Discuss Detroit » Active Archive » Construction or Demolition on the C.C. Bar « Previous Next »
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Soulhawk
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Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I snapped this pic of a small backhoe whacking away at the C.C. Bar on Cass just north of Elizabeth. In the picture you can see the sign that reads "Do Not Demolish Under Court Order." So, is this renovation or is the building on it's way out?

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Rjlj
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Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Say good bye.
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Toolbox
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The north and east walls are still standing. I vote renovation.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's nothing in that location today except Ilitch's parking lots, so the owner must have lost the court battle.
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Kenp
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A lot of good times at that bar, that sucks
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Leland_palmer
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello new Arena.
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it was a demolition, wouldn't it be gone by now? It would take maybe two hours to knock down that building and remove the debris.
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Supersport
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed. You wouldn't carefully knock down 2 of 4 walls if it was simply demolition work. If they are saving a few of the walls, there is a reason, like getting grandfathered in on the building codes, or perhaps for some sort of historic credits the building may be able to get.
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Detourdetroit
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

is it the north and east, or the south and west? Is the facade gone or the backside gone?
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Facade is gone... the two sides that faced Cass and Columbia were removed.
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Detourdetroit
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thx...there goes the neighborhood.
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Motorcitydave
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately, The Vermont Hotel (just a block away) is getting close to demo day too... they have been tearing out the windows, etc.

It would have been nice if they could have moved these couple old building and placed them a block down ON Park Ave to help add to the growing bar district being rehabed there.
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Rugbyman
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I walked past there last Saturday before the Tigers game and noticed that the inside had been very carefully demo'ed. Completely gutted. Why gut something you're just going to haul away later? Smells like 'renovation' to me.
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Crew
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rugbyman, to remove the asbestos would be one reason.
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It would have been nice if they could have moved these couple old building and placed them a block down ON Park Ave to help add to the growing bar district being rehabed there."

I think it would be nice if the C.C. Bar is renovated and then Mr. Ilitch would have to build his new hockey arena AROUND it.
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Supersport
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They were already rebuilding one of the walls as I drove by today. Would have taken a picture, had I had my camera with me. So it appears the building is being saved, and as I mentioned, the saving of two walls obviously is for either historic credit reasons or for code.
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Bobj
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Strange stuff that happens and methods to work around legal rules and such
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Lukabottle
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Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two original walls remain. They have built 2 new walls.
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Fury13
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I talked to the owner the other day, on the construction site. He confirmed that the building is being rehabbed and will be a bar.

From where I stood, it was evident that the new entrance will face the intersection of Cass and Columbia on a diagonal. The entire concrete floor was being broken up in preparation for a new one.

The owner's name is "Mark" and he seems confident that the location will be great for business.

I concur.
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"The owner's name is "Mark" and he seems confident that the location will be great for business.

I concur."

Is there a caveat that a new hockey arena is built around it?

Lest I'm missing something, that location without a hockey arena is like a single palm tree in a Nevada desert.

Might "Mark" and "Mike" (Ilitch) have an agreement that his (Mark's) bar can co-exist with his (Mike's) arena.

Can I throw out a curve ball here?

Can the two walls be move to Park? "Mark" can say he saved a 'historic' structure and "Mike" can have unfettered access to Columbia and Cass.

Mike can throw in a suite or two. ;-)
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Eric
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As Lukeabottle and others have said above they've started rebuilding the other walls it's so probably not being moved


The location should do well on game days with much area around it being used for parking. But I wonder how well it'll do on non game with it's off the beat path location.
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Restoretheroar
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

possible relocation of the downtown Post
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Michigansheik
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

will the post pay rent at this location? isn't that the reason they got the boot from comerica?
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Drm
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

isn't that the reason they got the boot from comerica?

That was Fifth Avenue.
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Leland_palmer
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was in the area today and I grabbed some photos of the construction along with a pre-demolition view.

http://fadeddetroit.blogspot.c om/2007/05/illitch-blocker.htm l
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent, Leland.

Those of us who were expecting or hoping for an announcement say within a few weeks of the end of the Wings season can't be happy.

