Discuss Detroit » Active Archive » Why Charter Schools? Their scores are worse than DPS « Previous Next »
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Jhartmich
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is the mayor promoting charter schools who appear to do worse on MEAP scores than DPS? Here is a list provided by the Detroit News. Charter schools don't seem to be the saving grace everyone thinks they'll be.

http://forums.detnews.com/char terschools2003/index.cfm
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Dougw
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why Charter Schools? Because they provide a form of competition and an incentive for public schools to perform better. Performance in this case may mean student performance, or keeping costs reasonably under control.

I agree that charter schools are not a panacea, and at a certain point, there's probably not any benefit in increasing the proportion of charter schools. If I had kids, I'd probably lean toward public schools rather than charter schools, but it's good to have the option.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

is there anything to back this claim up? there's no information comparing the MEAP rates of charter schools v. DPS at that link, and the link to the "report" is broken...

also, the wording of that little paragraph is fishy...

"Private companies that run most of Michigan's charter schools DON'T ALWAYS deliver on their promise of a better education for students."

yeah, so? if they deliver on their promises 99 times out of 100, that's pretty good, yes?

this sounds to me like someone's bullshit political agenda, i.e., the "Let's keep schools open that we can't afford and don't even have the students to fill" crowd

(Message edited by thejesus on May 14, 2007)
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Bob
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The point that is missed by opening charters is that they are just a different school. They do not fix what is wrong with urban schools, they are just different. Their MEAP scores are listed on the MDE website along with any other public school. Some do better than DPS, some worse. All Charters are bound by No Child Left Behind, but the difference if that if they fail, their charter is revoked and then they are closed. There a good ones and there are bad ones, just like public schools. Parents need to do their homework and figure out which is which. In many charter schools, there tends to be high staff turnover (but not all). In many cases teachers are not compensated very well, leading them to bail for another position at the first chance. One thing that is different vs public is that the private company hired by the university holding the charter can make a profit of the per pupil money coming from the state. This usually comes from low teacher pay and benefits, and not the best facilities. But then again, they have to compete, so some companies do invest in their schools to make people want to come there. In some cases charters have been very successful (like New Orleans) in allowing a school to be created and adapted to its population and area, but in a lot of cases, they are not any better than public school, but those will eventually get shut down for not making AYP.
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Dougw
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points, Bob. Yes, they don't necessarily fix what is wrong with urban schools, but there is some value in the (relatively few) successful ones providing a model for how things can work.
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Bob
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The partnership with business is what is really exciting about Kilpatrick's proposal. Teaching students in a school supported by people who know the skills that they will need in the field can only help the children and maybe do something in the long run to help our unemployment rate.

(Message edited by bob on May 14, 2007)
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Professorscott
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is also some value in parents having a choice. If you could only buy (say) blue jeans from one store, and you absolutely had to go to that store to get blue jeans and everybody knew it, what incentive would that store have to provide good service, or keep prices reasonable, or anything else?

There are probably good and bad charter schools just like there are good and bad of everything else, but the fact of people having a choice, I think, makes a big difference.
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Rb336
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The whole problem with the schools-of-choice program is that many sub-par performing schools get left with students who aren't accepted at other schools, with students with virtually no parental involvement, etc.

There is one nearly-universal thing in successful vs. non-successful schools -- parental involvement in education is higher in successful ones
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Professorscott
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen that RB. It is the parents' responsibility to get the child educated; the public school or any other school is just a means to that end.

The problem of uninterested parents seems intractable to me.
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Mrjoshua
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anything is better than continuing to believe the current system of ridiculously generous pensions and medical benefits is sustainable, which it is not. If there is one thing that will awaken the DPS system, it is competition from a non-unionized and innovative alternative to a bloated, ineffective and overpriced bureaucracy that is intent on preserving its entitlement status quo while those it is supposed to be serving, the kids, remain an afterthought.

