  Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 685 Registered: 02-2004 |
DETROIT -- Begging in Detroit could soon become a costly career if the City Council adopts a new ordinance to bar panhandling in the city. The council today will discuss a proposed ordinance to fine people who beg for money near ATMs, in public areas or on buses. Begging near banks or cash stations would carry a $50 fine and begging in public areas or on public transit would carry a $25 fine. Repeat offenders would face larger fines or jail time. Read more here: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070309/M ETRO01/703090384 I have mixed feelings about this. I've been downtown for a number of years, from going to school at Cass to working downtown for the past 6 years. I can safely say I've seen the same guys panhandling now from my days of going to school. But what do you expect.. they're homeless. At least for the most part. I do know of a couple of guys that go to an apartment each night. But how do you fine.. the homeless? I can understand getting rid of the nuisance of panhandling downtown and busy intersections, but this seems to be creating a bigger divide from middle-class and the homeless. Detroit hasn't made much of an effort to help people/families in this state, and Michigan in it's tough crisis isn't exactly pouring money into the system. Is this the right way to go about things? | ||
Cmubryan Member Username: Cmubryan Post Number: 382 Registered: 11-2003 |
It's about damn time although I don't know how they will enforce it. I do know that something similar was done in NYC among other harsher punishments for simple quality of life crimes and it really helped to clean up the city. Hopefully the police will be ballsy enough to come down hard like in NYC... | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 634 Registered: 11-2003 |
The best way to stop panhandling is for people to stop giving them money. "I gave to the local soup kitchen, go get something to eat there" is what these people need to hear and not be given a dollar they can blow on cigs or booze. It takes two to tango, start fining the people who are handing out dollar bills to these people also. At least they'd be able to pay the fines. Put up signs where panhandlers are noted to hang out advising people to give money to homeless shelters where their money will be wisely spent instead of handing out change/bills to individuals. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 350 Registered: 08-2004 |
This will never happen. The police have a better relationship with the homeless than they do with most citizens. On top of some of them being their eyes and ears, who do you think they deal with most on a daily basis? Anyone who has gotten on I-75 by Lafayette or by the Ambassador Bridge has seen police talking to them a helping them move along for an hour or so, then they are back again. I don't see how this going to help most Detroiters' quality of life. There are so many other issues that need to be dealt with that this is laughable. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2536 Registered: 02-2005 |
Islandman's last point is right on. It (this law) doesn't help me or you (other than making us feel good because we won't have to deny someone money and feel guilty), but it hurts others. Who gives a crap how they spend their limited money. Do you like it when someone else tells you how to spend yours? You always have the option of not giving money...but there's no reason this should be enshrined in law. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Who gives a crap how they spend their limited money." A number of them are homeless precisely because they spend money to fuel their alcohol and drug habits, habits that in many cases are what keep them homeless and prevent them from taking steps to get out of that situation. If you don't mind perpetuating their homelessness and adding to the cause, then by all means take a "who cares?" attitude about it and hand them money for more drugs and booze and be a contributing factor to the problem. Regardless of whether this is codified in law, where they spend their money is actually rather relevant to their situation. | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 221 Registered: 06-2006 |
My family and I just recently went to the DIA on a Sunday. We were approached by a pan handler just as we were getting out of the vehicle at the valet parking area. I could not believe it. The person that was asked for money honestly didn't have any, so it wasn't a lie when they refused to give money. What the city should do is establish a place to house (shelter, rehab, whatever) people without homes. When they ticket the homeless for panhandling the folks should be delivered right to the homeless shelter. I know there are a ton of empty buildings downtown and I am sure there is room for some organization to get funding (faith based) for a group like this. Personally, if I was homeless (and I have been close in the early days of my life) I would head to a warmer climate. At least a person wouldn't be freezing. There isn't an easy answer for this. The homeless situation increased dramatically when Reagan cut the funding for mental health institutions. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1253 Registered: 03-2005 |
"I don't see how this going to help most Detroiters' quality of life. There are so many other issues that need to be dealt with that this is laughable." The homeless/panhandling situation in Detroit is 'laughable' and its reduction or elimination wouldn't enhance the quality of life for Detroiters?! You must not live in Detroit Islandman. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 317 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh my God. Quote: "What the city should do is establish a place to house (shelter, rehab, whatever) people without homes." There are already a number of them in the city, particularly in the Cass Corridor. Quote: "I know there are a ton of empty buildings downtown and I am sure there is room for some organization to get funding (faith based) for a group like this." The empty buildings are already occupied by homeless people. The problem is they're squatting and not receiving any actual assistance. There are also already a number of faith-based organizations in the city working with the homeless. Quote: "The homeless situation increased dramatically when Reagan cut the funding for mental health institutions." You're confusing Reagan with Gov. John Engler. There are a number of social service organizations out there to deal with the homeless, but many of the homeless are severely mentally ill and don't necessarily have the sense to utilize the many programs and services available to them. What they need is mental health care, not handouts, not faith-based funding and not abandoned buildings. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 355 Registered: 08-2004 |
