Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » Buffalo gets it, when will Detroit? « Previous Next »
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 2159
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's an article about an initiative in Buffalo to curb sprawl. I don't know what's in their water there, but it's definitely not coming from Detroit through the Great Lakes water system. Here's how the article opens:

"Erie and Niagara counties rely on a provocative development practice: Each year, they build lots of new homes even though they lose lots of people.

"More homes means more schools, more roads and sidewalks, more water and sewer lines — all supported by fewer people. That means higher taxes.

“We can’t continue down this road,” said George Grasser, a prominent real estate attorney and an advocate for “Smart Growth” policies. “Other communities have done it. Now we have to do it.”

Yes, there are naysayers of course, but I can only imagine what would happen in the Detroit area if someone discussed this, let alone endorsed it. Lets hope that I'm wrong:

http://www.buffalonews.com/258 /story/54848.html
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1618
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that would be great, but buffalo benefits from a far less serious case of xenophobia and distrust of their urban/suburban counter parts
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 184
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I clicked on the link but it said that the article doesn't exist anymore.
I had to write a 25 page paper to finish at Wayne and for some reason I chose sprawl. My professor suggested that I focus on the program of Purchasing Development Rights. I found out quickly that sprawl is a complex, divisive issue too big to get one's arms around and a lot of these programs create as many problems as they try and solve; yet it still amazes me to see all the open space in the city and all the building going on in green spaces.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 2162
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ordinary,

Do you have a Brinkman class? Are you in the MUP program?

I'm a second year MUP, one more to go (I'm going part time while working a full time planning job).

One of the best papers I've found on the topic of sprawl (or peripherilization as Brinkman likes to call it) is by Galster. He wrote the definitive quantifiable definition of it. If you search for some of his journal articles you'll find it. I can't think of the title off hand (I couldn't find it in my jump drive files) but it was written a few years ago.

There's also some great stuff from the Brookings Institute on the transportation costs of sprawl. Here's an link to a powerpoint on it:

http://www.brookings.edu/dybdo croot/metro/umi/2006conference /20060217_haas.pdf

Here's the actual study:

http://www.cnt.org/repository/ AffordabilityIndexBrief.pdf

Hope this helps. Now it's time for me to get back to writing my paper too.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1269
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buffalo kicks ass. I love Buffalo. It's a much smaller city with a hell of a lot less to fix up than Detroit has. The problems in Buffalo are much smaller than those in Detroit.

The curb on sprawl could also be the effect from almost 15 years of no population growth. The region has had about 1.2 million people since the 80's. It's a great place, but they aren't seeing any net population gain. That's not to say the city isn't getting much nicer.

It'll come back someday. I believe the city is only about 38 square miles. Pretty small land area but a pretty dense city.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 537
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have to remember, that Buffalo's suburbs are also in population decline for the most part. That is not as much the case in Detroit.

Buffalo and its suburbs are also more connected. They have their issues, but they are not as polorized as Detroit and its suburbs.

I use to deal with tourists at my last job all the time. And basically it works like this.

Where are you from?
Buffalo
And they would always say Buffalo even if they came from some far out suburb, because I always asked what suburb they came from?

Then you ask the Detroiters

Where are you from?
"I am from Clinton Township". :-)

So overall Buffalo and its suburbs are more connected, and even the suburbanites still relate to the city more then in Detroit.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1621
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i grew up an hour and half east of buffalo, but people around here think i'm from there because i visit friends there so much :D

It's a cool town with many many parallels with the city of detroit, hell, my good friend works in an old model-t factory :-)
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 559
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miketoronto said: Where are you from?
Buffalo
And they would always say Buffalo even if they came from some far out suburb, because I always asked what suburb they came from?

Then you ask the Detroiters

Where are you from?
"I am from Clinton Township".

So overall Buffalo and its suburbs are more connected, and even the suburbanites still relate to the city more then in Detroit.

------------------------------ --------

To me, thats very intresting. I have seen a lot of people bitching on here about the number of people who claim they are from Detroit when they are actually from a sub of Detroit. So which is it?
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Detroitbill
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Username: Detroitbill

Post Number: 221
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if I entirely agree about the earlier comment regarding saying your from a suburb. I think its a mix, most of my friends in the burbs when asked where they are from when travelling always say Detroit I noticed.. they never say the suburb name,,, except for one from Bloomfield Hills who always says that burbs name...interesting I find..
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 562
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I lived downstate and went on vacation out of state, it was easier to say Detroit. People know where that is vrs a sub they have never heard of.
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 185
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bvos,
I was in the ISP (Interdisciplinary Studies Program) when I had to write that paper. My professor was a guy named Ron Aronson. That was probably the toughest thing I had to do in all my schooling. Ron was great but he was very tough. He would look at my drafts and they were full of red ink in about 2 seconds. I liked the program a lot. Is the ISP program still around? What about the College of Life Long Learning?
Good Luck with your studies. Thanks for the links.

Getting back to the topic. What was the article about? I still can't access it.
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Udmphikapbob
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Username: Udmphikapbob

Post Number: 339
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OT - Bvos, can you email me?

bob <dot> moreo <at> gmail <dot> com

I've got a Master of Architecture degree, and I'm hoping to shift into the planning field. I'm curious to hear about your path, and how you've got your planning gig before finishing the MUP.

I'd love to see what you guys are writing about.
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Rfban
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Username: Rfban

Post Number: 63
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interdisciplinary Studies is still around but under the College of Liberal Arts and not CULMA.
-----
Bvos, how are things? (MUP, GUP, BOYLE, VESPA)
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 187
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Rfban
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 2163
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ordinary,

I thought you were saying that you were currently working on a paper (finals week just ended today at Wayne). I see how I misinterpreted that. I haven't heard of Aronson. Must be in a different dept. Life Long Learning is still around.

CULMA is no more. The various departments have been absorbed into the College of Liberal Arts and Studies. CULMA was disbanded about a year, year and a half ago. It was a "cost savings" measure by the President. I say it was because the department was becoming too well renowned in areas that the President felt threatening to his administration (labor studies, minority studies, urban planning, etc.). He'd much rather have hired guns that he can keep on a tight leash come in and tell him what he wants to hear rather than employees of the university with 20+ years of broad experience in the topic who'll give him their professional take on things.

The GUP Dept. and the MUP program are doing very well. GUP just added an Urban Studies undergrad major. This is a great new major that creates a better track for undergrads wanting to do urban planning from a neighborhood and/or economic development standpoint rather than a strictly geography standpoint as it's been to this point.

The MUP program has a steady stream of great new students. A lot of great projects happening (we often come in when UM and MSU projects fail to live up to the specs laid out by the client and/or beat the socks off the UM and MSU projects). The poor local economy means that out of state folks are coming to campus and recruiting the cream of the crop from WSU for out-of-state jobs. That's a compliment to the program, not a detriment. However it's a detriment to the area.

The Center for Urban Studies is doing lots of great work as usual. With the tight economy a lot of local governments are using them for services instead of private firms. They get a much broader array of knowledge brought to the table as well as a more objective view point.

Boyle is doing well. He's the chair of the GUP Dept. and is keeping busy.

I'm not quite sure what VESPA means.

Bob, check your email.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 2164
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, here's an editorial on the article that is no longer posted online:

http://www.buffalonews.com/102 /story/58118.html?imw=Y
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 188
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't remember much about what I wrote for that paper but there are no easy answers. I know there were some drawbacks to the green zones that places like Portland, OR and other places have and what the author of the article seems to advocate.

Quote:
Any new business had to fit into the frame. “The [planning board] analyzed how any project affected public services, traffic, sprawl — all of that stuff,”

Now to me that sounds kind of scary. It seems like a lot of power in too few hands and it would slow things down also. And a lot of room for political shenanigans.
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Lukabottle
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Username: Lukabottle

Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bvos,
I take it you enjoy GUP's program. I was struggling between doing a Masters in Public Administration or GUP. After talking to several students and professionals, I decided to go for the MPA program. I start this summer. It is I think 26th top MPA in the US.

I was more interested in GUP but was given the impression it wasn't as rigorous and many students had difficulty finding jobs afterwards. Many I should reconsider. I was still going to pursue a Certificate of Economic Development from GUP alongside my Masters
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2414
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Now to me that sounds kind of scary. It seems like a lot of power in too few hands and it would slow things down also. And a lot of room for political shenanigans.



Yes, because Southeast Michigan doesn't suffer from those things now.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 869
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The most important first step would be to create a regional government. One very close second step to curbing sprawl, would be to simply not subside it. The region can't simply set a boundary as that would cause real estate to become overly expensive (although now would probably be as good of a time as any for the Detroit region to do this). Finally, the region must influence development rather than control it as there are plenty of legal issues surrounding growth.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2416
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The region can't simply set a boundary as that would cause real estate to become overly expensive (although now would probably be as good of a time as any for the Detroit region to do this).



How do you figure? While it is true that land values have risen dramatically in Portland, the detractors of the Urban Growth Boundary fail to acknowledge that Portland is still far cheaper than San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, and just about any other city on the West Coast. Could it be that land values increased because Portland became a more desirable place to live? Would it be such a bad thing to increase the stagnant property values in Detroit, thus making infill development more economically feasible?

I think a boundary is needed in Southeast Michigan, and development needs to be redirected toward the core. Unfortunately, I have no confidence in the Michigan Legislature or Governor Jenny to do a damn thing about it.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 871
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are basically just too many legal issues with a growth boundary, such as not allowing someone to do with their property what they want, "...I suggest that the areas where regulatory polices and techniques are most vulnerable to constitutional challenge are those that seek to control, rather than influence, the rate, amount, type, location and quality of growth, particularly those that attempt to control the amount and location and the quality of development." Taken from p.133 of my SUGGESTED READING, "Smart Growth: Form and Consequences" edited by Terry Szold and Armando Carbonell

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