  Soleil9 Member Username: Soleil9 Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2006 |
http://www.med.wayne.edu/pdfs/ DMC_proposal_to_MSU_DO_school. pdf http://www.med.wayne.edu/pdfs/ DMC_proposal_for_MSU_branding. pdf Read and discuss.... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 299 Registered: 11-2006 |
Nasty business that. It is like a mistress talking terms with a man still married to someone else. The criticism is both to the married man and the mistress (in her case for the stupidity of trusting someone with whom she is conspiring to commit adultery). The only one that comes out with any moral authority is the first wife....WSU in this case. Moral authority and integrity doesn't mean they will not be destroyed by the betrayal however. | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2007 |
Just be glad that it looks like MSU will put its new med school campus in the City of Detroit instead of Oakland/ Macomb County. The Med School would be a great addition to the city and produces a unique set of doctors who can serve the needs of the metro-Detroit area. (Message edited by sparty06 on April 13, 2007) | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2006 |
"Just be glad"?? What is there to be glad of? That MSU may be partnering with the equivalent of a seriel killer of medical education? That residents will have the honor of working with these despots in an urban setting in a medical center that has chased nearly all of its' faculty and patients away? Hip, hip hooray!! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5360 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm confused are you more worried for MSU, or are you more angry with a second 'marriage' for the DMC? | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 303 Registered: 11-2006 |
Actually, I am most concerned with the plight of the first wife....my alma mater, WSU SOM, then my undergrad alma mater MSU. Lastly, although in an inverse fashion, is my concern for the adulterous and leacherous husband...the DMC. The concern with them is that justice be served for their (mostly Duggans') crimes. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2006 |
The thing that would bother if I were a MSU COM rep is that converting all DMC only to combined allo- and osteo- programs would not help any of the students interested in any more competitive programs. A combined allo/osteo derm or optho or plastics residency could easily fill with allopathic students. Kind of a slap in the face to the students who transplanted down to the city. I wouldn't cut the deal unless they agreed to convert all allopathic programs to osteopathic. The primary care residencies not heavily applied to wouldn't be much of a problem for anyone to match in. Is their new ortho program application going to be to the AOA? They would probably easily get one. Not nearly as many friends of Wayne there. (Message edited by ortho313 on April 14, 2007) | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2006 |
That is a small detail issue, first on tap is agreeing to partner with the DMC with their history. Nobody else is interested? Henry Ford? St John? BOTSFORD!!!??? While none are perfect, except for HFH, none come even close to the DMC in terms of treachery and backstabbing potential. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 308 Registered: 11-2006 |
Although, now that I think about it, I do see why other systems would not be interested. They already have a full set (or close to it) of residency training programs that they own 100%. Only the DMC has programs in flux that they would be willing to share with a new partner. That said, nothing, or no deal at all would be preferable to dealing with this devil, IMO. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2006 |
A Message from CEO Mike Duggan on DMC's bid to host MSU's osteopathic college campus. In the next few weeks, MSU is going to make a decision of major importance to our community in deciding whether to site the new campus of their College of Osteopathic Medicine (COM) at Old Hutzel Hospital. It would be located in the vacant wing next to the Kresge Eye Institute. DMC began as a long shot because of the atmosphere of hostility on the part of the WSU administration toward osteopathic medicine. But in the last month it seems the tide may have turned due to the united efforts of Mayor Kilpatrick, County Executive Ficano, the City Council, the County Commission, Detroit's state legislators, the Midtown business leadership, and the Hudson-Webber Foundation, all working together to bring MSUCOM to Detroit Our proposal is pretty simple: rent vacant space at Old Hutzel to MSU for the classroom teaching of 1st and 2nd year students. Then host 3rd and 4th year MSU student rotations at Sinai Grace and Huron Valley Sinai in a training program led by private DO's. Why is being in Detroit so important? The city is in crisis for lack of primary care physicians. Detroiters are now hospitalized for treatable conditions such as asthma, diabetes, and heart failure at rates 2-5 times higher than their suburban neighbors. MSUCOM is a huge source of future primary care doctors. More than 50% of all MSU DO graduates stay in Michigan and practice primary care. From DMC's standpoint, the finances of Hutzel Hospital will improve when MSUCOM leases 20,000 square feet of space that has stood vacant for 4 years. It will also allow the Kresge Eye Institute to remain permanently located at Old Hutzel, because the building will now house enough paying tenants to remain open. MSUCOM is also very important to the futures of Sinai Grace and Huron Valley. It has always bothered me that DMC has this unspoken double standard that the downtown hospitals are somehow more important because they're the base for WSU teaching programs. For years, WSU has treated Sinai Grace and Huron Valley as afterthoughts, assigning those hospitals very few, if any, WSU students or residents in most specialties or rotations. I don't accept the idea that Sinai Grace or Huron Valley have to take a back seat to anyone. I believe they can be excellent teaching hospitals on their own, particularly if they are bolstered by a strong affiliation with MSUCOM and led by a core of highly committed private DO's. Dr. Jack Belen at Huron Valley and Drs. Mohamed Siddique and John Haapaniemi at Sinai Grace share this vision and are leading the effort. This approach doesn't burden the WSU full time faculty now teaching students and doesn't disrupt rotations of any WSU medical students. This plan has two key pieces: 1) Protect the WSU medical students from any infringement on their DMC hospital rotations. The WSU teaching program is extremely important to DMC and this community, which is why the DMC Board and I have both provided WSU President Reid written guarantees that if MSUCOM locates on our campus, no WSU student will be deprived of a DMC hospital rotation as a result. 2) Build a single coordinated Huron Valley/Sinai Grace DO training program using committed private physicians. Many don't realize Huron Valley has hosted its own DO residencies for years and is already a base hospital for MSUCOM medical student rotations. The medical leadership at both Huron Valley and Sinai Grace have agreed to partner to create a single outstanding DO training program that crosses both institutions. When I first came to DMC, I couldn't understand why my predecessors hadn't made the obvious changes needed to avoid bankruptcy and position DMC for long term success. I've since come to understand that for some reason at DMC all change is opposed by some faction, usually in ways that involve lots of nastiness and personal attacks. I think my predecessors just got worn down and gave up. I can't tell you how much it has meant that Mayor Kilpatrick and County Executive Ficano have stood with DMC every step of this battle for more than a year. I don't know how the MSU decision is going to turn out, but I do know it would be great for the City of Detroit and great for DMC's long-term survival. Chicago and Philadelphia each host five medical schools. Doesn't it seem like Detroit should be able to accommodate two? Mike | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2006 |
