 
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 11:39 pm: |    |
Back in November of 2006 it was reported by Fox 2 that some items of the late Jimmy Butsicaris were auctioned. One of the items mentioned in the newscast was a ring given to Jimmy B. by Alex Karras. My guess is that it may have been a Pro Bowl ring. Does anyone know where that auction took place or what some of the other items were that were sold ? The Lindell A.C. was one of a kind. Time marches on but the transit station won't replace the excitement that took place at the corner of Michigan and Cass. What is left of the famous old time bars in other cities ? Toots Shor in New York is long gone and so is Duke Zeibert's in Washington |
Paulc
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Username: Paulc
Post Number: 103
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 1:17 pm: | |
Whithorn11446 - Welcome to DY! I did not hear of any auction back in November... does anyone else on the forum know of this? Seems rather strange since Jimmy has been gone for so many years. Ahhhh... miss that old Lindell. Me and my friends were regulars / "members" of the old watering hall on Michigan and Cass. It's a bygone era... especially in the realm of "sports bars." |
Southofeight
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Username: Southofeight
Post Number: 71
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
Best bar in Detroit. Ever. Jimmy and Mel were some of the nicest guys around. Some friends of mine were getting hammered in there on a Sunday night when Mel took the autographed Norm Cash bat off the wall behind the bar and asked us if we wanted to "take a few cuts with it." There's four us, lined up like little kids, waiting to swing this bat.
But no, I never heard of an auction. I recall reading that when the Lindell closed, there would be an auction but I've yet to see or hear anything to that effect. |
Paulc
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Username: Paulc
Post Number: 105
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 1:30 pm: | |
Southofeight - Yeah, Mel made it almost a "virtual museum" under his watch. The bar items - to my knowledge remain with Johhny B. on the East Side. Whithorn was referring to an auction for Jimmy B's memorabilia - which I am unfamiliar with. Classic place - fantastic times. I wonder what Tyrone has been up to - miss him as well. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 7:15 pm: | |
I appreciate the welcome. I was surprised about the auction myself. I have no doubt that Jimmy and Johnny had many items they could not display in the bar. Probably watches, rings,etc. On the news report back in November they briefly displayed the ring from Alex Karras. I remember on the side of was something like "Karras" and "71" below that. Which was both his uniform number and the year the Lions cut him. They also showed a picture from the 1970's of Jimmy B. and Billy Martin. I'm hoping an institution like the Michigan Sports of Hall of Fame was able to purchase some of these items but I doubt it.
About a month ago I saw another item of Jimmy Butsicaris for sale on e-bay. It was an autographed baseball from the 1975 Detroit Tigers who lost over 100 games and had a 19 game losing streak. In addition to the baseball was a picture of Jimmy at a team party. I recognized Ron LeFlore in the picture. It was probably taken somewhere like the Raleigh House in Southfield. I believe Jim Campbell moved some team functions there after the Sheraton Cadillac was deteriorating.
My dad saw Norm Cash at the Lindell in the 1970's on many occasions. Norm (no pun intended) cashed many paychecks there. One thing he remembers is walking in there about 1973 and Billy really being a pain in the ass. He was drunk and looking for trouble. Since it was slow in there which was unusual in 1973 Billy may have chased some patrons out of the Lindell that night before arriving. Norm was from what I hear was always easy to deal with at the Lindell. Sonny Eliot at certain times was not so loveable to say the least. I would not be surprised if those times when things at Ch.4 were not always going well.
It was a great place and Detroit will never see something like that again. I know about the elephant, but a lot of people may not know that Teddy the wrestling bear also ate french fries at the Lindell while sitting on floor. I never saw a picture of that in there, but maybe Jimmy B. figured that could scare the bear. |
Old_southwest
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Username: Old_southwest
Post Number: 159
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 8:07 pm: | |
I went to high school with Andre.
I loved the burgers there. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 8:33 pm: | |
Ray1936
I was wondering if when you started with the DPD and throughout the 1960's whether the Lindell was one of the places considered off limits to all DPD personnel ? Especially, the fact the Lindell was under surveillance by DPD and possibly the FBI. At the time the Lindell and Grecian Gardens had their issues with law enforcement. Gus Colacasides and his little black book. The Lindell and Grecian Gardens shared many patrons in those days. I believe Joe Louisell(Lindell patron) represented Mr. Colacasides before Judge Piggins and Judge Bowles. Then again Joe Louisell helped Alex Karras get reinstated into the NFL for the 1964 season. |
Urbanoutdoors
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Username: Urbanoutdoors
Post Number: 135
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 9:50 pm: | |
I miss the Lindell so much. As a kid Jimmy would always give me something whether it was sports cards or a baseball the Lou and Tram autographed from their last game. He also Gave me a ball with the 1991 tigers autographs. My grandfather was good friends with the Butsicaris's and it was always my favorite place to go have a burger. when they tore it down last year it broke my heart. I agree the best bar Detroit ever had! |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:51 am: | |
One thing I regret is not having the chance to talk to Jimmy and Johnny about their days as "innkeepers". I have heard Alex Karras pulled a lot of pranks when they were located in the Lindell Hotel(parking lot) at Cass and Bagley. I don't know how the Lindell Hotel ranked compared to other flop houses, but it least it had a interesting bar. Then again the "fine" Michigan Avenue establishments such as the Crow Bar, Torpedo Bar, and the Busy King Bar probably did not have as diverse patronage. |
Smogboy
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Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 4724
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 1:51 am: | |
Such history in one little place. I frequented it a few times and always found the Lindell hospitable. I don't think Detroit has anything now that even comes close to connecting with its sports figures like the Lindell. |
Xd_brklyn
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Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 212
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:36 am: | |
Whithorn, Thanks so much for your story. As a kid, the Lindell AC was always larger than life. From the moment my Dad told me that was the place where Norm Cash drank beer that sense of awe never left me. Dusty and unkempt as it was in its later years, I always considered it a real honor to drink there.
