  Sg9018 Member Username: Sg9018 Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2006 |
Detroit needs a plan for Cobo hall, Last week in Chicago, there organizers sent an information packet to reporters last week that includes a reprint of an April 2 column in Automotive News, "National auto show should be in Chicago," written by William Jeanes.The Chicago Auto Show folks are making a public relations push for their show to replace the North American International Auto Show in Detroit as the big auto show in the United States. Here is a link to the article, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070506/BUS INESS01/705060638 | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 967 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think that the NAIA could show more than just one article saying it should remain in Detroit. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3126 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yawn! Yet another Let's build a brand new and/or expanded Cobo Hall bullshit thread. Hell, all that's needed is a little money--lots of little money in a financially strapped region with plenty of far more important concerns. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 968 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well Livernoisyard, basically the fact that Chicago's convention center has more space is their only argument for moving it there. Therefore, expanding Cobo is basically the best way to keep it here in Detroit, no? At least that is what I am gathering from this latest article. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3127 Registered: 10-2004 |
Been through this before... Even if the NAIAS leaves, there will still a big auto show in Detroit. The auto shows in LA have been colossal flops lately, to boot. It makes little to no economic sense for this region to waste scarce financial resources on Cobo Hall. Been there before, seen that... | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 970 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yeah no I agree with you about expanding Cobo. Why make it the size of Chicago's when the City of Detroit has about one third the population? But I do think that the article was definitely pointing towards the idea of expanding it again. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2517 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: If a city's population were the determining factor in the size of its convention center then, logically speaking, Cobo should be 34% larger than the Las Vegas Convention Center because the city of Detroit has a population that is 34% larger than the city of Las Vegas. The reality, however, is that the size of a community's population has nothing to do with the size of a convention center. It's all about the size of the conventions that the center intends to attract. quote: Only if you exclude things like jobs or tax revenue from your economic analysis. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1290 Registered: 01-2005 |
We need to get over this bickering BS between Detroit and burbs and do what's right FOR THE REGION. Expand and improve cobo now before we loose premier events like these. No ifs, ands or buts about it. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2518 Registered: 12-2004 |
Amen. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3128 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Yup! We must tighten up those premier events. Chicago can always win in a size and bidding war with Detroit. It's sheer folly to go down that road, especially when the heydays of such conventions are long gone. The economic benefits of a multiplier effect will still be there with any auto show. There's no sense on spending financial resources which have already been tapped dry on vital things than on the NAIAS or some such. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 820 Registered: 12-2005 |
From the article: Jeanes recommends that the Detroit, L.A. and New York shows return to regional, dealer-based shows. Cobo would still host the Detroit Auto Dealers auto show, the major impacts to Detroit would be: a) fewer new concept car and new vehicle "introductions" scheduled for the Detroit show b) fewer automotive press writers and photographers coming to town c) fewer negative articles getting written about the bad weather (or whatever) in Detroit | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4381 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'd rather see it in Vegas and I really hate the place, but there is no better place to hold a major convention. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4250 Registered: 08-2004 |
That article is pure crap. For food or wine to somehow taste better in Chicago is more pure crap. That's like saying the weather in Chicago is better in January... | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1412 Registered: 11-2003 |
Whatever. This is the same stuff the LA promoters have been trying to so for at least the last 5 years. The same will happen with Chicago. You know why? Because the world already knows Detroit is the biggest and the best, Detroit is the automotive capital of the world, and there are at least 3 of the world's largest car companies based in Metro Detroit who WANT to have their bread-and-butter show in Detroit. Trust me, even without a COBO expansion, this show aint goin away. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 323 Registered: 02-2006 |
The city and burbs should get over the BS, but Detroit had three opportunities to build a brand new convention center. 1> MGM 2> MOTORCITY 3> GREEKTOWN All three could have bid for a 1.5 million sq foot center with an attached casino/hotel that would have been the showplace for America. Just think, MGM wins the bid, invest $2billion into a new riverfront casino/hotel/convention center. The city could build it anywhere using its eminent-domain powers( it would still be city owed after X-amount of years) all three casinos would have fought relentlessly for the right to build "THE DOORWAY TO DETROIT"!!!313 | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2521 Registered: 12-2004 |
Nice dream. The reality, however, simply isn't anyway that any one hotel and/or casino could support a conference center that large. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 564 Registered: 07-2005 |
I say move the Auto Show to Las Vegas, they already have the convention space built and it is a much nicer city. What happens in Detroit eventually moves to Vegas! | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2522 Registered: 12-2004 |
Okay, cough up $540 million (each and every year) to replace the NAIAS' revenue and you can move it anywhere you want. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3130 Registered: 10-2004 |
