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Sharmaal
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Post Number: 1053
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070330/BIZ/7 03300363&theme=Metro-Detroit-R enaissance


Average income = 59k? That seems awful high to me, but if that is the sort of number that convinces Nino Salvaggio to open up Downtown I'll take it.
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Post Number: 218
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Average income of around 60k puts Downtown in line with a city like Plymouth. So make the jump and look at the retail the Plymouth has, then look at Downtown. You can see why more retail should be able to make it Downtown.
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Tetsua
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's about f*&#$in time retailers are starting to notice.
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Spitty
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Y'all can thank Superduperman and his large salary for all of the stores that come downtown in the next few years.
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Miketoronto
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

60K is a normal middle class wage. It is not surprising that the average person in downtown is making that, considering downtown has alot of good jobs.
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Chitaku
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

trader joes
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Danindc
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What are the "nearby adjacent" neighborhoods included in the study? The population number seems a little large to attribute it all to "downtown".

I also don't like the "average" income. Hell--between me, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffett, we average being multi-billionaires. Why didn't they use "median" income, which is more standard for these types of studies?

Intuitively, Detroit IS ripe for more retail. I wouldn't necessarily expect to see luxury retailers anytime soon, but even something like a full-service grocery store would be a huge improvement (although who wants a 125,000 sf grocery store in an urban neighborhood???).

I suppose I should read the study to find the methodology they used.
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Urbanize
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Post Number: 452
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm, they never said what grocer and when, did they?
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Eric
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a link to study on the front page
http://downtowndetroit.org
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Post Number: 219
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike Toronto,
This study does not show the wage of the average worker downtown, but rather the average resident downtown. Big difference. This means that there is a critical mass of enough money that does not leave the district a 5pm.
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Urbanize
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Post Number: 454
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would it matter how much retail downtown get. Think about it this way, would people shop at these establishments if they know they won't be well-mantained and have terrible service? I think Krogers pretty much proved that.
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Jt1
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When was Kroger downtown?

This study is great to hear but teh population and money is meaningless if the residents in the area don't support the stores. Beyond 1-2 places most of the retail establishments I go into are extremely slow and I rarely run in to other residents of the area I know.

Our retail options in the immediate area are pretty poor but we need to support what currently exists if we honestly believe that we should have more retail.
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Urbanize
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Post Number: 456
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"When was Kroger downtown?"

In general, I meant the 7 Mile and Gratiot location. We always somehow find awful service at chain lcoations in the city for some reason yet the further we go out, the better the service is. The businesses already downtown aren't what you would consider "top notch" in service and maintenance anyway.

MAybe it is just me though.
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Detroitbill
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those of us who have lived downtown for a long time and those who now do, It has never made sense to us that more retail isn't here because there are lots of us with good incomes around let alone workers and visitors for events. A good friend of mine who was a market researcher in Birmingham used to constantly tell me there wasn't, He wasnt even aware of my own neighborhood, nor others when I mentioned their names to him ,nor did he care to find out,which I used to find amusing. If good retail was strategically located and maintained, it would do just fine now. A place like Howell has more than we do
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Jt1
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree urbanize. The point of the study was to concentrate more on the downtown and surrounding areas. I do feel that the service in chains is getting better in the city.

I think some of it comes down to who manages the store and the pool of candidates that they get for employees. The few chain places I go I have been pretty happy with the service but I tend to stay to mom and pop places.
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 566
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"For those of us who have lived downtown for a long time and those who now do, It has never made sense to us that more retail isn't here because there are lots of us with good incomes around let alone workers and visitors for events."

Not only there but other parts of the city as well. It's fairly blatant to anyone who has lived in the city over the past 20 years that those market researchers just wrote Detroit off as a whole without doing much investigation. The corridor along the Southfield Fwy from Schoolcraft to 7 Mile could probably support several big chain grocery stores. Yet the only ones that would give that area the time of day were Farmer Jack's and that Foodland. When Farmer Jack's folded the only thing left was Foodland.

The same could be said for other parts of the city, I know.
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Jerome81
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, why not open something? I understand the difficulty in opening something like a large grocery store, but it seems that things might also be ripe for little niche places. Cool little burger joint, some type of neat retail. Electronics?

I have no idea what it takes to do something like this, but maybe somebody here has a great idea and wants to put in the effort. You might be handsomely rewarded....

