  Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2007 |
I used to spend some time at the "Soup Kitchen", why did it close...? Why did the area and all those cool paces die...? chuckles | ||
Tarkus Member Username: Tarkus Post Number: 249 Registered: 04-2006 |
The city tried buying up all the land for the casino's. Then it all fell thru. The city was left with worthless property. | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 14 Registered: 02-2007 |
Thanks for the info, tis a shame no one ever tried to restart the various pub's and such... chuckles (Message edited by chuckles on February 04, 2007) | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 120 Registered: 11-2006 |
Will this area now be part of the riverfront housing revitalization? If so, then there is still some good to come of it. | ||
Tony_box_42 Member Username: Tony_box_42 Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 |
This is a Detroit phenomenon. With all vacant property and abandoned buildings in this town why do the planers always insist on destroying vibrant neighborhoods. City Airport project is another example.Runway to nowhere.That just cut the town in half. " Pole Town " plant that destroyed homes. Chrysler plant that cut off the east side access streets. I am in favor of industrial progress. I know it is necessary. It seems to me the way these projects are designed the only thing they accomplish is dividing the city into sections turning neighborhoods into empty lots and putting small businesses out of business. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 932 Registered: 04-2006 |
Mayor Archer killed the goose that laid the golden egg because he traded the cow for a hand-full of magic beans. Its death was a very poorly executed plan by his adminstration. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5477 Registered: 02-2004 |
Peter Pan Micheal Jackson and Don Barden wants to building is Never Neverland Casino at the Rivertown area, but failed from the city CLOWNSIL'S vote. So Rivertown is no more for the moment. Let's make room for the expansion of Asian Village. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 80 Registered: 01-2007 |
Rivertown should be revitalized just as it stands without rolling over the existing buildings . Itll make a great place to hang out once the population comes up again. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2361 Registered: 10-2004 |
Other than providing a small number of low-pay service-sector jobs, all the casinos just suck money permanently out of Detroit and Michigan. It's an overall loss to the community because that money lost could have been better spent here and circulated longer (and provided more income, jobs, etc.) otherwise. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 81 Registered: 01-2007 |
I have been basically saying the same damn thing,,,,I still think the casinos do more harm than good. If casinos were regulated only to allow gambling and not serve alcohol or food and not allow them to have any shops either downtown could be manipulated back inot having these small important businesses back in business making it a little more lively. | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 174 Registered: 01-2006 |
ok, the casinos are a catalyst to get everything else going so we should embrace them with open arms. we will be happy they are there when Detroit becomes a lively entertainment district. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2035 Registered: 07-2004 |
Livernoisyard, I don't understand your logic. The casinos are a business here to make money. You may think that they are just sucking money out of Detroit and Michigan, but they are providing jobs and creating activity in Detroit that wouldn't exist without them. Walterwaves, who would want to go to an adult oriented entertainment business and not be able to buy a beer or eat food? Most people go to casinos to gamble, but they do take breaks and would like to partake in some other indulgence like eating and drinking. I doubt that casinos would be as popular a destination if they didn't offer something besides gambling. People aren't going to gamble then leave a casino to go eat or drink at a restaurant and then go back into the casino to gamble again. It doesn't work that way. Once they leave the casino for the night, they leave for good until the next visit. Contrary to your opinion, Walterwaves, many people, including myself, have gone to the casinos simply to eat. The buffets at MGM and MotorCity Casinos are very popular. After the meal, some people gamble while others go elsewhere. I don't agree with your assessment, Walterwaves, that the casinos should just have gambling. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 833 Registered: 11-2003 |
royce, i somewhat agree, however, we got dupped, the only one that seems like a catalyst to the area is greektown casino, the others, especially Motor City do not offer much, they seem like they are on the outskirts of downtown. can you even walk from mgm to motor city? there planning and execution has faultered, they have bamboozled the city. they should have been plotted relatively close to each other so that there could be a vibrant network and the surrounding businesses could have benefited from the walking. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 82 Registered: 01-2007 |
Hey Royce, We are all entitled to our own opinion. Maybe the casinos are a good thing, I just dont feel they are because they did put those little guys out of business who made up the character of downtown. Character is what cities need. How many gambling places does a city need anyway? Would'nt 1 be good enough and leave room for the rest of the city to grow. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1087 Registered: 01-2004 |
Also the casinos pay a lot of taxes to the city. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 83 Registered: 01-2007 |
What good are the taxes is no one lives there? What good are the taxes when they are just being pocketed any damn way? | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 242 Registered: 11-2006 |
Walterwaves, that is the dumbest response I have heard in a long time. In case u havent noticed, Detroit has a budget crisis. Without the hundreds of millions of dollars the casinos have paid in taxes, things would be way worse. By the way, there actually are people living in the city of Detroit. | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2007 |