If I have it right, Jimmy Butsicaris was also the official photographer for the Olympia. He had some great of photos of the Beatles and there was another priceless photo of Stevie Yzerman holding court at one of the tables before the start of the '95-96 season. (I'd take even a duplicate of these photos.)
Heard from Jimmy's son that the bar got its name "Lindell's Athletic Club" because the sportswriters needed something respectable sounding to cover up in print what was actually a good-time drinking establishment.
Personally, I was surprised to see it go so quietly.
(Message edited by xD_brklyn on March 09, 2007) |
Southofeight
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Username: Southofeight
Post Number: 74
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:06 pm: | |
Brklyn, I've seen that Yzerman shot. Would love to get my hands on one.
My favorite Mel story:
Andre The Giant was wrestling at Cobo, circa '81, and in those days, the events were held two or three nights consecutively. The Lindell was THE place for visiting teams to hang out, etc. and much the like the 800-pound elephant in the room, literally, in comes Andre.
One of the Lindell's regulars was a woman named Shirley, nicknamed "Detroit Shirl." Her thing was to bed as many visiting jocks as possible. This apparently earned her quite a reputation, so much so that athletes in town at the Lindell would sometimes ask about her or come looking for her.
Andre comes in and in a short time, Shirl sidles up next to him, they drink, talk and then leave together a few hours later. Shirl doesn't come in to the Lindell for a week. Mel is telling us that is driving everyone nuts, they want to know "You know, if he's REALLY a giant."
Shirl eventually comes in and Mel says they end up huddling around her for details, to which she's playing it cool.
"Well?" they ask.
"There's not much to tell," she said. "Down there, he's built just like any other man."
Mel said everyone was kind of disappointed by the news.
"But," she said, "he does have an eight-inch tongue." |
Paulc
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Username: Paulc
Post Number: 106
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 1:12 pm: | |
Nice to hear so many great stories and memories - they floated around like the beers in the Lindell. I have a VHS copy of "Jimmy B and Andre" - which was a CBS made-for-TV movie, filmed on location in the Lindell and various places around Detroit, starring Alex Karras and his wife Susan Clark. This film was the basis for the TV show "Webster," but the network would not use the "real names" due to the fact that they did not want to pay for the rights.
Whithorn - great stories, etc. - especially those referencing the old Lindell Hotel once across the way from the old Leland (I have one reprinted photo I borrowed from Mel of the original location) and the "heat" on them in the early 60's.
Xd_Brooklyn - It was indeed an honor to drink there. Well said. Jimmy was the official photographer for the Olympia and there was an actual "dark room" in the basement of the bar itself. I was lucky enough to receive an "original" of one of the Beatles photos from the Olympia set for my birthday. Mel said if he ever saw it on E-Bay, that he would kill me.  I believe him and would never give it up.
The Lindell AC name was from Detroit Times writer Doc Greene, who was poking some fun at the pretentiousness of the "Detroit Athletic Club" - or the "DAC."
Southofeight - Great story about Andre the Giant. Mel told me that one and I nearly pissed myself. Not sure if he told you how much ATG had to eat / drink at Lindell BEFORE they went to Greektown for dinner. Something to the tune of 10 burgers / fries / beers - for a snack!
But they were always very generous and treated regulars like family - you don't find many places like that around any more. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 1:51 pm: | |
Paulc and xd-Brooklyn: I did not know that Jimmy was the photographer. I heard a while back that Johnny did some side work for the Detroit Times as a photographer back in the 1950's. I'm glad that is corrected.
Doc Greene of the Detroit News was a also a silent partner in the Anchor Bar with Leo Derderian. Doc lived downtown near Sonny Eliot across from Lafayette Plaisance in those days. Doc spent a lot of time at the Lindell, Anchor Bar, London Chop House, the track(Hazel Park). Doc once managed to arrange a helicopter to land in the infield at Pimlico in Baltimore to take him to the airport to ensure arrival for Sonny Eliot's wedding in Detroit. Apparently, when the helicopter landed in the Pimlico infield people where expecting a movie star or politician to board it, and not Doc Greene.
I'm hoping Ray1936 will chime in on what Detroit Police Department policy in the 1960's was toward the Lindell considering their issues with law enforcement. I have seen DPD in there before many years later. However, in the 1960's certain people who frequented the Lindell spent a lot time in Federal Court over the years. I don't mean just Joe Louisell, but in fact some of his clients. |
Paulc
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Username: Paulc
Post Number: 107
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| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 2:08 pm: | |
Whithorn - Not sure of a connection between Jimmy and Detroit Times, although that is possible.
Great Doc Greene story - he seemed to be quite the character. I believe at one time that Johnny had a small engine plane that those guys would tinker around in. Sonny Elliot's office was located directly upstairs from the Lindell for many years. In face, my buddies and I helped Mel move out his belongings a few months prior to closing. The office looked like a time-warp - not sure if it was used all too often. Met Sonny a few times in the later years and he was cordial - but seemed like he really didn't want to be bothered. But he was in there with his family, so I could unserstand why.
Yeah, Ray1936's insight would be interesting to hear. Too young to have been there - but have heard stories of the Michigan Ave. strip and the "goings-on" in those days - not considered too savory. In later years the DPD were regular fixtures in the place.