Bring on the charters!
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Bob
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Calling the charters innovative is giving them too much credit, they are just different. DPS is a monster that is bloated by too many layers of adminstration wasting lots of money. But a large majority of problems with urban schools is the lack of parents involvement in the education. No charter school is going to fix that. Yes, charters are able to cut costs be paying underpaying their teachers and giving them lesser benefits than public schools, but then they have high staff turnover in most cases due to this, and that does not help students either. Status quo in Detroit for education is not working, but charters are not going to fix the problem, parents who are involved in making sure their child gets a good education is. That means reading to them at home. The major plus with a charter is that is easy to pull the charter and shut it down if it is not working. But in a public school, the kids have to have somewhere to go. The teacher pension thing is going to be fixed by the powers that be, mark my words, it will be part of the compromise to fix the budget, why do you think they are not releasing anything in the press until its done.
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Detroitteacher
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The sad part of this is that DPS turned down 200 million dollars (I think that is the amount) from a private donor because they refused to open charters.

Also sad is the fact that the residents of the city voted down a proposal that would allow Kwame to run the public schools. He is circumventing thier votes by planning on opening charters.

As a teacher, I am for whatever works FOR THE KIDS. My son went to a charter school and did well there. Public school just wasn't for him. If DPS cared about really educating kids, they would have a variety of schools (not just the elite, admission test only schools) to offer parents a choice.

I don't see how the charters Kwame is proposing will fix anything other than take kids out of DPS until after count day so that DPS loses money but still educates the kids that weren't there for the fund count. I see it every year and I doubt it will change. After count day we get loads of kids transferring back in from charters (because they've been kicked out because of behavior, attendance, etc). Charters don't have to keep everyone and can be selective. Public schools accept ALL kids and have to keep them unless they've killed someone on campus (yes, I've seen them take back weapon carriers, drug carriers and violent assault cases).

(Message edited by detroitteacher on May 14, 2007)
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Rjlj
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because the City of Detroit has come to the realization that they can't run a school system.
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Jhartmich
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just curious when I asked this question.

My friend taught at University Prep Academy and hated it. He said that the pay is horrible, the benefits are horrible, and they have a high turnover rate. He stated that most the teachers are under 30 and have applications at public schools. As soon as they get an offer for a public school job, they leave. (He did, he now teaches in Walled Lake.)

I'm just wondering how you can have long term stability when everyone takes a charter school job as a last resort.

Maybe Kwame has other plans to make them more stable. I hope it works out for the kids. They need the best education they can get.
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Jenniferl
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a few things I'd like to add...

On the pro-charter side, the parents seem to feel that they are treated better here than at public schools. At least, this is what I've heard over and over again. At public schools, the parents were ignored or their concerns weren't taken seriously. But at the charters, the staff was more helpful and willing to work with the parents.

However, one big problem I see with the charter schools is that they've put many of Detroit's private schools out of business. Many former Catholic schools are now charter schools. Other private schools, such as the Herlong Cathedral School, have simply vanished. Thus, the charters have succeeded in providing poorer families with more school choice, but I don't see too many middle class parents choosing either the charters or the DPS. These folks are going to keep moving out to the 'burbs.
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Pffft
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The assumption that competition is inherently good when it comes to education, and that you can compare education to a commodity like blue jeans, intrigues me.

How is it that in the '30s through '50s, when the Detroit Public Schools were world class, there was mostly just competition from parochial schools? You could argue that today there is more competition, and yet the schools are struggling.

The problem is money, let's face it. The erosion of the tax base decimated the DPS. Now charter schools siphon off even more money and speed up the process.
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Professorscott
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pffft,

Interesting handle! Point number one: there were bucketloads of Catholic schools in the era to which you refer, and they were very inexpensive, so Catholic parents - a formidable number in Detroit - had a real choice during that era. Nowadays there are fewer Catholic schools and they are much more expensive; I would say few Detroit parents can be reasonably said to have that choice.