I do not have anything against the Casinos, I think all things considered they are a plus. Cleveland does not have any Casinos and they turned their city around years ago...they used The Arts (we have), Thearte (we have) Downtown Retail business (we have)A unique destination in The Flats (we had in Rivertown)... I think it is Detroit's turn... chuckles | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2006 |
Cleveland has had a tough time keeping it that going though... Much of the stuff in the flats are gone. Overall, their downtown is in better shape, but there are still many vacant buildings. The thing I like about downtown cleveland is the DENSITY, even if they are just 5 or 6 story buildings... Grrr I hate the Detroit surface lots! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3587 Registered: 08-2004 |
OK, I want to clear up a couple of misunderstandings here.... 1) Danny, Don Barden either owns or has options on land on the WEST Riverfront between the main Post Office and the Ambassador Bridge, and NOT on the east riverfront being discussed here. The Michael Jackson/Don Barden casino/amusement park plan was for the west riverfront. 2) Tony_box_42, what are you referring to when mentioning City Airport? City Airport was originally built in the early 20th century on the UNBUILT outskirts of what whas then Detroit. No neighborhoods were ever destroyed to put up City Airport. Were you referring to Mayor Young's unrealized plan to lengthen one of the runways in the 1980's, so that larger jets could land? That plan was never realized, and no houses were destroyed. The only lingering thing about that plan was the stupid closing of 6 Mile (Mc Nichols), which still continues, and causes problems in getting across town. | ||
Missnmich Member Username: Missnmich Post Number: 557 Registered: 11-2004 |
I don't gamble. It's not a moral thing, it's a cheapness thing: I don't like to lose money. However, when I lived in Memphis, I watched Tunica, Mississippi go from what Jesse Jackson described as "Ethiopa in America" to one of the top counties in the state in per capita income (I know, the bar is low) as it became the third largest gambling destination in the country. Tunica's casinos, golf courses, and seminal shopping centers are not within walking distance either. And the Gold Strike Casino, which is the tallest building in the state, was built in a working cotton field! If they bring people to Detroit, fine. Tunica has expanded its attractions, and is trying to diversify itself. Let the casinos be a catalyst to an ever growing entertainment district in Detroit. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 249 Registered: 10-2005 |
BW3 Cleveland Christie's Cabaret Cleveland 1 review Culture Club, Club Expo, Polly Esther's Cleveland Diamond Men's Club Cleveland 1 review Flat Iron Cafe Cleveland Harbor Inn Cafe Cleveland Hoopples Riverbed Cafe Cleveland 2 reviews Howl at the Moon - DUELING PIANO BAR Cleveland Jillian's Billiard Club and Cafe Cleveland Koozma nightclub Cleveland McCarthy's Ale House Cleveland 1 review Nautica Queen Cruise Dining Ship Cleveland 1 review O'Connor's Pub in the Flats Cleveland 1 review Odeon Cleveland Pat's in the Flats Cleveland Ponte Vecchio Ristorante Italiano Cleveland 1 review Porky's Cafe in the Flats Cleveland River's Edge Cleveland Rock Bottom Restaurant & Brewery Cleveland 1 review Scene Pavillion Cleveland Shooters on the Water Cleveland 1 review The Improvisation Comedy Club Cleveland The Powerhouse Pub - All Male Revue Cleveland 4 reviews Tiffany's Cabaret Cleveland Tower City Amphitheater Cleveland Windows on the River Cleveland I am pretty sure all of these establishments are still open in the flats so I wouldn't say much of the stuff in the flats is gone. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2367 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tourists are not likely to come from any great distances to Detroit for its gambling. Hell, just about every major Indian tribe in the US seems to offer casinos nowadays. So, why would anybody plan to go to Detroit for gaming when there are plenty of casinos popping up most anywhere there were once Indians? No, gambling is bad from an economic POV in that much of the proceeds eventually leaves the region and state. That money is better spent on other things locally. | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2007 |
Livernoisyard, there are over 5 million peoples living in SouthEast lower Michigan.....fewer than 1 million in Detroit. A good High Profile Casino District, a good Rivertown offering nightlife, a good Central business district offering walkabout Retail, ample parking, plentiful dining...all of these things will make Detroit a Destination for a lot of the 5 million of SE lower MI and that will be a good thing...I can see it...I can sense it...it is coming...the Casinos are the Catalyst...it doesn't hurt to have Ford Field, Comerica park, Campus Martius, The Fox, The DIA, New Center, Rec Cen, The Grand Prix in 07 ...I think the Turnaround is starting...I think it has already begun and it will continue if we don't shoot ourselves in the foot.... chuckles | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2038 Registered: 07-2004 |
Livernoisyard, again, your I fail to understand your logic. If the casinos weren't here the City of Detroit would have an even harder time balancing its budget than it does now. Detroit is a tourist destination for the millions that live in the metro area. It's not Las Vegas so it's not going to get that tourist from Japan or Europe. However, the millions of people that come from the metro Detroit area who go to the casinos do contribute enough money to help Detroit. Period. Livernoisyard, I still don't understand why you bother to post on this forum. Ninety-nine percent of everything you post regarding Detroit is negative. Why in the hell do you bother? It's clear that you HATE Detroit. You left here because you didn't like it any more. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to leave here if they don't like it. I can accept that. However, what I can not accept is the repeated negative attitude of a former Detroiter. You left and Detroit is behind you. Let those of us who you left behind confront Detroit's problems. You no longer have to. Be glad of that and move on. We don't need you here. | ||