As an aside, it is very interesting to me that for what was so long the worst place to invest (Detroit) is suddenly one of the only places in the entire metro region that seems to be going strong and bringing in investment. Housing, at least in the core, seems to be doing well too. Odd, huh?
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Pete
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the journalistic integrity of the Detroit News:

The picture of those North Oakland County hipsters that ran with the article is a rerun from sometime last year on an article about the Ellington. It definitely was not taken recently, considering two of them are in shorts and they are all in short sleeve shirts.

For some reason, that's just really annoying.
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Crew
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hamburger Mary's in midtown anyone?

http://www.hamburgermarys.net/ 0406/home.htm
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Jonnyfive
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I actually didnt notice the shorts but was looking at the inside of the storefront that appeared empty. They've been occupied for months. If those four guys are moving in or have moved in there from the suburbs, the picture is still pretty relevant.
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 567
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The picture of those North Oakland County hipsters that ran with the article is a rerun from sometime last year on an article about the Ellington. It definitely was not taken recently, considering two of them are in shorts and they are all in short sleeve shirts.

For some reason, that's just really annoying."

LOL.

Well at least the caption was honest...
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Jt1
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are willing to buy a home and invest in the city, probably have a decent amount of disposable income, may be college educated. Yep, those are the people that we need to keep out of Detroit.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This has the potential to be an important thing. How many times in conversation with people or even on this message board have you heard someone say, "why would you move downtown? A lot of places shut down at night and you have to drive to the suburbs to find a grocery store."

Convincing more retail (especially a grocery store) to come into the downtown area would go a long way towards convincing some of the fencesitters to make their own investment in downtown.
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Sharmaal
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At least one of those folks has been living in his unit for months now.



Take a look at who wrote the article.
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Artistic
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crew....I love Hamburger Marys. I use to go to the one in Ft Lauderdale a lot. It closed because of there high franchise fees.
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Norwalk
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Post Number: 40
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't hold your breath for a National Retailer to locate downtown. You need the small independent stores to open first. I live in Hamtramck where the income is a 3rd of what it is downtown and I am 2 or 3 blocks away in every direction from independent grocers, clothing stores, restaurants dollars stores you name it.
I've always said the first person to open downtown a small grocery store such as the ones we have here in Hamtramck would have a gold mine.
Are the storefront rents to high? I cant believe that no one has opened one.
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Detroitduo
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hamburger Marys is fantastic. We used to go to the one in Ft. Laud and in New Orleans every time we visited.

Actually, after having done one franchise in my life, I will never do another one, but something LIKE H. Marys would be even BETTER!
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the population stats really are like that down there then I wouldn't be surprised to see a Whole Foods-esque type of establishment in the area in the next couple of years.
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Gistok
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was gonna ask how the hell do you folks know that that picture wasn't taken this past balmy Monday or Tuesday... but then there's that damn tree in the picture.... :-)

Seriously, I think a Whole Foods store (the ones that took over The Merchant of Vino stores) would do great downtown. They cater to that discriminating palate... the over $60K crowd.
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Dialh4hipster
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Hamburger Mary's would be a fricken trip, although it'd probably end up in Ferndale, not Midtown!
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Dabirch
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Went to Hamburger Mary's for lunch yesterday.

Didn't know what it was when I got there, but slowly figured it out.

I am pretty quick like that.
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Danny
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

White folks are coming back to Detroit just as the Ghettoman predicted.

YAY Detroit
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 458
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Same thing happeing in Atlanta, just at different paces. Ours is MUCH slower while there's is happening before a blink of the eye.
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Supergay
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Went to Hamburger Mary's for lunch yesterday.

Didn't know what it was when I got there, but slowly figured it out.

I am pretty quick like that.



You strike me as the kind of guy who would walk into a bar called the Manhole and not know it was gay until you saw the bartender wearing a t-shirt that said "I can't even think straight."
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Detroiternthemist
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Username: Detroiternthemist

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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you build it they will come. Folks need other reasons for coming downtown.
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me ask the question this way:

What happens if store(s) were built at the NW corner of Woodward and 75?

Would that not serve the downtown and midtown populations?

Draw a say 2 mile radius from that locale and one gets a lot of population from downtown to the WSU residential population.
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Yelloweyes
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Username: Yelloweyes

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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "What happens if store(s) were built at the NW corner of Woodward and 75?"

It would help...but you have to talk Berry into it.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I also don't like the "average" income. Hell--between me, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffett, we average being multi-billionaires. Why didn't they use "median" income, which is more standard for these types of studies?


