Discuss Detroit » Active Archive » FBI to build new field office « Previous Next »
FBI to build new field office - 1Queensfinest126 05-10-07  9:46 am
FBI to build new field office - 1 06-04-07  5:55 pm
  ClosedNew threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.        

Top of pageBottom of page

Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 294
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3WC quote:

"The FBI does not WANT a pedestrian friendly location for obvious reasons. "

3WC is exactly correct.

I have a page from the Wash. Post about the new ATF Hdqtrs. in D.C. (it too is in an area I'd guess maybe a mile from the Capitol but not hardly an area full of pedestrian traffic and Quiznos, etc. etc. I find that area very quirky and hard to navigate or get around in. I'm sure that is fine with the ATF. The building isn't designed to be a tourist attraction).

"Located behind by a (sic) three-story decorative security barrier..."

Interesting it is near a new Metro stop.

I guess that means it it okay for those working there to use public transit but leaves those potentially dangerous motor vehicles away from the building (there is some underground parking though).

(Message edited by emu_steve on May 12, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Dbest
Member
Username: Dbest

Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 4:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This seems like it would help the corktown area. If it helps the area why does it matter how it looks.
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5501
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 4:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How will it help Corktown?
Top of pageBottom of page

Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 317
Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 5:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think people get it.

Dbest, how about I construct a federal building behind where you live? How will that help you on a daily or weekly basis?

This thing is entirely fenced off. You think Corktown residents are going to relax on the lawn?
Top of pageBottom of page

Hans57
Member
Username: Hans57

Post Number: 120
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It could increase the feeling of security and possibly deter criminal activity. That one seems pretty obvious.
Top of pageBottom of page

Kslice
Member
Username: Kslice

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL, criminal activity. They just want to catch terrorists before they cross from canada to Detroit.

After 9/11 the FBI took all their people off Mafia and street gang work and put them on anti- terrorism.
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5502
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if it were to make the already safe neighborhood a little better, this is not enough to outweigh all of its negatives. The point is that the positives of this complex in Corktown just don't outweigh the negatives of such a walled complex.
Top of pageBottom of page

Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4308
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL... yeah I can see DetroitYes Forumers driving thru the Corktown area taking pictures of the historic homes... and then BOOM they get stopped and interrogated by FBI folks asking what they are doing taking pictures of the area...
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5503
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm surprised they didn't develop this office building under the Ambassador Bridge. lol
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1173
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

when visitors to Detroit drive down the lodge or visit Corktown, they'll see a brand new building and a bunch of grass instead of the vacant, decaying structures and surface lots that are there now...

that is how it will help corktown...by improving its image

also, I think it's safe to say that a majority of Corktown's residents welcome this improvement to the area and that only handful hold the obstructionist/anti-progressive attitude...and those people just need to realize that there are plenty of other parcels of on which to build the type of structures they feel are more "appropriate" for the area...


(Message edited by thejesus on May 14, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4310
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does one notice a bunch of grass?

More than likely visitors driving down the Lodge will notice very little at all (with the setback of the building on the 5 block campus).

And will it make for a nice addition to the Detroit skyline? Maybe from Corktown, but probably not from the waterfront.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1191
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok:

visitors to Corktown will see the grass...people driving down the lodge will probably see the building...either way, it's better than a bunch of cement and decaying structures

hope that clarifies...
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9133
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

also, I think it's safe to say that a majority of Corktown's residents welcome this improvement to the area and that only handful hold the obstructionist/anti-progressiv e attitude..



How many corktown residents do you know? How many have you spoken with in regards to this topic?

You are making the assumption that you know what is better for the people in Corktown than those that live there. The people that I know in Corktown (yep, you can dismiss them as obstructionists) are not happy with this.

Actually speaking to the people that live in proximity of this goes a long way.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1192
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You are making the assumption that you know what is better for the people in Corktown than those that live there."

sort of like how you think YOU know what's better for communities that opt out of SMART bus than the residents of those communities, eh?
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9135
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tangent notwithstanding Have you spoken to anyone in Corktown about this?

The two arguments aren't similar since you are claiming that this is good for Corktown (regardless what Corktown residents want) and I am claiming that opting out of SMART is bad for the region and saves Livonia very little money since they now run their indepent system.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1195
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think so...you've said it's a bad move for LIVONIA because it will hurt their local businesses...i.e., you know better than they do that the benefit they'll get from opting out of SMART doesn't justify the detriment...they beg to differ

I've spoken to Corktown residents in the past who were glad the FBI was going to do something with the site...I've haven't gotten anyone's opinon on these specific plans, however, the people I know are progressives, not obstructionists, and I can virtually guarantee you they see this as a good thing...