Give it up, FN! Losing the NAIAS to a regional auto show will have minimal economic impact upon metro Detroit. And any losses will be far, far less than $540 million annually, and any such loss will be offset by not having to continually pay more taxes for an oversized Cobo Hall (each and every year--I seem to have stolen that line from somewhere). | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 566 Registered: 07-2005 |
^^^Yea, what LY said! | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 712 Registered: 04-2006 |
Something tells me the writer is from Chicago. Chicago can really suck a fat one right now. When you're claim to fame is being the place for New York rejects, you really shouldn't be trying to throw stones. You can't build the type of hype about an AUTO SHOW there that you could in Detroit. I think the international audience (especially the Europeans) would scoff at the thought removing the NAIAS from Detroit. Then again, we aren't exactly known for not doing some very bass-ackward things... | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1374 Registered: 12-2004 |
Let's send Chicago hatemail. | ||
Jeffery47 Member Username: Jeffery47 Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2006 |
I think all car shows aren't what they used to be. Concept cars used to be "secret", not leaked over the internet (didn't exist) or in magazines (a dying breed). The displays are extravagant, but don't really factor in my decision at least. The sense of anticipation, to see the sheet removed from a new model or far-out concept, is just gone. I guess all I want in a car show now is plenty of access to try cars out for comfort and features without salesmen bugging me. As far as expanding Cobo, what else would it attract besides the car show? What's going on there this week, last week, or next week? Sure, SAE, but it doesn't need the whole building once a year. A boat show? EIT exam? Garden expo? No major industry conventions, like health care, computers. Those folks want to go to a fun place with lots to do. Warm weather, resort-like atmosphere. Vegas, San Diego, Orlando, all have that. Maybe if the Perp Mover is converted to run at 85 mph and has a few loops, we can start talking about a resort atmosphere. Cobo is a cluster of add-ons and is overpriced for renters. Look at DC's new convention center - biggest building in the city and very nice. There's lots to do in DC for convention goers, although the weather is not always ideal. Detroit needs to focus on the residents, not people who are in town one week a year, while Cobo is otherwise empty. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1292 Registered: 01-2005 |
Have any of you guys ever been at the airport the weekend that kicks of press week? It's amazing...like Christmas or Thanksgiving rush. It's PACKED with national and international journalists arriving for events that start Sunday. You'd have to say goodbye to all that... And what other time is Detroit mentioned as one of three main venues for the three top WORLDWIDE autoshows? "The three major world-wide autoshows are held in Frankfurt, Detroit and Tokyo." You'd have to say goodbye to that too... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1095 Registered: 06-2006 |
"The city and burbs should get over the BS, but Detroit had three opportunities to build a brand new convention center." I agree, and that's why I like L. Brooks Patterson's proposal the best, which is to include either a 4th casino or at least a mini-casino in the Cobo expansion plans... Not only would this help pay for some of it, but it would make Cobo a MUCH more attractive option in the convention center universe... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2440 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And I'll add that it loses money, requiring massive public subsidies. Supporters of convention centers always seem to find figures justifying the massive expenditures based on a vague "economic impact". Of course, the centers almost always require huge operating subsidies, which means the City of Detroit will have a harder time balancing its budget than it does now. $1 billion could go a lot further for the residents of Detroit. | ||
Titancub Member Username: Titancub Post Number: 44 Registered: 08-2006 |
Aren't there already about 200 threads rehashing all this? | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 21 Registered: 04-2007 |
Chicago wants to get all the automotive glory with none on the industries problems. The show should stay in Detroit, where it's always been. AUTO show, MOTOR city, Makes sence! | ||
Illwill Member Username: Illwill Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detroit will NEVER give in to letting Chicago host the auto. It belongs here in Detroit no matter what ANY other city has to offer. This would also go against the blue ribbon team's great plan to revive Detroit. That was a sucker move by Chicago. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 568 Registered: 07-2005 |
quote: Motor City? You have got to be kidding me. Detroit was formerly known as that. Christ, even MoTown moved out to LA while the going was good. Detroit - City of Memories | ||
Illwill Member Username: Illwill Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2003 |
And one more thing...if Chicago had ever contributed anything worth a damn to American history, they could be spending time trying to promote whatever "that" could have been. However, Chicago chooses to concentrate on being the most politically corrupt city in the US and now suffers greatly from this, because they're the nations 3rd largest city without an identity. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1615 Registered: 10-2003 |
Chicago envy. Too many people around here see Chicago as a rival to Detroit. Got news for you: Detroit isn't even in the same class. If Chicago REALLY wants to have the top auto show, chances are that it will happen at some point. And there won't be much that Detroit can do about it. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 714 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Got news for you: Detroit isn't even in the same class." Exactly. Detroit is magnitudes above it... Take all of the stuff Chicago has contributed to society out of the history book and tell me how much it changes. Then do the same thing with Detroit and tell me which is the better city? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2441 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Now you're being willfully ignorant just to show your "pride" in Detroit. Are there any rational people on the forum anymore? | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1616 Registered: 10-2003 |
