  The_nerd Member Username: The_nerd Post Number: 434 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070519/NEW S01/705190372&imw=Y Darwin Award. The victim saved valuable taxpayer money. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 336 Registered: 08-2006 |
Sounds like a plan to me. I wonder if more incidents like this occurred where it would make these thugs think twice about robbing innocent people. I congratulate the man..... Jane | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 714 Registered: 11-2003 |
Nice. One shot brought down one and gathered up a number of others. Chalk one up for the good guys. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5891 Registered: 02-2004 |
Oh well! blame the adults! like KING KWAME said. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1297 Registered: 11-2004 |
I watch the history channel alot... and they did a show on just this subject. They interviewed several sociologists and they all noted that even though organized crime was very prevalent during the 20s-40s, Overall petty crime was almost non existant. Thefts were minimal, carjackings barely existed, purse snatchings were almost unheard of... and you really could let your kids ride their bikes 10 miles somewhere without some perv trying to rape one of them. The only difference from then till now is behavior of the public towards guns. More people carried personal protection then, and it wasnt uncommon that if u were being robbed, that another good citizen in the near you would have a gun as well. Wrongful death lawsuits were usually thrown out of court if the circumstances involved theft or any type of bodily harm. They also noted that because so many people were packin, most people used perfect manners when talking to others. You didnt disrespect another mans wife.. you said please and thank you. It was much tougher back then to be a random thug. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1064 Registered: 11-2003 |
Like the Outkast song... don't pull the gun out unless you plan to bang | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 268 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: I doubt that the types of people who steal cars at gunpoint read the newspaper or watch the news on TV. Unless they hear about this on the street, they won't know a thing about it and it won't change their behavior. | ||
Club_boss Member Username: Club_boss Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2006 |
.45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) for me, every day, all day. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 337 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ramcharge, mybe we could return to the days when there were public hangings, putting people in the gallows or stocks. Something like the Puritans did in the 1600s - 1700s. Show the public the effects of robbing and hurting innocent people. I know of a few murderers on T.V news that have destroyed their victims and their families .Scum like that should be public humiliated and executed. Sounds harsh, I agree, but its getting where 15 year olds are now committing heinous crimes and murders and are getting soft sentences. We just recently had a situation where a 17 year old father beat his ONE MONTH old daughter, broke her arm, fractured her skull, 2 broken ribs , all while the 15 year old mother watched. She said she loved him and that he was upset that day. Yah, tell that to the baby......... I believe in the eye for an eye quote. Kill someone, then expect to be killed yourself. Jane | ||
Redvetred Member Username: Redvetred Post Number: 19 Registered: 04-2007 |
It is unfortunate that more positive will not be made about this incident. Too bad, even the headline was misleading. Kudos to the 53 year old for standing up for himself and to the hospital security staff for detaining the thugs. Chalk one up for a lawful society. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2197 Registered: 06-2004 |
Will this death turn up in the homicide numbers, or no, because it was self-defense? | ||
Ddmoore54 Member Username: Ddmoore54 Post Number: 324 Registered: 07-2004 |
It's still considered homicide. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1246 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Will this death turn up in the homicide numbers, or no, because it was self-defense?" Homicide = the act of killing another human being, so yes, it gets included... It won't be included under the Murder stats column though, which is the unlawful killing of another human being w/ malice... | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2672 Registered: 11-2003 |
Given their penchant for looking for something to divert the public's attention away from their inability to get their regular work done, I wonder if CC will issue a proclamation honoring this citizen. Just think of the publicity it would bring. Yet another way to divert the public's attention for several days. Alexei, you're half right on the causes of today vs. going back at least 50-60 years ago: You had parents and adults back then who kept their kids/family members in line, instead of the sperm and egg donors that we have today trying to pass themselves off as "parents". If you can keeps the kids in line, that's over half the battle won right there... (Message edited by MCP-001 on May 19, 2007) | ||