Thanks Whithorn for sharing your memories - sounds like you will be a great addition to the forum. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 2:35 pm: | |
Thanks again Paulc. The original Lindell Hotel was condemned around 1963. I guess the city government was probably embarrassed having flop houses within 2 blocks of the Sheraton Cadillac. Since Jimmy and Johnny were friends with Jerry Cavanagh I always wondered what was behind that. I am curious if they received even enough money to make a dent in the debt with purchasing the building at Michigan and Cass. Originally, Jimmy and Johnny's dad was involved in the hotel bar, but he died in the late 1950's. I always had the feeling they made Alex the third partner because they felt he was one of their own, Greek and working class roots. Most of the years Alex played with the Lions he lived in the 6 Mile and Greenfield area and not Southfield like a lot of the athletes at the time. |
Paulc
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Username: Paulc
Post Number: 108
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 2:53 pm: | |
Whithorn - do you know what was located originally in the 1310 Michigan and Cass building prior to the Lindell's move in 63-64? Looks like it may have been mixed light industrial? I recall some old faded paint on the second floor advertising some form of business. I believe the building itself was early 20th century. I was in the basement numerous times and it went on forever. The original woodwork (bar back) from the Bagley location was "stored" (more like thrown) down there - it was interesting. I believe from recollection that J & J's dad helped them start the business in the late 1940's and both had loans from WWII. I have Lindell AC stationary with "your hosts" Jimmy, Johnny and Alex in the upper left-hand corner. I had heard that Alex became a partner only due to his one-year suspension, although the Greek connection was pretty tight. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 4:26 pm: | |
Paulc-I am unsure of exactly what was there myself. From what I could tell it was not a hotel before it became the Lindell A.C. in April 1963. In the 1958 Polk Directory I found a listing of 1300 Cass being a place of businees for temporary employment. My guess is it was related to finding temp jobs for residents of the various hotels on skid row. However, that is still not 1306 or 1310 Cass. I want to say 1306 Cass was the barber shop. I know 1519 Cass was the Lindell Hotel and it existed in 1915 and probably some years before that. I have attempted to date it back further. On the Detroit City property index website the 1310 Cass building was listed as being built in 1932. I have always wondered what building was originally in the Lindell parking lot. I will look further into it.
Actually, Alex was going through the process of becoming a partner before his suspension. He was involved with the Butsicaris brothers in selecting the building and learning the bar business in 1962. One of the reasons for the suspension besides the gambling was the partnership in the Lindell. He had to officially divest himself of the partnership to gain reinstatement for the 1964 season. Actually, Joe Louisell basically told Pete Rozelle to reinstate Alex or their would be problems from "other people" in Detroit. I am convinced that the reason Alex never made the Pro Football Hall of Fame is because of how Joe Louisell did this. Rozelle probably told the writers what happened off the record and they hold the grudge against ALex. I'll have to read Alex's book again, but Alex was a partner for more than one year. It took some time to get out of it with the liquor license and bank loans. Also, he may have been a silent partner for a few years. I will have to check out his book again from the late 1970's but I seem to remember Alex claiming he was involved with the Lindell as a silent partner until 1967. |
Paulc
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Username: Paulc
Post Number: 109
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 4:35 pm: | |
Whithorn11446 - Thanks for the info. It is a shame that Alex didn't make it into the Pro Football Hall of Fame - but your suspected reason would make sense - a lot of deeds and dealings in those days. Regardless, Alex made a good career for himself whatever he persued. Let me know what you find out. It's been nice chatting up our favorite bar. As their old "autograph" card reads (paraphrasing)..."You're going to a very very bad place..." (open card) "See you at the Lindell AC!" Cheers and have a good weekend. |
Xd_brklyn
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Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 213
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 4:56 pm: | |
Great thread. Thanks again Paulc and Whithorn for your stories, really appreciate them. Would also be curious to hear about the DPD and Lindell's. Definitely remember there always being at least one off-duty cop in the place the times I was there. |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1186
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 6:05 pm: | |
Paulc said: "Yeah, Ray1936's insight would be interesting to hear. Too young to have been there - but have heard stories of the Michigan Ave. strip and the "goings-on" in those days - not considered too savory. In later years the DPD were regular fixtures in the place"
Well, it was to a degree; not so much for the uniform guys but seems like the detectives liked to gather there. When I was working 10DB (Livernois) and had to go downtown for a court case, seems like me and my partner always made Lindell's for lunch. Burger, beer, and fries. Absolutely great.
Only time I recall running across uniforms there was after a hockey game; few of the guys that had that detail would stop in on the way home. About twice a year each Detective Bureau team had to work nights, and that month frequently found us chatting with the Butsacaris boys. One of our DB supervisors, Jimmy Caris, was a cousin of theirs (he Anglicized his name to shorten it.)
The big brass all hung out at Carl's Chop House. Lindell's was beneath them. Their loss. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 6:06 pm: | |
I appreciate people taking the time to read my post and sharing their own information.
The sad part is so many people with knowledge of that place are either gone or closer to the finish line then we would hope. Bob Talbert use to mention took he would like to write a book about the Lindell A.C. Well, he never did take the opportunity to do that. Norm Cash is gone, Jimmy Butsicaris is gone, plus Sonny Eliot and Johnny B. are getting up there. Mel was a kid in the 1950's and 1960's so he probably was not there at night with Jimmy in those days except maybe on the weekends if at all. Mel once told me about the game used goal stick Terry Sawchuk gave him as a kid the last time I was there in 2002.