The problem is not money. That's a problem, not the problem. The eroding tax base is not just a cause but also an effect; the poor quality of the schools is one of the things that caused people to abandon Detroit in vast numbers over the past few decades.

When my wife and I first married we lived in Detroit, but we had agreed from the start that we would have to live outside the City once our children were of school age. And we like the City! But DPS doesn't feel it has to make any effort to compete with suburban schools, or Catholic schools, or charter schools or anyone; it is a bureaucracy beholden only unto itself and thinks it has a God-given right to exist.

The bureaucrats who have driven DPS from "world-class", as you say and as it was, into hell, think they have some divine right to their phony-baloney jobs. They care about children as much as you care about a penny falling out of your pocket.

How much of the DPS dollar ever finds its way into a classroom? I've seen some of their administrative buildings and I've also seen some of the schools, and I wonder.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 1:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The school system didn't get to the point that it's at magically and overnight. A first wave of citizens took their children out of the system (for whatever reasons), and the hole was never plugged. It was only after that first wave that the subsequent waves bought into the hysteria. The sky doesn't fall until you tell it to.

That said, the handling of the administration in recent years has been deplorable, and there is no excusing that.
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Eric_w
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"How is it that in the '30s through '50s, when the Detroit Public Schools were world class, there was mostly just competition from parochial schools? You could argue that today there is more competition, and yet the schools are struggling. "
Then the schools were attended my mostly white kids from the so called traditional family structure. In school teachers had control of the classroom and had the authority to paddle kids to keep them in line. When I attended elementary school in the 60's the teachers were respected & even feared a bit. Now I'd wager it's the teachers that fear the kids.
Charter schools aren't the total answer but like someone clinging to life raft in the ocean parents are willing to try anything to give their child a any choice than Detroit's messed up system.
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Lmr
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 9:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a sample of what made the DPS world class in the 30's through the 50's.

My mother graduated from Cass Tech in 1938. She took home economics. In the 11th grade, their sewing class project was that they could either make a lined coat or lined suit -or- take a coat or suit that was already made, take it apart, and resize it for someone else. This was during the depression and a lot of students couldn't afford the fabric for something new. My mother took a men's overcoat from a neighbor, took it apart, and remade it smaller for the neighbor's 12-14 year old son. That was 11th grade. Mom said that at times they would have fabric furnished by the school and the teacher would remind them to cut things from the fabric so that they would use the least fabric so "that they wouldn't waste the government's money". Later on mom worked doing alterations at Kline's for years.

My uncle who graduated from Western in 1934 took a lot of business/accounting classes in high school. Their mother worked as a bookkeeper for a laundry at the time and she used to bring the laundry office's books home at times to drill my uncle at working on real books so that he would pass his classes. He became a CPA later on.

I have several of their school books from the 1930's. The content looks very challenging. My other uncle who graduated from Southwestern in 1936 took German there and that German book not only covers the language but German history and mythology.

My mother's family lived Southwest near Woodmere Cemetery. Interestingly enough she said that while Cass Tech was considered to be a difficult school to get through, the school that most people in the area considered the toughest to get through was Holy Redeemer.
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Lmr
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I meant to add on another comment to my last post, based on Eric_w's post.

In the 1930's there was already a fair number of black students in the DPS. My mother knew several in her class at Cass Tech. The black students then also came from mostly traditional family structures, it was not just white students.
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Track75
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The problem is money, let's face it. The erosion of the tax base decimated the DPS. Now charter schools siphon off even more money and speed up the process.

That excuse doesn't fly any more. I've heard it for decades and while it may have been true at one time, it isn't the case any more.

Increasing DPS's funding won't solve most of their most serious problems, like ineffective management, apathetic parents and unprepared students.

According to schoolmatters.com, Detroit received $10,700 per student in '04. If you look at the top ten districts (ranked by reading scores) in Oakland County, only three received more money than Detroit.

