Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11554 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Just drove by and saw a crew of about 12 working on the Moose Lodge. They had a small crane in place, removing the HVAC it appeared. They were also removing what seemed to be roofing of some sort, probably in preparation of repairing the roof. It seems that the place may be the venue that replaces St Andrews Hall now that it is for sale. With the C. C. Bar and a restored Moose Lodge, the addition of a new hockey arena would really bringing this area to life. It has already got a pulse these last few years, but it would be nice to see other stuff, like the Chen Tiki, also reopen. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1099 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:11 pm: | |
I was under the impression that the Moose would have to be demolished for the new hockey arena...what's this about restoring it? |
Kenp Member Username: Kenp
Post Number: 491 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:20 pm: | |
We wont let them tear down the Moose. |
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 236 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:30 pm: | |
quote:I was under the impression that the Moose would have to be demolished for the new hockey arena... Not if they fit it within this four block area:
|
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4257 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:44 pm: | |
Paging Dan for details..... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1100 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
"Not if they fit it within this four block area:" Sorry but I just see how the district could accommodate ANOTHER stadium placed right on top of existing parking space without (at the very least) replacing that parking, not to mention adding more... Putting a stadium on that 4-block space without touching the surrounding blocks simply isn't realistic, or wise for that matter My $$$ says Moose is getting knocked down...it's what makes the most sense (Message edited by thejesus on May 07, 2007) |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1101 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:00 pm: | |
"We wont let them tear down the Moose." I like how Detroiters like to label people like Patterson an "obstructionist" for standing in the way of economic development (i.e. Cobo) by representing his peoples' interests, yet Detroiters will stand in the way of new professional sports stadium that would be a HUGE for Detroit's economy if it means anything built before 1980 has to get knocked down... look, I love it when old building get saved, but there isn't anywhere downtown where stuff can be built without pissing someone off by knocking down a historic, dilapidated vacant structure...reality is that you can save a few of them, but you also have to sacrifice a few... now, all that said, I don't know that the Moose is being knocked down, but I simply don't see it surviving a decision to build a new hockey stadium in that spot |
Kenp Member Username: Kenp
Post Number: 495 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:07 pm: | |
I think many feel its ok to remove a building if it means something special is coming. The Commerce building is a good example. The Majority of Detroiters were ok with the decision to remove it. I for one was happy to see it go for the sake of progress. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4258 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:09 pm: | |
No the Moose is NOT getting knocked down. Not unless Ilitch already owns it, which he doesn't. It is owned by Blair McGowan, who probably doesn't want to sell (he's a preservationist, and knows what Ilitch would do to the building). There is plenty of Ilitch owned empty land that can accommodate parking structures for an arena on that 4 block site. The Cass Adams block just south of this picture, is Ilitch owned and mostly empty (for a parking structure). And that empty block at the top of the picture could also be Ilitch owned, meaning another possibility for a parking structure. If you're thinking large spacious land area with a sea of parking (like around Comerica Park and Ford Field), then forget it. The vote to end Eminent Domain in the last ballot initiative has nixed that idea. |
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 140 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:12 pm: | |
There are two reasons why the stadium won't fit in on those 4 blocks. 1. No way, the guy who owns Centaur and has put so much money into making that location work is gonna sell. 2. The fire station next to Centaur is the closest fire station to downtown. They would want to keep that for insurance purposes. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4259 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:14 pm: | |
...and also, Cass Ave., the street east of the Moose CANNOT be closed for a new Arena (it's the main thoroughfare between downtown and western midtown). Clifford, on the other hand, can be closed. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4260 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:19 pm: | |
I don't think any buildings ALONG Park Ave. will be in danger of coming down for a new arena. An aerial overlay of both JLA and the Palace has been done ad nauseum on many old "west Foxtown Arena" threads for this 4 block site. So it appears doable without tearing down Park Ave. buildings. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1102 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:24 pm: | |
"...and also, Cass Ave., the street east of the Moose CANNOT be closed for a new Arena (it's the main thoroughfare between downtown and western midtown). Clifford, on the other hand, can be closed." There's no reason Cass would have to be closed, so let's not even discuss that...Brush is the eastside equivalent to Cass and it survived two stadiums being built... |
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 238 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:26 pm: | |
There is plenty of parking outside those four blocks for a ramp or two:
And it's been shown that a stadium could fit and still save the Centaur & Fire Station buildings. |
Bobj Member Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2085 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:29 pm: | |
That would great to see! |
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 239 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:31 pm: | |
And with a JLA overlay:
|
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 1150 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:34 pm: | |
They would have a better chance building the thang at the Woodward spot. At least there's more space to work with. At the same time however, I would love for Parking Lot World to get developed and the Hockey Arena appears to be it's only hope. Problem is, THERE'S NO ROOM. How come Ilitch just can't hustle up the Gratiot lot and build on it. It will be in close proximity to the Casino and other stadiums |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4261 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:47 pm: | |
I believe that the price tag of over $30 million (what Greektown Casino paid for it) is a major hindrance. And let's see about spin-off.... Juvenile Hall to the south... city and county Jail & Murphy Hall of Justice to the west... freeway to the east... so I wouldn't bet on that site! And besides... Greektown Casino is NOT the one owned by Marion Ilitch. |
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 1152 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:59 pm: | |
I'm aware that the Ilitches don't own Greektown Gistok. So either places get demoed or no stadium. That's that. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 974 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 7:11 pm: | |
The Moose might not have to be torn down for a stadium. Remember that the Gem theatre was renovated just prior to Comerica Park going in. The Gem was moved (albeit only after a law suit) and saved; not torn down. A similar thing COULD happen with the Moose. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 975 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 7:23 pm: | |