This was the only bar in Detroit I know of where one had the chance to see a bookmaker, a hit man, Miss America(Pam Eldred 1970), clergy, politicians, an athlete and/or entertainer all in the same night. |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 6:14 pm: | |
Whithorn, I don't know that the Lindell was ever under DPD surveillance. I worked Vice briefly in the early sixties, and the Greecian Gardens and Liakon was, indeed, under regular surveillance, but not the Lindell. The thrust of the surveillance was for after-hours liquor sales and for the Barbut game in the back room. I don't think it was ever raided, just kind of a harassment surveillance.
For you young'uns, Barbut (Bar-boot) was a Greek dice game. Rumor passed along to me is that it was played for big dough in the back rooms, but I never personally witnessed a game. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 6:27 pm: | |
Ray1936,
The reason I ask about Lindell A.C. surveillance was because law enforcement brought to the attention of Detroit Lions the incident in 1962 where Alex Karras, Wayne Walker, Jimmy Butsicaris, possibly John Gordy decided to travel on a bus back from Cleveland to Detroit instead of the team bus. The Lions had an exhibition game there. Apparently the bus was allegedly rented by Tony Jack whom I believe you once mentioned seeing at Federal Court. Edwin J. Anderson(Pres. of Lions) told Karras to get out of the bar business and the Lindell was full of "undesirable people". Supposedly the Lions were contacted by DPD brass(not sure if George Edwards) that Karras was friendly with gamblers. Then the NFL decided to look into Alex's business as I'm sure you remember.
(Message edited by Whithorn11446 on March 09, 2007) |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 7:49 pm: | |
Whithorn, I only remember that very vaguely. 1962 was a banner year for DPD crackdown on the local Cosa Nostra bosses and associates, as they publicized a chart showing who they believed to be made members. Chief of Detectives was Vince Piersante at that time, and he was page one for months in mid 1962. But, hey, I was hoofin' a beat at that time in Western Market; I was more concerned about rats in the alley, not ones in Cadillacs.
Anyway, because of the DPD publicly showing that "Mafia" chart to all, the press for years after when naming one of the goons would add, "who is a Mafia associate, according to information from the Detroit Police Department". And I don't think the DPD ever had a lawsuit come down the pike from any of the goombas.
(Message edited by Ray1936 on March 09, 2007) |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 8:16 pm: | |
Ray1936,
From a few of the former DPD people I talked to they said George Edwards was not a beloved figure. Basically, Vincent Piersante and George Edwards were allies on investigations against alleged underworld figures in Detroit during the early 1960's. Supposedly, certain factions at the top like the Berg brothers were working to undermine Edwards and Piersante. I believe Piersante later worked for Frank Kelley in the AG's office.
In terms of Karras I think the NFL felt Alex was in a position to consider shaving points or helping to throw games. Karras thought gambling was a way of life and grew up in that atmosphere in Gary,IN. Were you ever in the Lindell when it was in the hotel at Cass and Bagley ? Did you find the atmosphere at the hotel different compared to Michigan and Cass ? |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1190
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 9:33 pm: | |
Nope, never was in the Cass and Bagley location. I only remember George Edwards as rather a mousy figure; couldn't care less about the rank and file. Jim and Louis Berg, on the other hand, cared much.
Funny thing back then. Your chances of getting promoted to Inspector hinged on whether you and/or the administration was Masonic or K of C. It swung back and forth. (P.S.: I'm neither. Prolly explains why I retired as a dinky sergeant. ) |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 10:46 pm: | |
Ray1936
Did you notice any well known people the instances you were at the Lindell A.C.? More specifically jocks, political hacks, entertainers, media types ?
Sounds like the Berg brothers were casualties of Edwards. If the rank and file disliked Edwards that much or not respected him sounds that could have been part of the reason why Cavanagh replaced Edwards with Ray Girardin. Both Ray Girardin and Inspector Paul Sheridan supposedly use to hang out at the Anchor Bar. Perhaps that is where the the "healing" process began within the brass. I know of two DPD (one uniform sergeant and one detective sergeant)who lost any chances of making Lieutenant when Coleman became boss. Then again, I believe that was very common. Isn't it true Coleman had to approve any department promotion from Lieutenant and above ? Past DPD politics is probably its own thread. |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1194
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 11:20 am: | |
Ran into the Barkley brothers from the NHL once, only remember that because they were introduced to me by a mutual friend. Other than that, I never paid much never-no-mind to who was there.
When Coleman became Master....uh...Mayor....yeah, you had to shell out $500 to a grand for his fundraisers to be considered for a bump up. Those who didn't buy a ticket were really blacklisted. Didn't apply to me because I never really tried for Lieutenant (was a union officer so I wasn't going anywhere anyway).
I think Ray Girardin had a cot in a back room at the Anchor bar. Rumor has it he spent all his off time there. Sure was a pruny, shrivelled-up little guy. I don't think he was 5-4, 130 pounds at best.
A tip of my hat to you for spelling "Cavanagh" correctly. Nine out of ten folks mis-spell it!! |
Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag
Post Number: 68
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
I have to say this. I had a job at Lindell AC as a waitress. You had to pool your tips. If you got caught keeping your own tips you were fired. Not only did you have to tip a busboy but, the bosses would make you give tips to the cook....which meant that the owner would only have to pay the cook 1/2 of minimum wage. I would go home with about $15.00 a day in tips if I was lucky. This is illegal according to Michigan law. The tip is between the waitress and the customer and the waitress is not required to share a tip even with the busboy. I found this practice to be extremely chicken feces, and wound up quitting because of it. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
Ray1936
Thanks for the compliment about spelling Jerry Cavanagh's name correctly. I have even noticed some Irish publications have misspelled his name. Was one of the Barkley brothers the former Detroit Red Wing defenseman Doug Barkley who ended up taking a stick to the eye in the mid-1960's and had to stop playing ?
