  Treble484 Member Username: Treble484 Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2006 |
What's going on, I heard that the Masonic is struggling to stay open. Does anybody have some facts on its future? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2095 Registered: 06-2004 |
were you at the DHS talk yesterday? | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 1148 Registered: 02-2007 |
I think MAZE and Keith Sweat will be in concert there and another venue is expected also. Also, the play "Where I find MY People" with George Jefferson will be there this week also. (Message edited by Urbanize on May 07, 2007) (Message edited by Urbanize on May 07, 2007) | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 276 Registered: 06-2005 |
I can see why venues are struggling in Detroit. Nothing is even booked over memorial day weekend (Saturday May 26th). Nothing at fox, masonic, opera house, state, or fisher. The only venue I found with anything booked is the DSO, tiger game and RESPECT at the Gem theater. They are begging for people to come down town, but come on give them a reason to. Even the Century Grill called and canceled my dinner reservation for that saturday night. They have decided to "close for the summer". | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 496 Registered: 03-2006 |
Nobody wants to go indoors on Memorial Day. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2596 Registered: 10-2003 |
Masonic is struggling not because of the theater. It is struggling because it is a huge building that happens to have a bunch of small theatres inside. The rest of the building is virtually unused. The receipts from the theater have a hard time making up for the monstrous utility and maintenance bills the rest of the building generates. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2097 Registered: 06-2004 |
From what I heard - endowment is gone, future is up in the air, MTA has been mismanaging for decades, theatre contract is horrible & inescapable | ||
Cliff19336 Member Username: Cliff19336 Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2007 |
Wasn't there a rumor about a renovation and possible hotel going in or near the Masonic? | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 236 Registered: 09-2006 |
The heating bills alone would bury even the most successful of venues.. As for Memorial Day, isn't that the weekend of the Electronic/Techno Festival??? Hundreds of thousands of people downtown for that . Also, its a big weekend for up north visits for many Detroiters,, kinda ushers in the spring/summer so its not surprising there isnt a ton of other events also.. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9119 Registered: 12-2003 |
Over two hundred years of conspiracy theory threatened...no way the keepers of the secret could go out of business. Did they over-extend buying the American Hotel next door?! I wonder if they re-mortgaged using Rock Financial, and their flex payment just came due. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 277 Registered: 06-2005 |
Yea I know the music fest is in town and everyone wants to be outside, but the electronic music is not listened to by older folks like myself. I just found it odd thats all. Masonic sure is a beautiful building though and you guys are right the utilities alone are unimaginable for me! | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1836 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Yes, there was renovation planned with apts / lofts, etc. I don't remember all the details off the top of my head. I don't where they are at with that right now. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 463 Registered: 11-2006 |
Century Grill is closing for the summer??? Umm, thats odd. There will be two million Tiger fans downtown this summer, walking right by the place... shucks | ||
Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 36 Registered: 02-2007 |
The Masonic is one of the most popular tours the Detroit Historical Society offers each year and for good reason: The building is probably the most amazing place many people will ever see in their lives. There are no superlatives to describe it. The problem with the Masonic is that--like so many landmarks in our city--there may be a surplus of sentiment, but a deficit of economic utility. Sure, we'd all love to bring back Bob-Lo, the United Artists Theatre, Michigan Central Station, Tiger Stadium, etc., but after the initial spike in interest, how could any of these attractions remain economically viable? With attractions of such scale and in an economy stuck in winter, novelty is not enough. I don't raise these points to be a cynic or a killjoy. The truth is, as a passionate preservationist, I wonder what is to be done. One of the saddest elements of the Masonic is not the building, but the decline of a general public interest and investment in associations that exist for nothing more than to build a better society. Who has spare time for that anymore? It seems to be an idea that no longer holds up in our economy. Perhaps that is the root of the problem. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 973 Registered: 10-2006 |
