  Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1031 Registered: 09-2004 |
Amazed nobody posted this yet. http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0318/SUB/703160344&SearchID=73 275739022826 I like the response from Francis Grunow. I also have high hopes for the flame war to come. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1213 Registered: 01-2005 |
If Francis supports it I'm ok with it. Sounds like they have tried to save the interior...at least the exterior will remain the same. Sounds like the Illitches are trying? Three years ago it seems they would've just ripped it down. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2217 Registered: 10-2003 |
Facadeomy is better than outright demolition. At least preservation and restoration of the facade helps retain character. As far as the Ilitches and the City of Detroit are concerned, I'm impressed. | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 554 Registered: 01-2006 |
This has "empty facade sitting around for 4 years" written all over it. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2218 Registered: 10-2003 |
In my experience, anytime a demo like this is done, there is usually a plan in place to build behind the facade. The shoring and lateral bracing for the facade isn't cheap, and poses a hazard should it fall. There's a lot more risk letting a facade stand by itself than letting the building rot away. Besides, do you think a cheap-ass like Ilitch is going to pay an engineer to design the facade bracing, and a contractor to install it, if he doesn't have a way to make money off it? My question is, how much city subsidy is Ilitch seeking? | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 271 Registered: 10-2003 |
Who the *$%& does Francis think he is? He's not an architect! | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 115 Registered: 08-2006 |
I think this is what pretty much everyone was hoping for. I just hope that a development involving the Fine Arts includes the empty lot that sits between it and that Kales building. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 319 Registered: 03-2006 |
He will probably tear down the building and keep the facade with bracing that doesnt work properly, then OOPS the thing falls down. And he has gotten done what he really wants. | ||
Valkyrias Member Username: Valkyrias Post Number: 447 Registered: 02-2005 |
lol at detourdetroit  | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 126 Registered: 06-2005 |
Is this good bye to the Adams theater? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 914 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kenp's post has the best prediction. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 707 Registered: 10-2006 |
The red brick building for those outside the area: http://www.flickr.com/photos/s nweb/164699174/ Cool shot of the interior: http://www.flickr.com/photos/a llanm/34266634/ Apparently not much left on the inside otherwise: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7 0205638@N00/140133884/ | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 501 Registered: 03-2006 |
as long as they save the facade Im for it... I remember seeing a similar building in Chicago who's facade was saved and a large modern condo tower was built preserving the facade (a similar height ot the fine arts) of the small building at the base, it looked cool | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1627 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detourdetroit -- what's your point? I would expect an organization like Preservation Wayne to have an opinion on the matter, and it wasn't a particularly extreme opinion. Whether their director is an architect or not isn't that relevant. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1629 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hmm, re-reading again, I'm guessing you were being sarcastic... if so, nevermind. | ||
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73 Post Number: 212 Registered: 03-2006 |
I have a question for those on the forum who know how this type of thing works. When they talk about preserving the facade, does that mean all 4 walls, or just those that face the street? | ||
J_stone Member Username: J_stone Post Number: 359 Registered: 10-2003 |
That Grunow Kid...always spouting off to the press like the King Pontificator he is! | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 43 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hey i live in the area and if Illitch wants to invest more into grand circus park,then we autta support him. the Madison Theater went through the same thing. Lets give this trend a chance to work. The people of Detroit have lived through so many dissappointments,i understand why most people here have negative viewpoints on announced change,growth,innovation It hasn't existed here since the 40'sThe difference now is people with passion,money,an desire is doing the ground work on our current projects. Not like the half ass lil projects of the 80's an 90's | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 502 Registered: 03-2006 |
pretty sure its the decorative front to Adams...the other walls are pretty nondescript. I believe what you're decribing is called interior demolition | ||
Paulc Member Username: Paulc Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2005 |