IhearttheD: Chicago has contributed a lot to America in terms of industry (meatpacking, steel, farm implements), as a transportation hub, as a center of literature and culture, as THE innovator in architecture, and in music (classic blues, jazz, '60s soul). You're showing some ignorance here. Fine, take pride in what Detroit was and is. But all the mindless rah-rah is pretty damn tired. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 715 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Chicago has contributed a lot to America in terms of industry (meatpacking, steel, farm implements), as a transportation hub, as a center of literature and culture, as THE innovator in architecture, and in music (classic blues, jazz, '60s soul). " Yeah... but it was never a New York... or Detroit for that matter in terms of cultural significance. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 570 Registered: 07-2005 |
quote: Why bring New York into the mix? Clearly you are a retard who has drank too much Detroitfuckistanyes Kool-Aid. Please learn the principles of debate—logic; evidence, case construction, proof, refuting arguments, rebuttal, the brief, etc. Chicago, the birthplace of the modern skyscraper is still a trendsetter in urban architecture and is a must for people interested in 20th century urban architecture. But the Windy City offers a lot more than architecture alone: it is a bustling city, it is home to many great museums and it has some of the best Blues clubs. It is also a great city to live in, especially the northern part of the city has a great lively atmosphere and even nice beaches. The last decade, more and more luxury apartments are being built downtown, luring the Chicagoans back to the downtown area (better known as the Loop) in an attempt to reverse the exodus from downtown Chicago. (Message edited by quozl on May 07, 2007) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1617 Registered: 10-2003 |
IhearttheD, Chicago comes damn close to NY in many of those areas and did some things arguably better (blues, architecture). Chicago did WAY better than Detroit in many things (transportation, for one; there are others). Detroit overall is probably more important musically than Chicago. Detroit's downfall was becoming dependent on one industry, while Chicago diversified its economy. I appreciate Detroit for what it is. My family's been here for generations. I was born here and Michigan offers a pretty good lifestyle. But the fact that it's my hometown doesn't make it better than a city like Chicago that obviously offers a more vibrant urban environment and quality of life than Detroit. You are articulating the good ol' Texas disease: "it's my home, so it's the best, right or wrong. We'll do it our way even if it's the wrong way." | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3138 Registered: 10-2004 |
It's not Cobo, but Detroit Three related. Ford announced another nearby plant permanently closing and idling another for at least a year in Cleveland. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 716 Registered: 04-2006 |
Q, why don't you join ShutthefuckupistanYes(PLEASE). com? Fury, actually I live in New York. I make no bones about it, Detroit and company has done a lot wrong. But in the grand scheme of things, Detroit has a well established name across the globe. If clean streets were the only thing to make a city World Class then New York would not fit the bill. If walkability were a criteria then L.A. wouldn't fit the bill. It's about what you bring to the table, and Detroit brings a LOT to the table regardless of current state. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9061 Registered: 10-2003 |
When discussing the numbers remember how much of it is a hotel tax which is essentially a tax on visitors. Let's keep things in perspective when tossing around numbers about how much it will cost 'us' | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 571 Registered: 07-2005 |
quote: What specifically does it bring to the table genius of the written word? I'll tell you: useless City Government, at a minimum 100 square miles of blight, BLACK FLIGHT to the 'burbs, crappy schools, the list goes on and on. It sure as hell does not bring Filet Mignon to the table, it brings something along the order of day old Beans & Franks... (Message edited by quozl on May 07, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 717 Registered: 04-2006 |
"What specifically does it bring to the table genius of the written word? " If it brings you with it then it brings someone who quite possibly has never read a history book. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3140 Registered: 10-2004 |
Doesn't (didn't) that hotel tax expire soon--if any taxes ever die? Patterson said two years ago that he won't support a new Cobo tax (on hotels or otherwise) with a duration of 20 or 30 years or so involving the three counties as the current tax. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 195 Registered: 04-2007 |
I have to chime in. I am only passing along what I was told, so please do not kill the messenger. I know a group that held a large annual convention in Detroit within the last four years. They will never have it there again. The RenCen staff advised all guests not to leave the facility for their "security". Then, a large portion of the group became ill from some sort of pathogen at the ren cen. I don't know what it was, I only heard it refered to as "Detroit Legionnaire's disease". They were extremely disappointed in the city and the event. I have never heard anything negative about the other cities they have held the convention in, sorry about that. Again, please do not kill me, I'm just passing along the info. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 572 Registered: 07-2005 |
quote: You are overdue for a diaper change little boy, go cry for mommy. You are clueless. (Message edited by quozl on May 07, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 718 Registered: 04-2006 |
"You are clueless." You say that yet you're always hanging on my every word. I must captivate you, old trout. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 573 Registered: 07-2005 |
quote: Captivate? Hardly, I just pity little 'tards with Downs Syndrome that have access to the internet. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 719 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Hardly, I just pity little 'tards with Downs Syndrome that have access to the internet." Ya got me there. Nothing dumber than me engaging in this bitch fest with an old curmudgeon who has nothing significant to say. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1293 Registered: 01-2005 |
All right all right...why are we arguing who's better? Both cities are great (yes we can both be great) and both have their own problems. We're completely different. All I'm saying is that we better get our act together and get this convention center to the standards necessary to keep the auto show, and attract/retain other shows/conventions. Why is anyone arguing this point? It's ridiculous to say we should not do this. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2442 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yes, that is the number one concern of the 800,000+ Detroit residents: the NAIAS. Who needs a balanced budget, or the trash picked up, anyway? That stuff is for wussies. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4254 Registered: 08-2004 |