Hockey_player, There is a much larger percentage of the population that is not homeless that is buying and selling drugs and booze. Most homeless people do have a substance abuse problem, but I guarantee that the bit of money that they get from people is keeping them jolly all day long. Every person's story is different. Assuming they are all homeless because they spend money money on drugs and alcohol is not looking at the whole picture. There are two parts here that are being overlooked. Many of these people are homeless because of alack of psychiatric services (which they desperately need), caused by the closing of most of Michigan's large mental health facilities. There are many on this board that would be much more familiar with what this caused since it happened before my time. Second, it's called self medication, a habit that a majority of the population of the world indulges in (some more than others). With the absence of legitimate medication to alleviate the myriad of issues that these people are dealing with, they self medicate with what is available on the street. Cheap booze and drugs. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 318 Registered: 10-2003 |
Self-medication is fine if you have a job, a house and a life that is not jeopardized by occasional intoxication. When you desperately need to get your life together, medicating yourself day and night is not a feasible solution. Mental health problems are usually exacerbated, not alleviated, by drug and alcohol use. I worked with the homeless for several years back in the early 90s in the Cass Corridor. A survey at the time found that 70 percent of them had serious substance abuse problems. Something like 65 percent had mental health issues. Obviously, there's considerable overlap, and nearly every one I dealt with had a problem with both. It may be a self-preservation instinct to dull their senses with drugs and alcohol, but that path does not lead them out of their predicament, and condoning it only worsens and enables the problem. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 357 Registered: 08-2004 |
MrJoshua, I have lived in Detroit for most of my life. I attended Cass Tech and have walked by these people every day for years. I have lived downtown (10+ years) for a large portion of time as well. I don't think you have lived Detroit if you consider this an important issue, considering everything else that is wrong in the city right now. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11398 Registered: 10-2003 |
Great, another ordinance that won't be enforced, splendid! | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 169 Registered: 09-2006 |
This is such a difficult topic to assess and solve. Many of these people need help badly, are desperate, many mentally unstable. On the other hand the increasing amount on downtown streets are causing a major problem for people on the streets, I know myself I get tired of many of them congregating in large numbers in front of businesses you are trying to enter. I have thought twice many times about entering certain restaurants and retail establishments with 5 or more honing in on me as I approach, I quite frankly dont know what the agenda is,, I didn't gas up at the station at Jefferson and the 75 service drive two days ago as I drove up three guys came towards me, no thanks, This has to be controlled somehow, ticketing is a first step but enforcement is the key and that takes more cops, otherwise its all a joke. This has to be taken seriously as it affects the survival of many new and existing businesses downtown but at the same time we need to address the needs of these down and out people. (Message edited by DetroitBill on March 09, 2007) | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 358 Registered: 08-2004 |
H_p, I agree with your points. I just don't think that the police need to waste man hours to work on the homeless issue, when they are needed elsewhere. And fining homeless people?!? Give me a break! It's very hard to see what is a wrong or right decision when you have mental instability added on to our flaws. Unfortunate. | ||
Peter Member Username: Peter Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2007 |
This is a good plan, when out of towners come for business or leisure for the first time the last thing they need is a panhandler harassing them on the streets while they are trying to enjoy themselves. First impressions are the most important and an encounter with a panhandler could ruin anyone's first impression of the city. With all of the money and focus on tourism and bringing people from Metro Detroit and elsewhere downtown it is important to make sure those spending money there enjoy themselves. It is simple. There are simple things that the city can do to make a visit to downtown more enjoyable, like the downtown cleaning initiative, or cleaning facades of abandoned buildings, or making laws against panhandling. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 360 Registered: 08-2004 |
Right. NYC has panhandlers. Tourists just stay away from that place by the droves. Gee, let me list the cities off the top of my head that I've been asked for money: NYC Chicago Orlando San Diego Miami Pittsburgh Cleveland Windsor Toronto This will never stop me from visiting any of them ever again. Panhandlers are, unfortunately, part of the urban experience. No big deal. I guarantee that any out of towner that comes from a bigger city than ours has been there, done that. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2005 |