Karmanos Cancer Institute plans to buy Riverview Hospital, move clinical operations By Andrew Dietderich 5:32 pm, April 23, 2007 The Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute plans to announce Tuesdsay that it intends to purchase St. John Detroit Riverview Hospital from Warren-based St. John Health. A board member of the Detroit-based Karmanos Cancer Institute said late Monday that a letter of intent has been signed to explore the purchase. Crain's also obtained a copy of an e-mail from Karmanos President and CEO John Ruckdeschel that was sent to the Karmanos community announcing the plans. Karmanos will announce that it plans to move all of its clinical operations to the new site, located on Detroit’s east side on Jefferson Avenue, during the next 15-18 months, according to the e-mail. Public relations representatives from both Karmanos and St. John declined to comment in advance of the announcement. In the e-mail, Ruckdeschel said the cancer institute has run out of room to expand its downtown Detroit campus on John R. Ruckdeschel said in the e-mail that the cancer institute plans to begin a $20 million renovation of Riverview hospital as soon as possible and would move into the new location in fall 2008. Ruckdeschel said that purchasing the hospital is attractive for several reasons, including: more parking, almost double the space it has now for clinical operations, room for future expansion, an ability to provide 100 percent private inpatient rooms and expanded outpatient amenities. Riverview opened in 1987. It became part of St. John Health in 1997 when Detroit-Macomb Hospital Corp. merged with St. John Health System. According to its Web site, St. John is in the midst of a $32 million renovation and is licensed for 285 beds. It's located just east of the Belle Isle bridge. The Karmanos Cancer Institute was formally established in 1943 as the Detroit Institute for Cancer Research. The Detroit Institute for Cancer Research, Yates Cancer Detection Clinic, Michigan Cancer Registry and Michigan Cancer Foundation merged in 1966. Peter Karmanos Jr. donated $15 million to the center in 1995 and it was renamed for his wife. The institute treats more than 6,000 new patients annually and has a budget of $200 million, according to its Web site. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2006 |
Karmanos wants to move cancer operations to Riverview Hospital Detroit Medical Center plans legal fight over transfer Mike Duggan, chief executive officer of the Detroit Medical Center, said DMC attorneys will take quick legal action to oppose the sale. The DMC has a 100-year history of providing cancer care with Karmanos and its predecessor agencies. “The closure of Riverview is a moral outrage,” Duggan said. “It’s a total abuse of their tax-exempt status and needs to be investigated,” he said Monday. St. John system has closed two of its other Detroit hospitals, Saratoga and Holy Cross, since 2003, Duggan said. “The taxpayers in this state are subsidizing this behavior.” Eliot Joseph, chief executive officer of the St. John system and a former DMC administrator, said he doubted whether the DMC could succeed with any legal challenge. “We have an enormous commitment to the poor and the vulnerable,” Joseph said. “He can be outraged all he wants. It’s just theatrics.” Joseph said DMC should gain $10 million in business, and the Henry Ford Health System somewhat less if Riverview closes. Both health systems, as well as St. John’s flagship hospital on Detroit’s far east side, on the Grosse Pointe Woods border, have “extra capacity” to serve more patients, he said. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2006 |
Does anyone have a picture of the S on Hutzel lawn? | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 382 Registered: 11-2006 |
I hope, for MSU's sake (my undergrad alma mater) that they do not sell their soul to the devil that is the DMC. Hypocritical to have the students way out in...gasp..Oakland County for training at HVH. What happened to the mantra about all of these evil (other) hospitals abandoning the city? But it is OK for the DMC? Stop throwing stones Mr. Duggan, your glass house is at risk. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 358 Registered: 08-2006 |
Not to mention his sudden interest in the number or primary care physicians being trained, immediately after his dropping support for the Family Medicine residency that had formerly been joint-sponsored with WSU. | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 1479 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lots of outside pressure to bring this program to Macomb's University Center. Our politician's have finally stepped up to the plate. Strings are being pulled everywhere...including Macomb's large MSU alumni. A new four year university for Macomb is a pipe dream, so the awarding of this program will be a long-term step in the right direction. http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/050207/loc_medschool001.shtml (Message edited by Bong-Man on May 02, 2007) | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 42 Registered: 09-2006 |
So right on the money Zephyr...way too intelligent a comment for the masses. Doesn't anyone see that while everyone is crying about a future doctor shortage and thus the impetus to increase numbers...It is not the amount of doctors that you "train" (i.e. medical school or residency) but it is the amount of doctors that you can either retain or recruit to your area. They, like Zephyr has pointed out, are missing the point. This is coming from a soon to be done highly trained sub-specialist surgeon that SE Michigan could have used. So sorry charlie...I'm going elsewhere. | ||
Adamjab19 Member Username: Adamjab19 Post Number: 775 Registered: 11-2003 |
313_doc - so were you not offered a job or are there none available? Why are you leaving in such a rush? Just curious... | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 43 Registered: 09-2006 |
I'm already gone...and I'm not coming back. That's what happens when you close a residency. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2006 |
313_doc: I don't blame you for disliking (put mildly?) the DMC/WSU/Michigan politicians/The ACGME for their injustices leveled at you. However, be aware that you are not at all alone, nor was this a singular act of treachery for this bunch of clowns. Outside of the DMC, where anyone in their right mind would choose to be, you will find legions of like minded folks who have survived and thrived despite the treachery that we have endured. You may well find a world very much to your liking amongst these brethren. If there is a position, I would encourage you to consider it and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Of course, if you have already found greener pastures, best of luck. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 886 Registered: 10-2003 |
This should be very cool. As a Spartan, I am looking forward to the night before UM/MSU game days when the young physicians to-be run across Woodward and spray paint a block S on the U of M facility at Orchestra Place... well maybe not. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 36 Registered: 02-2007 |
I've never understood the point of Osteopathy, although it seems that the furthest original claims (that all disease can be cured through manipulation of the skeleton) have been taken up by some extremist chiropractics. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 400 Registered: 11-2006 |
Manipulation WAS a core philosophy distinguishing osteopath from allopath at the inception. Practically speaking, it is marginally, but significantly less rigorous to get into DO school as opposed to MD (average GPA~.2-.4 lower, average MCAT~2 points lower). After medical school differences are subtle, if at all. Osteopaths seem more cohesive and loyal, have better business and common sense, are a bit less bookish, and a lot less arrogant (I know, stereotypes, but.....BTW, I am an allopath/MD). There is some buzz that the DMC deal may not be a sure thing...I hope it isn't as getting in the pool with those sharks will almost certainly get you bitten sooner or later). (Message edited by ccbatson on May 05, 2007) | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2006 |
There will be hell to pay if the DMC does not get MSU COM. The paper reports that the WSU student senate has/is communicating with the COM student body to express their concerns about the move. There is mention in the paper that if at DMC the COM will likely have the feeling of not being welcome downtown by WSU - a potentially uncomfortable situation. This will be portrayed as huge WSU sabotage and treachery against the DMC, the city, and the poor - it already has been in the "DMC News" e-mails. There will be some sort of retribution - there always is with this regime. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 406 Registered: 11-2006 |
What can Duggan do to WSU that he hasn't already done, or tried to do? | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2006 |
Being that there is not an actual contract - a lot. The money still flows in only one direction and since the "legally binding term sheets" have already been violated on at least once there is no reason that this time of peace between the two cannot continue to get worse. Plus the public display of betrayal and treachery by the university "building life rafts" and moving to Troy and abandon the city. | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2006 |
Duggan will continue to falsely portray that treachery. He's already minimized the medical schools arguments of the DMC not being able to support more students to "we just don't want to share." Unfortunately I missed Dr. Franks town hall meeting so I don't know what was discussed but I do know that the medical students were asked to contact the city council regarding this matter. Supposedly the council passed a resolution endorsing the MSU move and a final vote is going to be wednesday whether to continue it. At this point I really think that Duggan is deliberately trying to create an environment where no one can train-student, resident, or faculty. And to think I'll be dealing with this for another 5-6 years unless he closes the general surgery program like he did ortho. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 411 Registered: 11-2006 |
Duggan cannot act with impunity here, he is employed by the board, and has obviously been influenced by those around him to back off when he gets too incendiary. I don't doubt he will try many dirty tactics if provoked, but there is very little bite in what he is able to do. As with the contract talk debacle, the ACGME would be alerted to any moves that further threaten the residents and his advisors would restrain him again. All of this is further illustrative of why MSU should stay as far away from the DMC as they can. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2006 |
At what point has the board in any way altered his behaviour? The only thing that has stopped him so far are the unconfirmed rumors that powerful republican business leaders in the area let it be known that a WSU bulldozing in the contract negotiations would not help his post-DMC professional aspirations. So far, the support for this is (to my knowledge) limited to one very conservative blogger. Members of WSU were uninvited to board meetings during time of the ortho collapse and master contract negotiations. There have been few on the board even willing to question his tactics, let alone make a stand against them. This is the board of a non-profit organization - that kind of showdown is not worth it. Plus, all they see are snapshots in time by a charismatic politician saying things are OK, feel free to go back to running your newspaper, private business, etc. I have even met DMC board members who think the ortho program was split and that DMC and Oakwood each now having their own orthopaedic residency. This is as recent as this fall. No offence, but I think you are confusing the "Justice League" with the Clampett family. The ACGME has many faces. One is clearly avoiding the "Oh, $h!+"'s of having to disband an entire GME program. They do not care that there is not a contract. Anything short of a complete implosion of the GME is fine. Plus, the longer ill feelings linger, the more likely it is that each side will be able to provide alternatives to their remaining joint sponsored programs. It would be a ideal for the WSU-Oakwood and WSU-Crittendon affiliations to flourish so that when residency X is on the block there will be viable options in place to disperse the bodies. The DMC has struck down its opposition, just look at the ortho department. They didn't give them any teaching money this year to complete the lame duck chief year for the 8 stragglers left behind. They were hostile, at best, toward the residents after it turned out they were not going for the new program. The department is little more than ashes. As long as the blood does not literally run out onto the streets, there will be some form of retribution. That's why people study history, to prepare for the future. | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 44 Registered: 09-2006 |
Mike Duggan, and for that matter Tom Malone, are proof positive that there are few laws/regulations in place to really safeguard medical education. They have blatantly shown to the observant few that if you carefully research the laws and act accordingly, you can have your way with the ACGME/RRC and CMS funding. Those two people are basically evil incarnate, Malone especially as he is an MD, but they have figured out how to dominate the Detroit healthcare scene (albeit not right now, but just give them a few years) because they understand the intricacies of how the money is distributed and how the labor force is governed. They have also controlled the media and the masses. It's easier for someone on Woodward to understand that the "rich doctors" are leaving instead of taking an extra two seconds to see past the propaganda and see that this isn't the case at all and the end result, i.e. next few years, is new and money making DMC Healthcare center that is not going to be concerned with the poor. Part of the problem is that WSU is so delusional and living in an alternate reality that says that you have to "play by the rules" and can't do this "dirty stuff" of taking the money and controlling the labor/residents. Nobody has stopped the DMC in the past. Nobody is going to stop them in the future. As Ortho313 so succinctly put it, this is a board of a non-profit. If the members of the board had even half a clue of what was really happening it is likely that things would be different. Nothing happened when Duggan took it to the 11th hour in November and nothing is going to happen now. Drs. Frank and Mentzer are like the pacifist kids on the playground who were raised by hippies and will simply stand around and whine and get their a$$ kicked on a daily basis, who don't get the girl and who grow up to be the wusses that lives in fear of the world simply because they feels that "someone" should step in and safeguard them. You know what...It's not going to happen. Duggan is going to walk all over them, like he has in the past, and will continue to do so as well as with SE Michigan until he gets what he wants and Malone is smiling while standing obediently by his side. Look folks, the mayor special-K, the governor and the ignorant masses are on the DMC's side. It's very simple to say WSU, just practice it..."Thank you sir, can I have another." | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2006 |
Innercitydoc: Your dept is probably safest (with ER). Last year several members of your dept didn't realize that there was a WSU/DMC dichotomy or for whom they actually worked (WSU through a clinical services contract). They thought everyone just worked for the hospital. In fact, a member of your dept is actually the head (SIC - specialist in chief) of orthopaedics for the entire DMC. I don't think anyone in ortho would even want it b/c there is going to come a time when some of the clinical decisions/actions are going to come under scrutiny and no one is going to want to be named as the person who was overseeing the whole thing and didn't do anything. GSurg has always said that in peril, they will just sign on with the DMC and remain relatively intact. Its what peds did. WSU being who they are, everyone in the dept would keep their academic appointments as well. People who signed on with the DMC ortho program, supported the people sending out bulletins describing how WSU was behind everything that happened, still support them and their PIF, participated in trying to take over the residency (even the program director and CMO eventually consented this was an accurate description of their attempt to have an involuntary withdraw of WSU sponsorship from the ortho program) are clinical faculty, some full professor. Its a win-win for them. I am not trying to trivialize you concern and likely frustration, I am just pointing out a few observations. | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 38 Registered: 09-2006 |
Yeah I remember similar remarks during my interview. Thankfully it didn't affect the programs ability to attract quality residents. As a matter of fact they didn't drop as low on thier rank list as previous years to get their 7 categoricals. I just hope that the environment doesn't become a malignant one because of this. More on MSU and the DMC: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2007705040380 | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 414 Registered: 11-2006 |
Unless something changes dramatically between the DMC and WSU, itt is just a matter of time before quality candidates no longer apply (if it hasn't happened already. IMO, the DMC supports and encourages Duggan, but deflects blame to him for the evil that is fomented. I say this because they have a long history of rapidly removing CEOs and employess with whom they disagree. If a current, or prospective resident has any other choices, they would be foolish and naive to think that they are safe from harm if deciding to sign on with the DMC (joint DMC-WSU, DMC with anyone else, or DMC alone). WSU programs absent DMC influence may be OK, but only if no other options exist. I am personally saddened by this realization and assertion as a former WSU med student, but....practical concerns of self interest have to be the priority for a young Physician. | ||
Getreal Member Username: Getreal Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2007 |
Gosh You Docs really have some issues with DMC, Mike Duggan and, and for some, Dr. Malone. Me thinks you protest too much!!! I have worked a DMC for 9 years now. I have worked with Dr. Malone and respect Mike Duggan. I love working at DMC especially after working at Henry Ford Hospital-- that sweatshop on Grand River with their egomaniac doctors. In fact I have worked at a number of hospitals in S.E. Michigan. Working at Hutzel Hospital has been the best. I think I can speak for the majority of employees at Hutzel when I say that our relationship with Duggan, our Doctors and all the other staff members is very good. We dont backstab each other. we treat each with respect and courtesy. I cant understand your gripes against DMC. I guess you Docs must have had you egos bruised. | ||
Getreal Member Username: Getreal Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2007 |
St. John should lose their tax exempt status. With the closure of Riverview Hospital St. John will have only one hospital in Detroit. Not in the inner city of Detroit but just a shout away from the Grosse Points. According to ST. Johns spokesperson, the closure of RiverView will give DMC more insured patients. Get Real! The majority of River View patients are either uninsured or on medicaid. Show me the money!!! Medicaid doesnt even cover the cost of health care. More cuts in Medicaid reimbursement are expected in the future because of Michigans budget problems. If St. Johns cant make Riverview profitable., how can DMC ? DMC cares for more uninsured patients and medicaid patients than all the other Detroit hospitals combined. DMC has six hospitals in Detroit. St. Johns Health system is trying to abandon Detroit and their charitable obligations. They already closed Holy Cross and Saratoga hospitals in Detroit. They are going exclusively where the money and highly insured patients are. I dont think that their charitable work is enough to deserve a tax exempt status, especially after trying to close River View. I'll be writing my legislative representatives to encourage them to conduct a study as to St. Johns Health Systems eligibility for tax except status. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1248 Registered: 02-2004 |
Getreal, There are a number of incorrect assumptions in your posts. One thing I'd point out though is that the DMC couldn't provide care to the under/uninsured without a significant contribution from WSU faculty. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 417 Registered: 11-2006 |
On the front lines, working at one of the hospitals, I can understand your perspective regarding the DMC. I also think that yours is the best attitude for your purposes at this time. However, outside of your situation, you should be aware of how malignant and politically motivated these folks are in other arenas. The details of this is spelled out voluminously on these boards. Suffice it to say, the DMC is often a real SOB. An absurd analagy for your consideration: All would agree that Hitler was a despot of the highest degree, right? Consider this..in his personal life as well as to those he favored, he was, at the time, very highly regarded by some people. Does that make him a good guy on balance? THe Nazi regime a compassionate organization? | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 45 Registered: 09-2006 |
Getreal...me thinks that you are either extremely naive or extremely ignorant...that or you are Duggan or Malone being a troll. Don't for an instance imply that my anger with the DMC is a matter of my ego. Don't confuse my animosity for that "institution" for something as shallow as my ego if you can possibly realize or fathom what they have done or are doing. Mike Duggan is a political bully who dramatically changed my life, who's path I only crossed due to the ACGME/RRC match algorithm that placed me at DMC/WSU. I have been in school for most of my life. I have dedicated my time to studying medicine. I have put many things on hold because I have believed in my education and my learning of my profession. Don't for once bring up my ego if you can't see that I was forced to leave my program and forced to suffer through an attack on my education because of someone's political quests and their ego. My fellow brothers and sisters had their lives turned upside down as well after we have all worked so hard to get to where we are. Mike Duggan has no concern for my education, my profession or that of my fellow residents. Tom Malone is even worse because he is technically a doctor but he forgot where he came. The DMC teat was just too tempting and too seductive for him. The DMC doesn't treat their people with respect and courtesy. Please ask Malone and Duggan why they didn't release our CMS funding. Please ask them why they felt obligated to secure our labor and wine and dine us to get us to sign on for their "better" residency. You need to get real, pull your head out and put down the Kool-aid before typing. | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2006 |
I second 313_docs sentiments. My fellow students and I came to Wayne to be at the DMC which is a great academic center to train. This will continue into residency with my fellow residents who will be taking care of Detroit's indigents. Now all of a sudden we have some lawyer who could care less about education kicking up dust for the dollar sign. And WE have the ego's??? Get real Getreal. P.s. The staff at the DMC has some of the most inefficient and unprofessional individuals I've ever encountered. I've seen everything from shouting matches, sexual harassment, and physical altercations (2 in one month) so don't give me that crap about relations. But yet in still I love the DMC. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 418 Registered: 11-2006 |
Mine were indirect and, perhaps less personally biased, experiences with this regime as I (very thankfully) completed training (med school) before they arrived. I then trained at a local private hospital before it was taken over and utterly destroyed by the DMC. I must point out that all have good and valid points....very stimulating and cathartic debating going on here. This is some of the best, well thought out stuff you will ever find on the net...Kudos | ||
Getreal Member Username: Getreal Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2007 |
I'm sorry the environment I experience at DMC is totally different from you Docs. I havent seen the shouting matches, the unprofessional conduct and the inefficient individuals you mention. I assume you are talking about Docs? Its is too bad that healthcare is now all about money. DMC is doing what needs to do to stay afloat. Unfortunately, things get ruthless when the money is most important. {Isnt that what the U.S. is all about?} From my perspective, DMC has really improved its health care delivery since Mike Duggan has taken over. Staff has adequate support and the means to provide exceptional care. Maybe some of you perceive that you are not treated with courtesy and respect at DMC. Maybe you havent. All I can say is that Hutzel is a great place to work. The friendliness, respect and professionalism is there. The environment is even better since Duggan came on. Oh by the way I dont drink Kool-aid and the reference to my head (where its at ) was very unprofessional and crude. Talk about "Doc rage". Sorry about your bad experience. I have no doubt that without WSU Med School, DMC would be in be in great trouble P.S The only experience I have had at DMC with unprofessional and rude conduct was with a WSU fellow. | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 46 Registered: 09-2006 |
I think that your last sentence sums up your understanding, or lack thereof of the situation. You mention that a "WSU fellow" was rude and unprofessional. I can almost guarantee you that he/she was not a "WSU fellow," but a WSU/DMC fellow. That simple, yet key difference, speaks volumes about the understanding that the masses have about the problems at the DMC. The fellow and the residents were, until recently, dual sponsored. They were not solely DMC or WSU and that key point is paramount to even beginning to fathom what has happened. Until you can understand the dual sponsored nature of the GME positions there, you cannot begin to comment on how "great" Duggan has been for the DMC. As for St. John, I think that the point is being missed. Riverview is closing and that has nothing to do with Karmanos. They are leaving an empty building that has a hospital infrastructure. Instead of leaving it vacant, Karmanos is looking to get in there so that they can speed up their expansion. Riverview is going to close no matter what Karmanos is going to do...As for the DMC helping out the uninsured and St. John's abandoning them and a reference to "money [being] the most important," I think you have fallen for Duggan wants you to believe. Ask St. John's how much money they are getting from CMS for their GME (the DMC is getting $80 million/year) and how much they are getting from the state (i.e. $50 million dollars from Lansing). To come back to reality, someone, somewhere needs to pay for the healthcare for the under/uninsured, whether that's Lansing or Washington. The DMC is not giving away care and I highly doubt that they are more efficient at giving it, thus they are either getting more money from outside sources (as above) or they are more "creative" with their books. Please don't rail on St. Johns for closing something that is draining money. Just ask yourself one question: Would you work for free? If you will, then I encourage you to submit your resume to St. John's Riverview. I think that this is a somewhat pointless debate with you because, honestly no offense, you cannot and will not understand the depth of the situation that has happen and continues to happen in Detroit. I only continue to put this out there because there are probably countless other people out there that aren't writing in, but will read this and take notice of what is really happening. I think that I need to take a step back and realize that you probably work 8-5 and have the blinders on of just seeing what goes on in your floor or department and can't see the forest that is the other parts of the DMC or WSU or the structure of GME. That's fine, just don't make sweeping generalizations about how Duggan is a savior because you can somehow associate his arrival with a perceived improvement. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 421 Registered: 11-2006 |
Getreal, I hear what you are saying and it seems that you boil it down to Duggan versus Doctors...this is a very short sighted and inadequate description of the situation....BTW, the DMC has been anti Doctor long before Duggan arrived....All of those horrible firings where the Docs came in to the office in the morning to find a DMC crew changing the locks started (but didn't end) before Duggan. Duggan has taken things to a new low however by going after the medical school and therefore students and residents using very dirty liberal socialist and trial attorney tactics....he is a poster child for everything that is wrong with the left and attorneys, IMO....giving attorneys a very bad name in the process. You may have had a good experience working for the DMC under Duggan, but that has nothing to do with his, or the DMC's character (rather, the total lack of any). I would argue that care is not better, but worse at the DMC in contrast to your comments. Why? Fire all of the quality Physicians, have the patients follow their Doctors out of the system leaving it a ghost town with benchwarmer quality Physicians running the show. Once upon a time (10+ years ago) there were services of renown available at the DMC and I would have sent friends/family there for care. At that time, Harper (without Hutzel and Karmanos renting extra space and moved in) would routinely see a daily census of 600. Now, with these other hospitals/lines of service moved in, they are lucky to top 250 (not to mention the uninsured percentage skyrocketing). Take out Karmanos and where does that leave them? Nowhere....it is a shame. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1249 Registered: 02-2004 |
313_doc, The thing that really gets me is that you know how Duggan will spin this when he leaves the DMC and runs for office again, most likely as Governer. He'll look like a savior and no one at WSU will dispute it. The general population will believe it and think that he saved WSU from leaving the city and moving to Troy/Dearborn/Rochester/Random Suburban location. | ||
Jk_one Member Username: Jk_one Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2007 |
Wow -- Ccbatson I have not read so much random venom in some time. I think it is time to step back from the key board and take a big deep dose of reality. As a faculty physician, who has been very close to both WSU and DMC for some time there are a number of key points you need to realize. 1) WSU SOM has for a long-time been working to diversify itself from the DMC to gain leverage and in all reality get better pay by serving a less medicaid based population. The last two SOM Deans, and WSU/Dean Frank started to form all kinds of relationships outide DMC as they felt it was importabt to diversify (Bought an empty $20M building in Troy with Oakwood that has resulted in little, formed alliance with Oakwood that is off to a rocky start and now trying to build something in Rochestor with Crittenton). After all that, I find it rediculous that WSU SOM is now playing the sympathy card with the Media that MSU SOM will now take away precious residency spots and there is not enough room for more than just WSU SOM. Can't have it both ways and there is by far enough opportunities in Detroit to support more than one program. Most major cities for 3-4 medical schools in rotations. Per your earlier anology, I don't think either spouse can cheat at this point - WSU started cheating some time ago. 2) The prior faculty orthopedic surgical leadership literally ran that residency into the ground. You can't fully blame the DMC for that mess....greed of leadership was not one sided and it surely cost DMC more to replace the prior surgeons for coverage than prior. Where are those surgeons now? They led the SOM (esp. surgical groups) that buying that $20M in Troy was the salvation. Nothing but dark lights and cob webs right now....our specialty group didn't and won't ever see the benefits of that spend (just wasted time and reduced the total $ that the entire WSU SOM could have received). Before the ortho leadership tried to hi-jack the program for more money they should have realized they were still employed by someone...they weren't private practice doctors but wanted to act that way. 3) I think all the faculty groups should ask to see the full disclosure from the SOM on how all the funds are flowing from the DMC to each group. When you add it all togheter I am still not convinced that there is a lot of skim coming off the top to pay for WSU administration and $20M buildings. The money for that building came right out our collective pool and your residency program....if that would have not been wasted away...you would still have a fine program to speak of. You may understandably want to vent against DMC and Mike Duggan...but do yourself a favor and ask some of the longtime tenured faculty about the true politics of the medical school and what is really going on behind the scenes vs. what is being portrayed. When all is said and done - follow the money trail. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 365 Registered: 08-2006 |
Jk_one quote: The sequence is relevant and significant. The courtships with Oakwood and Crittenton began immediately after the DMC unilaterally announced that the formerly joint-sponsored Family Medicine, Urology, Otolaryngology, and Dermatology residencies no longer fit their "strategic plans." Did you expect that the SOM would fold those residencies? stop teaching medical students in those disciplines? | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 47 Registered: 09-2006 |
It may be true that WSU started cheating a long time ago, but I hope nobody will deny that the DMC abused and molested the little ones. Which is really a more dire issue? Trust me, I am not going to deny that WSU is not at fault. In fact, I find the current leadership, mainly Mentzer and Frank a joke. They are certainly not ready for prime time. I was only blessed to cross paths for the Frank/Mentzer tenure, so I have little to comment on the previous leadership. As for having enough opportunities in Detroit and for saying that most major cities have 3-4 medical schools I would point out that Detroit is not most major cities. I am hard pressed to find any city in the US that is like Detroit. Please find me a place with a declining population, mostly a vacuum effect between the city and the burbs, literally no economy to speak of to drive the city and probably most importantly, little if any realistic hope for a turnaround in the forseeable future. Philly, Chicago and New York can all support numerous med schools, both MD and DO because of their size. Detroit is not those cities. As for talking about the ortho residency I would just tell you back your facts up. You should really avoid words like "hi-jack" the program when that is exactly what the DMC tried to do, and when they couldn't, they simply imploded it and cast the residents aside. Basically, if they couldn't have it, then nobody could. You also make it out like you and your department were bullied into the Troy building or your group was coerced or pushed into going with the flow. From I heard about the meetings, both from ortho faculty and others, the groups never seemed cohesive. Duggan did exactly what he wanted because there wasn't any solidarity between the groups. That was also Mentzer's failure to actually unite the UPG. Also, at that time, UPG was not being led by an orthopedic surgeon. Was the ortho group that big...I mean they had what...like 15 faculty max at one of their highest times and the entire UPG is something like 900. I mean, I know that some of them can yell at times and some of them are physically imposing... I have a hard time listening to most other faculty for that matter about their version of events. Even without a revisionist version of events, there are still some things that you can't deny, such as the despicable conditions at SGH that really fired the first shot in this whole thing. Did you stand up to voice your concern or did you not really understand what was going on until recently. If you really understand things now, than you are probably far ahead of most of the members of the UPG. Those are the ones that are still trying to get ortho consults and wondering why they are having such a difficulty. I think that the events in the last two year surmounted to a perfect storm scenario. Like I said before Duggan and Malone know that no one is watching the henhouse and Frank and Mentzer are still trying to figure out which end is up. (Message edited by 313_doc on May 07, 2007) | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 430 Registered: 11-2006 |
I agree with 313_doc..whatever the blame held by WSU it is as a result of incompetence and the like. The administrators of the school are Physicians, not nasty politicians and trial lawyers on the take, like Duggan. Furthermore, the last 3 Deans were ousted by intense pressure from...guess who...the DMC. Then they hand picked the successors (and had to do it 3 times...and still didn't get what they wanted...a totally ineffective Dean). The wrongdoing you allude to on the part of WSU is merely parrotting the onesided partial truths regurgitated by Duggan. Either they are misrepresentations, or flat out lies. Arrangements were agreed to by both parties (the DMC, and WSU) in the first place. Now, after the fact, Duggan is crying foul about the agreement that they both came to. He is essentially blaming WSU for following the agreement...pretty shifty business, that. | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 48 Registered: 09-2006 |
In the same light as what you are saying Cc, the DMC is plain and simple just an awesome spin machine. It's like Roger Clemons (DMC) in his heyday throwing ched at some 85 lb. soaking wet little leaguer (WSU). You get the picture. When this was going down with ortho, the residents were told "don't mix it up with Duggan, let 'our PR dept' handle it...he'll eat you alive in the press as he knows what he's doing" To this day I've yet to see WSU's PR dept. They told us that they hired a firm and consultants. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've only seen Dean Frank in the paper trying to justify his point. After a while it just gets depressing listening to him. -Your "best"! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and &%@# the prom queen. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 442 Registered: 11-2006 |
I agree that the DMC/Duggan spin some wild fables in true politician style to force feed the public via the media which they seem to have total control over. I don't know that I would say they are "awesome" spinners, as whenever i see their latest pitch it is all to transparent. But that is me, someone with some first hand information...maybe the general public buys it hook line and sinker? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1254 Registered: 02-2004 |
It's only too transparent if you have some inside knowledge. The general public really doesn't understand the situation. Honestly, it's a complicated business arrangement between the DMC and WSU SOM. I'm not even sure if the Board of either organizations really understands it. | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 49 Registered: 09-2006 |
I said awesome spin machine because it gets the job done. Sure, maybe 10% of the people know that the DMC is full of it, but the other 90% of people will buy it hook, line and sinker. So 90 vs. 10 will win every time. I'm not say they're right, I'm just saying they get the job done. Well...It looks like it's a done deal: http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070508/SCHOO LS/705080370 The fact that the student body had to sign a petition and write letters just proves that the WSU administration, mainly Mentzer and Frank, are complete bush league. For those of you who have been outside Michigan and have experienced medical education elsewhere, this just doesn't happen. These fluxes in the undergrad and grad medical education is unparalleled. When the LCME came a few weeks ago, did they just turn a blind eye to this. I mean, that board's function is to assess stability and strength of the education. How could they not see this on the horizon or cite WSU for this problem. It should not be the students responsibility to ensure the quality of their education. If that is their job as well, I would ask for a discount or refund on my tuition. I am also still amazed at the quotes by the people who make the decisions regarding the ability to support MSU at DMC. Does Colleen McNamara understand anything other than what Mike has told her. How is she, like Conrad Mallet, at all qualified to comment on medical education. It is a shame that they are somewhat empowered to make decsions with the ability to affect so many people. "What we intend to do will not in any way affect Wayne State students," said MSU Trustee Colleen McNamara, who expects an 8-0 vote on a resolution to split the school. MSU has tried to convince Wayne State of this, but "it's just not working out," McNamara said. "They simply don't want another major university in Detroit, and nothing we do or say will solve that." Old cronies are back together. I didn't notice the M.D. behind her name...they must have left it off in the article. (Message edited by 313_doc on May 08, 2007) | ||
Jk_one Member Username: Jk_one Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2007 |
As a number of you go on endless diatribes that have partial truths and accusations you should really do the background checks and know the 30+ years of history that you have now been a part of for the last...what 2 years of your training? The UPG made a woeful decision to try and collective bargain as one vs. prior when we each had ability to arrange for our own deal. A number of groups/specialiteis quite frankly just weren't pulling their own weight and had many, many, many unproductive staff/faculty members that were in all essesnce non-produtive. When the UPG merged and negotiated with WSU SOM, the collective bargaining agreement process failed - the spoiled and non-productive got coddled. A number of groups tried to exploit that and went to a number of institutions to negotiate on all sides of the fence to find a prettier deal than DMC had on the table. In the end, each group needs to look at one another and realize it comes down to dollars and loyalty. The groups were under contract and they were shipping patients and services elsewhere. Some groups just tried to walk away from committments, like Ortho at Sinai Grace, that was wrong. Even if they didn't like the pay or situation, they signed the contract and didn't honor it. That's as plain black and white as it gets. As we watched, Ortho thought DMC would have no option but to pay more - wrong - they made a business decision and replaced contracted physicians that would not perform. They had little choice. That defiance by Ortho sent the salvo and they reaction back didn't work in their favor and hurt the process and relationship since. Now- after many years/months - WSU SOM decided it was going to take its marbles and play elsewhere where newer freinds at a new playground (and publically did a number of moves to spite the rest of UPG/DMC/City of Detroit) and even said it needed to diversify from Detroit for better pastures (like Oakland/Dearborn/Troy) - they have the audacity to protest and rallly the students around not having MSU here? SHould be ashamed - as the City of Detroit needs more medical help, needs more primary care physicians and the infrastructures downtown can handle providing those services to the needy that we were quick to abandon for Troy Suburbanites. all of you as physiciains, living in metropolitan Detroit, which has terrible preventatitve child, elderly, maternal and basic care statistics should be ashamed to turn away other students/future physicians that are givers from coming downtown. There is no way 50 students would even be noticible in a campus of this size and they aren't even going to be taught by WSU faculty. We passed on that opportunity for Oakwood and Crittenton remember? | ||
Getreal Member Username: Getreal Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2007 |
Re: JK That about explains the history and current situation very nicely. Without any nasty insults too! Good call! | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1838 Registered: 06-2004 |
^^^^^^^^ Second that. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2006 |
The explanation of the SGH-ortho fall-out is a bit terse. It is more than the doctors leaving for greener pastures in Troy, or wherever else for that matter. The SGH president wanted more service from the dept to run a more comprehensive team-type plan as at DRH. Two things were needed - an infrastructure commitment - dedicated trauma OR time mainly, and money. SGH ortho had always relied on "friends of the program," private guys (mostly alums) to help fill the call schedule. The residents did the leg work and were rewarded by making the majority of the patient care decisions. The follow-up was mostly through the staff (core of 4-5) clinic. A team system cannot run that way when the call staff may be in his office or in OR and can only do cases maybe in a day or two, etc. Delays in getting patients to OR was a concern and an impetus for this interest in more service. The idea is to have someone there (or committed to being there) all the time - time often spent on endeavors such as private practice. Money would be needed to make up for the lost revenue during those times. Collections would not match the lost revenue. The dept agreed, the hospital president agreed - apparently he was interested in making SGH a level 2 trauma center. The plans never got past corporate. At that time, the chief of orthopaedics at SGH stated that conditions at SGH were not adequate to support education there. It is my understanding that that stance has changed, evident by the application for a new training program with SGH as a key site. The ortho-DMC plan included a list of clinical services. It also included that an inability to meet a given term would ultimately lead to a form of arbitration after notice given. Both sides say the other refused an arbitrator. In turn, the DMC decided that if ortho was not going to provide services at SGH, they did not want them at any of the sites in the service contract. One often circulated description uses the term blackmail to describe the ortho stance. Others use some reference to the residents as hostages. Like everything else, it comes down to who you believe. University: SGH conditions deteriorating, plans in place for improvement, lack of support by hospital system. Hospital system: greedy physicians demanding more money by threatening to pull labor force (residents) entrusted to them. The rest, as they say, is history... I provide this in support of the plea to avoid "endless diatribes that have partial truths and accusations". Critique the above as you wish. There are e-mails and correspondances to objectively support the majority of what is written above. Admittedly, some in inference and word-of mouth though. There are many linchpins in this though. Not the least of which is the involvement of ortho in the UPG. Regardless of the success of the UPG, collective bargaining by the physicians would (likely) never be in the best interest of the hospital system. How much of the willingness to go the distance with ortho was really a willingness to risk it for the sake of weakening the head of that group? Again, it depends who you ask? Some say it was never a thought, others disagree. I am unsure how much blame to put on ortho for the Troy building. Why? There was one last vote of the chairs as to whether or not to proceed with the acquisition. If memory serves me, the vote was in the neighborhood of 14-1. This same collection of chairs voted for proceeding with the then (3rd?, 4th?) contract master affiliation extension without orthopaedics (a much closer vote though), essentially leaving the dept out to dry as the remaining depts moved on without saying that they were determined to ortho stay with them. Some say it was just too late, others disagree. Tough to think, though, that a group could be so influenced by that one dept and then so soon afterward decide not to support them. Again, a matter of opinion. I really do not remember a lot of arms being pulled for that Troy building vote though. I do remember at least one dept head stating he could not believe the university just fired their orthopaedic dept after that second vote. Good luck to the MSU and WSU students. I doubt they will but heads. I hope one day someone with authority points out how silly it will be to have two schools so close, duplicating efforts with no cooperation, etc, essentially wasting the opportunity to use each other for the betterment of those being taught. (Message edited by Ortho313 on May 08, 2007) | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 446 Registered: 11-2006 |
Split the campus...hmmm...interesting, and very stupid on MSU's part. In the short run, being a compromise, everyone will be disappointed but nobody will be the complete loser..initially..except the students of course. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment, Let's see, should I sign up to go to MCC, in the middle of nowhere, where few educators will want to go because it is distant from everything else and without anything but a classroom and a few labs as resources? What about the DMC where nobody wants me to go/hates us, in the middle of system that is falling apart in front of my eyes, in the city where the roads to and from home and clinical rotations are closed for a good couple of years? Hey, here's an idea, I could go to MCC on Mon-Wed, and a half day on Friday and the rest of the time at the DMC. Or maybe I should stay in East Lansing where the program has been in place and working well for a long time....tough call?? What is MSU thinking??? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3171 Registered: 10-2004 |
What's even funnier is the whining from WSU's Medical School about MSU's plan. I though that those in medical school were supposed to be smart. WSU claims that those in their med school would have a rough time with MSU being near their sandbox. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2006 |
If MSU was trying to expand by 50 spots, but instead expanded by 100, didn't they do well for themselves? If one does fall apart, the other will likely be able to accommodate. Looking into MSU COM's recent history, rankings, reputation, they appear to make more good than bad decisions. People spending too much time downtown may not be able to recognize good decisions any longer though. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2006 |
They have thrived in ruralesque East Lansing, now they intend to get in the pool with the Sharks (the DMC) in Detroit. I believe that they know not what they are getting themselves into. I am interested in how they will select the students that go to these satellites. If it is voluntary....well, good luck with that. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2006 |
It is in the best interest of the medical center to have a healthy, productive relationship with their new tenants. A second publically dissatisfied partner would be too much to explain away. Now, people pick sides whose fault things are: WSU or DMC. If the cycle repeats, it will make the decisions easier for many to make. If it doesn't, its easy to point to Scott Hall as the problem. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 453 Registered: 11-2006 |
And what will happen when (not if) the interests of MSU COM, and the DMC come in conflict? It will be like dumping chumm in the aforementioned pool filled with sharks and a hapless MSU COM. Remember, Duggan=political malignant trial lawyer=shark versus MSU COM=Physicians and administrators not unlike Deans Frank and Mentzer. | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 50 Registered: 09-2006 |
Yes...but there is the McNamara wild card with Colleen being a trustee and likely being able to force MSU from above. So, unlike WSU, MSU will actually get pushed from two sides, Duggan in Detroit and McNamara in Lansing. Wow, is WSU actually on better footing for once. I honestly think WSU missed the boat to get away from the DMC. They should have tried to affiliate with Beaumont, but missed that boat, and for some reason seem to keep a far distance from Ford. I know that HFH is its own entity, but what if they had a real medical school affiliation. Also, I see this as the beginning of the end for WSU in Detroit as we know it. MSU will start to have students down there, now 50 per year, with a four year total of 200. I think it's only a matter of time before the DMC starts to convert the residencies to DO, because they will have more control over MSU than WSU. Just remember who controls the money. We all learned that last year. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 457 Registered: 11-2006 |
The problem of reaffiliating for WSU is that all of the other systems (WBH, HFH, St John) already have their own postgraduate training programs (to one degree, or another). Why would they be interested in sharing revenue that is currently 100 percent their own? HFH may have payed a pittance amount for a primary Med school affiliation but not enough to satisfy WSU's needs. WBH and OU is a different story, because OU is starting with nothing in regards to residencies (and probably will not demand nearly as much as WSU would in terms of money). | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 40 Registered: 09-2006 |
Its great to see that Livernoisyard can find a way to be a dickhead on just about every thread |