Plus, I think that there is already enough stadiums in that area... |
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit
Post Number: 468 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 7:25 pm: | |
well, pal, a stadium is going there. It really doesnt matter what you think about that. And Ilitch will knock down anything in his way. Lets hope he chooses a site with minimal structures |
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 1157 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
Well maybe if we built the stadium the long way (along Cass), then maye it will limit the amount of demoltion. However, I still think the far buildings closest to Clifford on those E/W streets will have to go. |
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 246 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:01 pm: | |
This, it seems to me, is the most workable footprint for a foxtown arena. Entrance plazas could be located on Adams Ave. and on Park Ave. Between this new arena, the Fox Theater and Comerica Park there could finally be enough pedestrian traffic to allow Ilitch to develop the shopping arcade along Columbia St. between Park and Woodward Ave. that he has been planning for years. The only problem with this site would seem to be a renovated C. C.’s Bar. I don’t know what’s up with that. |
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 1161 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:06 pm: | |
Thanks Ramcharger for laying out my image of the arena. MAybe this will lead to some type of development for the Films building if the stadium is built that way. I still would rather have a retail strip along Grand River. I like your outline though. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4266 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:05 am: | |
Spiritofdetroit... just in case you are not familiar with the situation since the last election. A statewide ballot initiative passed that severely curtailed the use of Eminent Domain in Michigan. If Mr. Ilitch really wants to knock down anything in his way, he will have to do so by purchasing the properties outright. There will no longer be a city or county authority to strip landowners of their property without consent. |
Dan Member Username: Dan
Post Number: 1396 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:11 am: | |
I cannot get into details regarding the moose, but I will say this; There is some stabilizing work going on, and the building is not going anywhere. |
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit
Post Number: 470 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:11 am: | |
Gistok- I am aware of that, however I really dont think that will affect Ilitch too much. He already owns a huge majority of the necessary land, and many of the buildings that would be torn down are already under his ownership. He owned far less land with the Comerica deal. I would think that he would be able to stiff-arm a couple of land owners if necessary to fit his plans |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4267 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:18 am: | |
And with that I agree Spiritofdetroit... all he has to do is to "imply" to reluctant landowners, that he would prefer to buy their property, rather than wall them in by encircling them with a super parking structure. |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 283 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 4:37 am: | |
Good point, Gistok. I remember in the late 70s when Atlantic City was building their casinos and a few holdouts held out. They literally built around them. At the end, I'd suspect a few reluctant landowners would finally 'cave' when they see the writing on the wall. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1107 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
"I cannot get into details regarding the moose, but I will say this; There is some stabilizing work going on, and the building is not going anywhere." Somehow I doubt this... |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1619 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 11:44 am: | |
There will likely be landowners in that area who simply will not sell, no matter what Ilitch offers. More power to them. I'm anxious to see what the renovated C.C. Bar building looks like. If it comes back as a bar, I will make a point of patronizing it on a semi-regular basis. Same goes for the Moose Lodge. |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 2061 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:48 pm: | |
|
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 326 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
"renovated C.C. Bar" You know this is not going to happen, right? |
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4044 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:50 pm: | |
Caption please? |
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox
Post Number: 1068 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:58 pm: | |
quote:Detroit_stylin Caption please? Don't piss of the guys with backhoes! |
Matt Member Username: Matt
Post Number: 1183 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
God, I just love people who think they are civil engineers because they have access to Google Maps and Microsoft Paint. |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 2062 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
Mouseover the photo for the caption, please. |
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4047 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:10 pm: | |
No see el caption... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1109 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:13 pm: | |
The caption is: "CC Bar, 2008" |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 728 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:22 pm: | |
Isn't that building on one of those preservation lists that would prevent it from being torn down? |
Crew Member Username: Crew
Post Number: 1255 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:24 pm: | |
list? what list? we don't have no stinkin' list! |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4270 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:37 pm: | |
OK.... I'm starting to worry now... the one person who CAN answer our questions about the Moose Lodge is "DAN"... and he is not answering. Dan... please come to the courtesy phone.... |
Dan Member Username: Dan
Post Number: 1397 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
Gistok, see above post ;) Heeee |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1116 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
Gistok: I don't think Dan or anyone else on this forum really knows what going on with that building...it's all speculation at this point |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4273 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 4:44 pm: | |
Thanks Dan, I somehow missed your earlier post. Thejesus... yeah I think that Dan is clueless... only because HIS FATHER OWNS THE BUILDING!!! (Message edited by Gistok on May 08, 2007) |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1127 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:39 am: | |
right, and McGowan's my twin brother, and so I have inside information too...see how easy that is? The fact of the matter is, Dan has provided no information about the building other than to say that he can't provide any information about the building...you could have asked me and I would have given the same answer...I suppose I just need a little more verifiable information than some before I take someone's comments on an internet forum to the bank... Anyway, I see one of two possibilities here... 1. Ilitch bought the building or struck a deal with the owner to level it for the hockey arena, and the building is being prepared for demolition, but they are keeping it hush-hush so they don't have to deal with all of the the historical preservation obstructionists-types who'd rather keep a vacant building standing than develop a new hockey arena... 2. More likely is that the site is needed or very much wanted for the part of the new hockey arena plans and McGowan knows this and is anticipating being sued by Ilitch or the city for the property, so they are making improvements to the structure to make it harder for the city to condemn it and to make it appear that they had a legitimate use planned for the Moose and that they aren't just speculators trying to cash in big on plans for a new hockey arena... (Message edited by thejesus on May 09, 2007) |