Yes, the former two DPD I knew would have rather died than support Coleman any way. The uniformed Sergeant voted for Nichols in 1973 despite the fact he had serious issues with Nichols and Spreen. This matter involved a letter he wrote to the Detroit Free Press around 1969 calling the DPD "grossly mismanaged". How he saved his job is a story by itself. Were you a DPOA officer when Carl Parsell was active in union business ?
(Message edited by Whithorn11446 on March 10, 2007) |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1197
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| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 7:17 pm: | |
Um....can't even remember their first names...but these brothers were both still playing in the early 70s for St. Louis.
Not with DPOA...was Secretary of the Lts. & Sgts. Association for four years. But I knew Carl well from even before he was DPOA Prexy. He used to do rush hour stationary traffic at Joy Road and Grand River back in the fifties.
Worked on Nichols' campaign back in '73. Lot of work for naught. I still think John blew it himself by refusing to resign as Commissioner when Mayor Gribbs asked him to. Turned a lot of folks off with his arrogance on that one. Oh, and his wife, Jean, shot off her big mouth more than once and inserted her size eight right into it.
|
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 4:52 pm: | |
Ray1936,
The brothers that I know of that played with St. Louis in the early 1970's were the Plager brothers;Barclay, Bill, and Bob. Barclay and Bill came into the league as a result of the 1967-68 expansion from 6 to 12 teams. At that time St. Louis was probably the best of the expansion teams. However, Philadelphia ended up being the first expansion team with the Stanley Cup.
Nice pic !! Was that your truck and was the picture taken in a Northwest Detroit neighborhood ? John Nichols I think needed everything to go perfectly to have any chance of winning in 1973. Besides the issues you cited with Roman Gribbs, Jean Nichols, etc. I believe at one time Jean Nichols was one of the few women in DPD and that's how they met. I'm sure he also lost some votes between the August primary and November runoff because of residents leaving. None of the precincts were close in that election as I'm sure you remember. They went all Nichols or all Coleman. I was told by the DPD Sergeant who wrote the infamous letter to the Detroit Free Press that Inspector Anthony Bertoni may have become Police Commissioner if Nichols had won. However, I thought that Henry Buffa was Nichols closest ally in DPD. Do you remember what the word was at the time about that ?
Was Girardin tenure a K of C administration and Nichols a Masonic administration ? Was Spreen and Murphy around long enough to have become any kind of administration ?
Ladyinabag
I do remember that at the Lindell when paying at the cash register a basket to put the tips in. I can't speak about how the Butsicaris brothers handled the staff. Did you work with current Detroit News writer Terry Foster while you there or his mother ? |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1201
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 8:34 pm: | |
Yeah, Plager brothers. Told you I never paid much attention.
Jean Nichols was a "Policewoman", as they called them back then. Their duties were pretty confined to child abuse and sex crimes back then. No patrol work or anything like we see today.
Tony Bertoni probably would have been Commissioner had Nichols won, but I don't think anything would have stopped the 'white flight' of the era. Tony eventually became the U.S.Marshal for the Detroit district after he retired. Good man. Never heard anyone say a bad word about him.
Can't tell about religious preferences. Since I ain't much of anything, none of that matters to me.
Oh...the picture...yeah, that was my pickup parked on Fargo at Houghton. Burned the clutch out and it never did run right after the re-build. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 9:15 pm: | |
Tony Bertoni saved the job of the DPD sergeant I was referring to. Tony Bertoni in the 1960's lived in the vicinity of Detroit City Airport. I believe he was Central District Inspector at the time of the riots in '67. Did he make Superintendent before leaving for the U.S. Marshal office ? The sergeant also had some public support from Mary Beck before she left the Common Council.
I'm sure you are correct about Nichols winning not changing the "white flight" era. It may have slowed the movement of the World War II generation out of the city, but the baby boomers that were raised in Detroit were not going to remain in Detroit.
It seemed like the 1960's was the heyday of the Irish Mafia in Detroit. With Jerry Cavanagh, Jim Brickley, Vince Brennan, Ed Carey, etc. I guess I was asking that question about K of C vs Masonic to see if that was true with DPD and promotions in those days. I can't prove it but it seems the DPD in the 1960's may have been mostly Catholic.
About the pic....Were you one of those many in Detroit back then who could not park in the driveway if someone on the other side of the street was parking opposite your driveway ? |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1205
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 10:27 pm: | |
"Did he make Superintendent before leaving for the U.S. Marshal office ?"
I don't recall....let me dig into some of my archives and see if I can answer that one.
Nor do I recall those parking restrictions. Never applied to me, anyway; streets were plenty wide wherever I lived.
RE: Irish Mafia.....how could you possibly leave out Jack Kelley??? |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1206
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 10:59 pm: | |
Okay...found it. Here's the list of Superintendents of the DPD since 1940:
Louis L. Berg, 1940-1944
Alfred A. Siska, 1944-1945
Edwin Morgan, 1945-1955
Jack Harvill, 1955-1958
Louis J. Berg, 1958-1963
Eugene A. Reuter, 1963-1968
John F. Nichols, 1968-1970
Charles H. Gentry, 1970-1973
Anthony Bertoni, 1973-1975
In 1975 the rank was eliminated when the Department was re-structured with a five-person Police Commission and a Chief of Police.
