Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 294 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 12:33 pm: | |
3WC quote: "The FBI does not WANT a pedestrian friendly location for obvious reasons. " 3WC is exactly correct. I have a page from the Wash. Post about the new ATF Hdqtrs. in D.C. (it too is in an area I'd guess maybe a mile from the Capitol but not hardly an area full of pedestrian traffic and Quiznos, etc. etc. I find that area very quirky and hard to navigate or get around in. I'm sure that is fine with the ATF. The building isn't designed to be a tourist attraction). "Located behind by a (sic) three-story decorative security barrier..." Interesting it is near a new Metro stop. I guess that means it it okay for those working there to use public transit but leaves those potentially dangerous motor vehicles away from the building (there is some underground parking though). (Message edited by emu_steve on May 12, 2007) |
Dbest Member Username: Dbest
Post Number: 10 Registered: 03-2007
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 4:14 am: | |
This seems like it would help the corktown area. If it helps the area why does it matter how it looks. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5501 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 4:58 am: | |
How will it help Corktown? |
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 317 Registered: 04-2004
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 5:04 am: | |
I don't think people get it. Dbest, how about I construct a federal building behind where you live? How will that help you on a daily or weekly basis? This thing is entirely fenced off. You think Corktown residents are going to relax on the lawn? |
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57
Post Number: 120 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
It could increase the feeling of security and possibly deter criminal activity. That one seems pretty obvious. |
Kslice Member Username: Kslice
Post Number: 32 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:29 am: | |
LOL, criminal activity. They just want to catch terrorists before they cross from canada to Detroit. After 9/11 the FBI took all their people off Mafia and street gang work and put them on anti- terrorism. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5502 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:27 pm: | |
Even if it were to make the already safe neighborhood a little better, this is not enough to outweigh all of its negatives. The point is that the positives of this complex in Corktown just don't outweigh the negatives of such a walled complex. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4308 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:53 pm: | |
LOL... yeah I can see DetroitYes Forumers driving thru the Corktown area taking pictures of the historic homes... and then BOOM they get stopped and interrogated by FBI folks asking what they are doing taking pictures of the area... |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5503 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:29 am: | |
I'm surprised they didn't develop this office building under the Ambassador Bridge. lol |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1173 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:13 am: | |
when visitors to Detroit drive down the lodge or visit Corktown, they'll see a brand new building and a bunch of grass instead of the vacant, decaying structures and surface lots that are there now... that is how it will help corktown...by improving its image also, I think it's safe to say that a majority of Corktown's residents welcome this improvement to the area and that only handful hold the obstructionist/anti-progressive attitude...and those people just need to realize that there are plenty of other parcels of on which to build the type of structures they feel are more "appropriate" for the area... (Message edited by thejesus on May 14, 2007) |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4310 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
Does one notice a bunch of grass? More than likely visitors driving down the Lodge will notice very little at all (with the setback of the building on the 5 block campus). And will it make for a nice addition to the Detroit skyline? Maybe from Corktown, but probably not from the waterfront. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1191 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:55 pm: | |
Gistok: visitors to Corktown will see the grass...people driving down the lodge will probably see the building...either way, it's better than a bunch of cement and decaying structures hope that clarifies... |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9133 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:57 pm: | |
quote:also, I think it's safe to say that a majority of Corktown's residents welcome this improvement to the area and that only handful hold the obstructionist/anti-progressiv e attitude.. How many corktown residents do you know? How many have you spoken with in regards to this topic? You are making the assumption that you know what is better for the people in Corktown than those that live there. The people that I know in Corktown (yep, you can dismiss them as obstructionists) are not happy with this. Actually speaking to the people that live in proximity of this goes a long way. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1192 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:13 pm: | |
"You are making the assumption that you know what is better for the people in Corktown than those that live there." sort of like how you think YOU know what's better for communities that opt out of SMART bus than the residents of those communities, eh? |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9135 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
Tangent notwithstanding Have you spoken to anyone in Corktown about this? The two arguments aren't similar since you are claiming that this is good for Corktown (regardless what Corktown residents want) and I am claiming that opting out of SMART is bad for the region and saves Livonia very little money since they now run their indepent system. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1195 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
I don't think so...you've said it's a bad move for LIVONIA because it will hurt their local businesses...i.e., you know better than they do that the benefit they'll get from opting out of SMART doesn't justify the detriment...they beg to differ I've spoken to Corktown residents in the past who were glad the FBI was going to do something with the site...I've haven't gotten anyone's opinon on these specific plans, however, the people I know are progressives, not obstructionists, and I can virtually guarantee you they see this as a good thing... A more pedestrian friendly structure would have been nicer than these plans...however, I'm certain the people I know understand (unlike some others) that it's not a choice between these plans and a more pedestrian-friendly structure...rather, it's a choice between these plans and a cement surface lot and some ugly vacant buildings (Message edited by thejesus on May 14, 2007) |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9136 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:34 pm: | |
quote:I don't think so...you've said it's a bad move for LIVONIA because it will hurt their local businesses...i.e., you know better than they do that the benefit they'll get from opting out of SMART doesn't justify the detriment...they beg to differ What is the benefit of opting out of SMART? Knowing that may help your claims. The total estimated from Livonia would be $400K after they spend $2.3MMon their own system.