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet Post Number: 480 Registered: 01-2007 |
Good shooting! In your face (again!) gun grabbers! | ||
Gdub Member Username: Gdub Post Number: 1098 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree with Redvetred, that article is a bit slanted. Notice how he isolates the last sentence, as if to heighten dramatic effect: "Then they gave him back his gun." | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3524 Registered: 10-2003 |
just make sure your kids can't grab those guns, gunhuggers! http://www.orovillemr.com/news /bayarea/ci_5887492 http://www.thedenverchannel.co m/news/4193902/detail.html | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 160 Registered: 09-2006 |
When will these kids wake up and realize that these other hard-working citizens like us are not gonna lay down and take this crap any longer? I'm all for "Thou shalt not kill", but if you're life is threatened, you're gonna do what you gonna do and that is DEFEND YOURSELF! although I do feel a little bit of remorse of young minor's life being lost-OBVIOUSLY he didn't consider his future. In spite of that, the little bastard had it comin'! | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1298 Registered: 11-2004 |
... make it easier to get guns and CCWs.. if people want to carry guns, its better to have them flat out legal so that they can be traced, so you cant really get out of the truth... "ya the dude pulled out a peace, and ya i shot him" and there would be evidence to back it up. If it was easier to get a legal gun, vs an illegal weapon (very easy if you got the loot) and more people had CWs... then there would be more honest citizens with guns than thugs... Its just like the cold war... if it did happen, news will get around quick. And i will never feel bad for someone carjacking people with a gun getting his own head blown off... It blows my mind how anyone could think that people dont have a right to defend themselves.. Unfortunatly, get prepared for a wrongful death suit on this one... | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think that the thugs are going to stop forgetting to lock and load. The last thing we need is for everybody to be packing a weapon-all those bullets flying around from thugs who don`t really know how to handle a gun are more than enough. Add to those the bullets from the good guys who know just as little, and we have a whole mess of poorly aimed bullets flying around just looking for an innocent bystander. A word to the good guys-point blank range and ALWAYS center of mass! | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 263 Registered: 04-2006 |
All this is going to "teach" is the thugs to actually make sure the gun is loaded next time so that the victim's head is the one to rightfully be blown off...all for the piece of metal with 4 wheels and an engine. Either that, or we'll just see more pimped out thugs mercilessly beating the helpless for their car while the thug family watches in belief and encouragement. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 412 Registered: 04-2006 |
ever read freakanomics? crime is down nation wide since the '70s, though he attributes it to legalized abortion. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2339 Registered: 07-2004 |
It is interesting to read the responses here. I say that because any talk of the old dpd s.t.r.e.s.s. unit is bombarded with talks of siege and police state and cops taking the law into their own hands when in fact it was simply a decoy unit. A decoy unit that was set up exactly for the situation this fellow who shot the poor kid was in..... the only difference is they were cops. Don't be misled.The sress unit did shoot and kill several people. People that were attempting to rob the decoy officers. These were not choir boys. | ||
Club_boss Member Username: Club_boss Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2006 |
If there is more one, assume their all armed. The one closest to you is the greatest threat, or any individual with a rifle. Short controlled bursts; squeeze don’t pull. Breathe normally + “point blank range ALWAYS center of mass!” = End of carjacker | ||
The_nerd Member Username: The_nerd Post Number: 435 Registered: 12-2003 |
So assuming that it costs around $50k per year to house prisoners, how much did Michigan taxpayers save? Assuming that an idiot like this young man would have "graduated" to more serious crimes, I suspect that he eventually would have "earned" a 30-35 year stint in Jackson. At the $50k per year rate, Michigan saved $1.5 - $1.75 million 2007 dollars (not taking into account a present value discount or the cost of trial or appeals). | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 671 Registered: 07-2005 |