New2theeastside Member Username: New2theeastside Post Number: 23 Registered: 01-2007 |
Livernoisyard Tourists are not likely to come from any great distances to Detroit for its gambling. Hell, just about every major Indian tribe in the US seems to offer casinos nowadays. So, why would anybody plan to go to Detroit for gaming when there are plenty of casinos popping up most anywhere there were once Indians? That is the same thing people said about Tunica, who in the HELL would go to Tunica, Mississippi to gamble. Opps my bad, its the 3rd largest gaming region in the nation. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2369 Registered: 10-2004 |
OK. Here's a list of US casinos. Now just why would would-be casino hoppers just want to come here when they are so many better alternatives? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3588 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well based on that list, it does answer one question, why there's bus load after bus load of visitors that do day trips to the Detroit casinos EVERY DAY from Ohio and eastern Indiana. They come by the thousands!  | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3645 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rivertown Funeral Pictures from this site. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2040 Registered: 07-2004 |
Gistok, way to tell Livernoisyard. That just proves that his logic is flawed and it's time for him to keep his comments to himself. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3743 Registered: 10-2003 |
lol Spirit | ||
Tony_box_42 Member Username: Tony_box_42 Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 |
Gistok: The business on 6mi. between Connor and Van Dyke were forced out. The neighborhood east of Van Dyke from French to Conner was totally neglected by the city. I don't know if you remember the Airline that flew the larger jets out of City Airport then ceased service. I remember that neighborhood being densely populated. I think one runway was extended. I may be wrong on that. To repeat what I wrote another example of cutting off access and isolating areas.By the way as a kid our Sunday thrill was to take a ride to far away City Airport and watch the planes take off.That was a long time ago. I think I saw one of the Wright brothers. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 934 Registered: 04-2006 |
It is important to keep the casinos in perspective. Only one of the three casinos are owned by a company not based in Michigan (MGM Grand). If I am not mistaken there is a requirement for local ownership involvement so I would be surprised if all of those profits will leave the metro area. Sure it would be better if there was more local ownership. The number of those employed by casinos are expected to double once the new ones / expansions come on line. There are still requirements to employ city residents. This means more funds for the City through additional home ownership, income taxes, and gambling taxes. I am not advocating the building of an economy on the casino industry (we should have learned our lesson from the auto industry). However, the casino industry will compliment tourism and allows Detroit to be more attractive to hosting national conventions. These bring money into our economy and has spin-off benefits. I am still sore about the whole Rivertown fiasco. On the upside, with the casinos not going there, and the addition of the Riverwalk, many development possibilities are opening up. Look at the condo deals for instance. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 2382 Registered: 02-2006 |
Actually, LY is usually on the money. You guys just don't want to hear it or believe it. | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 570 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well one reason the casinos didn't locate in the rivertown district was some owners not willing to sell, and property values 3x to 10x the realistic amount as soon as the annoucement came out... Hence I agree with the slumlords need to go comments I read on another post.. This seems to occur all over the city whenever a big developer wants to buy property all the sudden owners think there property is worth WAY more than it really is.. You can call it economics, but honestly some of these owners (same as in downtown buildings) have been shitting on neighboring residents by doing jack shit to there property.. not investing anything into there properties.. Then they stop good develop because they feel they should get a reward for owning property and not doing anything.. this is how ALOT of development in downtown and in detroit has been stopped.. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 937 Registered: 04-2006 |
Digitaldom. The City did have condemnation powers and a fund from the casinos to buy the land. Should push come to shove, the casinos (through the City). Had the authority to take an owners property. This was done for Poletown, for Jefferson Assembly, and by Grainmark. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 143 Registered: 12-2006 |
The worst thing about the casinos isn't that they exist; the worst thing is the amount of time and energy the City pinned on their ridiculous hope that the casinos would create some kind of positive vibe in Detroit and lead to overall revitalization. It was and is stupid, and diverted energy that could have been more profitably applied to solving the City's real and myriad problems. I have to agree lock, stock and barrel with LivernoisYard here. Casinos suck money out of a local area and they do nothing else but that. The only exception is if you are a municipality built entirely on gambling and relying on nothing but that to support your local economy, and there are two places on Earth with that characteristic: Las Vegas and Monte Carlo. Look at Greektown pre-casino; look at Greektown post-Casino. Has MGM Grand done anything to help rebuild the area surrounding it? No, and it won't and it is a fantasy to think otherwise. Rivertown (staggering back toward the thread's original point) is another example of the ridiculous reliance on casinos to revitalize an area. You had a lot of really happening joints down there, but the City decided that was a good location for the (yet to exist) permanent casinos, so they shut down everything. Now it's just Yet Another Mostly Abandoned Part of Detroit, as if we needed another one of those. The development of the casinos