Prior to that, there was a single Police Commissioner. They were from 1940 on:
Frank D. Eaman, 1940-1942
John H. Witherspoon, 1942-1943
John F. Ballinger, 1943-1948
Harry S. Toy, 1948-1950
George F. Boos, 1950-1952
Donald S. Leonard, 1952-1954
Edward S. Piggins, 1954-1958
Herbert W. Hart, 1958-1962
George Edwards, 1962-1963
Ray Girardin, 1963-1968
Johannes F. Spreen, 1968-1970
Patrick V. Murphy, 1970
John F. Nichols, 1970-1973
Philip G. Tannian, 1973-1974
And, as noted above, the single commissioner yielded to the 5-person Board of Commissioners in 1975. Note also that Patrick Murphy, a carpetbagger from the NYPD, served only nine months in 1970. Obviously, his impact on the department was negligible. He was also a jerk. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 20
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 11:22 pm: | |
RE: Irish Mafia.....how could you possibly leave out Jack Kelley???
I stand corrected. I'm not sure if Jack Kelley had a position in one of the Building trade unions or within the Cavanagh administration during the 1960's. I think the first time Jack Kelley was elected to council was around 1973. I should have included Jack Kelley, Joe B. Sullivan, Cliff Sullivan, Pat McNamara also. I think Jack Kelley nailed a condemned sign to the Anchor Bar during the riot in 1967 to help Leo draw less attention to the fact he was illegally open, but Leo loved to break laws like that anyway. I have a hunch Leo may have had to bring Jack Kelley along for one of those 3 A.M. visits with Father Kern at the Holy Trinity rectory.
Thanks for taking a look on the Tony Bertoni matter.
Let me see if I can describe this well. In certain areas on the east side of Detroit the driveway was an issue. On the street Whithorn for instance near Detroit City Airport and some other streets in the neighborhood most lot sizes were 32 X 110. Since the cars were bigger in the 1960's and early 1970's many people had difficulty backing up far enough because a car was directly behind on the other side street. Consequently, when going forward they lacked enough clearance of another car or the curb/grass along the street. Basically, many neighborhood people skipped parking in the drive way to avoid the hassle. Having the city plow those streets in the winter back then would have turned into a disaster. The point is moot since half of the houses on the block are gone now. The battle between the house and the fence and which one you might hit was another adventure when trying to make it up to the garage made for a 1926 Model T Ford. Needless to say a 1965 Chevy did not fit. |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:14 pm: | |
Or an Olds 98. I imagine there were places on the west side that were the same, especially inside the Boulevard. Lot of real skinny streets there.
I think Jack Kelly was a department head in the Department of Buildings and Safety Engineering when he won his seat on the council. Whatever, he was always a tradesman. I'd love to see a bio on him; quite a character. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 10:12 pm: | |
Ray1936,
Again thanks for taking the time to post that information. Tony Bertoni had the "honor" of being the last Superintendent. I guess the timing was right to get out. Coleman was busy throwing dirt on the coffin and in 1975-1976 he could probably still sell his house without giving it away to a broker.
I remember that Jack Kelley while on the City Council employed Bill Reedy as an aide. Bill Reedy, Billy Martin, and Art Fowler(Pitching coach-Billy's drinking buddy-Billy's bodyguard) use to frequent the Lindell, Eastman's Gaslight, and sometimes the Coach House bar. Reedy had a place on Michigan Ave. for awhile where Jack spent some time after going on the wagon. It wouldn't surprise me if Reedy lent a helping hand to Jack Kelley along the way in some establishment. Was Charles Gentry your inspector when working at Precinct 10 ? |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1214
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 10:27 pm: | |
I don't think so, but for the life of me I can't remember who the CO was at #10 at that time. Since I was in the DB, the uniform precinct brass didn't have much to do with us anyway. Was much more concerned who the DB Lieutenant was, and I had a guy named John Truchly who was a prince. Damn good detective, too; learned a ton from him.
Y'know, Eastman's Gaslight always looked so inviting from the outside, and I don't think I ever went in.
On the other hand, across the street (Elmhurst) from the 10th Precinct station was a bar names "Oscar's". Many a day Truchly would call a 4 p.m. "meeting at the annex", meaning Oscar's. We'd all have a couple of beers and shoot the shit. Great comraderie back then. |
Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag
Post Number: 103
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 4:25 pm: | |
Ray-
What year are you talking about here? What precinct were you out of? Eastman's Gaslight was really small inside. You wouldn't believe how small from just looking at it from the outside....and junky too. When did you retire? I used to work at Bermans as a bartender. Did you ever go in there? I met the owner at the 8 Mile Big Boy when I was in high school. He went to Pershing.
(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 17, 2007) |
Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1227
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 5:04 pm: | |
Was working at #10 from 1969 to 1972. Left there to go back to Motorcycle Division. Retired from the Chief's Staff in 1984. No, not familiar with Berman's at all. |
3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 557
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 5:05 pm: | |
Ladyinabag: Was the owner Joe Stanich when you worked there? Berman's had the best thin sliced fried potatoes (a signature dish, right?) |
Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag
Post Number: 104
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
Yes, Joe Stanich. He owned another small place on 8 Mile that was closed down. I was actually a bartender. I never did eat there. Does he still own Ye Cracker Barrel? I haven't seen him in about 20 years....wait a minute....almost 30 years. How do you know Joe? When did you go in there, before the mess, during the mess, or after the mess? I worked there after the mess just to help him out a bit. Business was bad, of course, because of.
(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 17, 2007) |
3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 558
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 9:54 pm: | |
Joe is a long time friend. His Ye Old Cracker Barrel on Grand River was closed several years ago (say, 10) when Ilitch and DTE bought most of the block before the new stadium site (while it was behind the Fox, before moving across Woodward)was announced. The bar was demolished.