Grand River and Prevost, that is my old stomping grounds. I bet poor Charles Parker never saw it coming. Hope he lived a prosperous 18 years. His three parters in crime will probably get off with a slap on the hand. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2677 Registered: 11-2003 |
Good advice, Club_boss. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 144 Registered: 05-2004 |
Sounds like it was down by where the old Robert Halls was located back in the day. More guns on the street won't solve the crime problem. Better parents, more education and more jobs being available would go a long way to making Detroit a better place to live. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2681 Registered: 11-2003 |
So would increasing the body count of all of the criminals. Making it a high-risk profession should give anyone time to make another career choice. | ||
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet Post Number: 482 Registered: 01-2007 |
I like the way Club_boss thinks: SMART! | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 697 Registered: 09-2004 |
Sure, boyzz, just go ahead with your gun glorification and lets go back to the good ole days when guns ruled society in the wild wild west. This is why the US of A is the only country in the world where civilization is still defined by its ridiculous gun laws and hence regarded/judged in disgust by the rest of the world. This is why the US of A does not advance socially in an otherwise civilized global society, because their citizens insist on their original "survivor" mentality from 200 years ago that is now obsolete. How about you teach your children some real values instead of teaching them how to use a gun and how important it is to "have the right to bear a weapon" Anybody ever seen "Bowling for Colombine"? Best description of Americans and their obsession with guns ever. BTW, I'm European, maybe that explains why I'm so disturbed with your gun obsession. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2684 Registered: 11-2003 |
"Bowling for Columbine" has been throughly discredited for years now because of the outright lies and fabrications contained within it. Got anything better? | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 698 Registered: 09-2004 |
I said "Best description of Americans and their obsession with guns ever", meaning that Bowling for Colombine in MY OPINION describes it best. Besides, WHO exactly discredited it for years and on what basis? Facts, please. Michael Moore cites sources, facts and stats to support his research and statements of the Columbine movie as well as others on his website. His sources can easily be checked and determined because he lists them all. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1300 Registered: 11-2004 |
... last time I checked... Detroit is run like the wild west.. Time to give the law abiding citizens some teeth. and club boss.. I did the floors at several clubs, and nearly all of their security were former military. U take any special training? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2687 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: Oh, really? Did you ever wonder why President Heston's tie keeps changing during the footage of his speech? {Here's a hint: No one changes ties that quickly} Did you ever wonder what bank in their right mind would give a customer a firearm and within the time alloted during the movie? {Here's a hint: You can do a lot of things with editing} Did you ever wonder what Dick Clark has to do with a shooting in Flint? {Here's a hint: At last check, Dick Clark doesn't force anyone to work for him...a moot point now since that particular business is now closed} Have you ever wondered that after all of the research that had been done to their backgrounds (including their writings), that no mention is made by Klebold & Harris of the nearby missle plant? Did you ever wonder why the movie tries to equate the KKK and the NRA, two organizations that are ideologically opposed to one another? {Here's your last hint: Blacks owning firearms scared the bejezus out of the KKK. After the Ossian Sweet trial, the KKK was directly responsible for pushing Lansing to restrict firearm ownership and make it much more difficult in Michigan for new owners to obtain a firearm legally}. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 726 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote: Prove to me that gun control reduces crime. Prove it. I want a link to statistics or a credible scientific study. Because I have a shitload of links ready for you that prove just the opposite, including a comprehensive study done by the National Academy of Sciences which shows that concealed carry laws do NOT cause any measurable increase in crime or shooting incidents in states that pass concealed carry laws. There has never been any proof to suggest that gun control reduces crime. Washington DC banned handguns 30 years ago and that city is one of the most violent cities in America. Meanwhile, the two safest states in America (Vermont and North Dakota) have practically no gun control and their violent crime rates are actually lower than Great Britain (per capita). | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2199 Registered: 06-2004 |