LY the hotel and liquor taxes that pay for Cobo expansions are due to expire in 2015. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 324 Registered: 12-2006 |
I agree with Danindc here. To hell with NAIAS and their stupid convention. One week or so a year; big deal. How does spending $1B or so on Cobo really improve the quality of life for the tens of thousands of unemployed Detroiters, or provide a permanent fix to our single-minded economy? No matter how much we spend to fix up Cobo, assuming we take that idiotic step, most conventions will stay away because the operating costs at Cobo are much greater than at most big-city convention centers. I don't see anyone attacking that problem, though, not even the super-pro-expansion folks. This is just like when we were debating casinos several years back: nobody wants to look at the real problems, so we put all our time and energy into these pseudo-issues instead. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3143 Registered: 10-2004 |
Giving the Cobo fiefdom more money will further entrench Cobo's power base of corruption and graft at its public sector and its union work-rules sector. Ask any exhibitor at Cobo about all the delays and excessive fees charged for doing simple tasks that nearly anybody could do themselves. No, everything done there has to be done at high costs and with needless delays through Cobo's ingrained bureaucracy of crooked politicians and unionists. This has been mentioned many times before in the papers and forums, yet the Cobo proponents never seem to bring that up themselves or even react to those claims when confronted with them. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3145 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bad automaker/Tier news usually emanates on Fridays or over the weekend. This Monday is not going down as a good news day for this industry with Ford mentioned earlier that it was getting out of the casting business entirely in the US. Now, Tier 1 Delphi reports that its operating losses the past quarter widened substantially from that quarter a year ago: Delphi loss widens as GM revenue falls | ||
Dbest Member Username: Dbest Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2007 |
Wow!!! The only thing I know is at least it would go to a Mid-west city not a overrated east coast city | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 1160 Registered: 02-2007 |
It would be just not right to take the AUTO show out of AUTO Town. Chicago just wants to wipe us off the planet, that's all this issue is about. They know they can do it too, which is why they're trying. | ||
Detroits_own Member Username: Detroits_own Post Number: 53 Registered: 12-2004 |
^^I feel what you're saying, this is about more than just the the auto show, this is a slap in the face.... | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1623 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think it's pretty much about the auto show and the tourism dollars, and that's it. I don't think Chicago cares much about slapping Detroit's face. I don't think Chicago is even much aware of Detroit at all. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 336 Registered: 12-2006 |
Our whole problem as a region is we still seem to be living in the fantasy world that automotive will rebound in such a way as to replace the hundreds of thousands of jobs we've lost. What we need is to diversify our economy, not to spend $1 billion or so in a one-week-per-year tribute to our region's decaying industry. Yes, I know the convention center can be used more than that, but that doesn't seem to be the focus on why we want to spend a billion dollars. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2443 Registered: 10-2003 |
For $1 billion, you could build a transit system that would actually get the unemployed and under-employed residents of Detroit to JOBS. But I guess glossy media, "image", and PR are more important to some people--which is why Detroit is in the economic crapper it is. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 198 Registered: 04-2007 |
Chicagoans don't seem to be aware of any civic rivalry with Detroit. In much the same way New Yorkers have no idea about Chicago's Napoleonic complex about the big apple. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 1165 Registered: 02-2007 |
What I have notice though is that Chicago lately has been pulling the little city's strings. I know L.A. and New York doesn't do that though. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2444 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: It's true. Chicago doesn't have enough of its own problems to worry about, so they're going out of their way to slight Detroit. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1299 Registered: 01-2005 |
I agree that Chicago doesn't even think about Detroit, and that they are trying to get the NAIAS because it means money, jobs, etc. That's the City Governments job, and they SHOULD be trying to get the NAIAS and any other convention they can. The point your making is one that I agree with. The NAIAS means money and jobs. Period. We need to do what we can to keep NAIAS AND ATTRACT MORE CONVENTIONS like it. Why is this even an issue here? I really don't get the backwards thinking about money being spent more smartly, other areas needing more work, etc. We need to do ALL of this stuff to make the city work. This is simply one necessary cog on the wheel. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 1167 Registered: 02-2007 |
"I agree that Chicago doesn't even think about Detroit" Got that right. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3160 Registered: 10-2004 |
The NAIAS could have gone to Chicago anytime the past decade or so. But it didn't. So, why is it imperative now for metro Detroit to incur a $1 billion debt in overbuilding a convention hall and increase taxes in order to remain at the same economic level. The NAIAS is not going elsewhere, and if they did, so what? Its replacement auto show will generate practically the same revenue, but without a $1 billion price tag. Some can be so dense. As in real estate, cost (spending for the semi-illiterate) does not increase or equal value. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2531 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: First, please explain your insistence that it would be "far, far less than $540 million". Second, how often do you rent a hotel room? If you don't then you're not paying much in the way of taxes to support Cobo Hall. quote: Great, please tell Brooks to quit running his mouth about that proposal and get started on the statewide voter approval he'll need for a 4th casino. quote: You're an idiot for assuming that we have to chose between between a convention center and trash pick up. In reality, it goes like this: * If there's no convention center, there won't be very many people checking into hotel rooms. * If no one is renting hotel rooms then there's no revenue from the hotel tax (which pays for the convention center) nor will there be any sales tax (also from the hotel room rental and other purchases by convention attendees) or income and business taxes from the hotel and its employees. * Without the sales, income and business taxes, it becomes harder to pick up the trash or do any of the other things that local governments do. Your argument basically boils down to: our house is on fire therefore we should throw away all of our fire extinguishers. quote: Yeah, creating jobs doesn't do anything for unemployed Detroiters. quote: First, the NAIAS is a 3 week event (not including set-up and tear-down); not a 1 week event. Second, if you doubt that a booming convention industry can boost a city then please take a look at Las Vegas or Atlanta. Michigan: Was your Ren Cen horror story before or after SBXL? | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 199 Registered: 04-2007 |
Fne, it was before SBXL. I was not there so I am not speaking from first hand experience. I was surprised when I was told about this. It seems that the city has gone out of its way to make people feel comfortable downtown. So, I could not understand why the RenCen staff would tell people that. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3161 Registered: 10-2004 |
Frank, I have a simple solution for spenders like you. Run a series of bake sales or other benefits that the far left often do and come up with the money yourself--instead of having us fund whatever happens to be important to your kind? The era of conventions has passed long ago. The Internet sells more vehicles and passes far more information than all the auto shows in the world can do. The NAIAS probably knows that it won't convince enough sensible folk still remaining in metro Detroit to pay for an oversized white elephant. Besides, they aren't the ones complaining much anyway. It's simple as turning a light switch on or off for them to change venues. It's types like you and the proponents of larger government, such as the Wayne County exec and such. Patterson proposes a private sector approach, but the proponents of more socialism, such as Ficano and cronies, want their piece of the action. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 337 Registered: 12-2006 |
How many conventions are at Cobo Hall that are large enough to attract out-of-region travelers who will pay for hotel rooms and meals at restaurants? Put differently, and more meaningfully, how many days a year are such conventions happening? One big convention a year doesn't make us a big convention destination. We can't assume that simply expanding Cobo will attract great numbers of conventions. Detroit is not perceived as a great travel destination; it is hard work for us to attract conventions. We need to upgrade more than just Cobo to do so: better transit (especially to the airport), more hotel rooms downtown, more entertainment. We're headed in the right direction IMVHO, but we aren't all the way there yet, especially as regards transit. I am trying to rationalize the discussion. Some of our correspondents are in favor of the expenditure, $1 B for now and probably headed upward (based on lots of local history with such projects). I want to know what the return on such an investment is. Also: how many local jobs are dependent on the Auto Show, and what do those people do the other forty-nine weeks of the year? A billion dollars is a lot of money; these questions deserve consideration. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2532 Registered: 12-2004 |
Michigan: For what its worth, I've noticed that post-SBXL all of the hospitality staff are doing a much better job at, well, everything. In the weeks and months leading up to SBXL the host committee and DMVCB did a lot of training for hospitality staff. It took their performance up several notches. (Message edited by fnemecek on May 08, 2007) | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2533 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: If I do that, do I get to keep the $540 million every year? Plus, all of the sales, income and business taxes generated from it? quote: Currently, we only have 2 such conventions: the NAIAS and the SAE annual congress. The boat show isn't as big, but it's getting there. quote: I disagree. Prior to a change in market demand (moving away from smaller convention centers and to those with 1 million + square feet), Detroit was one of the largest convention destinations in the U.S. quote: Total local employment at the NAIAS is 1,732, according to the show's web site. As for the length of their employment, that varies widely. Car polishers and porters likely only get weeks worth of work out of the NAIAS (3 weeks for the show + the 1 week set-up). It takes 10 weeks to build all of the displays for the NAIAS. That keeps the carpenters and electricians busier for a longer period of time. Those who actually design all of the displays are engaged pretty much year round. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2445 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Do you really mean to say that the only reason anyone books a hotel in Detroit is because of Cobo? With hospitality like you show, however, calling people "idiots" because they're not similarly passionate about bankrupting the city, I wouldn't be too surprised. If Detroit's future depends entirely on a Cobo expansion, then Detroit is a lot more screwed than I thought. It's scare tactics like those used by Fnemecek that have built dozens of half-empty convention centers across the country, at great public expense. Detroit won't move forward until people start being rational and address the causes, instead of the effects. Some of you are trying to take aspirin to cure cancer, and then get pissy and defensive when someone tells you how ineffective that is. It's time to take an honest assessment of the situation instead of jumping onto every half-assed idea looking for a public handout. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1300 Registered: 01-2005 |
I don't think Frank is saying a new Cobo is the single answer to solving Detroit's (and SE Michigan's) economic woes. It's simply one of many important projects that we need to enhance/improve to keep what we currently have and expand in the future. Livernoisyard, there isn't one solution to everything...there are lots of them and everyone can win here. We can have a convention center and all of the other important things to. In this case, you have to spend money to make money. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3162 Registered: 10-2004 |