was a ridiculous waste of time and effort. What district has been revitalized by this effort? How have the people of Detroit benefited? Not the City; the City takes the tax money gladly and squanders it. How have the people benefited? You could have produced more low-paying jobs by convincing Wal Mart to open two or three stores. The City of Detroit is unfortunately married to the preposterous notion that one or two big projects downtown will somehow "save" it. This has been a catastrophic diversion for decades. What killed Detroit to the extent it has been killed is the decision of hundreds of thousands of residents and tens of thousands of small businesses that they would be better off trying their luck somewhere else; and to this day the City does nothing to try to retain the ones it has left or to attract those it lost. If Detroit was a reasonable place to own a home, or to operate a donut shop or auto-body repair shop or clothing store, it might yet come back. But it isn't and doesn't try to be, because it sees stars in its eyes over such ridiculous notions as casinos. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2042 Registered: 07-2004 |
Professorscott, I have to disagree with your assessment of the casinos like I disagree with what Livernoisyard is saying about casinos. You ask, "What has the casinos done for the City of Detroit?" Well, they provide taxes to the city government which you admit that they do. Now, what the city government does with the money is no fault of the casinos, so you can't blame the casinos Also, the casinos have provided thousands of jobs, many to Detroit residents. If the casinos were not here, the people working for them now may not have jobs. Yes, the jobs are low-paying but so are the jobs at Wal-Mart. To say that these workers could work for Wal-Mart instead of the casinos is wishful thinking, given the fact that Wal-mart has not made a decision to build in Detroit. The casinos, on the other hand, are at least providing employment that Wal-Mart isn't. Even if the casinos were not here in Detroit, there would still be no guarantee that Wal-mart would replace them and employ city residents. Now, regarding the argument that the casinos don't do any thing for the surrounding areas that they are in, I just want to ask you, "What are they supposed to do beyond offering people in the neighborhood jobs?" Isn't the main reason for having a business in a city is for that business to provide jobs for as many city residents as it can? These businesses aren't responsible for picking up neighborhood garbage, fixing street lights, or repairing roads. Those activities are the responsibility of the city government. Period. Casinos are not a panacea. The problem that I have with your argument, Professorscott, is that you fault the city for wasting money in getting these casinos and you fault the casinos for not doing any thing to revitalize the areas around them. Again, the casinos provide jobs. They bring in people from all over the region to spend money. This all would not have happened if the city didn't get the ball moving. And most times, Professorscott, it takes spending some money to make more money. It's called investing, and Detroit's investment in casinos is paying off whether you believe it or not, Professorscott. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2378 Registered: 10-2004 |
Getting Started with Basic Gambling Facts Real costs for everyone Gambling costs more than raising taxes, even for those who NEVER gamble! Each compulsive gambler costs the economy between $14,006 and $22,077 per year. If 2% become addicted, thats $280 to $440 per year paid by every other citizen! Trading jobs kills development Most casinos attract 80% or more of their market from a 35-50 mile radius. Casinos absorb existing entertainment, restaurant and hotel business, and deplete dollars available to other retail businesses. That destroys other jobs in the trade area and eliminates their sales, employment and property tax contributions. Illegal gambling remains Legalizing gambling does not reduce illegal gambling. Legalized gambling may even increase illegal gambling because untaxed illegal operators may offer better odds, bigger payoffs and loans that legal operations cannot. Patrons in gambling states feel gambling is generally legal and they are less averse to gambling in unlicensed establishments. Law enforcement in gambling states see illegal gambling as a state revenue issue rather than a criminal activity, and may be less motivated to investigate. Gambling brings addiction When gambling appears in a community, it brings a wave of addiction. In a mature gambling market, compulsive gambling typically seizes the lives of 1.5% to 2.5% of the adult population. That amounts to three to five times the number of people suffering from cancer. Gambling is an addictive behavior, make no mistake about it . . . Gambling has all the properties of a psychoactive substance, and again, the reason is that it changes the neurochemistry of the brain. The American Psychiatric Association says between 1% and 3% of the U.S. population is addicted to gambling, depending on location and demographics. Youth have even higher addiction rates, between 4 an 8%. Proximity and poverty matter Addiction rates double within 50 miles of a casino. Probable pathological gambling in Nevada in 2000 measured 3.5%. Other states ranged from 2.1% in North Dakota in 2000 to 4.9% in Mississippi in 1996. A casino within 10 miles of a home yields a 90% increased risk of its occupants becoming pathological or problem gamblers. Neighborhood disadvantage increases that risk another 69%. Slots and other gambling machines push susceptible players to the pathological level in an average of 1.08 years, vs. 3.58 years with more conventional forms of table and racetrack gambling. Gambling doubles bankruptcy. It takes three to five years for gamblers in a newly opened market to exhaust their resources. When addiction ripens in the market, so do the social costs. The most recent study of all the casino counties in the nation confirmed personal bankruptcy rates are 100% higher in counties with casinos than in counties without casinos. Gambling increases crime Desperate to chase and recover gambling losses, pathological gamblers often turn to crime. Fraud and embezzlement become common among formerly hard-working and highly trusted people. Violent crimes also increase. Three years after the introduction of casinos in Atlantic City, there was a tripling of total crimes. Per capita crime there jumped from 50th in the nation to first. Comparing crime rates for murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary and motor vehicle theft reveals Nevada is the most dangerous place to live in the United States. Expect suicides. A study of addicted gamblers revealed, Between 20% and 30% of the respondents made actual suicide attempts. No other addictive population has had as high a prevalence for attempts. Nevada has been the highest in the nation for suicides for 10 of the last 12 years. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on February 05, 2007) | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2044 Registered: 07-2004 |