The study, if I recall correctly, did use median income. Reporters, however, are notorious for assuming that "mean", "median" and "mode" all are synonymous with "average".
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Craig
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Post Number: 137
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My guess is that potential merchants face a tough set of choices re: coming downtown. Newcomers may be attractive customers, but the fact is that there is a huge amount of... I'm trying not to say riff raff or lumpen proletariate, but I'm at a loss for words.

I'm downtown a lot, and there are plenty of street people. Who are they? I don't know, but people that pan handle and walk around yelling and drunk will probably be a problem for new merchants (any current merchants should weigh in here). These people get in the way and pester the patrons and restaurant people that I've seen downtown after five. Everyone's money is green, I know, but if the street people had money of their own they wouldn't be hitting up on people like me (sure don't look rich).

Then there's the problem of theft... Help me out here, but what was the resolution of the case where a woman had a seizure and died at the hands of Rite Aid security guards while attempting to shoplift? I recall Fieger got in on that and was talking in terms of mega-millions. If I were a merchant and I wanted to sell stuff, not protect it from vagrants and then defend myself from lawsuits I'd set up in the quietest, most boring suburb that I could find. I'm just some guy, but I have to believe that the big chains know more about the inner workings of our communities than do we, and so if they can make a mint without getting their asses hauled in to court then they'll show up with tools and will build.

To my knowledge merchants were never outlawed, but most of them left. I think that it's simple cost-benefit analysis that keeps them in gated areas like Harbor Town or locked inside of Compuware. Where I grew up in Detroit the nice and easy-going merchants got the hell out on the heels of theft, robberies, assault, stolen vehicles, etc. The middle eastern merchants took over, and nobody liked them because of their prices, they're rude, stores have crap, etc. But who else but an immigrant from the third world would look at the business environment in many places in this community and think "opportunity!"?

When I get out of work late I'll hit downtown and Lafayette for food. Usually it's just me and the bums, and the counter guys are chasing the bums away. If I were a merchant I'd like to see more than just me (who's been called a Detroit-hater) and drunk hobos walking around. And as me, the "Detroit-hater," I'd like to see some of the new residents and the rah-rah squad eating in the restaurants and sharing the sidewalks with me.
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Craig
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Post Number: 139
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Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My guess is that potential merchants face a tough set of choices re: coming downtown. Newcomers may be attractive customers, but the fact is that there is a huge amount of... I'm trying not to say riff raff or lumpen proletariate, but I'm at a loss for words.

I'm downtown a lot, and there are plenty of street people. Who are they? I don't know, but people that pan handle and walk around yelling and drunk will probably be a problem for new merchants (any current merchants should weigh in here). These people get in the way and pester the patrons and restaurant people that I've seen downtown after five. Everyone's money is green, I know, but if the street people had money of their own they wouldn't be hitting up on people like me (sure don't look rich).

Then there's the problem of theft... Help me out here, but what was the resolution of the case where a woman had a seizure and died at the hands of Rite Aid security guards while attempting to shoplift? I recall Fieger got in on that and was talking in terms of mega-millions. If I were a merchant and I wanted to sell stuff, not protect it from vagrants and then defend myself from lawsuits I'd set up in the quietest, most boring suburb that I could find. I'm just some guy, but I have to believe that the big chains know more about the inner workings of our communities than do we, and so if they can make a mint without getting their asses hauled in to court then they'll show up with tools and will build.

To my knowledge merchants were never outlawed, but most of them left. I think that it's simple cost-benefit analysis that keeps them in gated areas like Harbor Town or locked inside of Compuware. Where I grew up in Detroit the nice and easy-going merchants got the hell out on the heels of theft, robberies, assault, stolen vehicles, etc. The middle eastern merchants took over, and nobody liked them because of their prices, they're rude, stores have crap, etc. But who else but an immigrant from the third world would look at the business environment in many places in this community and think "opportunity!"?

When I get out of work late I'll hit downtown and Lafayette for food. Usually it's just me and the bums, and the counter guys are chasing the bums away. If I were a merchant I'd like to see more than just me (who's been called a Detroit-hater) and drunk hobos walking around. And as me, the "Detroit-hater," I'd like to see some of the new residents and the rah-rah squad eating in the restaurants and sharing the sidewalks with me.
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Superduperman
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Post Number: 250
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Spitty but I can only do so much,I'm just one person,I spend alot of my money on downtown businesses when possible,I get alot of shoes from the JB's/Niketown and I frequent the woodhouse spa and utilize all the services the offer men,I'm at quiznos about 4 times a week and I'm on my third loft,I used to live in woodward center then merchants row now I live above small plates. Sadly I'm moving down south next month,Detroit has used me up and I can give no more......Atlanta here I come!!!
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 506
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, leave Detroit just to go for the Detroit of the south. That's seems beautiful.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8793
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 4:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

My guess is that potential merchants face a tough set of choices re: coming downtown. Newcomers may be attractive customers, but the fact is that there is a huge amount of... I'm trying not to say riff raff or lumpen proletariate, but I'm at a loss for words.