The problem with your comparison is that in those other cities one is less likely to be the only other person on the sidewalk. Here the homeless to pedestrian ratio is much greater, hence much more individual contact. Chicago, NYC...etc, homeless aggressive bums are part of the background noise. In Detroit they are front and center and in your face. Detroit is the only city I've every had a block long confrontation and argument with a bum that refused to take "no" for an answer. And it has happened more than once. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1255 Registered: 03-2005 |
Islandman, it IS a big deal for most people, especially those suburbanites we've been trying to lure back into the major cities over the past few decades or so. Panhandling is exceedingly annoying and should not be a prerequisite for entry to the urban experience. | ||
Peter Member Username: Peter Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2007 |
I have also been asked for money in every major city I have visited Islandman, it's nothing special. What differs Detroit from cities like Boston, Chicago, or NYC is they are destination points, these cities have no problem drawing tourists in. Detroit has a long way to go before we are anything like any of those cities, but small initiatives like this can't do anything but help. The only part of this I do not agree with is the fine... there should be an alternative punishment like 10 hours of community service- cleaning parks or something. This way police would not have to feel guilty about taking $25-50 from those who cannot afford to lose it and they might actually enforce it. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 974 Registered: 11-2003 |
Islandman, all of your arguments go right out the window when you come to the realization that the people you see begging on the street are not homeless at all.....and if you spend an afternoon with me I can prove it for the ones working Greektown. I know most of them by face (at least the "core" 5 or 6, and for years I have flatly refused to give any of them money. One day, after I moved downtown, I see a group of men pull up in a 4-door chevy. Out of the driver's seat pops the most henous and foul-mouthed of the Greektown Beggars! I was shocked when the other 4 men getting out of the car were other Greektown Regular Beggars. If you think that ANY of these men and women are homeless, you haven't spent much time downtown.......the true homeless (mentally ill) are the ones NOT asking for money.....they don't have any need for it.... | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 362 Registered: 08-2004 |
I know that it's annoying; not disputing that. Do you think that the City of Detroit, with all that we know needs to be fixed in its city infrastructure, needs to have its police force enforcing a panhandling ordinance, while more serious crimes are being committed? Funny, suburbanites have been coming down anew over the decade, first with the opening of the casinos, then the stadiums. I don't see that stopping with or without this ordinance. I'd rather see more police spending time in other neighborhoods in Detroit, not handing out tickets to homeless people in the CBD. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 363 Registered: 08-2004 |
Gambling_man, Yes, you are correct about these, lol. They use to hand out in front of the 2 arcades in Greektown back in the day. Yeah, I've been asked for money and I was in high school. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 697 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: This wrong attitude to have, police here overlook small crimes far too much. One of the reasons why NYC saw a big drop in crime is because police took petty crime including panhandling much more seriously. (Message edited by eric on March 09, 2007) | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 635 Registered: 11-2003 |
Islandman, the difference between most of the cities you mentioned and Detroit is that there are a lot more reasons to visit them as opposed to Detroit. This past summer I was with a group of people including my wifes parents (From California) eating lunch at American Coney Island. We encountered 2 to 3 panhandlers as we walked in and had a panhandler approach us while we were eating. One of the workers told the guy to leave and this guy proceeded to go on a nut and started cursing and threatening the workers. Two families/groups quickly exited the restaurant as fast as they could. I can't say I blamed them, we would have done the same but we were to far away from a door and would have had to pass this guy. To the DPD credit the undercovers got there within 4 to 5 minutes after it started. All the cops had to do was walk in and say, "Lets go" and and this guy turned into a choir boy. What do you think the people who fled Coney Island said to their suburban friends and co-workers about their trip to Detroit? Outside of the a guy threatening people and running around a restaurant which we ran out of it was a lot of fun? That was more bad word of mouth PR for downtown Detroit. I've had a few encounters with panhandlers at gas stations that went beyond having to just tell them no and had me seriously questioning my safety. Telling one panhandler, "Sorry, I don't have anything for you" just made him more aggressive and insistent that I give him something. He finally walked away when I in turn became verbally aggressive with him. (Message edited by rjk on March 09, 2007) | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 171 Registered: 09-2006 |
I really like the idea of putting panhandlers to work rather than ticketing them (like they are going to pay the fine????) . Now if we can solve how we get them to do the work we are in business, I would be quite willing to bet that many of them won't be too pleased if they think they are going to work, and like the old work crews of WW11, you fed them also,,,Kinda takes care of both needs. We still have a problem with the mental stability of some of them, who are not able to work properly or pay any fine. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 365 Registered: 08-2004 |
Yes, you are right. They overlook people running stop lights/signs, speeding, all which could lead to serious injury or death. I'd rather they start there, or are these too petty? So you think panhandling is petty crime? Why don't we just lump it in with attempted robbery and be done with it. Fining a homeless person makes about as much sense as suing a crackhead. | ||