Joe owns the "new" Cracker Barrel bar on the ground floor of the Michigan Building on Bagley between Clifford and Grand River (w/i sight of the Berman's building on Times Square.) He's been there for at least ten years. I go there on business once or twice a week and usually stop in at the bar for a great grilled chicken sandwich and the best homemade soup downtown. Joe's there to handle the bar during lunch. |
Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag
Post Number: 107
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 10:38 pm: | |
I'm going to have to make a run down to see him. I haven't seen him in a long time. He's a nice fellow. We were pretty good friends.
(Message edited by ladyinabag on March 18, 2007) |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 26
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 3:39 pm: | |
Paulc and Xd_brklyn-It was nice for Ray1936 to provide some insight about the Lindell, DPD and those years. I may have to start a separate thread about that era of DPD to ask him other questions.
In terms of the Lindell and what groups you would think it would be off limits for the subject of referees and umpires comes to mind. I'm guessing that to this day players and officials still stay in different hotels. When most of the baseball teams stayed at the Sheraton Cadillac, many umpires stayed at the Pick Fort Shelby. Supposedly one of the exceptions about teams staying at Sheraton Cadillac was the New York Yankees when Del Webb had an an ownership interest and also was involved with Hiltons. As a result the Yankees stayed at the Statler Hilton instead. Anyway, I remember a picture in the Lindell of former American League umpire Frank Umont, Jimmy Butsicaris, and Doc Greene together. This picture was probably taken in the early 1960's. Since certain things were more strict back then it surprises me that umpires would frequent the Lindell with the potential of fights with players, which brings to mind a story about umpires and bars told to me by former Detroit Tiger Outfielder Jim Northrup. One time I had the chance to talk with Jim Northrup and I brought up the Lindell. He mentioned that Norm Cash did have a room upstairs to crash anytime he wanted, but he also told a story involving Emmett Ashford who became the black umpire in MLB. Northrup said they were playing a game where Ashford was behind the plate and both teams were giving him a difficult time about the strike zone. Amazing how certain things never change ! Well, Ashford called Northrup out on a pitch that was clearly outside and naturally they had some words about it. After the game Northrup decided to hit the Lindell because he heard Ashford sometimes went there. Well, Northrup finds Emmett Ashford there having a beer in a corner by himself. Northrup approaches Ashford and they start "talking". After a while things cool down and they actually have a conversation for a couple of hours. Northrup said from that conversation he learned a great deal about umpires that helped him through the years. It still did not change his opinion that all umpires with the exception of Nestor Chylak were not worth a damn and John Rice was bought and paid for by bookmakers in Chicago, but that conversation served a purpose. |
Paulc
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Username: Paulc
Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 3:54 pm: | |
Yes - Ray1936 thanks for your insight from a DPD / experience perspective.
And Whithorn - great story. An entirely different era. Maybe I'll see you one day at an FSC meet-up and we can all wax Lindell stories. I'll wear my red "Lindell AC Detroit" windbreaker - my good luck charm for Opening Day. |
Ladyinabag
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Username: Ladyinabag
Post Number: 142
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 1:21 pm: | |
3rdworldcity-
I tried to get a number from information today for Ye Olde Cracker Barrel....NADA. They didn't have a general number for the Michigan Building either. Now what? Get me the number and post it here. I would be most appreciative.
LAIB |
Djack
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Username: Djack
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
for old lindell ac fans if there are any questions about it i would be glad to answer to the best of my ability i am a family member and worked there for 20 years with jimmy |
Xd_brklyn
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Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 220
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 5:44 pm: | |
Djack,
Thanks so much. I would like to know some of visiting ballplayers who were at Lindell AC in the day. When I talked to Mel he mentioned Carl Yastrzemski, and of course, Billy Martin, but how about Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford, Boog Powell, Harmon Killebrew or lesser knowns, like NYer Roy White or Bill Melton of the White Sox?
Just saw the movie "Toots" about Toots Shorr and of course, that movie got me thinking about Lindell AC again.
Cheers. |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:49 pm: | |
Paulc,
I consulted a 1958 City of Detroit Polk Directory and looked up some information about the Lindell location of 1300 Cass. I remember at various times seeing the Lindell listed with an address of 1300 Cass, 1306 Cass, and 1310 Cass. I found the following information for the east side of Cass Ave. from Michigan Ave to Times Square
1300 Andrews Shoe Vateria Shoe repair
1306 Cadillac Employment Agency
1312 Fruit Juice bar (Fruit Juice dealer)
1314 William Farr, Watchmaker
1316 Vacant
1320 K & K Delicatessen & Restaurant
1328 Cass State Market grocery
1330 Yale Cleaners & Tailors
1334-36 Manpower Inc. Employment Agency
1340-46 Fay Curry Dry Goods
Time Square St. begins
I'm guessing this means 1300-1314 was in the building that became the Lindell A.C. in 1963. The addresses of 1316-1346 appear to have become the Lindell A.C. parking lot. I have all sorts of questions about this and hopefully Djack is willing to forgive me for my curiosity.