guns aren't the problem in the US - Canada has more guns and fewer gun crimes per capita I agree with Michael Moore - it all stems from the distrust and fear constantly preached to American society | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 507 Registered: 11-2006 |
Lilpup, What all stems from the distrust and fear constantly preached in American society? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11577 Registered: 10-2003 |
As I stated over a year ago, the classes to get your CPL are filled weeks ahead of time. Many gun ranges offer classes on both Saturday AND Sunday, the the number of armed citizens is growing immensely. As for a wrongful death suit, Granholm has been very supportive of gun laws coming across her desk, signing every single one I'm aware of into law. Most recently she signed into law that is essentially what Florida has had for the past few years. No longer are you obligated to flee, you can now stand your ground when you feel your life is in imminent danger. In addition, you are protected against both criminal AND civil law suits if it is determined to be an act of self defense. So for once, the law seems to be tilted towards the law abiding citizens, and the wording much more clear. quote: Preached? Wait a second, this is the same yahoo that created the Farenheit 911 movie right? The one that preached about distrust for our government, most notably the current administration? Fear? Yeah, some people in non-Michael Moore living situations, those living in urban environment, may have a little more fear in their lives. Fear of getting car jacked, mugged, raped, or killed. Is this the fear that is being preached and should be completely disregarded? There have been shootings in the downtown area, WSU area, my neighborhood, and most every part of Detroit. Is this simply a fear that was preached to us and one that we shouldn't be concerned about, because Michael Moore said so? | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 509 Registered: 11-2006 |
^^That's what I was thinking. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2200 Registered: 06-2004 |
why does it happen so much more here Sport? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11578 Registered: 10-2003 |
Please define "here." In Detroit, Michigan, urban cities, the United States, or some other here? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2201 Registered: 06-2004 |
the US - and a primary example Moore used was the gun crime in Detroit vs the lack of gun crime in Windsor, since Windsor is exposed to almost all the same mass media Detroit is - what's responsible for the major differences between Detroit and Windsor with regard to gun crime rate and societal behavior in general? (Message edited by lilpup on May 20, 2007) | ||
Mbr Member Username: Mbr Post Number: 152 Registered: 03-2005 |
I don't know this particular situation or how it went down, but does anyone have any experience or think that pepper spary or mace would have had the exact same outcome without anyone getting killed? | ||
Tayshaun22 Member Username: Tayshaun22 Post Number: 366 Registered: 02-2005 |
Does anyone else have a feeling the 53 year old will get got very soon? | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 185 Registered: 10-2006 |
Guns don`t kill people, people kill people-NRA | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 186 Registered: 10-2006 |
It wasn`t me, it was the bullet-The Gun | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 715 Registered: 11-2003 |
"I don't know this particular situation or how it went down, but does anyone have any experience or think that pepper spary or mace would have had the exact same outcome without anyone getting killed?" Go tell the 53-year-old man that he should carry around mace instead of a concealed weapon so he could avoid killing someone. I'm sure he say easy for you to say while your typing on a keyboard. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11579 Registered: 10-2003 |
What's that old saying? Don't bring mace to a gun fight...or something like that. | ||
Blueidone Member Username: Blueidone Post Number: 68 Registered: 03-2007 |
"what's responsible for the major differences between Detroit and Windsor with regard to gun crime rate and societal behavior in general?" At least in part, the difference is punishment. Canadian laws and resulting sentences are far more strict than those here, aren't they? That's what I have always heard. Here you can commit such a crime and if you get any jail time at all, you get to go home when the jails are overcrowded. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1247 Registered: 06-2006 |
The anti-gun people have been more or less silent on this thread because stories like this get them to realize how difficult their position is to support... their solution to this situation is that this guy should have just accepted his bad fortune, not fought back and allowed himself to be robbed and possibly killed...to them, whether he loved or died was a decision for the criminal to make and not him... and thats the difference really between the pro-gun crown and the anti-gun crown...when found in the situation that this 53-year-old man found himself in, the anti-gun people will sit there and HOPE nothing bad happens to them while the pro-gun crowd actually DOES something about it... | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 507 Registered: 06-2005 |