quote:I've spoken to Corktown residents in the past who were glad the FBI was going to do something with the site...I've haven't gotten anyone's opinon on these specific plans, however, the people I know are progressives, not obstructionists, and I can virtually guarantee you they see this as a good thing... First of throing around the term obstructionists is just ignorant. So people are happy that something was being done but you have no imput from any residents on this plan. Certainly puts you in a place to claim "I think it's safe to say that a majority of Corktown's residents welcome this improvement to the area and that only handful hold the obstructionist/anti-progressiv e attitude.." So you have no idea on the opinion of this development but you are certain that a majority weclcome the plan. As a budding attorney I hope that you do understand the concept of facts, not your baseless assumptions. Instead of making the assumption that you are so intellectually superior and know what is best it might make sense to actually hear what people in Corktown want. Of course if the majority disagree with you they must be ignorant obstructionists. When all of downtown is completely suburbanized it might even be good enough for you to consider a move there. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1199 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
golly gee, JT, you're right...I could really stand to learn a thing or two from some a**hole Detroit resident on an Internet message so I'll know the stuff out professors don't teach us in ls... |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9141 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 2:02 pm: | |
So I assume by that you have no imput from any Corktown residents about the current design. Thanks, got it. I guess the residents of Corktown could really learn a thing or two about what is best for them from someone that lives 20-30 miles away. I guess the urban planners and others on this board could also learn a lot about what is the best use of the space by a law student. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1209 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 3:03 pm: | |
JT: I just saw a couple guys prepping the buildings at Howard and 6th street for Demolition...you better run down there and go chain yourself to a pipe or something... |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 886 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 3:38 pm: | |
Hahaha. I'm gonna guess that the "law student" thing is a rosy fiction. Thejesus' grasp of rhetoric is truly underwhelming. Eric C is administering a debate-class beatdown. Marvelous to behold. But, as they say about pearls before swine, a shame... |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 300 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 3:57 pm: | |
while this debate goes on, how about a little 'background' info: Maybe a little 'sideground' info: What is on each side of the proposed new campus? Anything? Does it blend at all? Does it look like 'visual shock'? |
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4077 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 4:12 pm: | |
It looks like visual ass Emu... |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 301 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 4:30 pm: | |
I did the Google Earth or whatever and I saw nothingness on eachside and a bunch of parking in the back. Then I continued to look and it seems that the new campus will extend to the church where today it looks like wasteland between the two existing building and the church. If that is correct, it has to be a huge improvement over what it is today unless it dwarfs the church. BTW, what church is that? (Message edited by emu_steve on May 14, 2007) (Message edited by emu_steve on May 14, 2007) |
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 253 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:00 pm: | |
The church is Most Holy Trinity. Most Holy Trinity Parish |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5504 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:11 pm: | |
It's going to create another superblock, and a walled-off, bermed-off one at that. It will also take out a block of 6th Street. Again, the benefits of such a poorly layed out complex do not outweigh its negative consquences. That 'visitors will see a new glass building' is not nearly enough of a benefit to outweigh how this will further murder the street grid, and create another island on the westside of downtown. If even left how the parcels currently are, they could always be responsibly developed into the neighborhood. Why they couldn't put this in a more suburban part of the city is beyond me. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1212 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:43 pm: | |
"That 'visitors will see a new glass building' is not nearly enough of a benefit to outweigh how this will further murder the street grid, and create another island on the westside of downtown. " I heard the same argument against building a new hockey arena in Foxtown...it just a matter of balancing interests...and maintaining the street grid takes a back seat to economic development in my mind, and apparently in the city's mind as well... It's a simple matter of realizing that it's NOT a choice between the FBI building and more pedestrian-friendly building...rather, it's a choice between the FBI building and cement surface lot...nothing else was or is going to be built there in the foreseeable future |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 887 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:51 pm: | |
It's a simple matter of realizing that this is the false choice fallacy. It's called "begging the question". You present something as though it has been settled, even though it is the thing being debated. There is a guide to rhetorical fallacies at http://www.galilean-library.or g/int16.html. Also, if you are more interested in reading about logic, rhetoric and argumentative fallacies, there are plenty of books at your local library. If you're not old enough to get a card, ask an adult for help. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5505 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:58 pm: | |