Bloomfield Hills $14,100
Birmingham $13,100
Farmington $11,700

The other seven also have excellent scores but received less money per student than DPS, in some cases much less.

Troy $10,200
Walled Lake $9,500
West Bloomfield $9,400
Novi $9,300
Rochester $8,600
Lake Orion $8,200
Clarkston $8,000
South Lyon $7,200

How can money be the main factor in DPS's poor performance when DPS gets 10%, 20%, 30% or more money than other more successful districts?

I have young children in one of these other districts. There's a ton of parental involvement. All the parents come to parent-teacher meetings. Based on the class phone directory and from personal experience, all the kids in my children's classes live in two-parent homes. Many have stay-at-home moms or dads with time to get involved. We all place a huge importance on education. My wife and I see the teachers on a weekly basis.

A school system with little parental involvement won't solve that problem with more money. How DPS, home to thousands of single and uninvolved parents will get around that problem is a mystery to me. Letting the more motivated parents find a school they like for their kids is probably a good thing.
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Jt1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track that is true but how much comes into play in the 10.6 for building maintenance, pension obligations, etc.

I am not defending DPS because they obviously do not manage their money well but there are a lot of costs that older districts incur. It is akin to the Big 3s legacy costs to the foreign competition in my opinion. Certainly a lot of room for improvement but not all things are equal when looking at the per student funding.
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Track75
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The $10,600 is operating expenses. Capital projects (new schools and such) are separate.

Maintenance is certainly going to be higher for DPS, and that's included in the $10,600. A quick comparison though shows a difference of only $300 between DPS and my district (with my district getting much less than $300 less than DPS per pupil overall).

I don't know how pension costs are accounted for, if it's part of the district figures or what.

Here's DPS's page if you're curious:

http://www.schoolmatters.com/a pp/data/q/stid=23/llid=116/stl lid=207/locid=981907/catid=821 /secid=3183/compid=771/site=pe s

(Message edited by track75 on May 15, 2007)
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Jt1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info.
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Track75
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're welcome.
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Romanized
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why? Perception. The folks flocking out of here because they are fed up with DPS may just give a charter the time of day. If they do, the charter is worth the time and effort. Its really just slick marketing. And you can't do much worse than DPS.
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Track75
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As an aside, there are some schools within DPS with very motivated students and involved parents. If you have the knowledge and initiative to pursue that avenue you can get your children set up in the relatively few excellent DPS schools. They will then be surrounded by the children of like-minded parents and will receive an excellent education.

Since these schools are limited in number and size and some require entrance testing, most DPS students don't attend these schools. They often get stuck with a sub-par educational experience from their neighborhood school. Or they try a charter, private, parochial or schools-of-choice school. It's a tale of two cities, educationally.
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Yelloweyes
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some very good points made. In my opinion low MEAP scores is the direct result of low parent involvement, both in the charters and publics. Ethically I don't think corporations should be profiting from the public education system. This is no different then the crooked administrators that run DPS. So what we have here in Detroit is similar to a 3-ring circus.
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Eric_w
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmr
"In the 1930's there was already a fair number of black students in the DPS. My mother knew several in her class at Cass Tech. The black students then also came from mostly traditional family structures, it was not just white students. "
That would be true however a lot of neighborhoods on Detroit's westside & the rest of town were mostly white even during the 60's. my sister attended Cooley ( Class of 1968 ) her classmates were mostly white-probaby 85 % or more. Redford in the 60's & 70's was overwhelmingly white at that time too.I moved from an area more than 95% black in 1967 to an all-white neighborhood. The difference in the two elementary schools I went to were like night & day. Burt Elementary was a far better & safer learning environment compared to my previous school.
My mom & her siblings went to Northwestern in the 1940's & early 50's-it was mainly white then according to her.
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Lmr
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric_w