Lilpup, There are MANY Michigan cities that border Detroit where the gun crime rates are drastically lower (Pick one of many suburbs, which by the way all have the same gun laws as Detroit). Also I can just about guarantee that there are more guns per person in the "exburbs" surrounding Detroit than in th city itself, but violent gun crime is just about unheard of in those areas. It's the populous, not the guns.... | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 124 Registered: 01-2005 |
Made my day  | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2203 Registered: 06-2004 |
Johnnny5 - why does the US populous have such a high gun crime rate compared to the rest of the industrialized world? | ||
Ragtoplover59 Member Username: Ragtoplover59 Post Number: 97 Registered: 09-2006 |
Any kind of gun law that would have restricted the 53 yr old man from having a gun, Would have been a victory for the 18 yr old thug wanna-be ! That kid and his mini-gang were up to trouble all evening. No laws were good enough for those kids to keep them trouble free. Five kids and not one of them with enough smarts to say "hey, lets not do that", or at least ,just one who said "It will be a blast, lets do it anyway". Darwin Award- case closed ! | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11580 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: When you say "industrialized," are you referring to China, since most manufacturing these days takes place there? If so, the reason there isn't much of a gun crime rate there is the consequences people face for their crimes. An old coworker walked to a nearby townsquare to watch a government firing squad kill a line up of people for their crimes, he witnessed this when he was 12 years old or so. Such drastic punishment would lead to a major decline in serious crimes in this country, though is that the type of country you want to live in? My take as to why we have higher gun crimes is simply because we enjoy more freedoms than most any other country. Our freedoms go so far as to guarantee the right to bear arms in order to protect ourselves against threats, both domestic AND foreign. Imagine that, giving the populous the right to protect themselves against their own government. While other countries may enjoy the majority of the same freedoms as we do, very few governments allow their people to arm themselves to insure their freedoms are not infringed upon. Most governments around the world would simply crush it's people through it's military force. In this country, such an uprising would lead to a civil war unlike any country has ever seen. An unfortunate byproduct of this right is gun violence in society. Yet trying to ban guns is hardly the solution, simply enforce the laws in place, continue background checks on people who purchase guns, and make the penalties for breaking gun laws more strict. I fail to understand how people feel banning guns will get illegal guns weapons away from criminals. Do you feel they will come forward once they are banned and turn them in? Do you believe that gun trafficking won't lead to more weapons entering the country? Drugs are illegal, yet they are still plentiful in most every society, whether it be urban or rural, and I feel that is the closest comparison to what banning guns would be like. Guns would simply no longer be regulated by the government, probably making it even easier for criminals to get them. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2205 Registered: 06-2004 |
I've said nothing about banning guns. I said I agree with Michael Moore, who does not make the argument for gun control. FWIW - Canada has more guns per capita than the US does, and in Switzerland, where there's compulsory military service for men and a requirement that they keep their service weapons with them at home, there's virtually no gun crime. It's not guns or gun control - it's something in the American attitude that's different from even our close neighbors in Canada | ||
Sticks Member Username: Sticks Post Number: 311 Registered: 08-2005 |
Just imagine if you took all the guns off the streets. No civies have them, criminals or law-abiding citizens. Then what? You'd probably have less crime based on the assumption that it's a lot easier to pull a trigger 20 away from a victim rather than going up and stabbing/choking/beating/throw ing stones at the mofo. That being said, I almost hope it never comes to that here in the US. A place where the only guns you'll find belong to the ruling body? Yeah, that sounds peachy. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2228 Registered: 07-2004 |
Tayshaun22, what are trying to say? The 53 year old man acted in self-defense. Are you implying he was wrong to pull out a gun and shoot someone who had pulled a gun on him? I don't understand the logic of your statement. Could you elaborate? | ||