Then, Livernoisyard, according to your facts, no place that has gambling is a good place. As a result, your statement about people having better alternatives to gambling than gambling in Detroit is a "ridiculous" statement, since all places that have gambling are bad. Go away, Livernoisyard, your negative comments are not needed on this forum. | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2007 |
ProfessorScott lives in an Idealistic world and dissects events after they are reality. The Casinos although not the best or socially advantageous or culturally beneficial have nonetheless provided a focal point for a rebirth of Detroit in the eyes of many Detroiter's, Detroit's planners and managers and millions of visitors from the suburbs...all positives, all leading to and forcing Detroit planners to accommodate these changes. This is good...yes, no...? Detroit hosted the SuperBowl last year...Fluke...? No...positive planning and a positive experience for millions of visitors and TV watchers. We have the F1 World level Grand Prix returning...Fluke...? No...positive planning and looking forward by someone...eh. The DIA, The DSO, The Fox, and on and on what about those ProfessorScott...? How about the Detroit Tigers, The Detroit Red Wings... The world is not perfect...Detroit is not a perfect place...but we have 2 or 3 million people in close proximity (SELM)thinking positively again and willing to come to Detroit for special events, etc..... ProfessorScott, Livernoisyard, I appreciate and respect your thought and opinion but you are wrong and Detroit will move ahead regardless of what you think.... bottom line.... Detroit City has many, many, many positives going for it and the Casinos have provided the catalyst for their discovery and re-discovery. chuckles | ||
Buzzman0077 Member Username: Buzzman0077 Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2006 |
I think we fail to remember that Detroit had close proximity gambling before the addition of our own casino's. We had many of the negative impacts of gambling due to Casino Windsor. By creating our own casino's it a least allowed some of that lost money to flow back into city coffers. | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 27 Registered: 02-2007 |
This is lifted from an article in the Economist dated Feb 1, 2007 chuckles Three casinos have also been built in the city, and attract enough visitors to boost Detroit's annual tax revenues by more than $100m. We have become very dependent on them very quickly, says Kurt Metzger, a local research director for the United Way, a charity. Much hangs on a 5 ½-mile (9km) length of riverfront that is being overhauled by a huge public-private venture. It will include a state park and lots of space to walk, cycle and play. Developers plan to add places in between to live and work. In the middle of this stretch stands the Renaissance Centre, a giant tower of office, hotel and retail space that was revived after GM, one of the three big carmakers, decided in 1996 to buy it and install its corporate headquarters there. Although the riverside will remain a far cry from Chicago's lakefrontwhere one can look out on clear blue water rather than Windsor, Canadalocals hope that the project will induce more high-income workers to live downtown instead of in the suburbs. | ||
Goose Member Username: Goose Post Number: 30 Registered: 02-2005 |
why do people consistantly and perpetually argue about the evils of gambling and the casino industry is beyone me, the casinos are here, no matter how you feel about them they are not going away, now back to the original topic.... i remember watching the first redwings stanley cup victory in the parking lot of BC's, then we ran up and down the streets of Detroit celebrating, I think we walked from BC's to CoboJoes that night..., i would love to take a look at what the interior of BC's looks like today...... i also remember drinking at the Soup Kitchen when I was not of age, and the Woodbridge was a huge hangout when I was home from college for all the suburban youths... ah good times..... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3592 Registered: 08-2004 |
I think that both LY and Professorscott are forgetting about 1 very important thing in the logic of their anti-casino statements... CASINO WINDSOR!!!!! Perhaps you guys don't remember that loud sucking sound that was happening before the Detroit casinos.... the million dollars a day going over to Windsor from SE Michigan. You can talk all the talk you want about Detroit's missed development opportunities or the ills caused by gambling... it doesn't mean squat as long as Casino Windsor was a 1 mile drive across the border. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 38 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: I never know quite what to make of the use of Cleveland as an example of a comeback city. I used to visit frequently years ago when the flats were the new thing. Great times. But here are the facts regarding Cleveland, which sound awfully familiar: Population by decade: 1950--914,808(7th nationally), 1960--876,050(8th), 1970--750,903(10th), 1980--573,822(18th), 1990--505,616(23rd), 2000--478,403(33rd), 2005est.--452,208(39th). In 2004 and 2006 Cleveland was named the poorest big city in the country. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/60 80044/ http://www.cleveland.com/pover ty/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base /news/115692731199050.xml&coll =2 I'd like to see our city rebound, but let's aim a little higher than Cleveland. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3593 Registered: 08-2004 |