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:51 am: | |
2 is partially correct. Why do you think the C.C. bar got a new roof last year. |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1628 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
Thejesus: You REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want a new hockey arena in that area, don't you? |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4280 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
The_jesus, if you were Blair's twin brother, you wouldn't be making such an ass of yourself on this thread... Dan in the past has mentioned several things about that building (as well as about Grosse Isle (where the McGowan's live) on another thread) that not just anyone would know about. Let's just let this play out, and then see who is the bigger fool... |
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 299 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 1:55 pm: | |
as telephonically witnessed from the mouth of mr. mcgowan: "the moose is not going anywhere...it will be here a hundred years from now" i believe it. coyly skirted were present and future ownership arrangements. imho, "ilitch land" is a reality that must be cajoled, monitored and (hopefully) inspired to be the best that it can be. it is NOT a long term solution for the CBD. a healthy city dictates numerous interests and developments working productively together. a single private owner monopolizing land is not an ideal state for the future of our detroit. in the near term, higher standards must be enforced! "park" land in ilitch town should be regulated as prime real estate in other major cores, not like the outskirts of a dustbowl carnival. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1135 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Fury: It's just a matter of balancing interests...I want a new hockey arena, period. Many people here, on the other hand, want to find any reason why a new hockey arena should not be built...doesn't matter where it goes..they'll always find some irrelevant structure (such as the Vermont Hotel) that they think should be saved, and if there isn't one, they'll just say it doesn't belong in the particular neighborhood (see the FBI building thread for more info on this asinine attitude) A new hockey arena would be a boon for the entertainment district and for Detroit in general...saving vacant structures is a good thing, but you can't realistically save them all, and certainly not at the expense of building a new hockey arena... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1136 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:08 pm: | |
Gistok: so it's me v. Dan suddenly? like one of us has to be wrong? he very well may have inside info...my point is, he didn't provide any in this thread, and I read those other threads about the Moose and he didn't provide any info that couldn't have been gotten elsewhere...all I'm saying is proceed w/ caution when taking facts stated on internet forums to the bank...or don't... |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9100 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:19 pm: | |
quote:see the FBI building thread for more info on this asinine attitude I love how you can dismiss the opinions of people that live in the area and have a vested interest in the area as an 'assinine attitude.' I believe that the difference is you are looking at what will make your visits more enjoyable whereas we are looking at what will make the city better for the residents. Two vastly different viewpoints with two vastly different interests. That said I like the idea of an arena back there be we do not need more parking. We also do not need to let Ilitch have his free will to do whatever he wants. An arena that is built as a fortress certainly will not a be 'boon' for the district as you say. An arena, properly built with consideration to the residents, to a scale that makes sense, and something that will encourgae traffic/business on non game days would be great. A blocked off arena surrounded by parking with no way to encourage spin off business, retail or traffic is not a good thing. Recreating a Tiger stadium style arena that does nothing for the area 284 days of the year isn't the best design in my opinion and the opinion of many others. Have some consideration to the residents when you tout your 'anything is better' attitude. Anything isn't always better. |
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c
Post Number: 962 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:31 pm: | |
Thejesus can't win on the FBI thread so he comes over here to name call where he thinks his less-than-well-researched opinions won't be attacked. This young boy knows everything - just ask him! |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1137 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:35 pm: | |
JT1: I was actually looking into moving downtown last summer...I was either going to get one of the condos at Riverfront towers or rent a loft at merchants row...but... then I started reading this board and saw how unwelcome people from the suburbs are in Detroit, especially those of us from, dare I say, Livonia...I found the attitudes of many of you to be rather disgusting and generally unpleasant,a dn decided I wouldn't feel comfortable living among you... After weighing to pros and cons, I decided to take my life and my dollars to the city of Northville, (which I've grown to absolutely love btw)... My goal is not to make Detroit a better place for me to visit...it's to make it a better place to live by marginalizing those of you with divisive attitudes toward the suburbs and to eliminate your obstructionist practices so that one day, maybe even by the time I graduate, Detroit WILL be a place where I want to live... P.S. My address may not be in the D, but I pay $18k every year (which is more than many of you spend in Detroit in a single year) to the city's primary research university alone, which I care about and would like to see make strides...I'd say that gives me enough of a vested interest to state my opinions...if you don't like it, that's tough... |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9102 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:41 pm: | |
quote:then I started reading this board and saw how unwelcome people from the suburbs are in Detroit, especially those of us from, dare I say, Livonia...I found the attitudes of many of you to be rather disgusting and generally unpleasant,a dn decided I wouldn't feel comfortable living among you... After weighing to pros and cons, I decided to take my life and my dollars to the city of Northville, (which I've grown to absolutely love btw)... I do not for a second believe that your home buying decision came down to how people were on a message board. This board represents a fraction of a percent of the citiznes of Detroit, if that much.
quote:My goal is not to make Detroit a better place for me to visit...it's to make it a better place to live by marginalizing those of you with divisive attitudes toward the suburbs and to eliminate your obstructionist practices so that one day, maybe even by the time I graduate, Detroit WILL be a place where I want to live... Yo ustill aren't getting it. Hoping for development that is smart and will make the area better is not obstructionist. You throw that word out too easily. Do you think that a fortress arena, surrounded by parking will make the area better?