Ragtoplover59 Member Username: Ragtoplover59 Post Number: 100 Registered: 09-2006 |
I think Tayshaun22 is commenting on the fact that the 53 year old man may have some revenge seekers to watch out for? Until this blows over, I'm sure he will step up awareness of his surroundings. I'm keeping my money on the 53 yr man ! | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 511 Registered: 11-2006 |
Lilpup says: "It's not guns or gun control - it's something in the American attitude that's different from even our close neighbors in Canada". ------------------------------ - That's a pretty broad brush you paint all Americans with. I get what you are saying, it's just not true. The attitude you refer to is that of degenerate portions of Detroit specific society, not 'Americans' per se. | ||
Tayshaun22 Member Username: Tayshaun22 Post Number: 368 Registered: 02-2005 |
Royce, you're black and you don't know what the term "get got" means? He'll have it in for himself in when the heat gets off him. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2208 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote:The US has as extremely high gun crime rate compared to other developed nations - and Detroit is not responsible for all of it, sorry | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 517 Registered: 11-2006 |
cool. where I live there is virtually no gun crime. Not utopia, but close. | ||
Eric_w Member Username: Eric_w Post Number: 193 Registered: 02-2007 |
One dead thug & his pals in the pokey-now there's some progress for DEE-troit. As for the 53 year old victim that defended himself-good for him. I'd like to buy him a drink! | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 248 Registered: 12-2006 |
quote: What about sodomy and/or bestiality? That probably balances things out, huh? | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 93 Registered: 05-2006 |
To get rid of guns the time you would have to give somebody for using a gun during a crime would have to border on cruel and unusual punishment. It would have to be harsh enough to get people to think twice about using guns. Then our only problem will be people who will attack us with knifes, tire irons or any potential weapon other than a gun. At least however this will give the potential victim a fighting chance. | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 52 Registered: 03-2005 |
quote: "They interviewed several sociologists and they all noted that even though organized crime was very prevalent during the 20s-40s, Overall petty crime was almost non existant. Thefts were minimal, carjackings barely existed, purse snatchings were almost unheard of... and you really could let your kids ride their bikes 10 miles somewhere without some perv trying to rape one of them. The only difference from then till now is behavior of the public towards guns." Granted, I didn't see that show, but wouldn't it also make sense that organized criminals of the past were more selective in their targets? They went after rivals and enemies, not the average guy pumping gas on the corner just to get his car and wallet. Big difference. That said, I'm not shedding any tears for the punk. My husband was carjacked last year, and it pleases me to know that scrawny little mofo is doing 15-30 in Jackson, and he ain't so big now without that Uzi. btw, unless the victim turned out to be an off-duty cop, a wrongful death lawsuit would be laughed out of court, donchathink? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2696 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hey, Ghetto_butterfly. So, what's the word on Moore's "stats and facts"? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11581 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Warriorfan, That was true, right up until March 9,2007. The U.S. Court of appeals for DC issued a ruling in Parker v. District of Columbia. In the ruling it was determined that prohibiting gun ownership by the citizens of DC was unconstitutional, so the 1975 banning of handguns in DC has been over ruled. quote: http://www.nraila.org/Issues/F actSheets/Read.aspx?id=216&iss ue=010 | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 533 Registered: 11-2006 |
Detroitrulez, wtf? sad. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 537 Registered: 11-2006 |
I re-read my post that Detroitrulez commented on and I get the feeling that I came across as bragging. I'm not bragging about the low crime rate. It's just a fact. Smaller city, dry county, lower crime rate (overall). I'm sure as time passes and the people vote the County wet we will have an increase in crime, but for now it is quite nice and peaceful. It's just a fact. But I'll shut up about it. | ||
Dbc Member Username: Dbc Post Number: 47 Registered: 09-2006 |