I agree with your note. Back in the 1930's the DPS did have some black students, although the schools were for the most part highly segregated with a school being pretty much all black or all white. Cass Tech was a bit of an exception because it drew students from across the city, although it was definitely majority white. Before Cass Tech my mother went to Harms school and it was all white. Regardless of that, most students at that time of any color were living in traditional family structures...that was my real point. The notion of single women having children outside of marriage, keeping them and raising them alone was pretty much unheard of in the white community and not the norm in the black community in the 1930's and before. By the 1960's when you and I were in school, the DPS had already started it's steep decline and the demise of traditional families was beginning, too.
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English
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wish it weren't so politically incorrect to talk about the problem of out-of-wedlock births. I see it as a huge problem... an entire generation of fathers went absentee, and we're well into the 2nd generation of that.

As a former DPS teacher, I see it as a huge problem... but as someone with her pulse on the black community and the gender wars there, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Heal the black family, and we'll have better schools.
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Eric_w
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmr
Very true what you speak of & getting back to the original thread- maybe charter schools don't deliver as promised in a lot of cases. Again desperate parents will look to any avenue to try to get a better education for their kids
In the time period we've spoken of the 50's to 70's though Detroit was becoming integrated more & more, families will still pretty solid and single parent families were not the common thing today. As an example I knew of only one girl in my High school that became pregnant & had a child. Only knew because she was a neighbor to my relatives. There might have been more but today it's so common,the have day care centers in the schools for young moms. When my son graduated 3 years ago at least 6 girls were pregnant at commencement time-others were already moms and it it was weird for me to see young 17-18 year old girls holding up their children & taking pictures after the commencement ceremony. Several girls my son knew went to their prom in maternity clothes!
To refer to another comment above by English: Heal the black family etc... true, very true but when will it ever happen?
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Citylover
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

English, glad to see you are still here.........what will heal the black family?
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Izzadore
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree English. I do think however, that DPS has a great opportunity. They really need a fresh approach. An approach that takes parents out of the equation. Maybe it's impossible to really achieve a great student body without parent involvement but hey... DPS has to try something.

Both of my parents are DPS teachers and you would NOT (actually, I bet you would) believe how many times they had conferences with parents who either couldn't read, add or give a darn about their child(ren.) In these instances the parent cannot be trusted to help better the childs education. If the only dependance the system can get out of parents is making sure their children make it to school then let that be the ground floor.
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Detroit_stylin
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Umm English...
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Michigan
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know a lot about charter school performance. It seems to me that I have heard reports of them underperforming in other cities. But I can not be sure. What is in fact different in a charter school? If someone would shed light on that I would appreciate it.
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Lmr
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here in Minneapolis/St. Paul where I live charter schools are all the rage, too. Only here one of the main purposes they are used for is by different ethnic groups to isolate their culture...the philosophy seems to be whatever your ethnic group, race, culture, or religion, you can find a school for it here. For example, there is HOPE Academy, which stands for "Hmong Open Partnership ???" and it's 90%+ Hmong. Then there is Academia Cesar Chavez which is all Latino. There's a Chinese Immersion School, a school that is mostly Muslim African immigrants, etc. I haven't decided whether this is a good thing or not. Microdivision does seem to keep people happy. Then there are the regular public schools which vary widely in ethnicity/race. A large number of the white students and some of the black American students (as opposed to African immigrants) and mixed race students are either home schooled or go to private schools.
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Themax
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Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When you start talking about Detroit's problems, you can't forget drugs. From time to time I try to find where Detroit stands nationally on illicit drug use every since I heard that Detroit was second in the nation for IV drug use in the late '80's. These are the most recent numbers I could find (2005) for illicit drugs not including marijuana. Detroit is 6th in the nation according to the totals column.
http://oas.samhsa.gov/2k5state /ageTabs.htm#Tab6

The NIDA website gives all the cities included in the CEWG.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/nationtrends.html

(Message edited by themax on May 17, 2007)

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