I recall that facade-only preservation was a rather common occurance when I travelled to Memphis (Beale Street specifically). The demolition was primarily interior only with bracing to hold up the remaining facade. The results were nice in keeping up the continuity of the period buildings and also served as some excellent space for courtyard performances, makeshift bars, etc. I'm all for it - if done right with reverance to the original facade work. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2173 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: You mean like the millender center? Harbor town? Riverfront Apts? Stroh's River Place? The Omni (or whatever it was originally)? Comerica Tower? The Madden Building? Ren Cen Phase II towers? Trapper's Alley? The Fox Renovation? Cobo expansion? There was a lot going on in the 80's (early 90's). They were all big projects. They silver bullet theory of big projects did not work. It is the "lil half assed" projects that hopefully will make the difference. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2220 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Facadeomy has been a very common practice in DC the past 10 years or so, as the downtown has been built up with new condo and office buildings behind existing storefronts. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to your question. Most of the buildings we have here abut each other on the sides, so there is typically only one (or two, if on a corner) face of the building exposed to the street. In reality, I think the front of the building is what matters the most. The sides can be nondescript if they are largely hidden from view. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1544 Registered: 11-2003 |
Think Mid Med Lofts. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 45 Registered: 03-2007 |
Madden, who can get in there,,, its a nice building but designed to keep people out. same as comerica tower,Ren cen phase ii towers,a few parking structures with no ground floor retail,Trappers's alley, coulda been a good idea, but was created to confuse, and gives security plenty time to kick out un desirables b4 they get in too good.Hart Plaza sucks too | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2175 Registered: 06-2004 |
My point was that grandiose projects have been happening around here for a long time. Like them or not, the were not "lil" nor were they "half-assed" | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 46 Registered: 03-2007 |
POINT TAKEN.THIS BUILDING CAN TURN OUT TO BE DOWNTOWNS 1ST "COOL" 24HR RESTUARANT THAT SERVE BREAKFAST ALL DAY,AND MASH POTATO AN STEAK AT 3AM, AFTER DA CLUB. | ||
Jonnyfive Member Username: Jonnyfive Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2007 |
Are you screaming? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8615 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Isn't that Plaka's? | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 47 Registered: 03-2007 |
I said 1st "cool" 24hr restaurant. Like Mel's Diner in hollywood.It might work out as Detroit's Motown Cafe That exists everywhere but motown.Motown sounds could blare over the Park with Detroit's Motown walk of fame surrounding the park. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 745 Registered: 11-2003 |
The Fine Arts building and the attached theater could be restored but only at cost that is not even close to being feasible for the Detroit market. Facadectomy's are usually not that desireable of an outcome, but in this case it's a positive result. The massive damage suffered by the Fine Arts/Adams was caused almost exclusively by failed roof systems. Consider this, in the FIRST WEEK of the upcoming baseball season, Mr. Ilitch will pay Magglio Ordonez more than it would have cost to properly maintain the roof systems on the Fine Arts, Adams and Madison-Lenox buildings. Shameful doesn't begin to describe the Ilitch stewardship of these buildings. Let's not even mention the intentional neglect of the United Artists. His record speaks very loudly. I wonder how PW's director was able to bite his tongue when dealing with this matter. Even if Mr. Ilitch actually restores the Detroit Life, Fine Arts/Adams site, and the GAR, it will merely be just a good start on the road to redemption. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3253 Registered: 10-2003 |
Saving the facade is better than nothing... Perhaps they could build an ultramodern building inside the shell, like what they did with the old Securitate HQ in Bucharest... | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 51 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: Speaking of projects, Dabirch, what's happened to that other cyberspace art project? Has it pulled a Ya Mar? | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 1056 Registered: 08-2006 |
They're going to save the facade right? I love the front of that building. I'd buy a loft there. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 484 Registered: 11-2005 |
I said 1st "cool" 24hr restaurant. Like Mel's Diner in hollywood.It might work out as Detroit's Motown Cafe That exists everywhere but motown.Motown sounds could blare over the Park with Detroit's Motown walk of fame surrounding the park. Actually... that sounds like a really cool idea. There was a place like this when I lived in Seattle, Cafe Minnie's. It wasn't even near bars but was packed at 3 a.m. 'course having great food helped. With Cliff Bell's and company over there, it would work. And the Motown Walk of Fame is neat, even though it's nowhere near Hitsville. | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 700 Registered: 02-2004 |
Geez, Illitches want to tear down everything significant downtown! At least they asked the Historical Society first. Still, I'd be amazed if I saw site crews there anytime this year. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3876 Registered: 08-2004 |
Swingline, in dealing with downtown building owners Preservation Wayne has to tread carefully. Piss of the building owners too badly, and no more access for historic tours. That said, Preservation Wayne was critical of the Madison-Lenox fiasco, and has been critical of the poor building maintenance that Ilitch Holdings has been doing. They just don't get real militant about it. They don't have to... that's what the National Trust is for! Also, Preservation Wayne has a good working relationship with Atanas Ilitch, so hopefully more restorations are in the works for the future. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3877 Registered: 08-2004 |
Also... there was little of architectural interest in the Fine Arts Building interiors, so it's not that great of a loss. But the article doesn't tell us what is going up behind the facade, nor does it mention what is going to happen to the Adams Theatre auditorium behind the Fine Arts Building alley. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2176 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: There was nothing artistic about that project. But I did hear that H F Laguna Beach will be up and running soon. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 294 Registered: 04-2004 |