You can rent out space! I saw that a friend of my friends did that for their wedding reception. Seems like a really great idea, sort of like a country club, but near by the CBD instead (and a lot more character). It got me wondering how often that happens at the Masonic. | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 119 Registered: 01-2005 |
The Detroit Masonic Temple is the largest Masonic Temple in the world. It opened in 1926, stands 14 stories tall, and has 1,037 rooms.  | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2134 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:That's a very insightful observation. I doubt anyone would disagree with it. Do you think it's a cyclical phenomenon or are these associations to fade away permanently? | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 1519 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: I'm not sure the Masons fit that description. I took the DHS tour and the Mason who was the guide spent more time talking about the "old boys club" and networking aspects of the Masons than their charity work. He seemed more enthused about the club aspects of it. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2296 Registered: 07-2004 |
Recently I had dinner with some friends. One of my friends had just saw the documentary Jesus camp. One of his and his wifes observation was the starkness and sameness of the surroundings.He said it he reminded him of orange county Calif where he has spent time. I don't know what the Detroit equivalent of that is but I bet it exists. The reason he mentioned it was that he wondered what kind of affect that had on people and if it mad them vulnerable to the religious zealots_ does the lack of beauty affect people? We got on the topic of architectural function as opposed to beauty. Myself and one of the friends were lamenting the demise of two UM bldgs,the Business admin school and the Frieze bldg.Another stated that it was neccesary because the b-school needed to be updated for wireless and the old bldg would not allow that_ we still protested........ The point as long winded as it may be is that places like the Masonic or the Fisher or Wall street or Chicago are awe inspiring.No matter what I may think of all the politics behind it all one can't help but be impressed. Is that true of orange county or Detroits equivalent? I do not say this to convince any of anything but only to point out that somehow these structures are something special. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4265 Registered: 08-2004 |
Citylover, well stated! Back in 2001 when I played tour guide for a bus load of 35 German tourists, I thought how am I going to top the cathedrals and palaces of Europe in trying to impress these people? Well I took them into the Guardian Building, and a private tour of the Fox. You should have seen their eyes light up! They were so impressed, that in all the following cities they visited (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee and yes even Chicago)... they kept telling their perplexed hosts how wonderful Detroit was!! Buildings like Masonic Temple, Fox Theatre and Fisher & Guardian Buildings... these buildings ARE America's cathedrals and palaces. They inspire and they amaze... To lose them (as has happened so frequently in our short but recent past) diminishes us as a society!! I think that Frank Lloyd Wright said it best (and I am paraphrasing here)... "great buildings and architecture is what future civilizations will judge our civilization by". (Message edited by Gistok on May 07, 2007) | ||
Imperfectly Member Username: Imperfectly Post Number: 225 Registered: 06-2004 |
I know 2 couples getting married at the masonic temple this fall. I never knew you could do that. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 340 Registered: 02-2007 |
well said Gistok....I was having a conversation with and architect today and was discussing Detroit's architecture....we have had some great gems. Residential architecture was always fascinating to me and I believe we had some of the best....Chicago obviously has a strong tradition and historic treasures are well preserved elsewhere. I was wondering about the Fisher, I was always amazed at it beauty. I went there as a kid to a specialist for my hip, ironically named Dr. Fisher. I used to think he owned the Building. Went to a play there also...since I have been gone awhile is the building still used to it's capacity? | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 66 Registered: 03-2007 |