Michigansheik Member Username: Michigansheik Post Number: 180 Registered: 09-2005 |
stop giving them money people!! | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1093 Registered: 12-2005 |
would this include people who approach you in gas stations and on the street with the "transportation problem" ploy--the one that begins with " 'Scuse me, 'Scuse me" replete with the decoy map or bus schedule (all dog-eared) and the same sad story about needing two dollars and seventy-five cent to get home. I've had the same guy pull the same routine at the same gas station two weeks in a row. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3778 Registered: 08-2004 |
What the city should do is set up panhandling decoys, and ticket the people who are giving out money to panhandlers...  Then watch the money source dry up! But I agree with Supersport... just what we need, another law that is unenforced... just like the car boombox law... we all see how that one is going... | ||
Benjo Member Username: Benjo Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2007 |
Having lived in the Cass Corridor for 3 years, I have mixed feelings about the homeless. Many of them are down on their luck, and I wouldn't give them money but I would hook them up with a cigarette, some food, or a beer every now and then if I was having one on my porch with my neighbors. In turn, they would look out for me as I am a small guy. However, I remember an incident around Easter a few years back that really pissed me off. I had one hell of a toothache, and I didn't make it to the bank to deposit my paycheck so I had to scrounge up some change to get some aspirin at CVS. When I was walking home down Warren, I was asked for some spare change and I politely replied that I didn't have any. After walking a few more steps I heard "Fuck you whitey!" and before I could turn around I was hit in the back of the head with an empty 1/2 pint bottle. That incident, in addition to my apartment getting broken into and everything I worked my ass off for getting stolen, as well as my car window getting smashed for a few quarts of oil, compelled me to move to SW Detroit where I never had any problems. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3157 Registered: 10-2003 |
Packmans' post made me laugh. There's one guy at the strip mall at W. Grand Blvd and Vernor who has been trying to get change for the bus downtown for a few years now... I don't see how another law is going to help...unless the homeless can pay the fine with empty bottles and cans, but it does give the cops an option. It's easy for those of us who live in the city to get accustomed to aggressive panhandling, but it gets out of hand sometimes, as Benjo notes above. Getting more people to come to the city and spend money becomes a tougher sell when your entertainment foray includes getting verbally abused, or having empty MD bottles tossed at you. The problem will continue to get worse until there are more mental-health treatment facilities open, or until they bring back the WPA and I'd expect that to happen sometime in the next century. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 500 Registered: 01-2005 |
Brilliant. Think of the money the city will get in fines. Why, maybe in a million years the city's debts will be paid in full, thanks to these homeless folks. (Message edited by 3rdworldcity on March 09, 2007) | ||
Njmikey Member Username: Njmikey Post Number: 54 Registered: 04-2005 |
As someone who works in NYC and travels to many different cities for business, I've seen my fair share of panhandlers. When I'm in Detroit (and I go often and always stay at the Ren Cen) I noticed that the panhandlers are much more aggressive. They'll actually follow you down the street asking for money after you say no. That sh*t does not fly most places. I guess a fine would work and it did in NYC although the rumor was that when Giuliani was mayor he used to have the NYPD round up the panhandlers and drive them an hour upstate to get rid of them. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1594 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sounds like a good idea overall. I live in the city and consider myself more of a social liberal than conservative, but I agree with Mrjoshua, it IS a problem that indirectly drives businesses and jobs out of the city. It's not like anyone is going to starve if this law goes into effect. Many of the "beggars" are non-homeless scammers as Gambling_man describes, and most of the rest use the money to buy booze or drugs, not food. For the very few who might spend the money on food, there are a number of shelters which provide meals to the homeless. (We should all be donating to these shelters, not to panhandlers.) And I assume it will still be legal to beg for food. Actually, fining people who give money as well would be a great idea... panhandling would pretty much vaporize if that were part of the law. Although that's pretty "out there"... I'm not sure any other city does this. Also, I should point out this bit from the article for those who say that other cities such as NYC, Chicago and DC also have panhandlers and do just fine: quote: | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 643 Registered: 10-2006 |
There are many more here in Charlotte NC, than in Detroit. Here in Charlotte they hang out at like the main intersection of downtown (probably akin to Campus Martius in Detroit) or in the court of your downtown high rise. My general impression is that while there are some in Detroit, the CoD does a much better job with them than does Charlotte, NC. Maybe its just the fact that it is warmer down here so there are more and they are out more often, who knows. | ||
Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2007 |
I empathize with the despair of extreme poverty, mental illness, and/or substance abuse. However, these things are not excuses for encroaching on the property or rights of other people. I think the city government is within the bounds of fairness and justice to fine those whose actions cross the line. On the other hand, this should give pause to those of us who have more than enough and who understand that we would not get far in life without help and support from the people in our lives. We need to give if we are able. I like the idea of finding the best relief/reclamation organizations in Detroit and contributing money and/or time. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2537 Registered: 02-2005 |