quote:P.S. My address may not be in the D, but I pay $18k every year (which is more than many of you spend in Detroit in a single year) to the city's primary research university alone, which I care about and would like to see make strides...I'd say that gives me enough of a vested interest to state my opinions...if you don't like it, that's tough... Your claim that 18K is more than many of us spend is really pushing it. $18K is only $1500 per month. My mortgage is more than that and I assume that the majority of people that live in the city more than cover that between mortgage, insurance, utilities, taxes, etc. That comment once again shows your attitude. You are free to give your opinion but the fact that you have very little or no respect for the opinions of those of us that live in the city shows how narrow minded you can be. PS - I already paid my full tuition to WSU for my masters and a chunk of my undergrad. That certainly doesn't make me an expert on every decision that WSU makes. |
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c
Post Number: 963 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:42 pm: | |
"then I started reading this board and saw how unwelcome people from the suburbs are in Detroit, especially those of us from, dare I say, Livonia...I found the attitudes of many of you to be rather disgusting and generally unpleasant,a dn decided I wouldn't feel comfortable living among you..." So you're a very easily swayed pussy? So you can dish it out but can't take it? That is EXACTLY what you just said. "My goal is not to make Detroit a better place for me to visit...it's to make it a better place to live by marginalizing those of you with divisive attitudes toward the suburbs and to eliminate your obstructionist practices so that one day, maybe even by the time I graduate, Detroit WILL be a place where I want to live..." How do you plan on achieving that goal if you won't move here and don't like the people who ARE here? Why would you even bother? |
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal
Post Number: 1104 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:45 pm: | |
"After weighing to pros and cons, I decided to take my life and my dollars to the city of Northville, (which I've grown to absolutely love btw)..." Weighing pros and cons? More than likely Mommy and Daddy didn't want their child "in that city". I'm amazed they even let you go to school at Wayne. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1139 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:47 pm: | |
Eric: dish what out? I don't attack people from Detroit like you guys attack people from the suburbs...I just attack morons who happen to live in Detroit...you guys, on the other hand, like to generalize... btw, I think I just saw a bulldozer going down Porter street by the FBI building site...I think you better go run and try to save that precious surface lot while you sill can...lol |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9104 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:47 pm: | |
quote:Weighing pros and cons? More than likely Mommy and Daddy didn't want their child "in that city". I'm amazed they even let you go to school at Wayne. thejesus annoys me as much as the next but that assumption is probably a bit of a stretch. |
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle
Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:49 pm: | |
Good lord (no pun intended) did you really reconsider moving to Detroit because of the opinion of a few people on a message board. You have to have a litter thicker skin than that. I would say that friends of mine that live in Detroit are approximately 70% west siders (mostly Livonia) while I am an east sider. Obviously the "divisive attitude" hasn't dampened their spirits. You have to take what people say and do on an anonymous message board with a grain of salt. (Message edited by mdoyle on May 09, 2007) |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1140 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:52 pm: | |
"Weighing pros and cons? More than likely Mommy and Daddy didn't want their child "in that city"." lol...I'm about a decade past that age buddy...I've been in the IT field for 8, going on 9 years and haven't received a dime from "mommy and daddy" since I was 16...lol |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1141 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:55 pm: | |
To all of you: No, I didn't base my decision to move to Northville instead of Detroit on a few morons on DetroitYes... it was more like a factor that tipped the scale in favor in Northville, and it wasn't just limited to people on this board...it about the general attitude and lack of respect people in Deteroit show towards people who were raised in the suburbs hope that clarifies |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9105 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:59 pm: | |
quote: I don't attack people from Detroit like you guys attack people from the suburbs...
quote:it about the general attitude and lack of respect people in Deteroit show towards people who were raised in the suburbs Hope that clarifies To have the gall to generalize about Detroiters like that is ridiculous. But we all know that there are no shitty attitudes about Detroit from people in the suburbs. You are coming off as quite a hypocrite by lecturing Detroiters about their views about the suburbs and ignoring the attitude of many in the suburbs about Detroit. I expect to see you on the Freep boards lecturing all of the anti-Detroit comments. |
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c
Post Number: 964 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:02 pm: | |
Clarifies that you're a pussy with no real desire to do a fucking thing. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9106 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:03 pm: | |
Stop being mean. It is obvious you must be speaking on behalf of all Detroiters. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1142 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:04 pm: | |
JT1: Hence the phrase, "general attitude"...seems everyone else got that but you...also, you're again dealing in absolutes...that's a big no no... "But we all know that there are no shitty attitudes about Detroit from people in the suburbs." hope that clarifies... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1143 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
"Clarifies that you're a pussy with no real desire to do a fucking thing." direct name calling gets you kicked off the forum Eric... nice knowing you... |
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c
Post Number: 965 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
Like there's anything left here, anyway? Nice knowing you too, pussy. ;) PS - Notice he didn't deny the point of my statement? |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9108 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
So are you saying that there is a general anti-suburb attitude in Detroit but not a general anti-Detroit attitude in the suburbs? I'm trying to understand your most current rationale? Do you want me to start linking to some of the comments of general attitudes of people in the suburbs that post on the Freep board? |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1145 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
No, I'm saying that you tend to assume that anyone from the 'burbs has an anti-Detroit attitude because you're prejudiced against suburbanites....I'm saying that I chose not to live in Detroit because of the general anti-suburbanite attitude there...it only takes a handful of people to make someone not feel welcome JT.. and what's more, you guys just don't get it, or you just fail to admit that you're driving away more people than just me with this attitude...but it sure does feel good to hate on the suburbs, doesn't it? I just hope it's worth it to you (Message edited by thejesus on May 09, 2007) |
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c
Post Number: 966 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:17 pm: | |
Actually, it just feels good to hate on assholes. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9111 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:18 pm: | |
quote:it only takes a handful of people to make someone not feel welcome But whenever anyone criticizes the suburbs you get defensive. Why the double standard? When people, often jokingly, refer to Livonia as racist you insist that the comments of a few don't represent Livonia but you are going with the opposite claim here.