The Masonic Temple has had a problem for years. Basically, declining membership in the "Blue Lodges" or craft lodges has hurt the place tremendously. I can speak with knowledge about the former Phoenicia Lodge #531 because of several family members who were members, and because of my limited involvement. Phoenicia merged with Waverly Lodge #527 because both lodges became too small. After the merger in the late 1980's their membership was around 500. Many lodges have attempted to leave the Masonic Temple to avoid folding. However, the Grand Lodge of the State of MI prohibited that action. Consequently, when the membership becomes too small they have to either merge or fold. Phoenicia-Waverly eventually folded and the remaining members became apart of Zion Lodge #1. Zion Lodge was was large lodge for decades and last I checked they were down to 450 members. The Masonic Temple was constructed for a membership of 56,000 back in 1926. I think they are down to approximately 3,000. The number is not enough to support that building. The Shrine leaving the temple was devastating and for years they were the largest tenant. The neighborhood has also been an issue since the 1960's. Actually, in the 1950's they had an old lady watching cars for them on lodge nights so it wasn't exactly back then at night either. I know people who were themselves Detroit residents in the 1970's that if Blakers parking lot on Second was full they would skip lodge business meetings at the temple. The parking lot in the back of the Temple was not available until later. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3847 Registered: 10-2003 |
Don't totally panic yet. My little birdies tell me that Atanas Ilitch has met with the Masons and Olympia Entertainment is positioning itself to take over when the Nederlander contract expires later this year. [But Skipper's Rule applies on this one.] Beyond the magnificent theater, ballrooms and gyms, the building does not lend easily lend itself to readaptation. What do you do with huge lodge halls? They are splendidly appointed with incredible wood and stone work but useless beyond masonic rites. It will take real genius to figure out the reuse for that one. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 67 Registered: 03-2007 |
The English Tudor room on the third floor of the Temple (level 3M) was home of Phoenicia Lodge #531. This same room was used to film the trial scenes for Judgement at Nuremberg in 1961. I have many pictures of that room in color from the 1970's and 1980's around. I may post them at some point. The Master's chair was removed (the East) and used for witnesses during the movie scenes. The judges were seated along the side walls of the lodge room which seat most other non-officer Masons during lodge meetings and family/friends during installations. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 68 Registered: 03-2007 |
"I know 2 couples getting married at the masonic temple this fall. I never knew you could do that." Yes, they have had weddings probably since the building opened. They have a chapel on the Knights Templar side of the building. Three reasons for the lack of weddings over the years there is because until the 1980's alcohol was prohibited in the building. Second, as I mentioned in the previous post about the neighborhood, and lastly the food quality has been a turnoff. "I'm not sure the Masons fit that description. I took the DHS tour and the Mason who was the guide spent more time talking about the "old boys club" and networking aspects of the Masons than their charity work. He seemed more enthused about the club aspects of it." The tour guide and what lodge he was from would be interesting to know. Please don't lump all Masons together. The craft is very diverse. Business meetings can last a very longggg time because of diverse opinions. Shriners hospitals still do not charge families for their children's care. In Detroit its not as noticeable some of things Masons have done because an institution like a Shriners hospital is not located here. For years like so many others they have helped keep the blood banks supplied among other things. I could go on but I don't have the time at this moment. "the building does not lend easily lend itself to readaptation. What do you do with huge lodge halls? They are splendidly appointed with incredible wood and stone work but useless beyond masonic rites. It will take real genius to figure out the reuse for that one." I guess the administrator wants apart some of our histories tossed out the door. I'm just throwing a dig at you. Your question actually means nothing if Grand Lodge isn't going to listen. They call the shots with that building. MTA(Masonic Temple Association) politics has always been an adventure between everybody there. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2102 Registered: 06-2004 |
We were recently told that the Detroit #2 lodge has actually been gaining members and the average age for them is now 40-50 instead of ~65 for the other lodges | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 69 Registered: 03-2007 |
"We were recently told that the Detroit #2 lodge has actually been gaining members and the average age for them is now 40-50 instead of ~65 for the other lodges" Good News if that is true. I hope you are correct. Its been a downward trend for so long down there. I'm wondering if the Michigan Mason spots run during Tiger games have helped. I remember someone from Detroit Lodge #2 participated in a family member's installation as Master of Phoenicia-Waverly Lodge 527. He was one of the earlier masters after Phoenicia and Waverly merged. | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 472 Registered: 11-2003 |
