Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » Business tax Plan « Previous Next »
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Urbanoutdoors
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Username: Urbanoutdoors

Post Number: 282
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0502/REG/70502016/1009/breakin g
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 917
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"In a news release, House Speaker Andy Dillon, D-Redford Township, said the House Democrats’ plan 'is the first piece of the puzzle for resolving Michigan’s budget crisis, and it will help jumpstart our struggling economy. Replacing the single business tax with a more equitable solution that rewards investment and protects Michigan-based companies was vital to getting our state back on track.'"

Sounds like finally a step in the right direction...
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2622
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Which plan?

The House & Senate bills are almost totally different.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 393
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Put yourself in the shoes of a business owner (large or small). Michigan/Granholm is proposing to tax your profits by 7 percent....Ohio has no such tax....where do you want to base your business? THe state is bleeding businesses, and Granholm/the Dems want to add further disincentives for them to stay? Who votes for these people?
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 319
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigan's overall business tax is in the middle of the pack among the states. It is ridiculous to compare one specific tax between two states, since the types of taxes imposed by each are not the same. This is not the place for partisan blathering.

The two plans are apart on several details, but the essence is one item only: the Senate plan reduces overall taxes by about $500 million; the House plan keeps taxes about where they were. So the argument is going to be: do we reduce taxes and further cut state services, or do we keep taxes the same but allocated differently, or do we find some middle ground on which nobody is happy?

The smart money says "middle ground", and quickly.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 396
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK...middle of the pack you say...hmmm, with a state economy that is at the bottom of the pack, which direction would it be wiser to move in, do you think? Status quo? Or enhance the attractiveness of the state to attract and retain businesses by moving out of the "middle of the pack" to the side that favors business?

Now what does "the smart money" say?
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 531
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When your state's economy is rocketing down the shitter, "middle of the pack" for state business tax burden will do you absolutely no good.

When a business is looking for a place to expand, launch or locate, a "middle of the pack" business tax burden combined with the nation's worst economy screams "Keep Your Effin Jobs and Your Effin Capital The Eff Away From Here!"
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 398
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

X-actly...now why is it that there is no outcry from the public to reign in the behavior of our elected politicians (Granholm and her crew)?

My earlier question about who elects these people? was only partly rhetorical and sarcastic.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 321
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The fact that businesses are not choosing to locate in Michigan, particularly the SE region, has little to do with taxation. If that was the primary motivator, then very low tax states (such as New Hampshire) should be overrun with new businesses.

Business choose where to locate for a variety of reasons, and taxes are only one; perhaps an important one, but still only one. We have more important problems to fix. Offshore-based manufacturing will never choose to locate in a closed-shop state, so we either have to fix that problem or simply realize we have to look for new-economy companies outside the manufacturing space.

The new-economy companies are looking for regions that have attraction to young workers since that is who they hire at first. Michigan's biggest problem IMVHO is we are doing nothing, maybe less than nothing, to be attractive to young adults. Our educational system is so-so (and getting worse, for financial and other reasons); our cities lack vibrancy; our municipalities are unfriendly to small businesses since they still live with the fantasy that Uncle Ford or Uncle Chrysler will once again save their asses; we have the worst public transportation of any big city in the developed world, and so on.

Gov. Engler cut taxes and yet where were all the new businesses that was supposed to bring? It wasn't the solution we needed and isn't now. Businesses of the 21st century will locate where they can attract the kind of talent they need; Michigan isn't it, and isn't doing anything to try to become it. Carping on taxation is ridiculous, but the current partisan bickering only further convinces capital to stay away.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5458
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's try not to compare Michigan to Ohio if we're talking economics. lol

(Message edited by lmichigan on May 03, 2007)
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 402
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A good point...lower taxes and break the unions, that is the way to prosperity for Michigan. I am not being sarcastic BTW, it sounds harsh, but it is true. So, to effect these changes, we have to first get rid of the anti business politicians and replace them with fiscal conservatives.

Over simplifying?? Maybe, but it would be a good start.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1272
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 12:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... maybe we will get a clue if we took a drive to toledo.. almost immediatly once you cross the border... your car doesnt rattle and shake from the numerous potholes. THe change is immediate.
Ok thats another reason... but only one of them.

What I want to know is... where the FUK is all the money going that we already give to this state? Jesus christ... 40 billion$ is alot of loot... and they cant even have decent roads? Considering its the only reliable transportation available here... blows my mind.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 407
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you want a job messed up, leave it to the government. We should privatize just about everything and use local (maybe state) government only as a way of pooling money to contract out large jobs (like roads).
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 409
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan; the comparison may have been laughable in the past, but have you seen where Michigan sits right now? The Dow is over 13000!!! and here we sit wallowing in a socialist liberal quagmire in the state of Michigan.