quote:and what more, you guys just don't get it, or you just fail to admit that you're driving away more people than just me with this attitude... I highly, highly doubt that a forum really has a large effect on people's decision where to or where not to buy a home. Additionally, how many times have people been offered tours, help, advice, history, etc on this forum. Funny how you get much of the negative attitude. If many think that you are being a jerk you have to wonder if they are all wrong or if you are the one that is wrong. |
Gumby Member Username: Gumby
Post Number: 1584 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:22 pm: | |
quote:and what more, you guys just don't get it, or you just fail to admit that you're driving away more people than just me with this attitude... What are you talking about thejesus? It is this site and the people here that piqued my interest in Detroit and ultimatly Flint where I am the new owner of a house just outside of Downtown. It is attitudes like yours that turns me off the knowitall people who like to tel people how to run their lives. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9112 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:22 pm: | |
http://info.detnews.com/feedba ck/lettersindex.cfm?topic=detr oit_renaissance_0504&forum=dnl etters thejesus - Can you start calling out the anti-Detroit non-sense on this thread? I can post many more. But for me to believe that there is an anti-Detroit attitude from many in the suburbs is wrong whereas you can make assumptions about all of Detroiters attitudes on this board. Your hypocrisy and circular logic is pitiful. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1147 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:23 pm: | |
yep, anyone who applauds forward motion and economic development in Detroit must be an asshole...don't they realize that they're supposed to piss and moan about irrelevant structures being knocked down or throw a fit when surface lots get replaced by brand new buildings? you're a dying breed Eric...time to face it |
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c
Post Number: 969 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
You are a failure at debate, pussyboy. Time to face it; you lose AGAIN because you can't read: Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 958 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:00 am: ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- I THINK YOU'RE TOO THICK-SKULLED AND OBSTINATE TO READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN. YOU ARE DRAWING BIZARRE CONCLUSIONS AND ARE NOT READING WHAT I SAY. Never have I implied that I want to see buildings sit vacant. You are inserting words into my posts. In case you haven't been paying attention, Scott Martin and Corktown have been building beautiful, single-family homes in the style of a traditional neighborhood with great success in "North Corktown". They've also been working on plans for Tiger Stadium which are forward-thinking and modern, while at the same time work to preserve the scale and feel of the area. What's wrong with this kind of development? The "stick it there" development model has been going on in Detroit for decades. If that's "your way", you've got to know it fucks up neighborhoods. You should quit before you bury yourself anymore. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1152 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:42 pm: | |
oh that's right...you're the one who thinks that if the FBI doesn't build there, a bunch of single family homes are going to rise up on that site overnight.. lmfao! |
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c
Post Number: 971 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 3:49 pm: | |
No...there you are being dilusional again and putting words in my mouth. What I said was: Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 958 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:00 am: ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- I THINK YOU'RE TOO THICK-SKULLED AND OBSTINATE TO READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN. YOU ARE DRAWING BIZARRE CONCLUSIONS AND ARE NOT READING WHAT I SAY. Never have I implied that I want to see buildings sit vacant. You are inserting words into my posts. In case you haven't been paying attention, Scott Martin and Corktown have been building beautiful, single-family homes in the style of a traditional neighborhood with great success in "North Corktown". They've also been working on plans for Tiger Stadium which are forward-thinking and modern, while at the same time work to preserve the scale and feel of the area. What's wrong with this kind of development? The "stick it there" development model has been going on in Detroit for decades. If that's "your way", you've got to know it fucks up neighborhoods. In so far as where to put the FBI? You got me. The decision's been made and we're all going to have to deal. It's too bad that this is all that can be done. That said, I stand by my original statement and opinion that this suburban-styled bunker looks like hell and is inappropriate for the site. www.rif.org |
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox
Post Number: 1069 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:43 pm: | |
quote:Thejesus I don't think Dan or anyone else on this forum really knows what going on with that building...it's all speculation at this point Hey fucktard, Dan's father does own the building and Dan can't say whats going on. In the past I have worked at the Moose and St Andrews for his father. Would you give up your business plan to morons on a message board? |
Buzzman0077 Member Username: Buzzman0077
Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 3:51 am: | |
I think there is a little too much anger on all sides of this discussion. This is one of the nastiest erosions of a thread I have seen. |
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 167 Registered: 03-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 7:45 am: | |
WE ARE ON THE MOOSEHEAD THREAD RIGHT/? What the hell is wrong with you all. They say it's the youth thats destroying everything, but look at this discusion. All haters can now leave Detroit. Even though we hate to see another 10,000 leave this month, negative close minded peeps that we clearly forced into this hateration concentration camp can go to brownstown, Utica, and Livingston county, while Detroit slowly brings back to life the pieces of our quilt that once brought global astonishment. The Moose is gonna be so hot |
Buzzman0077 Member Username: Buzzman0077
Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:09 am: | |
word! |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1155 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:55 am: | |
"I think there is a little too much anger on all sides of this discussion. This is one of the nastiest erosions of a thread I have seen." I agree |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1156 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:59 am: | |
"Hey fucktard, Dan's father does own the building and Dan can't say whats going on. In the past I have worked at the Moose and St Andrews for his father. Would you give up your business plan to morons on a message board?" settle down there buddy...whether he knows or he doesn't, it tends not to matter for the purposes of this thread since the only info he provided was that he can't provide any info... that being the case, I'm speculating on what's likely going on there, and I say either a quite sale occurred and the building is being prepped for demo, or, more likely, the owner is making improvements in anticipation of a condemnation lawsuit by the city... |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4289 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 1:44 pm: | |
Well, I guess some folks minds are already made up then... I went back and re-read some of the more meaningful posts on this thread (by folks whom I know, but I will not "out")... and as has already been stated ad nauseum... "the Moose is not going anywhere". Dan has stated it, his father (via a phone call) has stated it, so that's good enough for me. For those of the rest of you who aren't sure about the future of the Moose, all I can say is. If the Moose were east of Cass, I might worry a little. But it is west of Cass, where the triangular footprint of the site is probably a little too small (there's also a church on that property, and even Mike Ilitch has learned... don't mess with the churches). So for those that do care and worry about the Moose, all I can say is "I'm not going to lose any sleep over it"!! In the future however, I will relish using the "I told you so"... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1159 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 2:24 pm: | |
"I will relish using the "I told you so"..." exactly who would you be saying this to? |
Kslice Member Username: Kslice
Post Number: 24 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 4:40 pm: | |
Yo, Da Moose aint goin nowhere! HockeyTown will always be in the Joe! Fox town already has the Tigers and Lions the dont need the Wings. Don't bother with Thejesus, he's just tryin to start stuff over and over. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4293 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 4:50 pm: | |
Kslice, I haven't seen you post before... so welcome! Yes Thejesus... I meant you... the "doubting Thomas"! This thread is getting tiresome, so don't expect any more replies... |
Kslice Member Username: Kslice
Post Number: 27 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 4:54 pm: | |
Thanks Gistok i've been on for a few weeks now. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1161 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 5:11 pm: | |
Gistok: So you're doubting the possibility that McGowan is making improvements to the building in anticipation of a condemnation suit by the city? Don't worry...if and when that happens, I won't sink to the level of "I told you so" ; ) we shall see Kslice: Welcome, btw...I'm not trying to "start stuff", just speculating on what's going on...and you're likely incorrect in stating that a new hockey arena will not be built in Foxtown... (Message edited by thejesus on May 10, 2007) (Message edited by thejesus on May 10, 2007) |
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 715 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 5:39 pm: | |
Really, the best place to put the new stadium would be in the Corridor north of 75. 'Course, Ilitch doesn't own the land there, so he wouldn't want to do that, but that's about the only way that area can be saved, me thinks. |
Erikd Member Username: Erikd
Post Number: 853 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 2:48 am: | |
quote:I was actually looking into moving downtown last summer...I was either going to get one of the condos at Riverfront towers or rent a loft at merchants row...but... then I started reading this board and saw how unwelcome people from the suburbs are in Detroit, especially those of us from, dare I say, Livonia...I found the attitudes of many of you to be rather disgusting and generally unpleasant,a dn decided I wouldn't feel comfortable living among you... After weighing to pros and cons, I decided to take my life and my dollars to the city of Northville. Thejesus, Your fear of not being welcome as a new resident of Detroit, just because you came from Livonia, is unwarranted. In fact, much of the anti-suburb sentiment on this forum is posted by Detroiters that have lived in the suburbs at some point in their lives. It seems that you did not understand the context in which most of these anti-Livonia/suburb statements were made, and took them as a personal insult...