My brother got married and had the reception in the Masonic Temple a few years back. My band played the reception as well as Brendon Benson. Good memories. I hope the place never gets shut down. What a shame it would be. | ||
Dj_hyper_active Member Username: Dj_hyper_active Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2007 |
"I was wondering about the Fisher, I was always amazed at it beauty. I went there as a kid to a specialist for my hip, ironically named Dr. Fisher. I used to think he owned the Building. Went to a play there also...since I have been gone awhile is the building still used to it's capacity?" The Fischer Building Is doing fairly well In these hard times, I know for a fact that most of the floors are occupied because I was bored one day and explored the entire building (At one point I actually got on the roof on the adjacent tower). Very few floors are vacant. As for the Masonic however that's a totally different story, I have spent a day throught out the building investigating all of its nooks and crannies and I must say their are a lot of secret hallways, winding staircases that seem to lead no where, and some incredible yet random rooms. When I was their back in November I felt like this building was getting ready to be shutdown, even though it seemed occupied by several tenants including a gospel record label; I had a sneaky suspicion that this would soon be a place that would compare with the likes of an MCS or Broderick. I have to say it is probably my favorite theatre in the building in the D, and I urge you all to try to do a little exploring of it when you have a chance, you'll be stunned. | ||
Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 37 Registered: 02-2007 |
I'm afraid that in our society, there is no longer any use for beauty or charity. And that is just the problem. Beauty and charity are not supposed to be useful. The value of beauty and charity is not in their utility. Beauty and charity exist for their own sake. I would be curious to study the place of beauty and charity in our society now compared with the 1920s. We don't build "cathedrals" like the Masonic Temple anymore because that kind of beauty is expensive and does not offer sufficient economic returns. Much of what we call "charity" in our society is, in reality, corporate and personal publicity and, like beauty, is often valued based on an economic return (revenue, funds raised, etc.). We must preserve places like the Masonic Temple--and for that matter, associations like the Masons--or our society loses the very things that prevent our lives--and our society--from being reduced to nothing more than dollars and cents. A world in which each person, place, or thing is judged worthy or not worthy based on its economic worth (apart from beauty and charity) is a dangerous and ugly world indeed. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 545 Registered: 07-2004 |
I think a university would be great in the building. No reason a university can't expand into that building. Just think Oakland University-Masonic Campus. Or even a combo. Oakland University and Wayne County Community College Masonic Campus. (Message edited by miketoronto on May 08, 2007) (Message edited by miketoronto on May 08, 2007) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2299 Registered: 07-2004 |
Masonic was offered to WSU they did not want it _ maintenance costs | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1181 Registered: 11-2004 |
My fiancee and I looked at the Masonic as a possible location for our reception. The building is absolutely stunning. Arguably the most beautiful building in the state. We were very impressed with the structure. However, we decided against holding our reception there because of the surrounding neighborhood. We have a lot of relatives out in the exurbs and other parts of the state who don't think highly of Detroit. They wouldn't hold up well in the heart of the old Cass Corridor. It's one thing to go to a show there when there are thousands of other people around you. It's another when there isn't and our reception isn't going to be that big. The only way we would have chosen the Masonic is if it was a few thousand dollars cheaper than other city locations, such as the Detroit Yacht Club, Gem Theater or the Roostertail. It wasn't and it only does about 40 receptions a year, another thing that made us pause. But the building and the person showing us around were so impressive that had the immediate neighborhood been in better shape it would have been at the top of our list. | ||
Detroit_girl Member Username: Detroit_girl Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2003 |
E_hemingway: I hear you. I was thinking about the Masonic for my wedding and reception as well but it's just too expensive. Plus I was doubting the quality of the food, which someone mentioned earlier. It is beautiful, though. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2104 Registered: 06-2004 |
The area immediately around Masonic is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, though it's still not great. With all the lodge rooms it might make a good conference center. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 70 Registered: 03-2007 |