... and another thing... yes Mayor Archer F'd up the riverfront... but he had plenty of help from greedy riverfront landowners. Funny thing, you never hear people complain about how greedy landowners were responsible for the mess on the east riverfront? And perhaps someone can regale us with stories of how wonderful downtown was before the casinos. Seems to me that development downtown has really taken off since their arrival, and not before. Perhaps some of us need reminding that Peter Karmanos said publicly that the casinos were one of the reasons he chose downtown for his hew Compuware HQ, instead of Oakland County. I guess what I'm saying is before Detroit Casinos came about, we had all the problems (Casino Windsor) without any of the benefits. Now at least we have both. (Message edited by Gistok on February 05, 2007) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 939 Registered: 04-2006 |
Gistock, Greedy landowners are a given whenever there is a govt project! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3598 Registered: 08-2004 |
They sure do seem to come out of the woodwork, don't they? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 437 Registered: 01-2005 |
Gistok: Just what is a "greedy landowner?" I've tried to buy real estate several times and have been unable to do so because the owner would not accept the top price I offered. I never once considered such an owner "greedy." A real estate deal takes a willing seller and a willing buyer. Lots of times that just doesn't happen. What do you call an owner who doesn't want to sell at any price? Not "greedy" I hope. Lots of people would. Maybe Detroitplanner does. An owner sets his own value on his real estate. You and I may think, based on many indices of real estate value, that he's nuts. That's the beauty of real estate ownership in this country. We as owners have the right to do that. (Of course the rights of such owners has been abused frequently by municipalities who scorned such rights by abusing the power of imminent domain, a practice which in MI has recently been constitutionally prohibited.) The City has been one of the worst abusers of imminent domain, much to the detriment of we taxpayers. Historically, Detroit failed to make legitimate offers to owners; Detroit in imminent domain matters has never had even a modicum of common sense or practical knowledge regarding real estate values. And neither do folks who claim landowners are greedy just because their view of the value of their real estate differs from the guy who's trying to buy it. There's no such thing as a "greedy" landowner. Unrealistic, maybe, but not greedy. | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 571 Registered: 08-2004 |
yes sir they do... | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 944 Registered: 04-2006 |
3rdworld wrote: "What do you call an owner who doesn't want to sell at any price? Not "greedy" I hope. Lots of people would. Maybe Detroitplanner does." Huh? I'm against government takings for the benefit of a private development. Where did I ever make you assume otherwise? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 153 Registered: 12-2006 |
I'm amazed by all the people who think Casinos bring benefits. Almost any other kind of development imaginable would bring better benefits at lest cost to society. Livernoisyard presents facts, straight out undeniable facts, and is vilified. Astonishing. Casino Windsor was not having any measurable effect on Detroit. Detroit was losing population and retail and manufacturing before CW opened, and after at about the same rate. Sure, the City of Windsor was sucking in the vice-tax revenue before Detroit was. You want that money? Legalize crack. My frustration, and it is magnified by what some of you are saying here, is that Detroit has real problems, which can't be solved by the legalized robbing of lower-middle-class people who are bad at math. The extended effort to legalize casino gambling in Detroit came with a huge opportunity cost. The most thriving big cities in America don't have, and don't need, casinos. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2047 Registered: 07-2004 |
Professorscott, to say that casinos bring nothing positive to the table is inaccurate. They are businesses that hire people and pay taxes. Now, I can agree with you that they aren't the best kind of business to have because they give gamblers the false hope that they are going to win it big when in most cases gamblers lose more than what they win. However, what I think the majority of people in favor of casinos is trying to say is that casinos are better than nothing. I think everyone here who is in favor of the casinos being in Detroit would gladly exchange every low-paying casino job for a high-paying manufacturing or high-tech job. The dilemma is, "What do you do if the manufacturing and high-tech jobs aren't around?" Professorscott, your logic can also apply to the consumption of alcohol or the eating of fast foods. It's not the best thing that someone can do regarding their health, but in moderation it's not going to kill you. So keep that in mind when you think about the negatives involving casinos and gambling. You finished your last post by saying that most thriving big cities in America don't have and don't need casinos. Well, these cities usually have something going for them that Detroit doesn't or will never have. Detroit is not the financial capital of the U.S. like N.Y.C. Detroit is not a winter vacation destination like Miami. Detroit is not the movie capital like Hollywood. Detroit is not the political capital like DC. Detroit is not the capital of the midwest like Chicago. Yet all of these cities don't have what Detroit has. Detroit is the auto capital of the U.S., and yet the jobs that made it such are disappearing. So tell me, Professorscott, what is Detroit supposed to do for jobs? Exactly, diversify. Maybe diversifying with casinos is not your cup of tea, but it's better than nothing. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2006 |