I get so sick and tired of the half-truths spouted by the more-guns-are-the-answer-to-ev erything crowd. First, the example of using North Dakota and Vermont to showcase that guns reduce crime is ridiculous. Yeah, sparsely-populated, practically racially homogeneous states without large urban centers are really indicative of the country as a whole. Second, the gun lobby loves to cite DC as an example that gun control doesn't work. Uh, criminals have guns in DC not because of the gun control law, but because they buy guns elsewhere and bring them into DC. Guess what, there is no customs enforcement stopping you from entering the District from VA or MD with a gun. (I'll let you know if that's changed when I go to work tomorrow.) Moreover, the adoption of the gun law in DC also happened around high unemployment in the 70's and preceded the crack epidemic in the 80's. Show me that that didn't cause the spike in crime, which went up throughout the country in the 70's and 80's and has subsequently dipped everywhere, including DC. And, for those of you that say gun control doesn't work, then, by that logic, no effort to control crime is worthwhile. Hey, why not quit trying to stop child pornography, crystal meth use, or car theft for that matter. I mean, criminals will just find a way to carry out those crimes, anyway. In fact, the U.S. has the highest murder rate – but NOT the highest rates of assault, robbery, and burglary – of highly-developed Western democracies (Canada, Western Europe, Australia, NZ - is that specific enough for you?) [from UN study], and guns account for approximately 2/3 of those murders [from anti-gun control website]. Call me nutty, but murder is pretty much the worst violent crime and to think that guns aren't part of the problem is utterly fatuous. You know, because there's NO crime in gun-lovin' states. Oh wait, my bad, South Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, Alaska, Nevada, and Louisiana ranked 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, and 9 for violent crime RATE in 2005 according to the FBI.) Thus, the solution to reducing murder and other violence in this country is NOT more guns, nor is it banning guns. Unfortunately, questionable statistics, platitudes, and clichés are quoted shamelessly and uselessly by both sides of this debate. Instead, there has to be an effort to attack the poverty and employment that create crime, keep guns out of criminals' hands, and issue severe penalties for using guns in the commission of crimes. The problem is that whenever any sort of gun regulation is proposed as part of that effort, unreasonable and obsessed gun owners and the NRA almost always throw a hissy fit. You know, the NRA, the organization that OPPOSES a current bill – supported by the Bush administration - that would prohibit suspected terrorists from buying firearms. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3549 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, how about a huge tax on bullets, so that people will be less inclined to waste them? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1197 Registered: 11-2004 |
http://youtube.com/watch?v=juL QBeZXmPU | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 750 Registered: 11-2005 |
I just hope he ate his kill. The Nuge wouldn't want it any other way. | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 700 Registered: 09-2004 |
Mcp001 - as I said already, Michael Moore's stats in his movies are listed on his website, they list agencies that publish crime statistics such as the FBI, yes THE agency whose stats continuously put Detroit into the top 5 cities for violent crime, most of them gun-related. Of course, their stats could be falsified, who knows? But what is it with the general outrage over any Michael Moore movie anyway? All he is doing is holding up a mirrow to the American society - don't you like what you see in that mirrow? Seems to me that's your real problem. Dbc, great post, I couldn't agree more. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2701 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that already. Michael Moore is a swell guy who doesn't try to fool anyone because he lists everything on his website. Given that you hadn't addressed any of my pointed listed above, did the thought ever occur to you that maybe he might be lying when he deems it convenient to do so? | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 702 Registered: 09-2004 |
Mcp001 - I didn't particularly address any of your statements because they're just YOUR opinions. You're entitled to have your own opinions, it doesn't mean I have to agree or disagree with them. Nor do I have to prove that your OPINIONS are true or false. Why don't you instead try to prove that the statistics and their sources given by Michael Moore are wrong if you sooo believe that his films are such a big lie. And I happen to disagree with your opinions. For example: quote: In my opinion the KKK and NRA ideologically do equate each other because they both glorify violence. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2703 Registered: 11-2003 |
These aren't my opinions, those examples listed above were taken directly from the movie. Did you even see "Bowling for Columbine"?!? You know, Michael Moore's movie. The very same guy who backs up all of claims with stats? | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 362 Registered: 02-2006 |