A more pedestrian friendly structure would have been nicer than these plans...however, I'm certain the people I know understand (unlike some others) that it's not a choice between these plans and a more pedestrian-friendly structure...rather, it's a choice between these plans and a cement surface lot and some ugly vacant buildings

(Message edited by thejesus on May 14, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9136
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I don't think so...you've said it's a bad move for LIVONIA because it will hurt their local businesses...i.e., you know better than they do that the benefit they'll get from opting out of SMART doesn't justify the detriment...they beg to differ



What is the benefit of opting out of SMART? Knowing that may help your claims. The total estimated from Livonia would be $400K after they spend $2.3MMon their own system.

quote:

I've spoken to Corktown residents in the past who were glad the FBI was going to do something with the site...I've haven't gotten anyone's opinon on these specific plans, however, the people I know are progressives, not obstructionists, and I can virtually guarantee you they see this as a good thing...



First of throing around the term obstructionists is just ignorant. So people are happy that something was being done but you have no imput from any residents on this plan. Certainly puts you in a place to claim "I think it's safe to say that a majority of Corktown's residents welcome this improvement to the area and that only handful hold the obstructionist/anti-progressiv e attitude.."

So you have no idea on the opinion of this development but you are certain that a majority weclcome the plan. As a budding attorney I hope that you do understand the concept of facts, not your baseless assumptions. Instead of making the assumption that you are so intellectually superior and know what is best it might make sense to actually hear what people in Corktown want.

Of course if the majority disagree with you they must be ignorant obstructionists. When all of downtown is completely suburbanized it might even be good enough for you to consider a move there.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1199
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

golly gee, JT, you're right...I could really stand to learn a thing or two from some a**hole Detroit resident on an Internet message so I'll know the stuff out professors don't teach us in ls...
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9141
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So I assume by that you have no imput from any Corktown residents about the current design.

Thanks, got it. I guess the residents of Corktown could really learn a thing or two about what is best for them from someone that lives 20-30 miles away. I guess the urban planners and others on this board could also learn a lot about what is the best use of the space by a law student.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1209
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JT:

I just saw a couple guys prepping the buildings at Howard and 6th street for Demolition...you better run down there and go chain yourself to a pipe or something...
Top of pageBottom of page

Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 886
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hahaha. I'm gonna guess that the "law student" thing is a rosy fiction. Thejesus' grasp of rhetoric is truly underwhelming. Eric C is administering a debate-class beatdown. Marvelous to behold. But, as they say about pearls before swine, a shame...
Top of pageBottom of page

Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 300
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

while this debate goes on, how about a little 'background' info:

Maybe a little 'sideground' info:

What is on each side of the proposed new campus?

Anything?

Does it blend at all? Does it look like 'visual shock'?
Top of pageBottom of page

Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 4077
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It looks like visual ass Emu...
Top of pageBottom of page

Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 301
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did the Google Earth or whatever and I saw nothingness on eachside and a bunch of parking in the back.

Then I continued to look and it seems that the new campus will extend to the church where today it looks like wasteland between the two existing building and the church.

If that is correct, it has to be a huge improvement over what it is today unless it dwarfs the church.

BTW, what church is that?

(Message edited by emu_steve on May 14, 2007)

(Message edited by emu_steve on May 14, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Ramcharger
Member
Username: Ramcharger

Post Number: 253
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The church is Most Holy Trinity.

Most Holy Trinity Parish
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5504
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's going to create another superblock, and a walled-off, bermed-off one at that. It will also take out a block of 6th Street. Again, the benefits of such a poorly layed out complex do not outweigh its negative consquences. That 'visitors will see a new glass building' is not nearly enough of a benefit to outweigh how this will further murder the street grid, and create another island on the westside of downtown. If even left how the parcels currently are, they could always be responsibly developed into the neighborhood. Why they couldn't put this in a more suburban part of the city is beyond me.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1212
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"That 'visitors will see a new glass building' is not nearly enough of a benefit to outweigh how this will further murder the street grid, and create another island on the westside of downtown. "

I heard the same argument against building a new hockey arena in Foxtown...it just a matter of balancing interests...and maintaining the street grid takes a back seat to economic development in my mind, and apparently in the city's mind as well...

It's a simple matter of realizing that it's NOT a choice between the FBI building and more pedestrian-friendly building...rather, it's a choice between the FBI building and cement surface lot...nothing else was or is going to be built there in the foreseeable future
Top of pageBottom of page

Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 887
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a simple matter of realizing that this is the false choice fallacy. It's called "begging the question". You present something as though it has been settled, even though it is the thing being debated.