On a brighter note, we will bounce back, economies are cyclical, and historically Michigan lags behind the rest of the country. The bounce back and future economic security would be greatly aided by a durable and lasting change to a more capitalistic, less socialistic state government and electorate. We have an opportunity to learn an important lesson here, let's not blow it.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1274
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

honestly... Michigan was and never will be prepared to handle the comming shift in the global economy. (I am very against tariff free trade, as there is a reason tariffs were invented in the first place when governments were invented (thinking egyptians greeks and romans, as a weapon to prevent trade wars.)) The economy that the rest of the nation is thriving on is due to manufacturers (michigan) spending everything they have to maintain survival.

And just because the dow is over 13000 doesnt mean shit... I do wonder how much of that increase is due to inflation. At 3-5% GDP growth, the dow is actually under what it should be, even if inflation is taken out of the equation.

Inflation is much more than stated by our government. This is due to our government spending 500billion + per year for the last 5 years more than they take in. That represents roughly 1/20th of our national economy (aproximatly 10 trillion$ currently). year over year. This money has to come from somewhere, and usually from governments (like china, india, russia, Japan and the bank of england), buying up securities to stabilize their own currency. However, about 200billion$ of it simply must be made up by printing more money... adding a hidden tax by making the money you make worth alot less.
Thats a very scary thought when the chickens come home because it is unsustainable and our country is on a much less solid footing than it was 10 or 15 years ago.

That is only our government debt, that doesnt include the 800$billion (and growing) trade deficts that we are currently running. Nearly 1/10th of our economy year over year, that must be floated and financed by private equity firms and government banks. This house of debt that we are building our economy on will colaspe at some point unless the trend is reversed...
Even if the current way of doing business was reversed, in both scenarios (we stop borrowing gradually and pay our debts) or (the banks refuse to lend out any more money and call the loans, and we are left with the hot potato all at once, similar to 1929...

You will see an even worse problem than inflation... Rapid deflation. All of a sudden, money will become so scarce that prices will drop rapidly.. and the goods and services that businesses sell will not make them any money. At the same time there will be no money to buy the goods and services in the first place.

if you have money saved... your in luck... but nobody does, we are all in debt up to our ass. Even if you had money saved, be prepared to work as an engineer for minimum wage.

Dont think it can happen? Our nations economy isnt as solid as we would like to think it is. If any of these scenarios happen (which one way or another they will if we continue on the current track), then our whole country is in deep shit, because we no longer OWN anything. The only companies we would have left would be foreign owned... since to make their money back from the defaulted loans, they will take advantage of the newly cheap real estate and businesses and consolidate their holdings. and be prepared that when things do pick up... you will be getting a mortgage from a chineese bank, and buying the land from a japaneese investor.


Now back to Michigan and Detroit... Roads and transportation are a piss in the bucket compared to what will happen to this state if we dont get our shit together. The days of doing business as usual has to go. Its about time that our government starts comming up with some bright and creative ideas to pull our ass out of this shitter before its literally too late. Were almost there... 1 or 2 more years of this and the entire region of SE michigan will see the same downward spiral that the city of Detroit has... and we all know that a rebound from the bottom may take 30-50 years.. by that time, most of us will be shitting in diapers or 6 feet under.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 186
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to wonder why if you all know so much about what Michigan needs why you aren't the governor, or a representative? I am glad that all these great economic minds are here to help Michigan.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1275
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because im not a corrupt asshole... therefore I cannot raise money to campaign...

Unless your absolutely loaded to begin with... its impossible to campaign unless u broker deals with special interests (drug companies, banks, lawyers looking to appoint certain judges, ect)... hence.. the current status of our government..
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1460
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If this downward spiral continues for another 2 years, you will see most of the residents leave this state, they will not wait 30-50 years for it to turn around.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1276
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what are u supposed to do if your house doesnt sell... firebomb it and collect the insurance? Its hard to leave a place when your entire life is wraped up in the house you own.


Not that it wont happen... ive seen quite a few new houses in shelby bombed out recently... and i know their not from construction accidents.

Similar to what happened to people leaving detroit in the 70s.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1463
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WWJ was broadcasting live from UM this week and interviewing people having to do with the future of this state. They were talking with some big time economist whose name I can't remember. But he essentially said the future of this state lies in the union negotiations in September with the Big 3. They need to competitive, if the UAW refused to budge, it will be the end of the Big 3 and end of Michigan. He predicts the UAW would not be stupid enough to shoot itself in the foot. And if all goes well we will see small job growth numbers as a state in 2008.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 413
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob: Simplified.....Bust the unions, and remove socialist politicians replacing them with pro business fiscal conservatives. Do it sooner than later, before it gets worse than it is.

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