"In my opinion the KKK and NRA ideologically do equate each other because they both glorify violence." Oh, my god. You want to talk about glorifying violence? The biggest glorifiers of violence on the planet are young black americans. | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 191 Registered: 10-2006 |
The biggest glorifiers of violence are in the film industry. Impressionable kids soak up these movies that are watched unattended and are left to believe that there are circumstances where it is not only acceptable but encouragable to kill people, long term de-sensitizing young people where respect for a human being already is at an all time low. | ||
Tkangas_23 Member Username: Tkangas_23 Post Number: 16 Registered: 09-2006 |
Everyone who's anti-michael moore and pro-NRA or pro-Bush always bitches that moore movies are "full of lies", but fails to provide details. In my opinion, his movies are one sided, as there is always two sides to every story, but he backs up his opinions, statements, and inferences with factual information. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2713 Registered: 11-2003 |
It falls on you then, Tkangas_23. Go up in this thread, and tell me what's wrong with the examples that I had listed above. | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 703 Registered: 09-2004 |
quote: It falls on you too Mcp since you have failed to prove that his claims and stats are supposedly false yet you insist that they are lies. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2714 Registered: 11-2003 |
Nice try, Ghetto_butterfly. It's obvious that you haven't even seen the movie yet, so why you're even chiming in here is beyond me. | ||
Romanized Member Username: Romanized Post Number: 227 Registered: 02-2005 |
This story just brightened my day. Hope to read a lot more of them. Viva la NRA. POW! | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 704 Registered: 09-2004 |
I have seen the movie. My favorite scene is the South Park like description of Americans and how they live in fear of everything and everybody that is not exactly like them, ever since the first Pilgrims set foot here and feel the need to battle their fear with guns. Oh, you're black, you don't look like me so you must be dangerous and therefore I must shoot you. | ||
Ja1mz Member Username: Ja1mz Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2007 |
We could all use some shooting practice..this works for me...http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf /files/TargetRightHanded.pdf | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2715 Registered: 11-2003 |
Good, then you can address the scenes that I posted above then (providing that you were watching more than just the cartoon segment). | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 94 Registered: 05-2006 |
I think this story just brings to light our situation with guns in this society. To arm everybody is not the answer either. If a guy wanted to carjack me and he was 80% sure I had a gun also, he would just pop me before I could have a chance to react. Also there is the case of bystanders getting shot since bullets don't know any names. In the society we live in especially the cities where the have's and the have nots are in close quarters with each other there is the resentment and anger and entitlement which creates a lot of the gun violence. I think the only way to get rid of the guns short of banning them which may or may not be unconstitutional, is too make the penalty so harsh for the committment of a crime with a gun people would actually think twice before carrying or using a gun. In the short run the prison population would swell until people realize that society is serious about this and the risk outweighs the gain and they would put the guns down. Maybe they would pick up another type of weapon but thats something we could deal with later. | ||
Tkangas_23 Member Username: Tkangas_23 Post Number: 17 Registered: 09-2006 |
Mcp001... In all honesty I don't remember the specific details of Bowling for Columbine I believe the scene you are referring to shows Moore purchasing a gun; which is trying to depict how easy it is to attain firearms in this country. However, I doubt he is trying to claim that he received the gun in the actual time it takes to watch the movie; of course there is editing. Is this the best evidence you can come up with to discredit the film? It sounds like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2717 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hardly, Tkangas_23. For a person who's a stickler for "facts" like Moore purportedly is, it would've been easy for him to include some additional information in that segment detailing exactly how long it really took him to obtain his rifle. Granted him not really living in Michigan at the time may have also constituted a crime as well, but I'll leave that for another discussion. And I don't know about you, but when someone edits a "speech" together that looks worse than the last Chef episode of "South Park", that seriously calls his credibility into question. |