God, the inside is such a disaster. | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 439 Registered: 08-2006 |
They are going to gut it, and provide a nice flammable wooden structure to support the facade. A mysterious fire will then happen. The facade will then be deemed "structurally unsound" and what the fire didn't destroy the wrecking ball will. This is just a back-door way to increase olympias parking-lot holdings. | ||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3693 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: No, it didn't. The large majority of the structural elements and walls of the Madison were retained. The Madison Theater project and this facade preservation at the Fine Arts are two very different things. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 503 Registered: 03-2006 |
you guys are so damn negative...there's a huge disconect between Illitch's past lack of historic preservation and all this illegal fraud/arson you all propose illitch will undoubtedly carry out. You all are circle jerking this idea around when simply there is nothing to say that Illitch is an actual criminal, if anything he is become MORE of a preservationist and doing a BETTER job of keeping his promises of restoration (starting with the Fox and now the Detroit Life building). Stop bitching, and look at what you're saying. Im 18 and Im telling you all to GROW THE HELL UP. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 324 Registered: 03-2006 |
I got a baby's brain and an old man's heart Took eighteen years to get this far Don't always know what I'm talkin' about Feels like I'm livin in the middle of doubt | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2007 |
Ok so this is somewat comparable to the mid med loft project , | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 505 Registered: 03-2006 |
well there's no development plan, but presumably it's the same concept, though I'd like to see something with more height | ||
Downtownguy Member Username: Downtownguy Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2004 |
Swingline's got it right. Ilitch is the city's worst welfare recipient. Other than the Fox--which the city provided most of the money for, not to mention the muscle to force Chuck Forbes to sell it--Ilitch has done nothing but leave these wonderful properties to waste away. If he had done something when he first acquired the Fine Arts Building, then there would more than a facade to work with now. He always has his hand out to taxpayers--yet his wife can afford to buy a casino for half a billion dollars. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 295 Registered: 04-2004 |
How long has Ilitch had ownership of the FA? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 651 Registered: 12-2006 |
"Think Mid Med Lofts." Hopefully without the widow debate. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 500 Registered: 11-2005 |
I hate to see history go, but what are you going to do with the inside of this building? Turn it into even more condos? If you have been inside it in the past five or six years, you know that it's trashed and with a theater, it's not exactly an easy space to redevelop. I'm glad they plan to at least try and save the facade. But again, what is the rest of the plan? I'm reserving all judgment on this development until we know what they're building behind it. | ||
Bobzilla Member Username: Bobzilla Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2003 |
The Fine Arts Building is by Louis Kamper -- and I think that Kamper had his office in the Fine Arts Building when he drew up his big plans for Washington Boulevard. If they can't save the whole building, I'm glad they're at least going to save the facade. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 767 Registered: 06-2006 |
I can't believe how utterly clueless some of you are...it sounds like you all want Ilitch to pump a bunch of money into these properties even if that means losing money on his investment... HELLO!!!...tell me, why in the world would any investor in their right mind do something like that??? Perhaps one day soon the downtown economy will be viable such that rehabbing all of these buildings would be a worthwhile investment...but that day is not today... downtownguy, don't you get it that a Casino pays for itself several times over? one investment has nothing to do with the other...Ilitch doesn't owe you or the city anything...he's not any more obligated than you are to intentionally take a loss on an investment just because some people would love to see some old buildings rehabbed...anyone who runs their business like that would run it right into the ground, and deservedly so... | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 328 Registered: 03-2006 |
I will give you an example of why Illitch should and better pump money into an investment. He was hand picked by the city to obtain the GAR for peanuts. The city pretended to give others a chance and it was a farce. Now here he is with this great building, and we expect results. Not the same results for the last number of years of buying buildings letting them rot and then saying he cant rehab. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 751 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well, the proper assignment of cluelessness around here is certainly subject to debate. Expecting Mr. Ilitch to expend $300K-$400K over the course of a decade to minimally attempt to keep his hoard of historic buildings up to code is no more clueless than Thejesus' neighbors who expect him to keep his house painted every once in awhile so that it doesn't become a neighborhood eyesore. I don't know Thejesus' financial circumstances, but there's a good chance that in relative terms, the six-figure cost to Mr. Ilitch is less expensive than the painting cost would be to Thejesus. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 769 Registered: 06-2006 |