"As for the Masonic however that's a totally different story, I have spent a day throught out the building investigating all of its nooks and crannies and I must say their are a lot of secret hallways, winding staircases that seem to lead no where, and some incredible yet random rooms." Yes, especially trying to get to the roof is a challenge. Have you ever been in the freight elevator in the back just next to the north entrance ? It is an adventure. They have a an old manual elevator left and elevator operators were still being used into the 1970's. Much of the building is unfinished because of the Depression. Actually, some lodges moved out during depression and returned. For instance, Phoenicia #531 moved to the Highland Park Masonic Temple in 1933 and by order of Grand Lodge returned to the Detroit Masonic Temple in 1935. "Plus I was doubting the quality of the food, which someone mentioned earlier. It is beautiful, though." I mentioned the food because of dinners I have attended there. Also, I heard some stories about a couple of receptions there and apparently the food quality is not upgraded sad to say. "The area immediately around Masonic is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, though it's still not great" True, but its reputation has remained and which hurts badly. The neighborhood isn't as bad because they have knock down several buildings around there. In the early 1990's some people leaving lodge one night heard automatic weapon fire. Plus, the Temple is not being secured like it should be and people are sometimes getting in to cause trouble. I love that building and wish things could be like they were in the past, but that is not reality. That building has caused several lodges to go under because Grand Lodge wanted to save the building and forced them to stay. I think that building has been a love-hate relationship for the members of Freemasonry. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4271 Registered: 08-2004 |
Besides the 4600 seat Masonic Temple Theatre, and the 1585 seat Scottish Rite Theatre, there is interestingly enough a 3rd, never completed theatre on top of the tower. It was framed in but never finished. It included a balcony, and although a potential seat count was not given, it probably would have been able to handle about 500-800 people had it ever been completed. It has been used for storage ever since the 1920's. | ||
Wirt Member Username: Wirt Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2005 |
 Just another image | ||
Dj_hyper_active Member Username: Dj_hyper_active Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2007 |
What is the status of that adjacent police substation? When I was exploring the building I actually tried to find every possible entrance to it but was shut down by locked doors at every turn. Does anyone know when it went out of commission and what was there before it? | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 201 Registered: 06-2005 |
The Masonic is a great place to play and watch roller derby. The next "bout" is this Saturday. Doors open at 7pm and the skating starts at 8pm. http://www.detroitrollerderby. com/ It's in the drill hall, which is currently only used for the monthly derby bouts. | ||
Traveler357 Member Username: Traveler357 Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2007 |
The police mini station closed some years ago. The space it occupied was originally used by car park valets and chauffers. When we had a clean-up of Cass Park a couple of years ago, we used the mini station space as a staging area. There was still a working telephone in there that belonged to the police department. Can you imagine it? Walking into a dusty, musty old office that nobody's used in years, you pick up the phone-- and it works? Some photos of the Temple are posted at www.unionlodge.net (Message edited by traveler357 on May 13, 2007) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2136 Registered: 06-2004 |
Imagine my surprise when I heard a radio ad for the Masons today. Maybe they're really starting to come back! | ||
Traveler357 Member Username: Traveler357 Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi, Wirt, Thanks for posting the beautiful photo of the Temple. Do you know when it was taken? Incidentally, the president of the Detroit Masonic Temple Association at the time of the building of the Temple in the 1920s was also named Wirt-- Wirt I. Savery, if memory serves. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4323 Registered: 08-2004 |
... and lest we forget... Wirt Rowland... architect of the Penobscot, Buhl and Guardian Buildings.... that Wirt worked for architectural firm Smith Hinchman & Grylls, today known as The Smith Group. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 269 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote: Are you sure the Masonic Temple was used for Judgment at Nuremberg? I just watched the movie last night. In the DVD extras, the director's wife said all the interior scenes were done in Hollywood. I can't find any other references... |