High taxes, a poor regional economy, and poor city services will drive businesses out of downtown a lot faster than bums. There are some famous pandhandler spots here in Ann Arbor...Nickels Arcade @ State, East U. at South U., outside of the Borders on Liberty St...yet the pedestrians just keep coming, the businesses keep thriving, and the downtown is fine. Something tells me that downtown Detroit doesn't have pedestrians because there are few long stretches that any person would need/want to walk (because there is so little street-level retail), and because so many people don't even go downtown because they're scared shitless anyway. It's not the bums. It seems Greektown has the highest concentrations of pandandlers. There aren't too many empty storefronts or hurting businesses in Greektown. Again, why hurt someone else if they aren't hurting us. If you think that someone asking you for a buck is "encroaching on the property rights of other people," you have serious issues. Personally, I think soliciters and on-street preachers/demonstrators are way more annoying, but again, there is no need to get rid of them. Detroit: let's focus on REAL issues. | ||
Blort Member Username: Blort Post Number: 56 Registered: 02-2007 |
Has anyone adressed the issue on how the hell a homeless person is suppose to pay a 25$ or 50$ fine? | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 371 Registered: 08-2004 |
No, Blort. It's called an exercise in futility. Much like everything else that is "enforced". | ||
Iddude313 Member Username: Iddude313 Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2005 |
They can pick up the trash they leave all over the place. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 730 Registered: 01-2006 |
Fuck the goddam panhandlers. Half of those pains in the ass can afford to pay the fucking fine. The rest should be assigned to work details which are so strenuous and lengthy that, the next time the no-account motherfucker considers hanging around and pestering responsible citizens for money, he (or she) will think fuckin' twice about it. I am good and god-damned sick of not being able to go ANYWHERE around this city without some sorry-asses trying to hit me up for money. And borrowing somebody's wheelchair so you can look even more down-and-out doesn't cut any ice with me, either. AND the punk-ass owners of some of these establishments where panhandlers hang out should think about the problem, too. There's a store right on my corner, but I don't go there much, anymore, because the owner shows disrespect for the community by allowing worthless shitheads to loiter around the lot, begging and being a general nuisance. Fuck them, and fuck him. As far as I'm concerned, the city could pick up all these human rats, seal 'em up in a giant sack, and drown them in the fucking river. Good motherfuckin' riddance, I say. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 731 Registered: 01-2006 |
And if any of you want to get all phonily sanctimonious on me, about my statement, have at it. I'll be back tomorrow, to cuss you out, too. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 587 Registered: 09-2005 |
Will this include all the middle class looking people who ask for money for local unnamed church "charities"? And I hope the cops have time when they're not shaking down panhandlers to deal with criminals in Detroit. Ravine: Let's consider the feasibility of your plan to put the panhandlers to work. Somehow they will have to be forced to show up at a worksite. How do you do that? Take down their addresses and pick them up? Put them in the jail that is already full? And what if they don't show up? And who is going to make sure they stay on the job? That all takes money. Now you could just have the cops collect the fines right there on the street because, let's face it, writing tickets to panhandlers is futile. But then, you have to police the police. And some panhandlers may not like getting shaken down and fight back. So now you have violence in place of someone asking someone for money. Giuliani had a good idea, but what suburb wants a busload of bums left on their street? And that costs money. (Message edited by themax on March 10, 2007) | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 732 Registered: 01-2006 |
Good point, Themax; scoop them the hell up, too, damnit. Streetcorner begging is streetcorner begging. I don't travel about in this city, getting in and out of my car, etc., because I'm on a fucking quest to see how many losers I can give away money to. I'm supporting my family, like I'm supposed to be doing. Everybody else can kiss my ass. There's a whole buncha sad stories in the Naked fuckin' City. | ||
Granmontrules Member Username: Granmontrules Post Number: 39 Registered: 01-2007 |
Most people are homeless due to mental illness. | ||
Eric_w Member Username: Eric_w Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2007 |
Considering the record Detroit has in collecting unpaid fines,taxes and other fees this won't work. I suspect more have homes and are just scam artists than we think. If a homeless panhandler doesn't pay his fine or go to court what then? Serve a warrant at their box under a freeway bridge? I spent a lot of time in Detroit in areas panhandlers frequent when I had a driving job-I just said "no sorry I can't help you". I did hand over some pop bottles a couple times. I'd like to see tough enforcement though-it seemed to work in NYC when Giuliani was Mayor.I've seen some people scared by them and I'm sure some won't go into Detroit because they're worried about being approached by them. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 637 Registered: 11-2003 |
This past summer one of the local news stations did a report on panhandlers. Of the 4 or 5 panhandlers that they observed all of them lived in area group homes. It's troubling that the state is suppose to be providing supervision for people with psychiatric problems and they are allowed to wander around the city for long stretches of time. Not to mention that they may be purchasing drugs with the money they collect which certainly won't help their already troubled situation. | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 224 Registered: 06-2006 |