swingline: Your point would only matter if other investors were lining up around the block ready to purchase old buildings in Detroit so they could throw money at them and rehab them...this is not the case...the GAR and the Fine Arts Building would not be in any better condition than they are if Ilitich didn't own them... here we have a guy that has been willing to take a chance with Detroit for decades in the way that few people have, and all you guys can do is bitch that he's not doing enough...and that's the difference between people like him and people like you... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2230 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: That's speculative if I ever heard it. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 331 Registered: 03-2006 |
There were a lot of people that wanted to buy the GAR from the city, the city chose Illitch | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3256 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gee, do you mean Illitch gets special treatment? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3885 Registered: 08-2004 |
Just to straighten up a couple of misconceptions on this forum.... 1) CAY did armtwist Chuck Forbes to sell the Fox to Mike Ilitch. Had he not done so, likely the Fox would be just like the auditorium of the State today... unrestored with paint peeling and tons of smoke soot all over the auditorium surfaces. 2) Mike Ilitch used his own money ($8 million) to clean up and restore the Fox Theatre/Building. 3) The Fine Arts cannot be rebuilt using a wood structure. Current fire codes prevent such an undertaking for multistory office buildings. 4) The GAR went to Ilitch because he was the only one (besides perhaps Michigan Building owner Anthony Pieroni) that owned nearby parking space for the GAR. No parking, no bank loan for redevelopment, no redevelopment. 5) The Madison Theatre auditorium was demolished. The salvagable ornate plasterwork was removed, and is somewhere in storage. The only part that survived the demolition was the shallow office block in front, as well as the very uninspiring theatre lobby (just a hallway and a stairway). 6) Mike Ilitch purchased the Fine Arts/Adams Theatre in the early 1990's. It was a working theatre and office building back then. A new roof on both could have prevented the current situation where the Fine Arts Building will be demoed and a new building attached to the facade. The auditoriums fate is still in doubt. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thejesus, the difference between my clueless outlook and yours is that I believe that the equation involves more than just dollars and cents. City ordinances and property maintenance codes should apply regardless of the almighty "market" and willing investors. Also, it is not in the public interest to allow historic resources to deteriorate while the owner engages in land speculation. Ownership carries obligations - legal and otherwise - regardless of the return on investment. For a billionaire to fail to adhere to these obligations when the relative cost of adherence was so small cannot be easily excused. Mr. Ilitch has been enigma when it comes to his contributions to Detroit. It feels very strange to criticize someone who is so obviously passionate about his interests, many of which have been so beneficial to Detroit. The Fox Theater is a national treasure. But for Mr. Ilitch, we would be traipsing to Salem Township to watch the Tigers at Bo Shembechler Park. The Stanley Cups and the World Series appearance have created amazing memories for millions of people. How can a person who has produced so many good things for the city also be responsible for the final destruction of so many important buildings? (Message edited by swingline on March 23, 2007) | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 511 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ilitch doesn't do it for the benefit of the city, he does it for himself. He is no benefactor of Detroit. Sure, good things he has done have helped the city, but he has profited from all of them. But just because he saved the Fox does not make him a preservationist. I thought he should have been thrown in jail for the Madison-Lenox fiasco. "Court order? I'm Mike f'in Ilitch! Carry on, boys!" | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 721 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: Yes, how clueless of us to expect property owners to do minimum upkeep. Obviously our standards are too high. What I can't believe is you're willing to excuse neglect especially from someone who purports himself as one of the city's boosters. Shouldn't that hold him to a higher standard of behavior? But I guess for geniuses like you, it's OK that his vacant properties are no better taken care of than those of common slumlords like Mike Higgins. (Message edited by eric on March 23, 2007) | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2005 |
He has to let his properties get "ripe," Eric. When he buys the buildings, many are not bad enough to be condemned. He has to let the elements and scavengers ripen them before he can turn them into parking lots. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 63 Registered: 01-2007 |
It's too bad there isn't some kind of ordinance that would require building owners in the CBD to put a sum of money into an escrow account for building maintainance when it changes hands. The carrot could be extended tax abatement or tax credits. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 267 Registered: 10-2003 |
I still think if you own a building downtown that has been abandoned for more than 10 years, the city should give you a token amount of money and take it from you. You obviously arent using it or even trying to, and you're hurting the whole area by having your abandoned building add to blight. A lot of these people refuse to sell for a reasonable amount of money because they think they'll be able to get more for it when things start going well, but things wont start going well as long as their building stands there vacant. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1991 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: When did Detroit become a charity? I mean, it might seem like a charity case sometimes, but it's not technically a charity. And why should a businessperson undertake something to benefit the city and not him/herself? If it's a win/win, that's great. And certainly there are ethical issues concerning how you handle historic properties. But nobody should make business decisions simply to "help Detroit." That distorts the market and in the long run doesn't help anyone. quote: With all the extra money the city has laying around to purchase and mothball buildings. Not to mention this is still America and we don't do things like that casually. I have an idea. The city should take everyone who sits around tells them what they SHOULD do and force them to run for office. Or else stop with the stupid ideas. | ||
