority. Those people hate what birmingham is becoming, which is a city. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1337 Registered: 01-2005 |
OK late post here... This is a metro-detroit thing. Not a DETROIT thing. ALL OF US including Royal Oak, Ferndale, Berkely, Novi, Bloomfield Hills, and YES, our dearly beloved, better-than-jesus, all-holey, sanctified suburb of Grosse Point is deeply involved in the MICHIGAN ECONOMIC DISASTER. Geesh... I can't even bear to look at that stories frontspiece. Yuck. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 905 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lock town? Yeah, and I'll write an article that locals in Princeton, NJ call the city pen town because all the kids carry pen knives when they have to drive near Newark. This is why perception is everything. To the earlier posters point, Kwame and company need to be regularly supplying positive information to the national media so that they have something to write...otherwise you get this salad of old stereotypes combined with downright lies. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 325 Registered: 04-2007 |
Just an outsiders comment here. Most people I know of who live out side the area do believe there is a definite border at Alter and 8 mile roads. Maybe it is propagated through embellishment by suburbanites who move to other cities and want to recount their life next to the 'hood. I don't know. But this perception is coming from somewhere. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2516 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Are you suggesting that a Ministry of Propaganda would do more for Detroit than substantive improvements? I mean, it's not as if a lot of criticism leveled toward Detroit is unfounded. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 906 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dan, If you live here, you realize the extent to which the article is written in basically incorrect and stereotypical information by an author that apparently doesn't have a clue. The basic reality that Grosse Pointe and other suburbs have and will have a buyers market for the next 1 1/2 years is correct... and then they tried to build a story around that with little current or accurate information. Yes, I am suggesting that if metro-Detroit wants to get their message out,they need to do that while they continue to implement substantive improvements...not in lieu of them. To Michigan's comment, the "Alter line" is a far cry from what it was when I was a kid. The city of GPP is working with the Jefferson Chalmers business group regarding mutual improvements that are happening in the area. Does it have more work? Yes. Is it significantly better than it was a decade ago? Yes. Does the author of the article have a grasp of that? No. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2821 Registered: 02-2005 |
WELL SAID, Irish. With regards to a ministry of information for the city...maybe Kwame should make Model D Media a semi-public government branch or something. At any rate, they do a good job of consolidating the good news. I just hope it reaches a crowd beyond Detroityessers and Detroityes types. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1339 Registered: 01-2005 |
This is one of the biggest, boo hoo, BullShit stories I've ever seen. It's the entire region that's failing, including Grosse Pointe. Lock Town? I've lived here for 15 years, know TONS of grosse-pointers, and I've never heard of Lock Town. Total BS. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1340 Registered: 01-2005 |
You know...you can't have it both ways. Grosse Pointe can't be great DESPITE Detroit, as many GPers argue...and struggling BECAUSE of Detroit. They are mutually exclusive, you can't have both. One or the other. Get what I'm saying? People in suburbs think they are great and pull the weight of the region. That they are more important than the city itself, and "Hey, who gives a s about the city. It doesn't matter. Nuke it." Now we have people saying that detroit sucks so bad that the suburbs are sucking. Can't have it both ways people. Argh....sometimes I hate Michigan. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2826 Registered: 02-2005 |
I got an unsatisfactory, defensive response from the writer to my email to her. If anyone else wants to try to enlighten her: jkeen@usatoday.com | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4472 Registered: 10-2003 |
hahahaha, what did she say? Did you send her a link to this forum? lol | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2828 Registered: 02-2005 |
"I spent two full days there and spoke with dozens of people, many of whom I could not quote in the story because they declined to let me use their names." Does this suggest that some people said good things but she wasn't able to utilize them? Here's a lame defense for when she used that cracked-out comment from that one new resident: "When I wrote about the boundaries between Detroit and the Pointes, I was referring not to physical boundaries or a lack of cross streets, but to the psychological ones that clearly exist. The comment from Kristin Nicholson was relevant, I think, because her husband, a native of the area, had warned her about the distinct border between the two communities." I asked her why she called the GPs villages and she said that the USA calls anyplace with less than 50,000 people a village. How strange! I told her to keep tabs on Detroit and vicinity. Since they are taking such an interest in it...I expect to see good and bad takes on us reported in the rag. [She claims to have recieved many supportive comments since it was written...probably from people in Bloomfield, right? haha.] | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1058 Registered: 12-2006 |
She just got a very long email from me. I eagerly await her response. SCS100- On guard in Grosse Pointe for the moment. |