That is, indeed, a false choice. There is no way you can say that there is no chance of responsible development at that site. And, 'economic development' doesn't have to mean creating superblocks, which, in fact, impedes future sustainable development, and thus, economic development in the long run. This is not a plus for Corktown or Detroit; it's a net loss. It's not even a fair trade-off when you factor in all possible pluses and minuses. What you're doing is settling for seconds, and setting the bar low, which will not be the future of Detroit. (Message edited by lmichigan on May 14, 2007) |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1213 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:58 pm: | |
DetroitNerd: If you can show me what other development plans exist for that site that would move forward if the FBI building wasn't going to be built there, then I promise I won't make you look a fool... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1214 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:02 pm: | |
LM: I didn't say there's no chance of other development occurring there...I said there were no plans for such development in the foreseeable future...there has also been no progress on the parcel in decades and there likely won't be for some time... And economic development doesn't always mean creating superblocks, but in this case, it does...the plan that's being pitched involves a superblock...there is no other plan being pitched....when faced with the choice between a new glass building w/ some green and a surface lot, I (and apparently the public officials elected to represent the people of Detroit) take the building... |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 888 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
The false choice: Something must be done now or nothing will be built there. So I don't need to show you any plans. It's OK. Thanks for promising not to make me look a fool. You're doing one hell of a bang-up job on yourself, all by your lonesome. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1216 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:10 pm: | |
"The false choice: Something must be done now or nothing will be built there. So I don't need to show you any plans. It's OK. " If I stated that nothing else will EVER be built on that site, you would be correct...as it turns out, you are not See my response to LM... I hope that clears up your error for you... |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 889 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:16 pm: | |
Then why the rush? What is the impetus to do something RIGHT NOW? I think you overlooked that. Oops. Oh well. Good luck in law school ... |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:39 pm: | |
Quote: "The church is Most Holy Trinity. Most Holy Trinity Parish" Thanks, Ramcharger. I believe I've been to that church once, a long, long time ago. BTW, Anyone here remember Father Donald Clark? Father Clark was a well known Detroit Priest who was murdered either in '94 or '95. I believe he was stationed in Detroit for about 20 years. Father Clark married me before he was assigned to a Detroit parish. I was a student at a 'mid-Michigan' university then and he was at the university student parish. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 890 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:01 pm: | |
"Father Clark married me before he was assigned to a Detroit parish." I thought marriage was an institution between a man and a woman. Or so says Gary Glenn. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1217 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:28 pm: | |
"Then why the rush? What is the impetus to do something RIGHT NOW?" Because nothing has been done on that site in decades...this is a blessing that the Federal government wants to not only develop the site, bit build a new glass building and add some grass and trees...and I think many of you will be surprised and the final product will be very nice and add a pleasant feel to that corner sure, there's always the CHANCE that something better could come along...but history tells us that it will be a while before something does |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5506 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:41 pm: | |
Why are you still fighting for it? You've yet to explain how the benefits of such a complex outweigh the losses. And, you can stop with the "new GLASS building and grass and trees", already, as if it even matters what this structure looks like. Most of us aren't objecting to the 'tower' but the layout. Corktowners and Detroiters will never get to see this walled-off/fenced-off grass complex. The huge green space is used as a security precaution, not for aesthetic purposes, anyway. This is not a long-term improvement for that area. |
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 303 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:24 pm: | |
barf...no more 6th street. bad precedent. no more street closures!!! |
Drm Member Username: Drm
Post Number: 1104 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:48 am: | |
quote:Because nothing has been done on that site in decades... That's because it was occupied until a few years ago.
quote:sure, there's always the CHANCE that something better could come along...but history tells us that it will be a while before something does One reason is the cost of demolishing the towers on the site. That cost is less significant in relation to total project costs for a $90mm government project than for a $3mm residential project. I guarantee you there is demand for houses on the site but, given the presence of the towers and that the parking lots were never going to be sold separately from the towers, it'd be hard to make the numbers work. The opposition is not necessarily to the FBI locating there, tearing down the out-of-proportion buildings and eliminating parking lots, but to the closing of Sixth Street. Walk and drive around the neighborhood and I think you'll see that closing Sixth Street is a bad idea. You'd see less opposition if the development were moved west and Sixth kept open. |