I'd hoped that Ilitch would have had all of the land he needs by now.

Certainly doesn't look that way now.
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Leland_palmer
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure what to make of it. Are they trying to make a go of it in anticipation of business from the new arena? I don't know if it is worth the risk but I was wondering if they are just improving the lot, using cheap construction to jack up the price in advance of any eminent domain or direct buyout.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm interested to see if the new eminent domain laws get tested here...

The constitutional amendment approved in November prevents the city from condemning privately owned land and transferring it to another private party...

BUT...

Could the city condemn the property, maintain ownership in it but allow a private developer to build on it?

Or could they acquire it, hang onto it for a period of time, transfer ownership to a private developer, then just pay damages out of their pocket to the current owner after they get sued, thus allowing development of the property to proceed?(assuming the suing party favors damages over specific performance or injunctive relief)

(Message edited by thejesus on May 28, 2007)
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Thejesus
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EMU Steve:

You still may get your announcement...if the current owner already believes that Ilitch plans to build an arena there, then Ilitch could benefit by announcing his intention to the public in order to get public support for his venture and the courts on his side, which could help persuade the current land owner to sell at a lower price than they would otherwise
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is nothing more than a repeat of what has happened in the past. I can think of 2 occurrences that this is emulating...

1) When CAY was Eminent Domain'ing land for the new Chrysler Plant on E. Jefferson, one company loaded a warehouse full of equipment, which the city was forced to buy (building & equipment). Total cost to the taxpayers: $42 million. And then the businessmen who took advantage of the city were later able to buy back the equipment (without the building) for pennies on the dollar.

2) When Mike Ilitch was first planning on building the new ballpark west of Woodward, the owner of the Film Building (on Montcalm with the orange panels) decided that this was a perfect time to start renovating the building. He put in all new windows in the multistory building, and perhaps did other work. As soon as the decision was announced that the ballpark would be located east of Woodward, all construction on the Film Building ceased, and nothing has been done since.

Now do you understand what is happening? This owner wants to fleece Ilitch with... look at all the expense I went to so that this building can be saved... so if you want to buy it for an arena... it will really cost you an arm and a leg! And if you build around me, then I still win because I have a cash cow next door.

Knowing Ilitch, if he doesn't buy it, and builds his arena around it, he will make sure no arena entrances/exits are anywhere near this building, and maybe even build a huge parking structure bridging over Cass, so that this building gets very little visible notice.

If you play against the big boys, the little boys usually end up getting burned.
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3rdworldcity
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not even a remote chance any real estate in there is going to be taken by eminent domain. A municipality must prove it has a "public use" for any land it attempts to condemn. The case law and constitution prevent deeming "economic development" or any other screwy scheme from being a "public use" and used in cases such as this.

And, even if it did, the Constitution requires the payment of 125% of fair market value and the most recent comp is the DK sale at $234 sq ft. That's far more than the CC owner could ever make operating a bar, and I don't think it's going to be successful anyway.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3rd World:

You seem knowledgeable on this subject...Suppose Ilitch doesn't need that plot to fit the new arena into the area, but still wants control of it for some other related purpose, like parking...or simply wants the structure removed...

could the city meet the "public use" requirement by condemning it, retaining ownership and building a city-owned "public parking" structure? Or could they turn it into a mini park a la GCP for the purpose of improving the aesthetics of the area near one of the city's new entertainment attractions?
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3rdworldcity
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Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I should have said "public purpose" (the legal term, rather than "public use", but it's pretty much a distinction w/o a difference.)

Could the City condemn and put in a publicly owned parking structure? It could try. But I don't think it would be successful for many reasons. The City would have to justify paying the cost of the land, 24% higher than the Dennis K sale if that's accurate, and the cost of the garage. And, the City would have to buy a lot of additional land in order to construct a garage. The numbers would never work under any circumstances and that idea wouldn't fly.