I'm downtown a lot, and there are plenty of street people. Who are they? I don't know, but people that pan handle and walk around yelling and drunk will probably be a problem for new merchants (any current merchants should weigh in here). These people get in the way and pester the patrons and restaurant people that I've seen downtown after five. Everyone's money is green, I know, but if the street people had money of their own they wouldn't be hitting up on people like me (sure don't look rich).

Then there's the problem of theft... Help me out here, but what was the resolution of the case where a woman had a seizure and died at the hands of Rite Aid security guards while attempting to shoplift? I recall Fieger got in on that and was talking in terms of mega-millions. If I were a merchant and I wanted to sell stuff, not protect it from vagrants and then defend myself from lawsuits I'd set up in the quietest, most boring suburb that I could find. I'm just some guy, but I have to believe that the big chains know more about the inner workings of our communities than do we, and so if they can make a mint without getting their asses hauled in to court then they'll show up with tools and will build.

To my knowledge merchants were never outlawed, but most of them left. I think that it's simple cost-benefit analysis that keeps them in gated areas like Harbor Town or locked inside of Compuware. Where I grew up in Detroit the nice and easy-going merchants got the hell out on the heels of theft, robberies, assault, stolen vehicles, etc. The middle eastern merchants took over, and nobody liked them because of their prices, they're rude, stores have crap, etc. But who else but an immigrant from the third world would look at the business environment in many places in this community and think "opportunity!"?

When I get out of work late I'll hit downtown and Lafayette for food. Usually it's just me and the bums, and the counter guys are chasing the bums away. If I were a merchant I'd like to see more than just me (who's been called a Detroit-hater) and drunk hobos walking around. And as me, the "Detroit-hater," I'd like to see some of the new residents and the rah-rah squad eating in the restaurants and sharing the sidewalks with me.



I can assure you that myself, my wife, my family and my friends are not riff-raff. I suspect that you are only looking to support your beliefs because I rarely see only bums outside.

I can't help but think of all the times people drive past many professional black people then stop and ask me for directions.

I find your perspective either biased or fantasized.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 510
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I can't help but think of all the times people drive past many professional black people then stop and ask me for directions."

Wow, that is biased.
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 112
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmmm 2007 /2008 offers a different experience for potential retail.downtown unpresidented foot traffic along wit midtowns amazing growth is proof of that
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Craig
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Post Number: 142
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1 - I didn't say that you or anyone else on this site is a bum. I did say that I don't see many, if any, of the flood of monied new residents in CBD. I don't live in CBD, but many evenings I am down there, working late, and when I'm done and on the street (anywhere from seven to 11 PM) I see scant evidence of the sort of residents who would keep "regular" businesses open. Bums, raggedy people with shopping carts, pan-handlers I see everywhere. CVS, a spot that I'd take to be the canary in the coal mine for a large community of residents with money, closes at seven! Either they're shutting down for want of customers or because they feel that they'll simply be an impromptu warming center and shoplifting opportunity for the homeless.

I invite you and other doubters to repeat my observational research: wander on and near Woodward after hours and note the ratio of professionals, hipsters, and who you believe the new residents to be to everyone else. Again, I'm not a merchant, but if I were I would not see what I see and then think "I can make some money down here." Plasma donor center maybe, but grocery store or coffee house...? God no.

Jt1 - one bit of speculation. I'm guessing that you must live in one of the upscale enclaves in the City where life has not completely gone to pieces. To help you to understand my perspective I'll direct you to the streets just north of Fenkell in Brightmoor for insight into my view of the future of Detroit. For almost my entire time "there" the neighborhood was almost completely black (which I'm not), but that isn't my point. My point is that in my lifetime the area went from one of home owners respectful of one another and the community to a hell of the sort described elsewhere. A memorable conversation with one of our last "old" neighbors as we packed to move... said "Lou," a black man and tool-maker at GM: "we've gotta get outta here, too."
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Miketoronto
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Post Number: 513
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To be honest, I find it hard to believe that with the amount of downtown workers there are, that there are not more stores.

You have over 80,000 a day in downtown for work. That does not count people coming in for other things.

That is alot of people, and in other cities worker populations like that, support many retail business.