quote:I don't attack people from Detroit like you guys attack people from the suburbs...I just attack morons who happen to live in Detroit...you guys, on the other hand, like to generalize... Thejesus, You like to throw around accusations at the Detroiters on this forum, but have you ever looked at the situation from our point of view? You said that you were on this forum in the summer of 2006, thinking about moving into a downtown apartment. You said that the anti-Livonia/suburb attitude turned you off, and made you feel unwelcome in Detroit. Did it ever occur to you that this anti-Livonia sentiment was caused by the grass-roots uprising of Livonia residents fighting to keep Detroiters out? In September 2005, over 500 Livonia residents flooded a city meeting to protest a new Wal-Mart, claiming that it would "ghettoize" the area, and attract too many Detroiters. In November 2005, the MAJORITY of voters in Livonia chose to opt out of the regional SMART transit system, in favor of creating a bus system that would only run in Livonia. ----------
quote:I didn't base my decision to move to Northville instead of Detroit on a few morons on DetroitYes... it was more like a factor that tipped the scale in favor in Northville, and it wasn't just limited to people on this board...it about the general attitude and lack of respect people in Deteroit show towards people who were raised in the suburbs I'm saying that you tend to assume that anyone from the 'burbs has an anti-Detroit attitude because you're prejudiced against suburbanites....I'm saying that I chose not to live in Detroit because of the general anti-suburbanite attitude there...it only takes a handful of people to make someone not feel welcome If it only takes a handful of anti-Livonia statements from a few Detroiters to make a suburbanite not feel welcome, what does a majority vote in Livonia to cut off transit services from Detroiters say? |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1170 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 9:23 am: | |
ErikD... In regard to the Walmart comment, a handful of residents (not 500) that live near the Walmart site made stupid comments at a planning commission meeting...so what? Livonia is 36 square miles large...wtf do those people have to do with me? And why do you guys ignore the fact that our elected officials (placed in office by a majority of Livonia residents to represent our interests) are the ones who told these assholes to sit down and stfu? And the SMART bus issue is just retarded...Livonia is hurting for $$$ like every other government in the area, so we eliminated a bus service we don't use...Detroit eliminates services they don't use all the time...perhaps one day when Livonia's financial situation improves it can start dishing out cash to benefit the people of Detroit again...OR, if the people of Detroit want to pony up the $$$ to get themselves to Livonia, they are more than welcome to...at the moment, however, Livonia can't afford it and Detroit should be GRATEFUL to Livonia that they had the service for as long as they did but the point is, none of what I posted matters to any of you because you simply get off on hating everyone from the suburbs... (Message edited by thejesus on May 12, 2007) |
French777 Member Username: French777
Post Number: 167 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 6:56 am: | |
Do you think the New " Joe" would be smaller or bigger or same # of seats |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4315 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:01 pm: | |
French777, it will likely have a similar number of seats. I doubt it will have fewer. A new arena will not only want to maximize the profits for selling out the house, but also compete against the Palace for other events. Building a smaller arena would work against that competition, even though it might provide better sight lines for hockey. But the rivalry between Mike Ilitch and Bill Davidson is so intense, that a new "Olympia" will likely be state of the art, and a 1st class facility. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1215 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:07 pm: | |
I wasn't aware Ilitch and Davidson were rivals...I always assumed they hung out in the same circle of sports franchise owners (i.e., Gilbert, Karmanos, etc.) |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4316 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:12 pm: | |
Nope... no love lost between Ilitch & Davidson. They're entertainment rivals, and from what I've heard don't like each other. I've also heard the same for Ilitch & Karmanos, but Karmanos was such a class act when he put the congrats sign on the side of his HQ when the Wings last won the Stanley Cup, that I am confused about that rivalry. Also, I don't remember any such signage on the side of the Fox Building when Karmanos's Hurricanes won the Stanley, however. I know that Gilbert and Ilitch are friendly. From what I understand, Atanas Ilitch & Dan Gilbert are good friends (similar age group). And Gilbert & Karmanos seem to be on good terms. That then begs the question about Gilbert & Davidson and Karmanos & Davidson. I can't keep it all straight! But definitely... no love lost between Ilitch & Davidson. (Message edited by Gistok on May 14, 2007) |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2150 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:30 pm: | |
The competition between Ilitch and Davidson is (among other things) entertainment bookings between The Palace and Ilitch's venue(s), not just sports teams. I gotta admit I'm not too keen on how the new casinos with performance spaces are going to impact the traditional downtown venues. I'd hate to loose a gem like Music Hall to a casino room. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1218 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:31 pm: | |
"no love lost between Ilitch & Davidson" hmmm...well, either way, they both have one foot in the grave and a decade from now the direction of both their holdings may look vary different |
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4079 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 9:03 pm: | |
"vary"? |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1258 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
so according to information in the thread below, it appears that Ilitch owns the Moose Lodge now...not sure why "Dan" was unable say as much... https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/101533.html?1179833816 (Message edited by thejesus on May 22, 2007) |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2621 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
Thejesus, Where does it say ilitch owns the moose lodge? I don't see that anywhere. The list includes properties owned by other individuals and the header to the list designates which properties are owned by Ilitch. The Moose lodge isn't one of them. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1259 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
Ndavies: Moose Building, LLC is listed as the owner of the Moose Lodge...according to the Michigan DLEG, the LLC was just formed in February and John Kotlar, Ilitch Holdings' VP of tax affaris, is listed as the resident agent for the LLC, which, coincidentally, shares an address with Olympia development (2211 Woodward)... so, assuming all this information is correct, it would appear that Ilitch now owns, or at least controls, the property P.S. The document that created the LLC was signed by none other than Atanas Ilitch (Message edited by thejesus on May 22, 2007) (Message edited by thejesus on May 22, 2007) |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 11 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:48 pm: | |
Thejesus, I'll confirm what you've posted here ... I was about to create your same post. You can see a complete map of some 160 parcels owned or controlled by the Ilitch organization and its affiliates on Maps.LIVE.com Also note at Maps.LIVE.com: Elizabeth Street Properties LLC (pins 157-161) and West Grand River Lofts LLC (pin 162) |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1260 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:54 pm: | |
Verifieable: Do you have anything else other than the maps.live site that lists the LLC as the owner of the Moose building? Also, would you mind providing a little background for us on theverifiabletruth.com, which I'm assuming you run... thanks |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 14 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 2:11 pm: | |