As far as buying the land and turning it into a park, that's never going to work as a practical matter either. Does the City need a park there? The City is broke so where is it going to get several millions bucks to buy the land, convert it to a park, and maintain it. The City would have to disclose Ilitch paid the money for the park, as I assume that's what would happen, and that would kill the deal quickly. Courts tend to go behind the ostensible reasons for actions to the substance of the deal. It would all boil down to whether the park is a public purpose and in my opinion not even a fixed Court would have the cajones to hold that such a scheme was for a public purpose under the circumstances.

Besides, the owner would have the matter tied up in Court for so long the timing alone would kill any such attempts.
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Fury13
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Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I sure am looking forward to having a drink in the rebuilt C.C. Bar (or whatever the owner will call it). In fact, I think my first drink in that building will be a toast to Mike Ilitch and his new hockey arena... wherever it may eventually be.
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Gistok
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Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ya know.... it suddenly dawned on me why the "DO NOT DEMOLISH UNDER COURT ORDER" sign was on the CC Bar...

Maybe Ilitch offered to buy their building (which is very likely) and the owners didn't want to sell, or sell at a truly exhorbitant price.

Then maybe the CC owners were worried that Ilitch would get the city to demo the building as a building that was in imminent danger of collapsing (as was done with the Madison-Lenox). Maybe the owners feared that scenario, and got the court order as a safeguard, until they started their renovation work.
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Leland_palmer
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Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember that, the notice went up right after the building was torn down next-door. Those two buildings along with the Hotel Vermont were on the targeted buildings list for the Superbowl which is what prompted me to grab some photos before it was too late.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wondered if the court order was prompted by the owner's fear that CC would get "accidentally" knocked down with the construction going on next door...
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3rdworldcity
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't seen any ongoing work there for several days.
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Gistok
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm, since we're in speculation mode on this thread... and 3WC mentioned "I haven't seen any ongoing work there for several days."....

Then....

A) The weather's been the problem, although it has only rained a little in that time, so this is unlikely.

B) Ilitch put a big offer on the table for the owner...

C) City is giving them a hard time with permits...
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Probably C. That would be typical.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Probably C. That would be typical."

and wise...if the owner of CC bar is the sole hurdle in the development of a new arena, the city needs to hit this guy with whatever they can
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"... the city needs to hit this guy with whatever they can"

Right, sure. To hell with individual property rights, I guess.
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Gistok
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to agree with Thejesus on this one... that guy is going to get rich by selling his site to the Ilitch's... as 3WC said "making more money than he could ever make by running a bar there".

If Ilitch has to move his arena elsewhere, then this guy is going to have a bar in the middle of a sea of parking lots. Mark my words, if Ilitch decides on another site (not nearby), then this guy's construction work will stop dead in its' tracks.

I am all for personal property rights... but it becomes rather difficult to feel sorry someone who is playing a real estate version of the new TV game "DEAL or NO DEAL"... because he knows he has the $1 million dollar suitcase (and much more).

(Message edited by Gistok on May 31, 2007)
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Thejesus
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Right, sure. To hell with individual property rights, I guess."

No, not to hell with them...it's just a matter of balancing interests...and the city must have a greater interest in having a new sports arena built that will be a boon to its entertainment district than in the property rights of a single owner of a tiny parcel of land...

and if they hit him hard but stay within the law, then theoretically, property rights are unaffected
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Fury13
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, come on. It's not like Ilitch can't build around the CC Bar property and still have enough room for his arena. The overall site just wouldn't be "nice and neat" without that piece, that's all.

You do realize that both the Elwood Bar and the Gem Theater/Century Club buildings did NOT need to be moved to make way for Comerica Park, don't you?

If they did, why are there now vacant lots in the former locations of the Gem and Elwood (surface parking)? No new buildings were put up on those sites, so why were the Gem and Elwood moved? Well, we can only make an educated guess, but I would say that Ilitch wanted clean sight lines to his stadium with unbroken expanses of parking out front, just like in suburban developments. Think strip mall. (That's how they do it in Troy or Shelby Township.)

The fact is that the Elwood and the Gem didn't have to go. Your Mr. Ilitch just wanted it "nice and neat," and didn't want the (gasp) discomfort of looking at two Chuck Forbes-owned properties in close proximity to his new ballpark. Ilitch wanted total control of the area.