It's been a very big problem all over the state for years. It was a trip to the DIA that brought us from Flint to Detroit. I was shocked we were asked for money just as our feet hit the ground at the DIA-at the Valet parking area. For heaven's sake! We weren't using the Valet parking because we are lazy or loaded with money. I needed a wheelchair at the time of the visit, and had limited mobility. The handicap parking wasn't close enough to the building, heck we couldn't even figure out where it was. I (a female) was traveling with my daughter and three grandchildren. I am starting to think Ravine has the right idea. Pick the panhandlers up right at the time of the situation and take them somewhere to work off their fine. I don't think they should be dumped into the river at all, but something needs to be done about this situation. I have been asked for money in Flint, Ypsi, Ann Arbor, Owosso(!), and Detroit. I have traveled to Fl, KC KS-MO, Europe, Chicago and haven't ever been asked for money in those places. And come to think of it, never even saw homeless wandering the streets either. It is an especially bad problem in MI, and I place blame on the start of it during the Reagan era. I feel sorry for someone who lived in Detroit and has to deal with this situation everyday. I can understand Ravine's attitude! This also reminded me of something that happened to me at Hazel Park Raceway. There was a bunch of homeless (or high) guys that used to sit up against the building. I was just standing there talking to someone in our group. One of those strangers reached up to my upper and inner thigh, inside my shorts (!) and asked me something. I couldn't hear what he said over the noise and I ran off without saying a word to anybody about it. I was freaked out. I still get the willies about it! Why would businesses or companies want their customers harassed like that? Why don't business owners pressure the City of Detroit to do something? Businesses have more sway with government than regular people usually. | ||
7051 Member Username: 7051 Post Number: 31 Registered: 02-2006 |
A plan to move ALL shelters and homeless aid groups out of midtown and downtown would definitely help. Do not move them into the neighborhoods either! An industrial area near the I-75 and I-94 area would be perfect. Perhaps the Packard plant or any of the other of millions of square feet of abandoned industrial space could be used! This idea accomplishes 4 objectives: 1. Keeps homeless out of high value and potentially high value areas. 2. Keeps them out of neighborhoods. 3. Makes use of large abandoned buildings which, unfortunately will never be used again because of size and location. 4. Provides shelter for the homeless. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 735 Registered: 01-2005 |
"But what do you expect.. they're homeless. At least for the most part." They are not homeless. Someone with a van brings the handicapped panhandlers downtown and drops them on the corners in all weather. How do you suppose the guy on a gurney used to get to Washington Blvd.? The people in wheelchairs? They live in group homes and the operators of those homes bring them downtown. I live in SW Detroit and its hard, hard to go to the market or the drugstore because, without exception, panhandlers will run up to my car as I park and ask for money. I have to get through a gauntlet of sorts to get to the store. I am convinced that they aren't homeless. They just need money for their drugs. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 339 Registered: 02-2006 |
Will they pay their fines in change? | ||
Fjw718 Member Username: Fjw718 Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ummm, the NYPD is being fined something like $11,000 per summons written due to being in contempt of court for not following a federal court order stating that panhandling is covered by the first amendment. No way this ban would hold up in federal court | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2543 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm pretty sure you're right, Fjw. Further up on this thread I saw the argument that panhandlers are infringing on our personal property rights / general well-being. Quite honestly, I'm made a lot more uncomfortable by people who stop be on the street to tell me about an event or some random petition/campaign. This happens around every corner in Ann Arbor, and continously on the Diag at UM, where people are always handing me crap I'm not interested in. People asking me to stop and listen to them for a minute on more is actually worse than giving 50 cents to a bum, because at the bum doesn't waste my time. The people that make me most uncomfortable are the religious evangelizers, and I hate to point fingers, but it's the Jehovah's witnesses. They feel they can talk to you whereever/whenever. They, again, make me feel more uncomfortable than bums. The point is, the first amendment doesn't allow us to get rid of any of these people, unless they hurt or threaten to hurt us. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2006 |
They won't pay the fines; warrants will be issued; the jails and courts will be clogged up much worse than they are now. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 704 Registered: 11-2004 |
The city should treat panhandling like a business and require them to obtain a license like any other street vendor. This would get around any First Amendment issues | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 249 Registered: 03-2006 |
I am not sure if fining them would be effective, but the problem needs to be addressed. I am approached by these people every time I come into the city and it gets old after a while. Last time was when bringing my kids down to a concert and I can't even get out of my car before a dude is waiting at my door with some BS about donating to his "church." Then while waiting in line, more bums and beggars bothering everyone. It isn't as if they sit on the corner with a tin cup and waiting for someone to drop in change, they get right into your face. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 404 Registered: 11-2005 |