Records on file with the Wayne County Registry of Deeds indicate Moose Building LLC's association with the Moose Lodge property on Cass Avenue. And as you indicate, documents on file with the Michigan Department of Labor & Economic Growth indicate the affiliation with the Ilitch organization. |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 24 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 2:39 am: | |
On February 2nd an agreement filed with the Wayne County Registry of Deeds was entered into by Anban, Inc. (Blair McGowan) and Moose Building LLC (Ilitch controlled) for the Moose Lodge at 2115 Cass Avenue. On February 19th McGowan granted a warranty deed to Ilitch. By all accounts it looks like McGowan has either transferred ownership of the Moose Lodge to Ilitch; or Ilitch has an options agreement with McGowan for future acquisition. The terms of any agreement have yet to be disclosed and details were excluded from public documents on file with Wayne County. |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 25 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 2:47 am: | |
On February 2nd an agreement filed with the Wayne County Registry of Deeds was entered into by Anban, Inc. (Blair McGowan) and Moose Building LLC (Ilitch controlled) for the Moose Lodge at 2115 Cass Avenue. On February 19th McGowan granted a warranty deed to Ilitch. By all accounts it looks like McGowan has either transferred ownership of the Moose Lodge to Ilitch; or Ilitch has an options agreement with McGowan for future acquisition. The terms of any agreement have yet to be disclosed and details were excluded from public documents on file with Wayne County. Perhaps this will bring some clarity to all of the hearsay that's been posted here recently. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1265 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:00 am: | |
Nice! |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1689 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:46 am: | |
Ilitch will still have to build around the former C.C. Bar building. That one, for sure, is NOT owned by Ilitch, and it's being remodeled and will be reopened. |
Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1133 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:52 am: | |
no, not nice. now it can be leveled for surface parking, which is the M.O. of their "development" arm. |
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:05 am: | |
I don't get the whole Moose thing. Really. It's on the west side of Cass, so it shouldn't be an issue. Best bet would be to incorporate the Moose into any new stadium, i.e. Hudson’s. If they have to build ON Cass to link the two, route Cass below grade. Someone tell me I'm a genius. (Message edited by gotdetroit on May 23, 2007) |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 649 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
Gotdetroit: You're a genius. OK, the Feb 2nd agreement probably was recorded to provide notice to the public that Ilitch had an interest in the property, probably an option. Once a Warranty Deed was recorded , Moose Bldg. LLC became the owner. Normally,the consideration for the sale must be printed on the front of the deed UNLESS the parties filed a "Valuation Affidavit" which is not public information and permits the parties to avoid stating the consideration on the front of the deed and requires the Registrar to affix the transfer tax stamps (from which the consideration could be calculated) to the back of the deed. |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 309 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:47 am: | |
Doesn't this bit about the Moose and demo that other building strongly suggest things will happen this summer after the playoffs are over. When will be the announcement? |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1266 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
Emu: Yes. Personally, I'm holding out hope there will be a joint announcement of an arena and a building on the Statler site, given their close proximity and Ilitch's involvement in both...perhaps once both Ilitch's and Gilbert's teams are done with their playoff runs, we'll get some news... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1267 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:58 am: | |
"no, not nice. now it can be leveled for surface parking, which is the M.O. of their "development" arm." If they do, then so be it...that building wasn't going to be anything for the foreseeable future anyway... I'm just glad there's signs that something big is on the horizon... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1268 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
"I don't get the whole Moose thing. Really. It's on the west side of Cass, so it shouldn't be an issue." Any project to build a new stadium will also likely include improvements to the surrounding areas, such as street scape improvements and the removal or renovation of vacant, dilapidated structures... also, don't forget that not only are they putting a new arena in an area that already has two of them, but they're also building right on top of the existing parking for that area, which means they'll not only have to replace the parking they'll lose, but they'll also have to add more... there's more that goes into building a stadium than just the structure of the stadium itself... |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 310 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
I'll take a flier and say this: Hockey arena coming soon to Foxtown. Gilbert might be up to something soon but not at the Statler site. That's my 'exacta' pick (like picking the top two horses in a race). |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1269 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 12:05 pm: | |
I'd say it's highly unlikely Gilbert will build anywhere but the Statler site if he builds downtown...I suppose there's always the possibility that he'll occupy existing office space, but there's really no where else to build downtown that rivals the Statler site |
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 167 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 12:29 pm: | |
Thejesus, what about the Monroe block or the Hudson block? |
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 49 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
“Any project to build a new stadium will also likely include improvements to the surrounding areas, such as street scape improvements and the removal or renovation of vacant, dilapidated structures... also, don't forget that not only are they putting a new arena in an area that already has two of them, but they're also building right on top of the existing parking for that area, which means they'll not only have to replace the parking they'll lose, but they'll also have to add more... there's more that goes into building a stadium than just the structure of the stadium itself...” I get that, but I’m not seeing why (when compared to the rest of the area in question) why such a small footprint building that is the Moose would have to be leveled to include both a stadium and the requisite parking. The Moose is a building that is architecturally relevant, a connection to the past, if you will, and he (Ilitch) could score some major PR points by incorporating the Moose into a new arena, by both building new AND showing that he is sensitive to the past. Maybe it could serve as a waiting/concourse area like that new glass addition thing they put on the Palace. I know, I know, his preservation track record isn’t anything to scream about, but saving at least one “in the way” building that is, at least in my eyes, an attractive one, might smooth over a few naysayer’s. Not that naysayer’s matter when you own everything. I dream lots. 3rd world: thank you. |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 311 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 1:11 pm: | |
Thejesus - I'd bet existing space. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1270 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
Gotdetroit: I don't know if it has to be leveled or not but if I were Ilitch, I would definitely want control of that building/plot of land given it's close proximity to where the area is likely going...I can think of all sorts of things he may want to do with the building or with the site if the building gets leveled... |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 27 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 5:09 pm: | |
Has Illitch acquired the historic Moose Lodge in downtown Detroit, and what are his intentions? |
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 280 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 6:15 am: | |
Ilitches may add to monopoly... Real estate arm eyes Moose Lodge, which may be another step toward new hockey arena.