(Message edited by Whithorn11446 on April 09, 2007) |
Djack
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Username: Djack
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:11 am: | |
Xd-brkln- billy martin would come in when he was in town, jimmy was his best man at his wedding mickey would come in rarely if he was in town , they were both drunk in the bar after jimmies roast,boog powell would call jimmy ,we always had harmon,s bat behind the bar for problems,many of the lessor knowns would come in and jimmy would treat them all like stars |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 32
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:18 am: | |
Djack,
I remember talking to Jim Northrup about Norm Cash and Jim said that Norm had a place upstairs at the Lindell to crash if he couldn't make it back to where he was staying. Most of the years during the baseball season, did Norm live downtown at the Leland or Townhouse Apartments on First St. ? I heard that Norm went back to Texas after the season until about the early 1970's
(Message edited by Whithorn11446 on April 10, 2007) |
Djack
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Username: Djack
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:21 am: | |
Whithorn11446 you are right if you went in the basement of the lindell you could see the dividers of all the different stores, when jimmy and john bought the building they opened up all the floors to make an open area for the bar all i know is they bought the building because it was close to their old location and the price was right |
Djack
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Username: Djack
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:27 am: | |
whithorn11446 i am not sure about that but i do remember him and his wife coming to the bar quite a bit in the late 70,s he was one of the nicest and funniest person,s i ever met in my years at the bar but i will ask the barmaid who was there in the 60,s that question |
Djack
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Username: Djack
Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:44 am: | |
whithorn11446 my wife and i decided to auction some of jimmies private collection off because we have kept the things that have meaning and some of these things were just sitting in a safe collecting dust maybe later date we will offer more |
Whithorn11446
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Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 33
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 1:01 am: | |
Djack,
I do remember seeing the ring Alex Karras gave to Jimmy on Ch.2 briefly back in November. I'm guessing the ring was a Pro Bowl ring or something since Alex didn't leave the Lions on the best of terms. I doubt it was a gift from Bill Ford or Russ Thomas. Its obviously none of my business but its still sad that after the stuff Jimmy, John, and Alex went through in the 1960's that certain things that shouldn't change did in fact change later on. |
Sf_mike
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Username: Sf_mike
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 1:11 am: | |
My Dad took me there in the late 80s after a Wings game when I was really young and Jimmy gave me a hockey stick from an NHL game a few nights before. The stick is still in my parent's basement somewhere. |
Xd_brklyn
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Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 221
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 5:04 pm: | |
Djack,
Killebrew and Boog Powell were admired, but often lethal to the hopes of many Tiger fans like myself back then.
Glad to think of them sharing the same bar with our Tigers at the end of the day.
Now, Jimmy had a roast with Martin and Mantle in attendance? If it's not too much trouble, can you tell us a bit more about the roast? Like the location and some of the folk roasting or attending.
Thanks again, and before I forget, welcome to the Forum. |
Djack
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Username: Djack
Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 5:33 pm: | |
Xd_brklyn jimmy was roasted at the barrister house in harper woods in 1979 in attendance was billy martin,norm cash,mike lucci,mickey mantle,bob lanier,milton berle,jim branstatter, bill bonds,sonny eliot,al ackerman ,after all drank all night at the lindell |
Farrer
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Username: Farrer
Post Number: 607
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 5:51 pm: | |
quote:Xd_brklyn jimmy was roasted at the barrister house in harper woods in 1979 in attendance was billy martin,norm cash,mike lucci,mickey mantle,bob lanier,milton berle,jim branstatter, bill bonds,sonny eliot,al ackerman ,after all drank all night at the lindell
Wow. Uncle Miltie, too. Thanks all for this thread. |
Whithorn11446
Member
Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 40
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:22 am: | |
Djack,
If you are able to look into that it would be interesting to me at least. Also, a belated welcome to the thread. Anybody I ever knew that had a chance to say hello or talk to Norm Cash for a few minutes always said he was the most likeable of any of the athletes/celebrities they encountered. My dad saw him there quite a bit in the early 1970's. He told me about going up to the bar to get something and didn't want to say anything to Norm for a couple of reasons. First, he didn't want to bother him since the Lindell had a reputation of being a place athletes could frequent without a hassle. Second, the Tigers had lost that night. Anyway, Norm said hello to my dad and made small talk for a few minutes while my dad was waiting for something. So whenever he did see Norm in there after that he would say hello(without bothering) him because #25 was approachable.
He had said the two things he will always remember Norm for(like many others I'm sure) are swinging those bats in the on deck circle and also the way he took his last swing before leaving for the batter's box. Second, some of the jokes(locker room variety) Norm would tell and make Jimmy and Sonny laugh non-stop. I heard Norm a lot of time wore jeans, T-Shirt and boots into the Lindell. When the article was in Hour Detroit a few years ago showing a picture of Norm in a suit at the original Lindell, my dad laughed at the formality. I'm guessing the only way Norm showed up there in a suit was if he stopped in after arriving from a road trip that night, or he was at some function before requiring formality. I don't think Jimmy and John played favorites with people but it wouldn't surprise me if deep down in their hearts Norm was their all time favorite athlete. At the very least their all time favorite Tiger.
I heard Dean stopped at the Lindell A.C. as well. Was Jimmy as close to Dean Martin as compared to Milton Berle for instance ? |
Djack
Member
Username: Djack
Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 6:09 pm: | |
Whithorn11446 yes norm was a favorite of jimmies,norm even gave jimmy his watch that he got for playing in the All-star game at tiger stadium ,dean martin would come in after playing the elmwood casino in windsor and they would all go to some deli by the Fox but he was a closer friend to Uncle miltie |
Andrea547
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Username: Andrea547
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 1:40 pm: | |
Djack,
Do you remember an after hours bar near the original cass and bagley location? I believe it was owned by a arabic man. His name is Tom, he was a big guy and his fathers name is Alexander. It was closed in 1958 after a raid. I believe he went to jail for it. He was good friends with Jimmy B. I am trying to remember his last name and the name of the bar he owned. Do you remember?
Thanks. |