The panhandlers in Detroit have got NOTHING on the panhandlers in San Francisco. They literally acost you there and heckle and cuss at you if you don't pay up. Had one follow me around calling me racist because I wouldn't help him "get a sandwich." While ticketing the homeless would be a waste of time, something needs to be done to help clean up the city's image and make it less threatening to suburbanites. Walking through Grand Circus after a Tigers game is insane. You can almost make it from one side to the other without ever stopping saying "sorry." Not how you want to portray your town to the out-of-town guests. Maybe the Council could outlaw panhandling in just certain areas? I don't have a problem with them on the side of the freeway onramps, for instance. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3808 Registered: 08-2004 |
After last summer's Preservation Wayne's Theatre Tour (on a Saturday, about noon) I went (alone) from the State Theatre to the Detroit Opera House for lunch. I decided to go thru the eastern part of GCP, since I hadn't been thru there in many years. Well there were about 4 people in the park, all looking down-and-out. It was almost like playing a game of PACMAN, as I was briskly walking thru the zig-zag of pathways trying to avoid them while heading towards the Opera House. I managed to avoid all 4 of them that way. On the way back (to my car) I noticed that there were more of the same, so I just walked on the north side of Adams to avoid them all. It's kinda sad that many people downtown will avoid going thru GCP, since it is such an oasis. But this gets annoying. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 539 Registered: 01-2005 |
Gistok: Panhandlers are clueless. (OK, OK, I won't use that word again. Sorry.) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8547 Registered: 10-2003 |
Distribute services for the homeless and panhandlers throughout the region. If people in the burbs want regionalism when it comes to water they should expect regionalism when it comes to social services and panhandlers. Shit the f'ers to Somerset and other malls in the region. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3810 Registered: 08-2004 |
LOL... 3WC... it was KARL that uses "clueless" a lot in the Non-Detroit threads... now we're gonna have to call you Karl Jr. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8548 Registered: 10-2003 |
You're going to call him a hamburger chain? | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 775 Registered: 01-2006 |
Oh fer God's sake. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 541 Registered: 01-2005 |
Gistok: I don't know him except thru his posts but I'd be honored. (And all this time I thought you were referring to me.) Also, Karl's Jr.'s are pretty good hamburgers if you're in CA and real hungry. Anyway, he's now got exclusive use of his favorite word. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3817 Registered: 08-2004 |
3WC... Karl is currently the favorite whipping boy of the left wingers on this forum. I used to spar with him... but he's not really all that bad. He just knows how to get under peoples skin, and sorta revels in it. One thing that I learned a long time ago... "the person who angers me, controls me"... | ||
Enduro Member Username: Enduro Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2006 |
Some of these guys are truly in a bad way and I feel for the them. The rest, the vast majority are total assholes and complete vultures. It's a real pain brining a girl downtown (or your parents or anyone else you want to convince living downtown is cool) and as soon as you step out of a car they are on you. Luckily I'm a big guy but this scares people from walking, going or living downtown. Smart people and the wannabe hip people can't really handle themselves and even if they mean well they don't want to open their wallet on a city street. There have been times when I sincerely did not feel like going to the Magic Stick or walk to Greektown because I knew on the way I would have to bullshit three or more of these types. Maybe a good law would be for the aggressive panhandlers and instead of a fine make it a harassment or even an assault charge. In our world of "mental abuse" I think I have heard verbage that would qualify as an assault on my person. Remember, New York was goofed on constantly by Letterman and the like. It wasn't until they cleaned up Times Square and the streets that it became the Disney (a little too Disney) Goodtime Tourist Trap. This sounds cold but the panhandlers seem to be running this berg sometimes. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 783 Registered: 01-2006 |
Well, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like over-aggressive panhandling could be considered as "disturbing the peace," since it can cause tax-paying, law-abiding citizens to NOT do business ("spend cash") in a particular area. I am not willing to accept that it is a fact of life with which we must deal. Assholes charging up on you, so close that you smell their fetid breath, is 'way different than a guy sitting on the sidewalk "spare change?"ing you, and the two activities should be judged differently. I agree, easily, that the latter is legal (although that person is loitering,) but there is no way that I buy into the argument that the Constitution protects the former. Horseshit. | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 188 Registered: 04-2006 |
On Tuesday (the 70 degree day last week) I went out of the office for a walk at lunch. Going up Griswold, there was a man knocking over a freep or detnews distributor box, in a manner like he has done it many times before. There were a lot of people out and about, but I was the only one near him. As I approached, I asked, "what are you doing?" He lunged at me and said he was hungry. I could tell he was very offended that I acknowledged him. I said, "well you are abusing private property and stealing money". He got so pissed off he started following me cussing and swearing at the top of his lungs...in front of everybody. Racist, sexist, classist comments, everybody was looking in our direction. A little humiliating, but if the newspapers are wondering why none of their paper boxes have money in them, this is why. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 668 Registered: 08-2005 |