Harsensis Member Username: Harsensis Post Number: 198 Registered: 07-2005 |
Has anyone else been to forgottendetroit lately? I tried today and I could not get it to load. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 530 Registered: 11-2005 |
When did Detroit become a charity? I mean, it might seem like a charity case sometimes, but it's not technically a charity. No one said he had to be a benefactor, but he is treated as such. As for forgottendetroit, I, too, could not get it to load. I hope it's not gone forever. :/ | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 130 Registered: 06-2005 |
Guys, Im all for restoring historic places (member of National Trust for Historic Preservation), but ya know, Ilich is a buisness man. He has to do what he feels is right for Ilich holdings too. He cant restore detroit by himself. Would restoring the FA building and Adams be fezable? and would it be profitable? Evidently the answer is no. I hate to see a beautiful little theater like that go and I do think that saving the facade, he is just trying to apeze the preservationist in the D. Progress is progress guys, if he would do something with the property, like build an awsome new structure that would lend to the vitality of the city Im all for it. Why bother just saving the front of a building. I hate to say it but if if he is really going to put something good on that lot, tear that shit down. (and I never thought I would say that!!) I just think there comes a time when all things must pass. It does kill me though to see the Adams go. I wish I had the money to buy everything and restore it myself. :-( But I dont. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3898 Registered: 08-2004 |
Unfortunately the Adams Theatre interior ornamentation (minimal at best) was removed decades ago when the auditorium was "modernized" and "twinned". It was never a "movie palace" in the truest sense of the word. The lobby was only a hallway with stairs, no fancy plasterwork or that "wow" factor that other downtown theatres had. It was just a small office building that 15 years after it was constructed a small theatre entrance was squeezed into it, and a plain auditorium was built behind the alley, with main floor patrons going thru a tunnel under the alley, and balcony patrons going thru a catwalk above the alley. The best part of the Fine Arts Building/Adams Theatre was the FACADE! So to say that it should be removed.... just shows the "lack of information" that a lot of you about these 2 buildings. By keeping the facade (with a new office structure behind it), it retains the nearly complete "street wall" of the north side of Adams Ave. The only missing piece is the parking between the Fine Arts and Kales Buildings, which back in the early 20th Century used to be Hurley Hospital, before it was razed, circa mid 20th century. Let's not have any more talk of further destroying that fantastic "north wall" of Adams Avenue. If Mike Ilitch wants to rebuild the Fine Arts Building (which was already structurally unstable)... I see no point in complaining about it. Nuff said! | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2142 Registered: 07-2004 |
Excellent point, Gistok. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1894 Registered: 12-2003 |
BTW - Who owns the old Hurley lot? Maybe that part will be filled in by part of this project. It will also be interesting to see what the north side of the development looks like (facing Elizabeth). Gistok forgot one one piece of of Adams street wall that is just asking for a high visibility entertainment use: The corner of Adams and Witherell, next to the Chili bar. That should also be the property of Olympia. Adams has the potential to be full of entertainment uses from the Gar building to the Elwood. It may one day be the link from the Hockey area to Ford Field, with the Baseball park in the middle. The two parcels I already mentioned, and the south side across from the ballpark are the high priority opportunities at this point. Since parking that close to the ball park is high dollar, perhaps it would make since to replicate the Opera House garage on this piece next to Barden's office: http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&q=detroit&layer=&ie=UT F8&z=19&ll=42.337626,-83.04850 8&spn=0.000894,0.002704&t=k&om =1 It is roughly the same size and shape. The various ground floor spaces have a lot of potential: It seems that a couple blocks from the fox, across from the Opera House, and close to the Gem and Music Hall, would make a great location for a high-end restaurant on the Madison frontage. Souvenirs, sport bars and the like facing the ball park would rent out pretty fast (at least during the seasons.) Where I now live in South Carolina, people are so nuts for Clemson football, that they buy small condos just to visit during home football weekends. Maybe some small ones overlooking the ball park would be a good development? Too bad the owner of that lot can pay no virtually no property taxes and make a fortune. They are probably happy doing nothing for a moderate profit that getting involved and trying to make a boat-load. I wonder who owns that land? | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 2131 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not that I think the Fine Arts Building could or should be saved beyond the facade, here's a little history.... From the Detroit Free Press, Sunday, April 20, 1906: New Fine Arts Building Now Being Erected for Hugo Scherer on West Adams Avenue. Designed by Louis Kamper, Architect. "Something entirely new in business structures is the Fine Arts building now being erected for Hugo Scherer on Adams Avenue west. The intention of the owner is accommodate especially the fine arts trade in Detroit, and the structure, ...will be one of more elaborate and modern equipment. The George R. Angell Co. will occupy two stores in the building and a feature of its department will be an art gallery for display of foreign and American paintings on exhibition. C.M. Hayes & Co. photographers will occupy a large part of the building with photographic studios. Part of the building is constructed especially for the accommodation of the Hayes company, with new features in the photographic art. The Gies art school will be located on the top floor. Special skylights and special light effects will be arranged for a model art school. The Vinton Co. will occupy a large space in the building for its new decorative art department. Negotiations are pending with many others seeking fine offices and studios in a central high-class location. This building is being fitted with all the latest and most modern devices for comfort and convenience.... Architect Kamper has given this entire matter a great deal of thought and study. The building is six stories high and several floors are reserved for physicians and other professional men." The building opened in late 1906 or sometime in 1907. So it's 100 years old. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3908 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks for the info Kathleen! I just checked, and that Hurley Hospital that used to be next to the Fine Arts Building, appears to have been about 1 story taller than the Fine Arts Building. It was still standing in a 1947 photo. Jsmyers, I didn't forget about the empty lot next to the Women's Exchange Building (Chelios Chili). I was basically referring to West Adams, whose street wall continues 2 buildings west of Park Avenue. That street wall used to continue a bit farther west, until the auditorium of the Downtown RKO Theatre was razed in 1951 (the 2nd building west of Park Ave. was the entrance and lobby to this 2,950 seat theatre). The theatre auditorium's exterior sidewall was along Adams for nearly 1/2 block westward. Ironically the 2-3 story grand lobby of the Downtown RKO Theatre still exists intact (except for the removal of the chandeliers to the Redford Theatre). It is used as building storage space, unavailable to the public. Apparently they demolished the theatre auditorium, and bricked up the doors from the grand lobby to the auditorium, since the grand lobby space was within the office/hotel tower. (Note: they did much more than just brick up the doors, but that kinda describes it best.) (Message edited by Gistok on March 26, 2007) | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 131 Registered: 06-2005 |
Sorry Gistok, Once again I shot my mouth off without the full information. Now I understand why saving the facade is important. Thanks. One thing I really dont get though is why a lot of folks feels Ilich owes Detroit (or anyone for that matter) anything. He has done a lot already, but he is a buisness man and is in it for one thing and one thing only MONEY$$$$$. Glad hes at least gonna save the front if it would alter the street scape to demolish it. | ||
Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer Post Number: 262 Registered: 08-2004 |
I don't necessarily thinks that Illich owes Detroit anything more doing something with the buildings that he already owns, rather than letting them rot. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 506 Registered: 03-2006 |
speaking of all this, since there doesnt seem to be any new developments on this building as of yet.... is work still going on at the Detroit Life building? I know it was announced that serious construction work had started, but it didnt look like much was going on last time I drove by | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 774 Registered: 06-2006 |
swingline: many of these properties were in rough condition when they were purchased by current landowners becasue of the way that Detroit residents have neglected their city over the years...the problem with your "city codes" idea is that the city already has enough difficulty just giving away many of the vacant properties that it owns, much less selling them...forcing building owners to fix up the exteriors of some of these building would only create a disincentive to purchase property in the city...furtthermore, the city would probably run into difficulty forcing owners of buildings to fix them up without the city doing the same to all the properties it owns, which would cost the city a fortune, a fortune that it doesn't have | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 283 Registered: 10-2003 |
how did the commission go last night? | ||
Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer Post Number: 268 Registered: 08-2004 |
I found some recent interior shots on Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/s nweb/ | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3988 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks Leland! Wow, back in the early 90's I remember going to the On Stage Restaurant. Didn't know it was all still there intact. I remember some of the areas of the restaurant...1) French bistro, 2) Medieval castle, 3) Train Car, 4) Ocean Liner. The whole concept of the restaurant was quite appropriate for the Theatre District. Too bad they couldn't reuse the props in a new venue. And the collapsing beams... Yikes! I wouldn't want to go in there urban spelunking... | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3911 Registered: 10-2003 |
thehippocriticaljesus: quote: Wow all of us eh? And not one of those slum lord property owners are from the burbs eh? Tell you what find out how many city residents own the big azz abandoned buildings downtown and are just doing nothing with them dumbazz... | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 740 Registered: 11-2004 |
Good find Leland Those pics really leave no doubt that a facadectomy is this buildings only hope. | ||
Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer Post Number: 278 Registered: 08-2004 |
Any news? It would be nice if the Historic Commission posted their minutes in addition to their agendas. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 284 Registered: 10-2003 |
HDC approved the application to demolish except for the facade. There was a motion to have the site be additionally off limites to surface parking, but there were not enough votes to carry into a resolution...too bad. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4047 Registered: 08-2004 |
Detourdetroit, do you know are they just razing the Fine Arts Building (besides the facade)... are they leaving the Adams Auditorium?? | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1080 Registered: 10-2003 |
it was only to demolish the fine arts building, not the adams theatre auditorium... | ||
Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer Post Number: 280 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks for the update. It'd be nice if the media would do some reporting in this case. I applaud the commission trying to block surface parking. I can't see how they can prohibit demolition of facade and then not approve of a ban on parking. Is someone hoping that the bracing fails? Or will we be able to drive through the front door if nothing else is build? | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 155 Registered: 06-2005 |
That would be cool if they left the Adams. The entrance was nothing and it was a cute little theater! Will keep looking here for updates. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4054 Registered: 08-2004 |
This obviously means that the skyway connecting the Fine Arts Building to the Adams will be coming down. Hopefully Ilitch will seal up the hole on the 2nd level of the Adams. And I wonder if he'll be forced to dig up the tunnel underneath the alley (former hallway for main floor patrons), and seal up the basement wall of the Adams. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2004 |
Why leave the Adams isn't it beyond repair? It's going to be hard rebuilding the Fine Arts just from the alley | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4055 Registered: 08-2004 |
Eric, the alley has to remain. it's the delivery entrance & trash collection point for all the buildings on the block. It's not like they can close it at that point and just put in a building going from W. Adams to W. Elizabeth behind it. And there's no point in demolishing the Adams theatre at this point. It could (hardly likely I agree) be redeveloped with a new entrance off of Elizabeth, instead of Adams. Isn't there a parking lot just east of the Adams auditorium? The auditorium faces west (stage closer to Park Ave.) so a new entrance could be from the east, instead of from the south. Granted, like I said, there's little chance for a reuse for the Adams auditorium. But in the mean time, no point in demolishing it... for more parking! The small vestibule carved out of the Fine Arts Building in 1917 was a tiny entrance for the Adams anyway. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1084 Registered: 10-2003 |
there's part of the michigan mutual building between the adams and that parking lot on woodward; so it's sandwiched in there pretty good. a new entrance could be put in on elizabeth, but there's really no reason why they couldn't build a new lobby/entrance in the new fine arts building and connect it the same way. i am a little surprised that the ilitch's aren't using this as an excuse for tearing down the auditorium. maybe they're playing it safe after the madison lenox debacle? or maybe there isn't much of a case to spend the money to tear it down right now. [gasp] they might even have plans for it! (which i highly doubt, given that it would serve as competition to the fox.) gistok; my guess is that they'll leave the tunnel under the alley and just cinder-block up the fine arts side. cheapest way of going about it. unless the city makes them tear up the tunnel, back fill it, then the city would have to rebuild the utilities and paving. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4060 Registered: 08-2004 |
Rsa, I agree with you... I too am surprised that they aren't tearing down the auditorium, for parking, or otherwise. But I didn't look at the Adams as potential competition for the Fox, more like complimenting the Fox, by using it for smaller acts. The Adams had 1,700 seats versus the Fox's 5,174 seat maximum capacity. | ||
Benjamin Member Username: Benjamin Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2003 |
That's bloody well it. The intent is there to demolish the Fine Arts building. The Maddison-Lennox was recently demolished, and there are perhaps a dozen more masterpieces which probably won't survive the decade. Back in my hometown, all but the most dedicated of dreamers can see that Alma College won't last more than a couple of years. There's nothing the city's doing. There's nothing the city can do. Living in Montreal has offered me an opertuinity to live somewhere that heritage isn't wantonly demolished at the signal of whomever might feel the will or whim. I am not comming back to the great lakes. Not unless some of these buildings are saved, and quite frankly, my hopes are rather low indeed. Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E. benjaminavazquez@hotmail.com | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1086 Registered: 10-2003 |
oh, i realize that gistok. but even a small venue, in their eyes, takes seats away from the fox. i have heard quite the snooty interactions, back in the day, to mr. forbes about shows at the state and the gem. [much of a coincidence that ilitch almost got the gem condemned because of it's proximity, not within the footprint, to copa?] but now, who knows what atanis has up his sleeve... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4065 Registered: 08-2004 |
After reading the article on Ilitch getting a state grant to tear down that little building behind the Fox... maybe the public grant for the Adams auditorium tear-town hasn't come thru yet...  | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1089 Registered: 10-2003 |
that's a good point. i mean, heaven forbid he actually use his own money to tear down something he's neglected! | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4300 Registered: 10-2003 |
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E. = traitor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U nited_Empire_Loyalists | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4068 Registered: 08-2004 |
Ben, your comments do come off as rather childish sounding, almost pouty... are you a college student? If your criteria for coming back to the Great Lakes is determined whether or not some building or buildings survive the wreckers ball, well that's not a very mature approach, now is it? | ||
Benjamin Member Username: Benjamin Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2003 |
I apologise. I've been hit by too many demolition orders, and it struck a raw nerve. You must remember that after years of first complacency and then fitful attempts to involve myself in a dying cause, I've finaly come to accept that Alma College is almost certainly going to be demolished. And I probably could have done SOMETHING. I can't possibly say what, but I'm likley going to go to my grave believing that Alma College's demolition was somehow my fault. I love that building. I won't return to St. Thomas, but then I won't return to St. Thomas for reasons which have everything to do with the limited cultural community there. Detroit doesn't have that disadvantage. I don't know if I'll come back to the lakes in general. Demolition orders are still a raw nerve, and in my defense they haven't been struck here yet. Montreal hasn't been demolishing buildings of that quality for some decades. Maybe once the carnage is over. And maybe once there's a metro system - I've become quite set in my instance that I shall never own a car. I do love this city. And if the day comes when Detroit makes of itself something more like the east, I would consider it very seriously indeed. Then again, there's a part of me which thinks I was born on the wrong continent. Jelk, I treasure my links with Europe and with the past. They are our roots, and we must protect them. Without roots there can be nothing new of lasting value. If that weren't the case, I would never have been upset to begin with. Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 768 Registered: 11-2004 |
You're acting like they're demolishing the entire building, the facade is being saved. The Fine Arts is a wood frame building that has all, but rotted away. The same basic procedure was done on the former Melrose Hotel when it was converted into the Mid-Med Lofts. Construction pics: http://fadeddetroit.blogspot.c om/2007/03/mid-med-lofts-updat e.html quote: Actually, I was thinking more along the lines that they would build two new buildings. Demolish everything from the Adams facade back, with the new building across the alley replacing the theatre basically matching the Adams facade and connected with a small skybridge. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 144 Registered: 03-2007 |
ANYTHINGS POSSIBLE THESE DAYS FOR OUR GRAND CITY OF DETROIT. When thousands of visitors came for the superbowl, our falling angels became headline news for would-be developers,investers, and just plain o'l word of mouth.We have to prepare for a massive overhale of not just our physical structures, but we must overhale of internal stagnant mindset | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 207 Registered: 06-2005 |
I've emailed Ilitch holdings about the UA, its pretty obvious whats going on with the fine arts building (not sure about the theater). But I just asked them what were their plans for the UA? I also told them that I do post here and I will be posting their reply. Im sure it will be a generic form letter but will see. I'll start a new thread when I get a reply. Im sure Im not the first one that has emailed them. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 208 Registered: 06-2005 |
here is my letter.... Hello, I am a member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. I grew up in Detroit but now live in Nashville. I have searched the Ilitch Holdings site over for any information on the United Artist theater that your company owns. I have found nothing. Is the theater for sale? Is it slated for demolition? Is it going to be RESTORED? This theater is a National Treasure and is under the watch of Ilitch holdings. Why is nothing being done with this beautiful treasure? If your company is not going to restore it, isnt there someway to turn it over to someone that will. To further let this gem sit there and crumble is a crime! In a few more years of neglect, there will be nothing to be restored. I read and post often on the DetroitYes website and will be sharing your answer with the public there. Thank you so much for your answer. Im sure you are asked this often. Please Please do not let this beautiful theater dissappear. When its gone, nothing will EVER Bring it back! They cant build that today. Look at the terrible loss of the Michigan theater! This cannot happen with the UA. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 942 Registered: 06-2006 |
Exmotowner: My understanding was that the property is for sale, hence the big ass sign on it that reads "Premier Development Opportunity"... The last I read was that Olympia and the city are jointly marketing the UA building along with the Statler site... If a corporate headquarters rises on the Statler site, as Atanas Ilitch "predicted" last year, you can probably expect to see something happen with the UA building shortly after | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4136 Registered: 08-2004 |
The United Artists/Tuller block is only about 80% owned by Ilitch Holdings. There are 2 smaller parcels of land... one smaller one to the right of the UA Theatre entrance, and a larger one at the corner of W. Adams and Clifford. These parcels are owned by the estate of a Harold Shapiro of Bloomfield Hills. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 209 Registered: 06-2005 |
Hey. I know I was pissin in the wind by writing that letter but would be nice to hear what they have to say. Its the only thing I can do from here. Sure wish I could help more. Not sure how though. I keep trying to hit power ball but that hasnt happened LOL. Maybe they will tell us something new. |