"Although the riverside will remain a far cry from Chicago's lakefrontwhere one can look out on clear blue water rather than Windsor, Canadalocals hope that the project will induce more high-income workers to live downtown instead of in the suburbs." I've felt cities benefit when they get the what some in demography called DINC, double income no children or the young single professionals. These are folks who pay much taxes, don't require a lot of services (such as schools), and they also tend to be 'can do' folks. They tend to push and shove and pull to get things done. During the late 60/70s Detroit got a lot of public assistance residents moving into Michigan as Michigan's benefits were better then other states. (I assume this is true of many Northern cities and states like MA, N.Y., etc.) While the benefits were Federal/state dollars, having families Detroit did pick up the expense for schools. Now schools can get smaller, not larger, and as teachers retire less will be needed to replace them. | ||
Ddaydave Member Username: Ddaydave Post Number: 441 Registered: 04-2005 |
Great pics Lowell I used to most frequent of the bars in rivertown my favorites being Franklin street brewery the sardine club and one a few street over that used to be a blind pig I cant remember the name here is another link on that http://www.detroitfunk.com/200 5/11/rip_rivertown.html | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2007 |
I guess this has kind of turned into a casinos thread. Casinos sell a product just like every other business. What product? They sell hope or dreams. What difference does it make if someone throws away there money on craps or crap. Most of the products we buy in society we don't need anyway. There are thousands of companies that sell false hopes. Most the Automobiles of today are a waste of money. $30,000+ for a machine that gets us from one place to another. People will sign a credit agreement that they will pay $600 a month for six years. Why? because they want the same thing the casino is offering, a good feeling. Is this not a GAMBLE? Throwing your money away, if you will. Try to sell that same car a week later for the same price. Good Luck, you probably just LOST 20% | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 438 Registered: 01-2005 |
Detroitplanner: Answer to your question -- your 2/5, 3:03 PM post. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1497 Registered: 12-2005 |
Casinos are a zero-sum game. Instead of processing raw materials into more valuable products, they only concentrate wealth into the casino's pockets. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. That's not necessarily bad but it certainly is no good, in the net value sense. Historically, the American public's attitude toward gambling has vacillated between pro and con. It seems Detroit's casinos will be around until the next con cycle, so I don't see much point in opposing them now. What's more important to understand is that even the most successful casino will add less overall net value than even a struggling, barely-surviving but value-adding business. I say leave the casinos be for now but don't expect that to be enough. Without more value-adding business no headway can be made. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2007 |
Casinos are not any different then other entertainment venues such as bars, theatre and sports teams. All of the millions of dollars we spend at these businesses we do not receive "a product". These businesses concentrate wealth to the owners just as casinos. If you are against casinos then you are also against these businesses. A company that uses raw materials that produces a product that is viewed as necessary is valuable to an economy, but entertainment facilities are historically just as necessary. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2006 |
instead of discussed what was NOT built here (casinos), why not discuss what WILL be built here. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 430 Registered: 12-2006 |
Anyone know when work on the Globe Trading Co. building starts? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2415 Registered: 10-2004 |
Some squatter was electrocuted there when his battery cables didn't work on the power lines as he planned. I heard that that area is crawling with squatters in warmer weather. Anybody know? | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2049 Registered: 07-2004 |
Livernoisyard, I see that you are trolling again. You don't live here so how in the hell would you know about squatters here. BTW, the area is not crawling with squatters, unlike this thread that's crawling with useless trolls. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 431 Registered: 12-2006 |
Royce, calm down. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1358 Registered: 11-2003 |
If it's not squatters, then who else is shitting on the sidewalks over there? (unintended humor completely unintended) | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 2406 Registered: 02-2006 |
Susanarosa is on a roll today! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3602 Registered: 08-2004 |
3rdworldcity... "greedy" weren't my words, although I gave that post an Amen! I bet a lot of landowners were PO'ed at Mayor Archer when he flipflopped on the riverfront casino site. In hindsight I bet they wished they weren't being so "unrealistic"! | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2050 Registered: 07-2004 |
Scs100, don't pick a f***ing fight with me. The person you should be saying something to is Livernoisyard. At every opportunity he tries to bad mouth Detroit. I'm tired of the SOB. Read his posts, Scs100, and you'll see how negative and insulting he is. The fact is he doesn't live here anymore. He lives in Wisconsin. Yet he feels compelled to spew out bad stuff about Detroit ad nauseum. If he left here because he didn't like it here, then that's fine. He shouldn't keep bothering us with his negative views; and that's what they are 99% of the time. Scs100, you have not been on this forum long enough to know me or any one else on this forum to tell them what they should do. You don't know the history and therefore you don't know the context of my displeasure with Livernoisyard. However, stick around long enough and it will become apparent. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2006 |