There is a guide to rhetorical fallacies at http://www.galilean-library.or g/int16.html.

Also, if you are more interested in reading about logic, rhetoric and argumentative fallacies, there are plenty of books at your local library. If you're not old enough to get a card, ask an adult for help.
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5505
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is, indeed, a false choice. There is no way you can say that there is no chance of responsible development at that site. And, 'economic development' doesn't have to mean creating superblocks, which, in fact, impedes future sustainable development, and thus, economic development in the long run. This is not a plus for Corktown or Detroit; it's a net loss. It's not even a fair trade-off when you factor in all possible pluses and minuses. What you're doing is settling for seconds, and setting the bar low, which will not be the future of Detroit.

(Message edited by lmichigan on May 14, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DetroitNerd:

If you can show me what other development plans exist for that site that would move forward if the FBI building wasn't going to be built there, then I promise I won't make you look a fool...
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1214
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LM:

I didn't say there's no chance of other development occurring there...I said there were no plans for such development in the foreseeable future...there has also been no progress on the parcel in decades and there likely won't be for some time...

And economic development doesn't always mean creating superblocks, but in this case, it does...the plan that's being pitched involves a superblock...there is no other plan being pitched....when faced with the choice between a new glass building w/ some green and a surface lot, I (and apparently the public officials elected to represent the people of Detroit) take the building...
Top of pageBottom of page

Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 888
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The false choice: Something must be done now or nothing will be built there. So I don't need to show you any plans. It's OK.

Thanks for promising not to make me look a fool. You're doing one hell of a bang-up job on yourself, all by your lonesome.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1216
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The false choice: Something must be done now or nothing will be built there. So I don't need to show you any plans. It's OK. "

If I stated that nothing else will EVER be built on that site, you would be correct...as it turns out, you are not

See my response to LM...

I hope that clears up your error for you...
Top of pageBottom of page

Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 889
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Then why the rush? What is the impetus to do something RIGHT NOW? I think you overlooked that. Oops. Oh well.

Good luck in law school ...
Top of pageBottom of page

Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 302
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"The church is Most Holy Trinity.

Most Holy Trinity Parish"

Thanks, Ramcharger.

I believe I've been to that church once, a long, long time ago.

BTW, Anyone here remember Father Donald Clark? Father Clark was a well known Detroit Priest who was murdered either in '94 or '95.

I believe he was stationed in Detroit for about 20 years.

Father Clark married me before he was assigned to a Detroit parish. I was a student at a 'mid-Michigan' university then and he was at the university student parish.
Top of pageBottom of page

Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 890
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Father Clark married me before he was assigned to a Detroit parish."

I thought marriage was an institution between a man and a woman. Or so says Gary Glenn.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1217
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Then why the rush? What is the impetus to do something RIGHT NOW?"

Because nothing has been done on that site in decades...this is a blessing that the Federal government wants to not only develop the site, bit build a new glass building and add some grass and trees...and I think many of you will be surprised and the final product will be very nice and add a pleasant feel to that corner

sure, there's always the CHANCE that something better could come along...but history tells us that it will be a while before something does
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5506
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why are you still fighting for it? You've yet to explain how the benefits of such a complex outweigh the losses. And, you can stop with the "new GLASS building and grass and trees", already, as if it even matters what this structure looks like. Most of us aren't objecting to the 'tower' but the layout. Corktowners and Detroiters will never get to see this walled-off/fenced-off grass complex. The huge green space is used as a security precaution, not for aesthetic purposes, anyway. This is not a long-term improvement for that area.
Top of pageBottom of page

Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 303
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

barf...no more 6th street. bad precedent. no more street closures!!!
Top of pageBottom of page

Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 1104
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Because nothing has been done on that site in decades...

That's because it was occupied until a few years ago.

quote:

sure, there's always the CHANCE that something better could come along...but history tells us that it will be a while before something does

One reason is the cost of demolishing the towers on the site. That cost is less significant in relation to total project costs for a $90mm government project than for a $3mm residential project. I guarantee you there is demand for houses on the site but, given the presence of the towers and that the parking lots were never going to be sold separately from the towers, it'd be hard to make the numbers work.

The opposition is not necessarily to the FBI locating there, tearing down the out-of-proportion buildings and eliminating parking lots, but to the closing of Sixth Street. Walk and drive around the neighborhood and I think you'll see that closing Sixth Street is a bad idea. You'd see less opposition if the development were moved west and Sixth kept open.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Username: Posting Information:
Only registered users may post messages here. To participate click JOIN THE DISCUSSION at the left to obtain a free account.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: