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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I recently skimmed a book on the Jewish community in Metro Detroit, and was fascinated by the migration from Northwest Detroit to Oak Park and Southfield. During the 60's and early 70's the Jewish community relocated from an environment of big, beautiful homes on tree-lined streets and nearby walkable retail strips, to generic little ranch homes in South Oakland County. Businesses, temples and schools soon followed.

Can someone give an overview of the boundaries of Jewish Northwest Detroit (residential and business areas), the general migration time line (the 60's, obviously, but was there a remaining Jewish community well into the 70's?) and whether there are any surviving businesses or community institutions in Northwest Detroit?

The book (I forgot the name but I read it at the Borders near downtown Birmingham) described the changes at Mumford High, which went from almost entirely Jewish (I think) around 1960 to almost entirely black around 1970. Was there a Jewish presence in other high schools (perhaps Henry Ford?)? Were there any religious schools that survived after the more secular portions of the community left?

I would love to hear about this community from anyone who was around during this era and knew the community. Thanks.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2953
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just track the synagogues. Dexter to 6 Mile and Livernois, etc.
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Psip
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Post Number: 1747
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/6790/69744.html?11634781 81
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 59
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, PSIP. Lots of good stuff in these older threads.
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 1202
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paging Jjaba, call for mr. Jjaba!


Call for Morris Phillipberg
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5179
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba here.

jjaba is your guy. 56packman, here goes.
As for schools, no Detroit Public School ever had more than 50% Jews.

So attendance at DPS high schools among Jewish students went something like this:
Old Central (old main at WSU)
Eastern
Northern
New Central (Tuxedo)
Mumford
Ford
Some at Cooley
And always a good number at Cass Tech.

There are two Detroit synagouges, one called Downtown Synagogue and the other a Reconstructionist Congregation in Lafayette Park which rents space nearby in an office bldg.

It is safe to say that 80,000 Jews in SE Michigan live mostly in suburbs. Most Jewish institutions are also suburban today. However, Jews work all over the Detroit area. Jews own property all over Detroit too.

Maybe this is a start.

The patterns of migration are well-documented in the Jews in Detroit thread. View the synagogue ruins tour on this website and follow the addresses of Detroit cemeteries for addl. clues.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor. (who did not grow up with very many Jews. jjaba grew up "Jewish adjacent".)
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 5180
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jews have lived in many Detroit areas.

North End
Inner Eastside.
Hamtramck.
NW Detroit.
DelRay.
Dexter-Linwood-Woodrow Wilson area.

jjaba.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5750
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and they went to the promised land called Oakland County.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 4203
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come on Jjaba, dont you guys ever come over to the east side for things besides funerals? lol
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Gibran
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Username: Gibran

Post Number: 156
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

very cool site...I am not Jewish but the history lesson is very nice.
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Dodgemain
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Username: Dodgemain

Post Number: 143
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JJaba tells it like it is. Thanks
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 5185
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jews arrived and lived at about Chene Park, then worked there way up into the German neighborhood along Gratiot and Eastern Market.
They owned Hastings St. and Oakland and Westminster. Their synagogues line Woodward Ave. Considine Center was the JCC, Woodward and Clairmont.

But then, they crossed the great divide around Clairmont and were a large community West of Woodward after about 1940. As they got more money, they moved along Linwood, Chicago Blvd., Dexter, Livernois up from Grand River to W. Davison or so.

Then, a huge NW explosion of W. Mc Nichols, W. Seven Mile Rd. up to the Eight Mile City Limits and out to even Telegraph. W. Outer Drive, Vassar, out James Couzens.

Then, to the suburban beyond of today after 1950.
Northland Center in 1954 was a big deal to Jewish merchants and customers. jjaba can remember the HS girls with their Hudsons Green manual imprinted charge cards.

Jewish residential patterns change every generation, or 25 yrs. It seems like a signal is given, a bingo, they leave for the next place.
Note the recent changes in Southfield, Michigan as example.

A generation back, a signal emptied out the Mumford HS district quicly too.

Former JCCs. W. Davison and Dexter, Woodward and Clairmont, Meyers Rd. and Curtis. Each was built for a difference generation.

jjaba, Westside Torah Bukkor. (there goes the neighborhood)
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Swingline
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Post Number: 779
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard a signal has already gone out in W. Bloomfield. That's why new subdivisions and delis are sprouting like weeds in Commerce Twp., Highland Twp. and even Livingston County. This decades long NW movement trend will end shortly though. SE Mich Jews will make a left hand turn very soon and most will be living in Chicago within a generation or two. Jjaba, can you confirm from the inside?
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 5187
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba cannot predict behaviour, only watch it.

Chicago Jewry numbers about 250,000. Unless there's a Holocaust in Detroit, I doubt if any self-respecting Detroit Jew wants to sit in Wrigley Field. Remember, that's where they yelled "kike" at Hank Greenberg at the 1935 and 1945 World Series. Like jjaba, most of us can't stand the place. After all these yrs., it still stinks.

jjaba.
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Cmubryan
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Post Number: 415
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Detroit Jewish community will not just get up and leave. We are too indebted to the area after being here 200+ years.
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 5192
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cmbryan tells it like it tis. Jews here have thrived for centuries. Intergnerational roots go deep. "Indebted", explain the concept.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Danny
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Post Number: 5753
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no Detroit Jewish Community, but Oakland County Jewish Community. I went down Dexter Ave. and didn't see any Jewish owned businesses with Hebrew letters written on their awnings, glass picture windows. I didn't see any Hasidic Jews walking down the street coming to and fro to any synagogues. The Jews in Detroit neighborhoods are long gone replaced by black-folks, but their markings are still there.
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 2970
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is there still a synagogue a few blocks NW of 6 Mile & Livernois? I passed by it a year or two ago, and it seemed intact. Maybe it serves another faith today?
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Danny
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Post Number: 5755
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What synagogue in NW Detroit? Tell me the name of it. otherwise there no synagogues left in NW Detroit but Oakland County cities from Oak Park to Commence TWP.
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Ha_asfan
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Post Number: 103
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The migration patterns of Jews in Detroit is similar to the migration patterns of other ethnic groups. My family moved to Detroit in 1924 to a few streets North of the DIA then to Palmer Woods and the Vasser/Outer Drive neighborhood. From there the "big spread" took place to Huntington Woods [i am still there], Bloomfield Hills, West Bloomfield, Orchard Lake, Franklin and now, the far West environs of places whosse names I don't even know. I remember in 1963 when an aunt and uncle moved to Middlebelt and 13 mile road. My parents loaded up the station wagon and we drove from Palmer Woods out Seven Mile Road to Coolidge up to 12 Mile Road to Northwern Highway where we had a picnic in a field. The Next leg of the journey was only two miles but it took forever driving through mud ruts and finally arriving at the new house on the hill which the car couldn't navigate and we needed waders to climb through the mud. I make that drive nearly daily now and it takes me 20 minutes....the tragedy of Jewish Detroit, Polish Detroit, Italian Detroit, German Detroit and others is that the dispersal of the communities killed the cultural communities. The cores are gone and that is a shame.
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Danny
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Post Number: 5756
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's right Ha_asfan,

And to assist the the sudden disappearance of Jewish Detroit, Polish Detroit, Italian Detroit, German Detroit and others is caused by segregation, xenophobia, freeways, shopping malls suburban sprawl, the 67'riots, the election of Coleman A Young, official black takeover of all city services, growing black communities left and right, crime, blight, murders, gangs, crack epidemic, bad Detroit Public Schools, city corruption, gentrification and lack of police patrols. We saw these things as we grew up and now we are talking about it and it seems there is no end these problems.

I can't wait to see what happens when black-folks from Detroit flight to the white communities in the suburbs.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2971
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

What synagogue in NW Detroit? Tell me the name of it. otherwise there no synagogues left in NW Detroit but Oakland County cities from Oak Park to Commence TWP.


Yawn!

Not being Jewish, I have no idea if this is a real Jewish synagogue or not. But I really don't much care either. Maybe the following isn't Jewish enough for Detroit--maybe not even Jewish at all...

First Tabernacle
18515 Wyoming St Detroit, MI 48221
313 - 861 - 6974
Category: Jewish Synagogues
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Danny
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Post Number: 5759
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard,

That former synagogue in 18515 Wyoming St. Detroit is now a black baptist church. They brought the synagogue in the late 1970s.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2972
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not surprised...

Some of them even retain the synagogue in their names, it seems. Is it possible that any of them might be used for multiple faiths? That ecumenical concept isn't exactly new.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5760
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NO Livernoisyard,

Few black baptist Detroit churches who now owned those former synagogues like to leave those Hebrew markings out because it represents what Christianity comes from.
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Cmubryan
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Username: Cmubryan

Post Number: 416
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danny, you speak of acting as one DETROIT region in another post and then you say there is no Detroit Jewish community but an Oakland county one. That sounds like hypocrisy to me.

BTW, there is a synogogue in the city still...Downtown Synogogue.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2973
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was not Baptist but a Church of God in Christ...
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Danny
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Post Number: 5763
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Cmubryan,

But not a Jewish synagogue in West Side or NW Detroit in 27 years. The Last Jewish synagogue in NW Detroit was Temple Israel on 17400 Manderson in Palmer Park. The congregation moved to West Bloomfield in 1980 and now have a bigger and better synagogue on the corner of Walnut Lake Rd.( 16 Mile Rd.)and Orchard Lake Rd. built just 7 years ago. Go Check it out, it's beautiful inside. Once again the there is NO organized Jewish community in DETROIT anymore, but there is a organized and Americanized Jewish community in the Promise Lands of NW Oakland County cities from Oak Park to Commence TWP. It's not hypocrisy, you can go check out the M.I.M.I.C. demographics the WSU's Centers of Urban Studies web site if you want more evidence and then you'll see who's right!
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5764
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Like jjaba said and he's absolutely right.

Every 25 years, a organized Jewish community will move to one place to another. and I wonder where are they are going next?
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Missnmich
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Username: Missnmich

Post Number: 588
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"...the tragedy of Jewish Detroit, Polish Detroit, Italian Detroit, German Detroit and others is that the dispersal of the communities killed the cultural communities. The cores are gone and that is a shame."

Two generations ago, my family was part of a German enclave. Today, my sisters, cousins and our children are just Americans, dispersed all over the nation.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2975
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Almost all of my Detroit Polish and Milwaukee Austrian cousins left both communities long, long ago.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1176
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Every 25 years, a organized Jewish community will move to one place to another. and I wonder where are they are going next?"

Florida?
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5765
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Missnmich

That's because your relatives have been Americanized just like my relatives have been Americanized. Some of them even lost their cultural heritages given away to a new ideological hip hop retro disco media textual culture filled with neo-hippie lifestyle and words of un-truths and common lies that is being called truth.
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 2976
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Milwaukee: How many Jews in the typical Jewish enclaves of yore still remain?

The ones I knew were: Sherman Blvd (43rd)--1/2 block away from me during the 1950s, Center Street, North Avenue, Burleigh, 51st (on my newspaper route), and 60th Street. I'm sure that there were other areas--where Jew-flighting occurred, heading NW through and out of Milwaukee along those many NW diagonal streets on the North Side.

The 6th and 12th Street enclaves were gone by the late 1940s or early 1950s. And I no idea where the older ones were.

I would suspect that few of them remain in the city in any distinct clusters as in the past.
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 5195
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just West of Livernois on Curtis is the former Adas Sholem, AKA Adat Sholem. It is a conservative congregation which moved out of Detroit with the migration to the suburbs.
The building appears on the synagoue tour on this website.

Perhaps this is the building in question in post by Livernoisyard.

Detroit's Jewry lives in several places for the most part. There's a Troy and a Grosse Pointe congregation; there's a presence in Huntington Woods, Royal Oak, Ferndale, Berkley, Pleasant Ridge, Oak Park. These communities have been quite settled for quite some time. The N. Oak Park community is decidedly Orthodox.

Then, there's the sprawling Southfield, W. Bloomfield, and Farmington Hills, Novi community, and points beyond.

There has alway been a separate Pontiac congregation as in Ann Arbor, both of which jjaba doesn't call suburbs.

There is a historical Jewish Agricultural Movement in Michigan but most Jews couldn't endure as farmers. You'll find remnants of these settlements around Kalamazoo, South Haven, and in other Michigan farm belts.

jjaba, Westside Torah Bukkor at UHS on Dexter Blvd.
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Cmubryan
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Post Number: 417
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danny, Temple Israel is on Walnut Lake Road between Drake and Farmington-not at the corner of Orchard Lake Rd. I know it's nice inside I've been in there several times-last time being Tuesday.

Jews are not in "Northwest Oakland County." Oak Park is more like SE Oakland while Commerce might be considered more SW Oakland and West Bloomfield pretty much S Central.

Either way, I wasn't arguing you on their current location, I was arguing you on the fact that they still consider themselves and should still be considered Detroit Jews because we are ONE region.
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Mccarch
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Post Number: 115
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A sidebar to this is that I sense there were "jewish" and "non-jewish" summer resorts in Michigan.

I have a postcard from a resort on Lake Erie near Monroe that promises it is "highly restricted". I think we know what that means.

I have a number of postcards from various resorts in South Haven. If crude assumptions can be forgiven, several of the cards are written by and addressed to "jewish" names in the Detroit area; I assume that South Haven had a number of "jewish" resorts. Does anyone know more about this?
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 2982
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

If crude assumptions can be forgiven, several of the cards are written by and addressed to "jewish" names in the Detroit area


I'd accept that premise...

Presumably, on account of my Austrian (high German) surname being remotely considered Jewish appearing, I occasionally receive unsolicited emails for Jewish this or that.
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Danny
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Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jews are not in "Northwest Oakland County." Oak Park is more like SE Oakland while Commerce might be considered more SW Oakland and West Bloomfield pretty much S Central.

YES they are. Go check out their Jewish Community Center in Commence TWP. West Bloomfield is more NW central then south central. The Jews in most O.C. cities are conglomerate in Oak Park, Southfield, Farmington Hills, Farmington, Bloomfield TWP, West Bloomfield, Bingham Farms, Beverly Hills, Franklin and Lathrup Village.
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Chuckles
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Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just out of curiosity where does Sonny Eliot and Donald L Golden live...

Danny in your response post to Ha_afsan you left out "Grape throwing concerned parents" at DPS administration meetings...
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Jjaba
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 2:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

South Haven, Michigan was quite the resort community for Chicago Jewry in summer. Lake Michigan steamers would bring 1,500 over at a time and resort owners would stand tall to greet customers, solicit business, and haul them and baggage to the property.

In summer, 1933, jjaba's mother came over by steamer and jjaba's father drove from Detroit. He had a car and a good factory job in 1933. They met, and married in Chicago a yr. later. Their first residence was on W. Grand St. near Dexter in 1934. They had been invited to the same large family reunion somehow.

South Haven resorts had Kosher food and Jewish entertainment. There was a synagogue running each summer and there were Jewish merchants downtown.
The hotels were old large houses, converted into rooms for guests. Families would book, American plan, usually for a week.

When civil rights advancement allowed Jews to go anywhere, when Fla. opened up, and when more people had cars, more money, or could fly, South Haven shriveled as a Jewish resort.

South Haven is also near to some Jewish farming areas and also some summer Jewish camps.

jjaba never went there for vacations because Dad's desire was to go on much longer auto touring around the whole country. He took his 3 weeks paid in July and got a long way's away in the 1940s and 1950s. By HS graduation, jjaba had been in 43 states and inside most of the capitols.
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 2:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geez, Jjaba, all this talk has me jonzin' for a Bread Basket Deli corned beef & pastrami "United Meat" sandwich with Swiss cheese & Russian dressing...

And then a 2 hour nap to digest it all... :-)
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Whithorn11446
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Post Number: 30
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 2:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Just out of curiosity where does Sonny Eliot and Donald L Golden live..."

I believe Sonny Eliot is in Farmington Hills these days. For years he lived in the Lafayette Park area on Nicolet Pl. Sonny was there 1960's-1970's for sure and possibly up to 1980's. As far as Donald L. Golden, I know that in the mid-1960's the founder of D.O.C. lived on Canterbury in Sherwood Forest. I have no idea if he left for the suburbs and if so which one. Bill Davidson, owner of the Pistons lived in Sherwood Forest at that time as well on Pembroke between Roslyn and Chesterfield
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Bvos
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One question I have is if the Orthodox congregation in Oak Park will be able to follow the exodus out to the Promised Land which continually moves farther and farther NW. They are pretty tied to their neighborhood since they have to walk to and from the synagogue on the Sabbath. I don't see a walkable neighborhood sprouting up in Livingston Co.
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bvos... also they better stay put... those 3 large, expensive (and maintenance prone) overpasses over the I-696 freeway were built for them...
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 5199
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok knows NW Jewry. Amazing for an Eastsider.

Documented elsewhere, those 3 overpasses on I-696 were negotiated over 10 yrs. by Irv Rubin for the Highway Dept. and the Orthodox Jewish community.
Essentially, the users of the W. 10 mile Jewish institutions of Mikva, synagogues, JCC., old folks homes, etc. wanted to walk in quiet on Shabbos. The highway was put between their houses of worship and the residences to the North. So, those bridges were put in, over which are paved and landscaped parks and paths.

The tunnels are the longest allowed on Interstates without heating. The Jews there are not inclined to move out. They have even bought up public schools to run as Talmud Torahs for their young. They have large families and add additions to the Oak Park standard 1950s ranch homes. Royal Oak, Ferndale and Huntington Woods Jews aren't going anywhere either.

This stability differs from the big moves each generation of Jews in Southfield, etc. 50 yrs. from now, with these Jews still here, the others will be living in Shiawassee County somewhere. Buy farm land in Owosso!!! You heard it first here.

jjaba, jonesing for a Breadbasket Deli Shecky Green Special with Russian Dressing, and half-sour pickles. (pastrami-corned beef and chopped liver, slice of swiss, russian dressing on twicebaked Jewish rye.) Wash it down with Dr. Brown's Bing Cherry soda.
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Plymouthres
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba-

I would like to thank you for sharing all of your knowledge about the Jews of Detroit with us. Your postings, most often, have me riveted to the threads that you participate in. Although I am in my late 40's, and have many, many good friends that are Jewish, I have never heard some of the profound information that you provide. Your no slouch on Detroit history, either! This is one Armenian who appreciates your "educating" me!!

Shalom!!
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Jjaba
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Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome to Forum, Plymouthres. jjaba is a generation older than you and gladly shares with you. Your neighborhood is the next generation of the people who came up with jjaba near Schoolcraft and Wyoming in Detroit. They left in the 1960s during the massive white flight to the world beyond.

Imagine a Dexter Blvd. full of pushcarts, baby strollers, Yeshivah bukkors walking around like you see on Greenfield or W. 10 Mile Rd. in Oak Park. Imagine open pickle barrels. Kids going to ballgames on street cars or electric buses. Kids playing steps baseball or street football and kick the can until the streetlights went on.

jjaba, Saalam Alekem.
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Cmubryan
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Username: Cmubryan

Post Number: 421
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"YES they are. Go check out their Jewish Community Center in Commence TWP. West Bloomfield is more NW central then south central. The Jews in most O.C. cities are conglomerate in Oak Park, Southfield, Farmington Hills, Farmington, Bloomfield TWP, West Bloomfield, Bingham Farms, Beverly Hills, Franklin and Lathrup Village."

Danny-first the JCC is in West Bloomfield not Commerce. Look at an Oakland county map and you will see that WB, Southfield, Oak Park, etc. are all in the southern portion of the county. For crying out loud Farmington, Southfield, Oak Park all are on the Southern border of the county and definitely closer to the Macomb County line than the Livingston county line. West Bloomfield is the next township north of bordering Farmington so obviously its still on the south end of the county and Commerce is due west-not more north. I will give you that Commerce and Novi might be considered SW Oakland but definitely not NW!
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5338
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Out of curiosity, did the Census have a count of the number of Jews in historic Detroit (1920-1950)? I've never seen a solid number or percentage over those decades, and I wonder how big the population really was, and compared to other cities, at that?
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Plymouthres
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Username: Plymouthres

Post Number: 74
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba-

Thanks very much for the welcome!

Actually, dad grew up in Delray on Solvay and mom on Honorah in Detroit. They came here after our great Genocide, in the early teens and 20's. Dad worked at Woodward and the Boulevard for MESC for 42 years. He was the first Treasury Agent in the State of Michigan, badge number 1. Mom worked there as well, for 38 years, 20 before Plymouthres and 18 after I got into my own world and she didn't think she was needed as a stay-at- home-mom anymore.

Grandpa, on my father's side, had a residence in Sw Detroit, on Pitt off Inglass down the street from St. Gabes on Vernor, right by Patton Park, so I am quite interested in all things Detroit, and you have provided a wealth of knowledge to me that I could only have dreamed possible. I would wager to say that your experiences are not written in any book that I've ever read!

I am familiar, however, with the Schoolcraft and Wyoming connection, as some family lived there, too. Most, however, came from the Delray area, and the 60's white flight to the world beyond is a correct statement. jjaba tells the truth, as usual!

I can only imagine the world that you speak of in my mind's eye, but you make it very tangible with your knowledge. I only hope to "help" the next generation as you do, and hearing it from my elders(just as with grandpa and his constant lectures about being Armenian!) is the way that I'm used to! Please keep it up, you are a blessing to me!

Shod shonora gollem(Thank you very much!)
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Farrer
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Username: Farrer

Post Number: 604
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Catskills of the Midwest".....kind of a dated link to a South Haven historical society event but links to pics and mini-bios of some of the old resorts.

http://www.historyofsouthhaven .org/arc-catskills.html
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5201
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 3:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Farrer, excellent link to the past in South Haven. The architecture of old large homes built by others and bought by Jews later and the ties to the Hebrew Agricultural Movement are mentioned.
That movement was advertised in the Russian Empire as an opportunity to acquire American land and be farmers. Farming land in Western Michigan ended up being too difficult for there hardy pioneers who quickly became more urbanized if you can call Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, and Benton Harbor urban.

The term Borscht Belt or Catskills of the Midwest was applied to such Jewish resorts although Catskills are mtns., hardly evident on the Shores of Lake Michigan.

No, jjaba has not published a book on Jews in Detroit, but thanks for the props.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5209
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Plymouthres, here's some stuff about jjaba and the MESC. jjaba lived next door to S. Martin Taylor when Marty was at Western Michigan Univ.
We got way back to early 1960s.

In 1964, jjaba was involved with the busting of the MESC barber shop there in the lobby of the Woodward and Grand Blvd. Building, previously a Ford Motor Co. building.

In 1964, the white barber there didn't cut the hair of black people. As a test by Detroit CORE (Congress of Racial Equality), jjaba got his hair cut there while a blind black member walked in for a haircut. He was refused, complained, sat down until another white guy was served and walked out. Then another white guy member had his haircut.

Then, the 3 of us in this "sandwich" test case, had coffee nearby and recorded everything. We filed charges with everybody and everyone and the barber quickly closed up and left. He had more court dates, hearings, govt. inspectors and detectors, protectors and disinfectors than any barbershop ever saw in our lifetime.

jjaba is proud to have made such changes in public accomodations. Imagine not being able to walk into any barbershop in Detroit and get a damn haircut.

jjaba, Proudly Westside.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5356
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone have any census data on how many Jews lived in Detroit between any of the decades of the 20's and 50's?
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Gibran
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Username: Gibran

Post Number: 189
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba nice work...your dedication for equality is great,
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Arc312
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Username: Arc312

Post Number: 35
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba,

Can you tell me more about Jewish farming in Michigan (or the US)?

And what about Grand haven?

I've read the thread (and many other like it on this forum) but my question still lies in WHY do Jews in Detroit continue to migrate. Is it a desire for new? instances of racism? their own prejudices against other people in their communities? Home values, going up or down?

And does this pattern occur in other American Cities?

Someone please help me answer these questions!!

THANKS!
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Cmubryan
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Username: Cmubryan

Post Number: 423
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From what I've observed Jews move due to a combination of reasons. One reason is that as the children grow older, get married and then purchase homes, they are a lot of the time looking to purchase a brand new home in a new neighborhood. Often times that new neighborhood is in that area to the west or northwest.

Other reasons are because historically for whatever reason the African American community follows the Jewish community (Northwest Detroit, Oak Park, Southfield) this is another topic all together on why this happens but it does. Unfortunately, like it or not, this historically brings disinvestment in an area, higher crime rates and lower quality (or perceived lower quality) of schools.

My family moved out of Southfield in the early 1990s as the neighborhood went from a very Jewish neighborhood to a very African American neighborhood. We didn't move because we were racist or felt uncomfortable being the minority but because our home was burglarized twice and my parents wanted to send me to a public school district that had superior ratings and at that time Southfield wasn't getting the ratings that it did in the 1970s or 1980s.

Also, like any other ethnic group Jews want to be around other Jews and close to their family so if the majority of the family has moved on to the next neighborhood chances are the rest will follow.
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Arc312
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Username: Arc312

Post Number: 36
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, throughout thousands of years, it seems that due to different strains of anti-semitism (ancient, middle ages, hitler anti-semitism, the new middle east situational anti-semitism) Jews have remained more "clanned" than other groups.

But Cmubryan, from what you said I got to thinking. Do Jews move for new, and for top notch schools?

If so, does that mean that because many Jews have no issue selling homes to African Americans that the decreases in "perceived quality" in fact cause even more Jews and other whites to move due to the affects of hundreds of years of systematic oppression against African Americans?

That seems to make sense to me, and its a disgrace that those are the outcomes.

-Arc312, self-loathing Jew (for the moment)
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5210
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba would go along with the ideas of younger couples buying a new home for their generation.
Mostly helped by the parents, young couples can put money down on a new home. Hardly does this wandering community think of keeping the house for the next generation, and the parents moving out. Note also that when the Jews move, they sell the synagouges and build new in the next neighborhood.

Acculturated Jews move each generation and hardly ever are more than 50% of any neighborhood. Segregated Jews who wish a strictly Jewish neighborhood like N. Oak Park (Mich.) tend to stay put longer and create their own "shtetl" which is how we got the word, ghetto. Oak Park has seen Blacks move in, Arabs move in, and yet the Jewish population there is mutli-generations since the 1950s when Oak Park was new and very Jewish. These Jews are Orthodox, and walk to shul on shabbos, have their own parochial schools, the Mikva, a JCC, an old folks home, burial society, and even a Hebrew Theological College. Most importantly, they don't move between generations.

With the recently move from Southfield, Mich. the families matured out and with empty nesters, they gave the signal to sell. Jews sell to whomever without prejudice. And yes, that means Black people come behind them in Detroit. No, this pattern is not necessarily replicated in other cities.

jjaba has lived in Chicago and saw the same invasion and succession of Blacks in Jewish Southside and Jewish Westside neighborhoods.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor.
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Larry
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Username: Larry

Post Number: 145
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba

I assume you're referring to South Shore in Chicago, which was a strange mix of lace curtain Irish, Jews, and Swedes on the southern border. South Shore once had 10 synagogues in an area a mile and a half by a mile to a mile and a half. Most are still standing and have been black churches for over 30 years. Surprisingly though, yuppies are moving into the east end of South Shore, attracted by the nice homes and the lakefront, so who knows, there could be a temple there again in the next 5-10 years.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5214
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Larry, thanks for the update on South Shore in Chicago. Jews lived in Hyde Park, South Shore, South Chicago, Jackson Park, and Washington Park, Woodlawn, and Englewood. There was a congregation in Beverly Hills too.

A lot of the successful German Jews moved South along the lakeshore in the 1920s.

jjaba lived in South Shore in the 1960s and rode the IC South Chicago line to work in the Loop.

When your yuppies arrive, perhaps 71st street will return to retail as it was in the heyday, along with 63rd st., both really in terrible shape now.

jjaba.
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Larry
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Username: Larry

Post Number: 146
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba

You left out Kenwood, which is immediately north of Hyde Park. It's still a beautiful area, so long as your south of 47th, and it has a fairly old synagogue still in operation, just off 51st-St. Kenwood used to be home to Henry Horner, Julius Rosenwald,Mortimer Adler, Sol Goldberg, Modie Spiegel and Max Hart of Hart-Schaffner and Marx, just to name a few, not to mention Leopold-Loeb and Bobby Franks.

Englewood, where I was born, had 3 synagogues at one time.

Actually at one time, there was a significant German Jewish population, all the way south from Downtown between Michigan Avenue and the Lakefront.
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Jrvass
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Username: Jrvass

Post Number: 72
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting thread. Even though I am not Jewish.

When growing up in Birmingham (N. of 15 mile betw. Lahser & Cranbrook (Evergreen, for you southerners)), the square mile of land (to 16 mi.) was once owned by a Justin Bradway. As the story goes, his will stipulated that the land be sold by his heirs for development and that Jews could only live on a few of the streets in the NW corner of the square mile.

Street names like Ardmoor, Stuyvessant, Burning Bush were the street names that Jews lived on. David Tyner (son of Herb, I think he was invested with the Pistons with Bill Davidson at one time), Danny Aronoff (he owns some company, last time I read about him), and Michael Katz were some of my friends in elementary school.

Street names like Bradway, Tuckahoe, Glengary, Williamsbury, and Hamilton were reserved for the gentiles (Tim Allen (stage name), his name was Tim Dick then, lived at Bradway and Hamilton. I was friends with his younger step-brother Geoff Bones.)

(Yes... The Bones & Dicks got married! A source of endless teasing!)

When I was a young child, I found the Jewish traditions unusual. Now I find it's history interesting, and at times tragic.

That is why I've enjoyed this thread. Special thanks to Jjaba.

James
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Steve
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Username: Steve

Post Number: 78
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 1:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everything you ever wanted to know about Detroit's Jews can be found in "Echoes of Detroit's Jewish Communities" by Irwin J. Cohen, which is probably the book Crawford browsed when he started this thread.s

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