quote:When asked if he and his partner, Amir Daiza, are considering selling the Moose to the Ilitches, McGowan replied: "We will never put that building in jeopardy of being demolished. And we would not like to be in a position to stop them from putting up a new hockey arena." It may be difficult for them to reconcile those two positions. (Message edited by Ramcharger on May 25, 2007) |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1289 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 8:18 am: | |
"They haven't bought the building but appear poised to get a piece of the action if two veteran music promoters carry through on their promise of turning the building into a 1,500-capacity club and live music venue." nice! |
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 8:53 am: | |
Not if they move the building. |
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 177 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 9:48 am: | |
My hope is that Ilitch wants to partner with them in turning it into a club/concert venue and use the Olympia Entertainment wing of the empire to do the booking for the Moose Lodge. |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1704 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:21 pm: | |
The value of 220 W. Columbia keeps going up. |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 35 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 1:56 pm: | |
Clearly the parties have not been honest with reporter Louis Aguilar. Documents filed with the Wayne County Registry prove they have been talking and that the basis of a deal has been consumated. Blatant half-truths and lies are what prompted the creation of www.TheVerifiableTruth.com Karen Cullen is the Ilitch Family's "DeeDee Myers" -- not consulted during the strategic decision making process but thrust forward to deny the decisions. |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 36 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 1:58 pm: | |
The convenants and development restrictions in the "agreement" on file with Wayne County Registry apparently prohibt relocation of the building. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4393 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 2:04 pm: | |
Verifiable, I have to agree with you on their not being very honest with the News reporter. It would be VERY presumptuous of the Ilitch's to have an LLC with the "MOOSE" name on it, without there being some agreement in hand. |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 37 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 2:53 pm: | |
Moose Building LLC was given a Warranty Deed by Anaban, Inc. (McGowan) that was "received" by the Registry on February 19, 2007. Moose Bldg holds title to the Moose Lodge now. And they did yesterday when they denied it to Aguilar. An agreement between Anbar and Moose Building LLC was filed February 12 so it's a bit disingenuous for McGowan to say he's never heard of Moose Building LLC; unless of course, he wasn't aware of the deal. |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 38 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 3:29 pm: | |
Ilitch agreement requires Moose building be preserved & renovated, doesn't allow relocation |
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable
Post Number: 39 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 4:37 pm: | |
The Detroit News story today reported: "Blair McGowan, one of the co-owners, said he was unaware Olympia Development had formed a corporation named after the building ..." [reference to "Moose Building, LLC"] And yet Mcgowan, on behalf of Anban Inc., signed documents along with Atanas Ilitch, on behalf of Moose Building LLC, that were recorded with the Register of Deeds on February 12, 2007. And as sellor also signed over the title of the Moose Lodge property to "Moose Building, LLC" which was recorded on February 19. |
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
Verifiable, Stop advertising your website. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4406 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 5:07 pm: | |
quote:Verifiable, Stop advertising your website. Why his website is trying to sell any product, it provides good sound information, and he is sharing it with us. What's wrong with that? |
Eric Member Username: Eric
Post Number: 838 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 5:13 pm: | |
^^^ Please STFU. Verifiable has provided tons of valuable information on this subject. This is appears to be great news for the Moose Lodge. |
Colkurtz Member Username: Colkurtz
Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 5:14 pm: | |
We do not know all the facts & situations of this particular deal, if I was in their shoes, I may not want to tell a reporter the whole truth, or anything at all, unless of course that was part of my strategy. We have no idea of all the ins and outs of the deal. Nor do we have the absolute right to know all the details. I think it’s interesting that the owners of the CC Bar press on with their renovation, I wonder what their plan is? (Message edited by col.kurtz on May 25, 2007) |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4407 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 5:25 pm: | |
quote:We do not know all the facts & situations of this particular deal, if I was in their shoes, I may not want to tell a reporter the whole truth, or anything at all, unless of course that was part of my strategy. Then don't say anything at all. Nothing good comes from lying to the press. Telling a lie that can be easily disproved in a quick search of the public record is not only a bad move, it's sheer stupidity. |
Colkurtz Member Username: Colkurtz
Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 5:28 pm: | |
Again, you are not privy to all the facts, so I would hold off calling the man a liar. I think the most important thing is, it appears the building is safe. |
Bumble Member Username: Bumble
Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
quote:Nor do we have the absolute right to know all the details. It's a matter of public record. |