A good rule of thumb: If the private sector wants to do something, then it's possibly doable. The converse often works, too. Consider, for example, that Chicago recently set into motion the privatization of its water utility. Not exactly the same thing, but a step nevertheless in the right direction. Apparently, there are more or better clear thinkers in NE Illinois than in SE Michigan. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on May 08, 2007) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2446 Registered: 10-2003 |
I would argue that, as an inherently money-losing enterprise, a convention center is a luxury, and not a critical part of a thriving metropolis. This entire discussion is ridiculous. What's the number one problem in Detroit right now? Employment. Unless the $1 billion is going to create an awful lot of well-paying permanent jobs, it shouldn't even be discussed right now. Even scarier is the prospect that Cobo is only "part" of the solution. How much money do you think Detroit has to spend? Why leverage $1 billion into a money-losing civic building, when you could get a far better ROI by filling in some of those surface parking lots with private-sector development? This stuff isn't rocket science, folks. You're building a city--not sending a man to Mars. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4272 Registered: 08-2004 |
First of all only about 1/2 of the Billion Dollars is going to the expansion of Cobo. I do have a problem with that. However, yes they do need to expand Cobo, but lets do it more cost effective. If they can build a 300,000 sq.ft. Novi Expo Center for 18 million, then it really makes you wonder about the absurdity of such an expensive Cobo expansion. I think we should do an "economical" expansion. 1) Convert Cobo Arena to a circular 3 level meeting and ballroom complex with windows punched into the walls to give the ballrooms and meeting rooms a 270 degree panorama view of downtown and the river. 2) Convert the former riverfront ballroom/meeting areas to additional Cobo convention space. Heck, even cantelever over the Riverwalk for additional space, if necessary. 3) Put a mezzanine level at the northern and southern ends of the expanded hall that overlooks the vast central central convention space. Anyone who says that the floorspace has to be all on one level is full of shit (just like those folks that say casino gambling space all has to be on one level). Chicago's McCormick Place convention center is made up of 3 SEPARATE buildings connected by a skywalk. To me a mezzanine level would be preferable to leaving the building to go to another convention building. We currently have the NAIAS on 3 levels. The lower level (accessed via escalators), the main level, and those built up 2nd levels that the Auto dealers build themselves within Cobo Hall (and then tear down after the events). Adding 100,000 sq. ft. mezzanine levels on the 2 far ends of main halls of Cobo will allow for a lot of additional space, and also give automakers additional room to put prominent signage (between the main floor and the mezzanine fronts). An economical expansion shouldn't cost more than $300 million, with no reason to tear down Cobo Arena, and rebuild the roadway infrastructure/rampway from Atwater to Jefferson. So they expand the hotel/liquor tax from 2015 to 2025, big whoop! | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2534 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: Conventions are a huge part of the puzzle plan for any hotel. If you doubt me, call any of the hotels. quote: First, no city has ever gone bankrupt because a few hundred million dollars was dumped in its lap. Arguing that an expanded Cobo will lead to bankruptcy is like arguing that water will cause us to die of thirst. Second, if you don't like being called an idiot then don't make idiotic comments. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2007 |
"I would argue that, as an inherently money-losing enterprise, a convention center is a luxury, and not a critical part of a thriving metropolis" This is the same argument Brooks makes about light rail or other REAL rapid transit. These things do not exist to make money themselves. They exist to draw business/people to an area. In conventions, it is usually a matter of which facility best meets the needs. It is not a panacea, it is a part of the big picture. Like the Super Bowl, it brings outsiders to the city who know nothing but Detroit's nasty press image. Some of those people/businesses (like the investors in that troy/kmart project)might invest here. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2535 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: This is true. IIRC, the number for Cobo expansion was around $300 million and that includes building the walk ways that Ficano talked about. Those could be easily jettisoned. Add in selling the naming rights and you've got a Cobo expansion for a whole lot less. Unfortunately, some folks at the county level (for all 3 counties) have to be bribed into doing what's best for their constituents. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2447 Registered: 10-2003 |
Where is this few hundred million dollars going to come from, Fnemecek? Did you win the Powerball? And please don't say the money will come from new convention bookings. Baltimore doubled the size of its center and saw bookings drop. You can't guarantee anything in the way of ROI, and you know this! Any rational analysis, i.e. an academic study, and not one completed by the local convention and visitors bureau, would call this a risky investment at best. Hell, the Washington Convention Center (which, unlike Detroit, is actually located in a tourist town) loses its ass. You're telling me an expanded Cobo is worth the investment? And for what--to keep a couple more hotels open? There's more to a city than hotels and parties. Glad to see you're concerned about the citizens of Detroit. And I'm certainly glad you're not my financial advisor. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2448 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The difference is, transit actually spurs development around stations, so there is a positive ROI associated with it. Convention centers draw business to a city? You mean, other than the hot dog vendors outside the convention hall? Please cite your source for this! There is no such correlation that I'm aware. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2536 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: From the hotel/liquor tax. quote: First, the Washington Convention Center didn't have anything like the NAIAS and its $540 million annual revenue to build on. It's a crappy comparison. Second, while the convention center itself is a money loser for almost every city, it makes up for it through hotel rooms, car rentals and so on. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3163 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: I intended to comment on boat show, but there were bigger fish to fry... I just happened to make a rare appearance at Cobo Hall on the Tuesday of that week when Microsoft lured me there with giving me free some $800 of their software (Vista Ultimate, MS Office Professional 2007, and MS Groove) plus other freebies and free breakfast and lunch in exchange for attending its market launch that cold February day. First of all, I could have darted repeatedly into nonexistent traffic near Cobo and not gotten within a block of any vehicular traffic either when I arrived at 7:30 AM or left at 4 PM. It seemed as if a neutron bomb had killed off most people downtown. It seemed that dead, and if it weren't for that free software, Cobo would have been dead, too. I had passed by the boat show a number of times and peeked in occasionally and what I didn't notice was many people attending. Wearing a badge for the Microsoft event, I even was able to pass by the boat show ushers and get in without being required to pay. But, I just entered for a short time because I wasn't really interested in boating. In conclusion, if the boat show was so important, how come the free Microsoft market drive was so highly attended and the boat show wasn't that particular day? I guess it was the $800 of free software... | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2537 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: My guess would be that you were there between the hours of 7:30 a.m. and 4 p.m. on Tuesday. Not exactly prime time for the show. That's like saying that there weren't very many people in your local Wal-Mart at 3 a.m., therefore Wal-Mart is going out of business any minute now. | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 904 Registered: 01-2006 |
quote: Livernoisyard, I think you will find that more people attend the boat show after 5:00pm (think day job). It is the same with the Auto Show. If you were down there on the weekend it would have been quite busy. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2449 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: You're right. The Washington Convention Center is used for more than three weeks a year. Where does your $540 million annual revenue figure come from? quote: Source? A responsible Cobo plan would quantify this. Again--city money is going to be used to pay for a Cobo expansion. Are these all city taxes that come right back to the city? Must be great to be able to think about having a better auto show when 15% of your city is unemployed. I envy you. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2450 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Convention Follies, Part 4: An Interview with Heywood Sanders http://www.gse.buffalo.edu/fas /bromley/ccs/part4.htm | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2538 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: Cobo already gets used for more than 3 weeks every year, too. http://www.cobocenter.com/even ts.php quote: That was my mistake. I should have said $540 in annual economic impact for the NAIAS. http://www.naias.com/SubPage.a spx?id=914 quote: It isn't "city money" in the sense that comes from the City's budget. It comes from a hotel/liquor tax that is paid in 3 counties, including from outside of the city. quote: Yes, because the last thing that unemployed people need is for something to come along that creates a bunch of jobs. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2451 Registered: 10-2003 |
A passage from the same author: http://www.gse.buffalo.edu/fas /bromley/ccs/part1.htm quote: | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2539 Registered: 12-2004 |
Danindc: Let me get this straight. Are you arguing that because a convention center didn't work in a community that a) didn't have base to build on and b) didn't have a way to finance the project without compromising city services, it simply won't work in a city that does have a strong base and does have a way to pay for it? Are you really going to make that argument? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3164 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hint: Those without jobs could go to areas where there are jobs instead of living off the taxpayers--be it welfare or feeding off the public trough (grants for starving artists, etc.). I sense that the latter approach to work is attempted quite often by Detroit's arts and croissants crowd. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2452 Registered: 10-2003 |
That's not what I'm arguing at all. But hey, knock yourself out. Detroit knows better than the rest of the world when it comes to fostering a thriving urban economy. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2540 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: As currently proposed, the benefits from an expanded Cobo Hall are spread across more than 100 private investors. Proposals from Ficano and others call for a the financing to paid primarily by those who use the facility. News flash: this is exactly what Karl Marx was thinking when he proclaimed, "Power to the proletariat!" BTW - you never answered my question. If I raise the money for a new Cobo, do I get to keep the $540 million each year all to myself? And all of the sales, income and business tax revenue? quote: In that case, why do you keep bringing up Washington, DC and Buffalo, NY? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 340 Registered: 12-2006 |
I want to build a store, never mind what it sells. The store will only be open perhaps 20 or 30 days per year. It will employ a thousand or maybe two thousand employees, but it will only pay them when the store is open or setting up to open, not all year. Most of the people who shop at my store live in the area, but a few may come from out of town, so I expect the hotels and airlines to pay my operating expenses. Other cities have conceived of stores such as what I propose, so I claim it is a point of civic pride that my store should be the best of all. No other city can have a bigger or better store than mine. Nobody actually needs for my store to exist, but Detroit is a second-class city if the public won't pay to expand my store. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1301 Registered: 01-2005 |
Wow that's the lamest thing I've ever read on this forum...especially coming from a professor. Ok. lets just give up and tear down the convention center. Bye-bye. Have a convention in detroit? Sorry. F u. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 809 Registered: 11-2004 |
Who needs a balanced budget, or the trash picked up, anyway? That stuff is for wussies Actually, there'd be more money for trash and police. Right now Detroit alone must cover the operating loss of around $10 million a year out of the general fund. Part of Ficano plan transfers ownership to a regional authority, Detroit would no longer have to directly subsidize Cobo | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 306 Registered: 10-2005 |