Too bad. Another section of the city with character laid to waste. Rivertown would be the ideal location for a red light district. Seriously. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 803 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: quote: I don't know where this mis-information is coming from, because these assertions are simply not true. The three Detroit casinos currently employ about 8000 people, and this number will rise to over 10,000 when the permanent facilities are completed. This is hardly a "small number", and vastly larger than the amount of employees at two or three Wal Marts. The accusations that these casino jobs are "low-paying" is completely untrue. The vast majority of Detroit casino jobs are full time positions with very good benefit packages. There are very few casino jobs that pay less than 10-12 dollars per hour, and the majority of casino jobs pay between 13-25 dollars per hour, plus benefits. This is a far cry from the 7-10 dollars per hour, without benefits, that most service sector jobs (like Wal Mart) pay. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 281 Registered: 11-2005 |
Tourists are not likely to come from any great distances to Detroit for its gambling. Hell, just about every major Indian tribe in the US seems to offer casinos nowadays. So, why would anybody plan to go to Detroit for gaming when there are plenty of casinos popping up most anywhere there were once Indians? Ohio doesn't have any. Not a one. Even on Indian reservations. That's why you see so many Ohio plates around downtown. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2083 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thanks, Rhymes, for also explaining to Livernoisyard the inaccuracy in his statement. He's always trying to bad mouth Detroit. He needs to ask the thousands of Ohioans who have come to Detroit to gamble, how was their experience? I'm sure he would be surprised at their answers. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2098 Registered: 07-2004 |
I see that like Lmichigan, Livernoisyard doesn't want to respond to his unsubstantiated claims. Where are you L(either one)? | ||
Eric_w Member Username: Eric_w Post Number: 37 Registered: 02-2007 |
"The City of Detroit is unfortunately married to the preposterous notion that one or two big projects downtown will somehow "save" it. This has been a catastrophic diversion for decades. What killed Detroit to the extent it has been killed is the decision of hundreds of thousands of residents and tens of thousands of small businesses that they would be better off trying their luck somewhere else; and to this day the City does nothing to try to retain the ones it has left or to attract those it lost. If Detroit was a reasonable place to own a home, or to operate a donut shop or auto-body repair shop or clothing store, it might yet come back. But it isn't and doesn't try to be, because it sees stars in its eyes over such ridiculous notions as casinos. " PRETTY MUCH SEZ IT ALL Professorscott- Yes plenty of folks do come from Ohio too-I see tour buses a lot on I-75. But many ride to the casino gamble, then leave. I doubt many make a vacation of it and few eat or spend money except inside the casino. The sad ruination of Rivertown was totally unnecessary | ||
Crash_nyc Member Username: Crash_nyc Post Number: 776 Registered: 08-2004 |
Eric_w said: What killed Detroit to the extent it has been killed is the decision of hundreds of thousands of residents and tens of thousands of small businesses that they would be better off trying their luck somewhere else; and to this day the City does nothing to try to retain the ones it has left or to attract those it lost. I completely agree. I worked for a Rivertown valet parking company from 1988 to 1995, and these are among the places I worked, that used to be packed wall-to-wall every single weekend during those years: The Rhinoceros Club BC's Woodbridge Tavern Dunleavyz Andrew's On-The-Corner Warehouse Club 1940 Chop House Not to mention Rivertown Saloon, Soup Kitchen, River Rock, Sardine Club, and the list goes on... Atlantic City was a shithole with little-to-nothing going for it prior to casinos, so they gained much more than they lost. Rivertown was a vibrant, exciting place to be in its heyday, and it was all flushed down the toilet because of casinos. Hundreds of employees and business owners took a shitbath over the decisions made to pave the way for casinos, while just a select few casino operators made out. The systematic destruction of Rivertown will go down in history as one of Detroit's greatest failures, and a source of shame for decades. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 22 Registered: 03-2007 |
O lets move on. there are several of those bars, clubs restaurants still standing in the area, some were torn down. But now theres tons of open land for huge housing developments that otherwise wouldnt be comming.the bars that are still standing will see new life, and now theres room for sparkling new ones. | ||
Enduro Member Username: Enduro Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2006 |
I didn't realize there was that many bars and clubs closed to make way for the casinos. Crying shame. I played at the Sardine Bar a couple times, first in Detroit gig I believe. Very cool place, loved the gas lights and diamond plate everywhere. I think most of the other clubs had already gone (I remember seeing the Spot abandoned). How long did it take for all the clubs to close and was there every any effort to bring them back when they realized the casinos weren't interested in making good on their promises? Let the good times roll... I like the idea of red light district, let's legalize a relatively harmless crime. The soup kitchen building does look a little like an old timey brothel/salloon anyways. After all Windsor has prostitution now and we seem to like to keep up with the Jones. I live a few blocks from all the sin going on in the casino and I sleep just fine at night. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 23 Registered: 03-2007 |
the new residential in-fills taking up riverfront property will surely make up 4 a few lost bars,most of the closed ones still exist, drive down franklin ,woodbridge.when residents an drinking holes live side by side,everyones a winner.. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 93 Registered: 05-2006 |
I know this thread has been around for a while, but I went through the pictures again and it still gives me chills. I was a DJ at the Tangerine Room/River Place in the late 80's. That was a very hot spot back in the day. To see it in its last incarnation ("The Spot") and in shambles just kills me. The Warehouse, Club Taboo, FBC, Atwater, the Rhino, ALL had their time. Those were the days. Anyone take pictures of the area lately or does it still look the same? Save me a tumbleweed. |