 | ||
Ladyinabag Member Username: Ladyinabag Post Number: 99 Registered: 03-2007 |
This is a "Catch-22" if I ever heard it. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 424 Registered: 11-2005 |
I stopped by the Burger King at Lafayette and Trumbull to whip through the drive-through on my way into work today. A panhandler asked me for change WHILE I WAS ORDERING. This is a new one for me. Anyone else seen this? Granted, I don't eat much fast food, so maybe it's common. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 789 Registered: 01-2006 |
That combination of aggressive rudeness and stupidity is in the air, right around that area, seeping like a putrid contagion from that big building across the street. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 212 Registered: 02-2007 |
"I stopped by the Burger King at Lafayette and Trumbull to whip through the drive-through on my way into work today. A panhandler asked me for change WHILE I WAS ORDERING. This is a new one for me. Anyone else seen this? Granted, I don't eat much fast food, so maybe it's common." NEVER stop at that Burger King in particular. Always go to the one on Gratiot and St. Aubin. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 213 Registered: 02-2007 |
The Fort st. corridor has all sorts of panhandlers and alcoholics. One day (It was 90 degrees out if it recall in June) I was sitting outside the Post Office and this guy came stumbling down the sidewalk with his dog. He was fairly friendly. However, he stumbled right across the street to that liquor store to get him some type of alcohol. I had my baby nephew with me that day. I wasn't very fond of him interacting with us, so I sat there while he entertained my baby nephew with his dog. Also, my mother mentioned going into the Burger King on Lafayette and seeing homeless, panhandlers in there. Basically, I'm not fond of that area when it comes to the panhandling and alcoholics. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 426 Registered: 11-2005 |
The food is fine (for Burger King standards, anyway) at that location. I have never had a problem there. I was just taken aback that this guy was a) rude enough to interrupt my order and b) brazen enough to panhandle there. He was a younger-looking guy, though. Maybe he's newly homeless. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 228 Registered: 02-2007 |
True, but I also here there slower than a turtle at that location. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 429 Registered: 11-2005 |
Again, I'm not a frequent BK'er, but I was in and out in a couple of minutes there. The fries were hot and tasty, and the salad was surprisingly good. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1092 Registered: 04-2006 |
There is this one little white dude whose track is between the City County Building and the Buhl Building, he is one nasty mean guy, always asking for spare change with some sort of lame excuse. He has these screwy looking glasses and is always acting a bit hyper like he is on some sort of speed. Stay away from that dude, he is definitely too aggressive. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1093 Registered: 04-2006 |
There is this one little white dude whose track is between the City County Building and the Buhl Building, he is one nasty mean guy, always asking for spare change with some sort of lame excuse. He has these screwy looking glasses and is always acting a bit hyper like he is on some sort of speed. Stay away from that dude, he is definitely too aggressive. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1610 Registered: 11-2003 |
Fjw718 -- Good point on the constitutionality of the NYC ordinance, but according to the article there was already a previous Detroit ordinance which was declared unconstitutional: quote: So, I'd hope they'd be able to draft something the second time around which would hold up in court. Also, I remember San Francisco had a proposal up for vote sometime ago which outlawed aggressive panhandling, but not panhandling in general... that might be a better way to go. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 435 Registered: 11-2005 |
He has these screwy looking glasses and is always acting a bit hyper like he is on some sort of speed. Stay away from that dude, he is definitely too aggressive. I KNOW THAT GUY! I mean, not personally, of course. I've turned him down many times when walking downtown. He always is pleading almost to the point of tears or something. I think he told me one time that he needed to buy baby formula or something crazy. Right, dude. Sure. You nursin' that kid of yours Mickey's Ice? | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 459 Registered: 11-2005 |
Read more here: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070309/M ETRO01/703090384 Ya know, I just realized that the cutline says the panhandler is from Columbus, Ohio. Huh. Maybe he WAS telling the truth when he told me he needed bus fare. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 56 Registered: 05-2006 |
I love when I'm leaving the liquor store with a twelve pack in my hand. As soon as I take two steps out the door every bum in the general vicinity, which can be up to ten, is hitting me up for a beer. Then, after I don't give them a beer, they ask for change. After I don't give them change, they proceed to ask me for a cigarette. I had one guy follow me two blocks to my apartment door even after I repeatedly told him to "Get the fuck away from me". I just wish somebody would take all the scary people away. (Message edited by hans57 on March 20, 2007) | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 463 Registered: 11-2005 |
I love when I'm leaving the liquor store with a twelve pack in my hand. As soon as I take two steps out the door every bum in the general vicinity, which can be up to ten, is hitting me up for a beer. They can smell it from a mile away, like sharks to fresh chum. I like to call the phenomenon a "boozing frenzy." | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 57 Registered: 05-2006 |
Excellent rhymeswithrawk, I'm going to use that if you don't mind. (Message edited by hans57 on March 20, 2007) |