Maybe allowing Chicago to now have the North American International Auto Show would be really good for Detroit: kind of like ending a really bad addiction. I don't mean to sound flippant but is the automobile industry really a huge part of the future for Detroit? Money marked for Cobo expansion would probably be better used for some other project that would have greater effect for the city. I will admit though that it is one ugly structure sitting on some nice land. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2544 Registered: 12-2004 |
Professorscott: If I offer you an opportunity to make $4 for every $1 that you invest, does it matter if my offer is only valid for 20 or 30 days out of the year? | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2545 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jjw: I can think of 540 million reasons why it's a really bad idea to let Chicago have the NAIAS. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1626 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Maybe allowing Chicago to now have the North American International Auto Show would be really good for Detroit: kind of like ending a really bad addiction. I don't mean to sound flippant but is the automobile industry really a huge part of the future for Detroit?" Good, well-articulated point. Detroit's future is probably not in the declining domestic auto industry. State and regional leaders should be focusing on other industries and on diversifying the economy here so it's stronger. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2546 Registered: 12-2004 |
Fury13: If I give you $540 million, do you care whether it came from the auto industry or somewhere else? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2454 Registered: 10-2003 |
You know what? Choke on your imaginary $540 million. Seriously. Detroit has to operate under the same economic rules as every other city. Yet, you blindly insist that Detroit is somehow an exception. In a sense, you're right. Detroit is an exception, in that it absolutely refuses to acknowledge reality. Good luck building an economy on restaurants, bars, and hotels that see incredibly sporadic business. Kinda like the auto industry, but with far lower wages. Have fun with your parties. Some of us are actually interested in city building. I can't help you if you're going to summarily dismiss contradictory evidence without attempting to refute it. That, my friend, is the definiton of idiocy. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2547 Registered: 12-2004 |
First, I did refute your contradictory evidence. Neither Washington, DC nor Buffalo, NY had a significant convention that they needed to retain when it came to building their convention center. Their economic justification was built exclusively on luring new conventions to town. Detroit is the exact opposite. We have an existing convention to protect and retain. If we get any new convention business as a result of an expanded Cobo then we can pop the champagne and celebrate. If we don't then it still makes economic sense. As for your city building, good luck doing it without jobs for the people who live in your city. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2455 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yup--screw the people of Detroit who WOULD have jobs if they could actually GET to the jobs in the suburbs. This damn auto show is far more important! There would be more jobs in Detroit if the city spent more time and money making it an attractive place to live, and less time worrying about crap like Super Bowls and convention centers. Young college graduates, i.e. people who create jobs and attract employers, don't give a hoot about that superficial crap. But I digress. Best of luck, and send me some of what you're on. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 735 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ya know... I just don't see the Big 3 letting the Big Show go to Chicago. They didn't choose the location over where the best steak is made. It might very well be bad PR for the city to let it go to them, but it's even worse PR for the industry to let it go there. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 582 Registered: 07-2005 |
quote: You don't want any of that juice Danindc, it can be deadly...  | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 46 Registered: 02-2007 |
About Chicago not thinking about Detroit -- you couldn't be more wrong. I was on the phone last night with my cousin, who still lives there and does event planning. She said the convention people ARE worried about competition from Detroit, specifically because of the casinos and the improvement of D's image after the Super Bowl | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4278 Registered: 08-2004 |
Frank, why do you even waste your time arguing with a brick wall... Skulker gave up on that foolishness. In LYs recent post about Detroit, he is using a page from the late commedian Sam Kinnison's schtick about Ethiopia's starving population when he screams.... "move to the food you idiots... move to the food". And as for Danindc... I've just learned to tune him out... he has something negative about everything. The glass is ALWAYS half empty. No matter how much you tell him that this is a hotel/rental/beverage tax, he still makes it an issue that SE Michigan and Detroiters can't afford this. It doesn't seem to be able to sink into his brain that it's a tourism tax. Don't waste your time Frank... (Message edited by Gistok on May 09, 2007) | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1302 Registered: 01-2005 |
Gistok, well put. I've discovered the same thing about danindc and try my best to ignore him too. Frank, nice try but you can't teach idiots. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2456 Registered: 10-2003 |
You know what? You guys are right. Detroit does everything correctly. It's every other city that has it screwed up. If someone doesn't agree with you, just call 'em an idiot. It doesn't matter if you yourself have anything intelligent to add or not. All you have to do is say "Detroit is not Buffalo", and that counts as refuting an argument. Brilliant! How did the American auto industry ever go in the shitter when so much genius abounds in Detroit? With such welcoming and open-minded people, I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that people aren't flocking to invest in Detroit. When you guys get your urban thinking to the 1980s, let me know. Someone is due to propose a shopping mall in downtown Detroit any day now. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 50 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Chicago, the birthplace of the modern skyscraper is still a trendsetter in urban architecture and is a must for people interested in 20th century urban architecture." And yet they build things like that hideous millenium park, and that tumor growing out of soldier field | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1303 Registered: 01-2005 |
Rb336...millenium park and soldier field are examples of fantastic urban/civic architecture. In my opinion. |