My contention is that the CC Bar doesn't have to go, either. A little discomfort -- and lack of total control -- might be good for Mr. Ilitch in that situation, I think.

The man has no regard for the integrity of historic buildings (UA, Fine Arts, Blenheim, Detroit Life, etc., etc.) and he has no clue as to how urban-style developments should be built.

It would be satisfying, for once, to see him NOT get what he wants.

As for the new gee-whiz Olympia replica, hell, build it at Charlevoix and St. Jean. Plenty of cheap, vacant land there, and traffic's no problem.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

many of the rest of us want it "nice and neat" too...and apparently, so does the city...you make it seem like it's Ilitch v. everyone else, when in fact both sides of the debate are strong in numbers...it's just that our side has been winning as of late...
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3rdworldcity
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It would be satisfying, for once, to see him NOT get what he wants."

Jealousy rears its ugly head.
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Leland_palmer
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just for the sake of argument when was the last time that bar was actually opened for business?
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Fury13
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Jealousy rears its ugly head."

Nope, not at all. I give Ilitch his props when it comes to his business acumen and his success in building a pizza and entertainment empire.

However, his track record as a developer is lousy and his plans are wrongheaded. THAT'S what I have a problem with.
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Gistok
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury13,

I can totally sympathize with your comment "That it would be nice to see him NOT get what he wants." A lot of folks on this forum feel the same "Schadenfreude" (German - for showing glee over other peoples misfortunes).

But we have to look at the bigger picture. Unfortunately Mr. Ilitch is not in some kind of stand alone vacuum. What he does affects MANY other businesses. Just look back to the Hockey players strike a few years ago. It really hurt a lot of downtown restaurants, some to the point of nearly going under.

So it is important to a lot of other business owners besides Mr. Ilitch, as to where he puts his new arena. If he puts it too far from a People Mover station, or puts it out in an area away from downtown, then guess what... once folks get into their cars after a game, they are more likely than not to just drive home (mostly out in the burbs).

And downtown restaurants, bars and nightclubs will be the losers, not Mr. Ilitch. Hell for him an arena away from downtown would likely mean that the folks attending a hockey game would primarily use his parking spaces, and would likely spend more on food at a game than if they were planning on going to a nearby bar or restaurant after a game.

If he does build his arena in this west Foxtown area, then it's the closest that the arena could get to a People Mover station, and other parking/restaurant/bar venues would benefit.

(Message edited by Gistok on June 01, 2007)
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, nice comment.

Lot of folks here who are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face.

I've said it before, if Ilitch loses, downtown Detroit loses.

They are not independent of each other.

Folks need to realize the interdependenceness of their relationship and as Gistok indicates, downtown Detroit needs Ilitch more then Ilitch needs downtown Detroit for his hockey team.
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3rdworldcity
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok: I think a W. Foxtown site would sure benefit Ilitch's restaurants as well as those close by.

I don't think the lack of access to the People Mover would result in an increase in food consumption in the arena. Hockey tickets are more expensive by far than b/ball tickets and I saw a study once that showed that a very large percentage of hockey tickets are held by corporations who use them to wine and dine customers; they usually take them to dinner, ride a restaurant-owned shuttle to the game, go back to the restaurants after the game for drinks, etc. A hockey arena will do far more for restaurants in the area than Comerica Park, which is family oriented, where part of the fun is eating hot dogs in the park.
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Gistok
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Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 4:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks 3WC, since I'm not a Hockey fan, I am totally ignorant of the sophisticated palettes of the Hockey hoi poloi! :-)
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Billk
Member
Username: Billk

Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps construction stopped on the C C Bar because they are in talks with Mr. Ilitch.
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Billk
Member
Username: Billk

Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Today the door and window openings were boarded up with plywood and the chain link fence taken down. Another one bites the dust...
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Billk
Member
Username: Billk

Post Number: 37
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, it looks like I lied. Today there was a work crew there continuing construction.

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