I totally believe that just with the worker population alone, Downtown could support alot of retail, if retail would just give downtown a chance again.
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Jjw
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Post Number: 284
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At this point, downtown Detroit does not have what many merchants want--a consistent customer base. It is still deserted at night when compared to other cities that do have significant retail. Even during the day, I never saw much foot traffic unless a special event was occurring in the area. Sad to say, I think it will take at least 5 or more years to see retail returning on a significant scale to the city and that is only if the progress the city is now experiencing continues on the scale it has been doing.
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Miketoronto
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Post Number: 514
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Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So what if it is quiet after 6PM?????
There are tons of retail stores under the office towers in Toronto for example that close at 5PM.

Its o.k. for business to just open during business hours as a start. Then as traffic builds up, hours will extend.

In many world cities, stores close at 5-6PM anyway. Go to Australia. Even in the burbs, the malls close at 6PM.

So the fact that places won't stay open till 9PM I don't think is an issue.
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Jjw
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 5:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are right Miketornonto. I agree with you. But, at this time, I don't think Detroit has the kind of foot traffic even during the day to have successful retail in a large scale. I guess I should have tried to make my last post clearer. And yes, I do think the downtown area can support some additional retail at this time; retail that meets the needs of the business and current residential population.
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 113
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

making the right retail choices is key. We been out of commission so long, we are not sure what type of businesses are needed an d we are starting from scratch so the basics need to be in place 1st. So lets start here. Next to CVS will be some kinda gourmet Salad bowl, specializing in a huge variety of meat n veggie salads. My vote; perfect. Mark England's previous location compared to the few other clothing stores was too isolated. They claim to be moving furthur north on Woodward, probably close the studio catour and Woodbridge spa. Better balanced prices would also help. A McDonalds and Kentucky Fried chicken right in the CBD is still needed.Mezzanine, a trendy furniture store is comming to harmony park. Asian village will fill the Asian cuisine void. Jamba juice would do great in CBD. They make fresh blended fruit an veggie drinks. This could go near Campuware. More restaurants with sidewalk dining options can surround cvs campus m. Ernest n Young will house probably a seafood and or steakhouse.A good drycleaners would be nice for Capital park
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Downtown_remix
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 8:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would also convert club blue into Model T cafe. with booths resembling Model T cars.Pure Detroit store would move to woodward in plain view instead of its fort street location.
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Jt1
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Jt1 - one bit of speculation. I'm guessing that you must live in one of the upscale enclaves in the City where life has not completely gone to pieces. To help you to understand my perspective I'll direct you to the streets just north of Fenkell in Brightmoor for insight into my view of the future of Detroit. For almost my entire time "there" the neighborhood was almost completely black (which I'm not), but that isn't my point. My point is that in my lifetime the area went from one of home owners respectful of one another and the community to a hell of the sort described elsewhere.



Two points:

1. Yes, I currently live in a decent area but have lived in multiple parts of the city including one of the worst areas. Your assumption is correct for right now but I have lived in the worst as well.

2. We see completely different. You chose to look at one of the worst neighborhoods of Detroit and see that as its future. I look at the improvements being made in the city and see that as the future. Maybe I am too optimistic or you are too pessimistic but we look at the same city and see vastly different things. I guess only time will tell which of us is correct.

I ask a question of you:If you see Brightmoor as the future of Detroit why even waste your time doing anything in or for the city or posting here for that matter?
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Miketoronto
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no doubt as to there being a critcal enough mass for more stores as I said.

Downtown Buffalo, Rochester, and many other smaller downtowns even have more stores then downtown Detroit. And those cities only empoly like 50,000 people downtown.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was in H&M in Harlem this past Saturday and it was packed. If they can support and H&M in Harlem then they can support one in downtown Detroit.
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How's the Borders doing in the Compuware Bldg?? Seems to be doing well. I think you need more chance takers to get things rolling.
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Jt1
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Seems to be doing well. I think you need more chance takers to get things rolling.



I think that is why we need more local, independent stores. Local stores are typically more willing to take chances and will do soif they believe in an area. National chains typically do not look so much at potential in an area but the reality at that moment. From a business standpoint you certainly can't blame them.

Now the rent prices some of our landlords charge need to become a little more realistic.

I believe that Borders is in the Compuware building due to Peter Karmanos and probably some favorable lease rates. i doubt that Borders was knocking down anyone's door to open downtown. I suspect that they are now happy they did but I have never seen numbers for the store.
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bring on the bodegas!
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Detroitrulez
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

don't hold your breath waiting for Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Fresh Market or the like. The demographics don't meet their criteria...keep in mind its not just average income in a core section of downtown. Also has to do with the quality of the area schools, education levels etc. (they have to hire staff). The long death spiral of the Detroit Public Schools is not something that companies like Whole Foods find encouraging when looking to open new stores... not gonna happen...no way no how.
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Huh? Schools don't have anything to do with it. How many other large cities have terrific school systems, yet manage to have more retail than Detroit? A "need" for educated staff? You've never been in a store where the employees barely speak English, have you?

At the end of the day, developers and real estate brokers--people that study the local market--are going to determine actual tenants. It's probably more instructive for residents to assess their general needs, i.e. drugstores, dry cleaners, etc, rather than try to write business plans (unless they're going to open their own place, of course).
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 222
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are the requirements for Whole Foods to even consider a site. This is straight from thier website:

If you have a retail location you think would make a good site for Whole Foods Market, Inc., please review the following guidelines carefully for consideration:

* 200,000 people or more in a 20 minute drive time
* 40,000–75,000 Square Feet
* Large number of college-educated residents
* Abundant parking available for our exclusive use
* Stand alone preferred, would consider complementary
* Easy access from roadways, lighted intersection
* Excellent visibility, directly off of the street
* Must be located in a high traffic area (foot and/or vehicle)
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the exception of parking, a downtown location would seem appropriate.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 575
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"* Abundant parking available for our exclusive use"

I know this one is negotiable.

I'm sure they don't use the same metrics when deciding on an urban location.

(Message edited by iheartthed on April 02, 2007)
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2277
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I know this one is negotiable.

I'm sure they don't use the same metrics when deciding on an urban location.



You are correct. All of the Whole Foods, like all other grocery stores, in this (DC) area have their own on-site parking. The Whole Foods locations in the District have their own parking garages (expensive). I know one in Arlington has its own surface lot, and contracts with a private garage across the street to offer validated parking. Grocery stores are, for better or for worse, always going to need on-site parking.

I wish I could give you counts of parking spots at these stores, and relate them to suburban stores, but I don't have that info. I can say anecdotally, though, that a lot more people in the city walk or take transit to the grocery store, especially if a subway station is nearby.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 516
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You don't have to worry about parking. People walk in downtown. An office worker will just walk to the store. No need to drive from the office building to a store two blocks away.

Detroit has tons of parking anyway.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8800
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You don't have to worry about parking. People walk in downtown. An office worker will just walk to the store.



In all cities except Detroit. People in SE Michigan seem to think walking will hurt them.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2239
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ann Arbor whole foods does not have dedicated parking. I would debate whether there are 200,000 people within twenty minutes.Access is a pain in the rear
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2278
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

In all cities except Detroit. People in SE Michigan seem to think walking will hurt them.



You can't change that by encouraging the status quo. Once some of those empty lots get built upon, more people will walk. It's really quite amazing how it works.
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Jt1
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beside your condescending last sentence I agree to some extent. I think that the mentality here is so ingrained with the idea of driving everywhere it will take a long time to change.

The attitude of downtown/midtown residents will change first but the office population isn't going to change overnight.
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^I wasn't trying to be condescending. Honest.

The mindset isn't really so ingrained as you might think--it's merely a product of the physical environment. It really is quite fascinating to watch more walking behavior take root as the physical environment is altered into more high-density usage.

Plenty of Michiganders walk when they come to DC on vacation--especially once they realize they won't find a parking spot at the front door of the place they're going.
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Jt1
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would love to see the change and hope that I am very, very wrong in this regard.

As someone who walks to as many place as possible I would love it.
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1782
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You don't have to worry about parking. People walk in downtown. An office worker will just walk to the store. No need to drive from the office building to a store two blocks away.



Also, I would guess they would be counting on residents of Corktown, Midtown, Woodbridge, etc., etc. who don't work downtown. These people will not want to carry groceries two blocks in the pouring rain to get to a garage they have to pay for...
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I would love to see the change and hope that I am very, very wrong in this regard.

As someone who walks to as many place as possible I would love it.



You and I are in the same boat.
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Jt1
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would guess that the people in those neighborhoods would be big supporters of it.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 147
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1 - I have three generations of my people buried in the ground at Grandlawn. I, and people like me, are bound to the City, and so I care.

I just wrote and deleted some thoughts re: brave little enclaves of affluence and good behavior standing against the poverty and bad behavior of the ruins of places like my old 'hood. No need to stir you up today - I'm going to head over to Comerica and try to catch a few innings through the fence and a beer. That, I believe, is what really motivates me: the desire to restore this damn city to one where everyone has the money in their pocket for a game and a hotdog, not just me in the 'burbs and you in your nice City neighborhood.

You and I will likely never agree re: human nature and solutions, but safe to say that we'd rather sneer at one another with the knowledge that the people in our respective philosophical camps are fully employed?

Maybe I'll see you at the game.
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Detroitrulez
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey danindc...put down the crack pipe or whatever else you're smoking. While you may not find the criteria on the website, I can tell you from first hand knowledge that Detroit's crumbling and decrepit school system is a MAJOR factor in Whole Foods' assessment of the viability of locating in Detroit. This is in addition to the education level of a large number of residents in the surrounding community. It may not be that way in every city in which they choose to locate, but it is there.

Looking forward to your walk from woodward and jefferson to orchard lake and maple....
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Miketoronto
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who needs Whole Foods anyway, when you got Eastern Market?? Believe me Whole Foods is not some must have for every city. Focus on your unique stuff.

That being said, I noticed you guys mentioned the neighbourhoods just outside downtown like Corktown.

Something has to be done transit wise between downtown and these surrounding hoods. There has to be some sort of high frequency bus service every 15min or less on designated routes that people in these hoods will try using. Because as it stands now, people don't really use the DDOT buses that pass by every 20-30min or so.

There has to be some marketed inner city loop service, or something connecting all these hoods with downtown. Then the parking issue for retail is not really there.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 2018
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Ann Arbor whole foods does not have dedicated parking. I would debate whether there are 200,000 people within twenty minutes.Access is a pain in the rear



No dedicated parking? What do you call that sea of a parking lot just outside its door?

The fact of the matter is that grocery stores like Whole Foods in every urban area I'VE been to, with maybe the exception of NYC, have dedicated parking. Chicago, LA, San Francisco, DC, Boston, etc.

But the other thing people are forgetting is that in all these cities the Whole Foods is not located in a downtown setting, but rather in urban neighborhoods. Downtown is good for a small specialty grocer, but not a big grocery store.

And no one carries their groceries more than a few blocks unless they are some kind of zealot. Be reasonable.
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Miketoronto
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Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course they are in a downtown setting. The Whole Foods in Toronto is in downtown. And ontop of that, we have supermarkets all over downtown, in the base of buildings. This is in addition to the farmers markets, and the Kengsington Market.

Supermarkets can so be downtown.
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Dialh4hipster
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, whatever, you're right.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supermarkets can so be downtown.

Yeah in cities with mass transit. We don't have that luxury, the best we could hope for the to locate in Midtown or any other neighborhood around where there's enough land for parking.
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Corktownmark
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikein Toronto your idea for a transit loop between the adjacent neighborhoods and downtown on 10 or 15 minute schedule might expand the potential market for … a market to Corktown, Woodbridge and Midtown. The loop could also include Eastern Market. If the busses ran through the day and evening till 1 or 2 AM the restaurants, bars and entertainment venues would benefit too.
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Nainrouge
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Username: Nainrouge

Post Number: 179
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why focus on the attraction of national retailers? How about the development of locally owned businesses? How about food co-ops?
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 128
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WAYNE STATES gradual shift toward downtown, 1,200 new casino hotels, and a completed river walk will bring the businesses period. We should have filled storefronts by summer 2009
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Miketoronto
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Corktownmark, Indianapolis which probably has worse transit then Detroit, has two loops for the central inner city downtown area. Here is the info. I am sure a route like this in Detroit could work. Some info.
----
Details about the Blue Line Circulator:

Look for the special IndyGo Blue Line Free Downtown Circulator bus stop signs – they include the logo and a map of the circulator’s route.

Buses run from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m., 7-days a week.
The Blue Line runs every 10 minutes.

Click here for the map of the route.

http://www.indygo.net/images/b lueline-map-large2.gif


Downtown Convenience with the new Red Line!

Monday – Saturday · 7:00 a.m. – 10:00 p.m.

Connectivity:

Commute to work or school via IndyGo’s 28 fixed routes and use the convenience of the FREE Red Line to connect to the IUPUI Campus.
Use the Red Line to visit Downtown for lunch, dinner, meetings and entertainment. Hop on the Blue Line (via Ohio Street stops) to explore even more of the city.

Indiana Avenue District, Canal Walk access, Indianapolis City Market, Wholesale District, Indiana Government Center, Indiana History Center

Two shuttles operate on a 15-minute frequency

Click for route map

http://www.indygo.net/images/r edlinemap_large.gif


Click below for a quick ride on the shuttle. I think you guys will like this video. Just think if Detroit did this.

http://web.bsu.edu/capic/cultu ralindy/video/cdshopping.html


And this one talks more about the bus. Check it out

http://web.bsu.edu/capic/culturalindy/video/cdentertainment.html)

(Message edited by miketoronto on April 06, 2007)
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

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Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Why focus on the attraction of national retailers? How about the development of locally owned businesses? How about food co-ops?"

People love their well-known national places though. If that plan was a case, would these independant places in DD still be closing?
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Corktownmark
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for Indy info MikeToronto. These routes are small, frequent and FREE. Detroit could follow this model fairly cheaply. Then folks who work or live near downtown would have more easy choices for lunch, dinner and entertainment. Each area would benefit by making the whole more available. Private financing by the entertainment industry and downtown businesses might help make it work.
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Eastsidedame
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Post Number: 70
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 3:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whole Foods is not all it's cracked up to be. They're building one now, as we speak, in the last green space in Sugar Land, Texas where horses used to graze.

And there's a Target and a Anderson's that moved out down the street...the buildings are sitting there, empty.

Ironic, no?

All things considered, I'd rather have Eastern Market than the canned esoteric phony-baloney overpriced pretentious Whole Foods any day of the week.

In fact, the SL city council is exploring how to get a farmer's market going. They're using the Eastern Market as a model! How about that?

Don't be lemmings when it comes to retail...blaze your own trail.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

???? Are cities ACTUALLY copying off of us?
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 528
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Farmers Markets are so much better then a Whole Foods. I have a book about CITIES BACK FROM THE EDGE, and it talks about how farmers markets are major forces in reviving downtowns and drawing people in.

You guys got something good going there with the market, nuture it.
As much I love Chicago, I have to say the only thing that I found sad, is that they don't have markets like Eastern Market. The city dwellers just go to chain supermarkets.
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Eastsidedame
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Post Number: 72
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is that book this one, by Gratz & Mintz? Looks like it should be required reading for city planners.

http://www.amazon.com/Cities-B ack-Edge-Life-Downtown/dp/0471 361240/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-320 5073-1552667?ie=UTF8&s=books&q id=1175985179&sr=1-1
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 529
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is the book. Its great.

I know the problems with our cities had a lot to do with our decline in downtown retail. However the more I read, the more I think the retail business itself wanted to kill downtown.

I was just reading about the famous old department store that was in downtown Indianapolis untill like 1989 or something.

This lady chartered the whole history of the store, and even into the 1980's, the store was doing good business and had amazing selections.
However after May Company bought the store out, they started reducing the selection and special
traditions and floors. For example they god rid of the food hall which had items you could only find in that store, etc.
Anyway after they finnished downsizing everything and making the store no better then a suburban branch, then they decided to close due to low sales.

Is it any wonder sales go down, when you fully reduce a store to half its self, etc.

So sometimes I think corportations etc wanted downtown to fail.

A quote from the paper I read.

"May Company bought Ayres in the late 1980's and soon began making drastic changes in what the store offered. In time, entire departments were either contracted out to other entities or removed altogether. The beauty salon, for example, which boasted the best in hair, skin care, and total personal attention, was sold off to Glemby International. Disgruntled with the accent on impersonal customer relations and the ever-increasing attention to the bottom line, several long-time stylists left Ayres, taking their faithful (and wealthy) clients with them. The wine shop and bakery closed, the gourmet shop's extensive offerings diminished. The latter would close altogether, forcing loyal customers to search elsewhere for speciality food items. There was no more Santaland, train, or fantasy North Pole village.
The cruelest blow came in 1989 when May Company decided to close the famed, venerated Tea Room."


(Message edited by miketoronto on April 07, 2007)
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1172
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roberta Gratz does an excellent job conveying her thoughts.

If you liked her work look for William H Whyte's City. Both are on my shelf next to each other.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 82
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you! Excellent recommendations. Local enterprise is absolutely the way to go downtown. It's one of the things that made Detroit great in the past. And it can do it again in the future.
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 132
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A mix of intrnational merchants will fill up downtown detroit, along with yuppy coffee shops and furniture home good stores,(mezznine)
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Paulmcall
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Username: Paulmcall

Post Number: 82
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Comparing Toronto and Detroit is a big joke. Detroit
loses in just about every comparison.
Less safe, less clean, less mixed population and less educated.
Who in their right mind wants to pay higher insurance rates and lead a dubious crusade for a possible comeback and possible payoff?
Except for Roger Penske, who has gotten any results in cleaning up the town lately?

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