 
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 393
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 12:38 am: |    |
I was reading on the internet some history on the SEMTA(SMART) bus system in Metro Detroit.
I was wondering if any of you guys remember the system before the cuts of the 1980's? According to the articles the system use to have tons more routes, and ontop of that, almost every suburb in Metro Detroit had direct Park and Ride Express bus service to downtown Detroit.
I think the biggest cut I noticed was how all these express routes where taken out of service in the 80's cuts, except for the downriver and Livonia/Farmington service.
Its a shame those routes were cut. Look how many there use to be. There was even express service from Port Huron and Ann Arbor to downtown Detroit.
In addition to the routes below that were taken out of service, approx 30 other local routes where cut.
PARK AND RIDE ROUTES TAKEN OUT OF SERVICE IN 1980's.
800 Ann Arbor P&R
801 Troy P&R
802 Rochester P&R
806 Macomb P&R
808 Oak Park P&R
809 Michigan Ave. P&R
815 Western Wayne P&R
840 Ryan-Dequindre P&R
842 Rochester P&R
845 Rochester-Troy P&R
850 Birmingham P&R
860 Clinton Twp. P&R
865 Mt. Clemens P&R
875 Van Dyke P&R
990 Port Huron |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 1:46 am: | |
Wonder why? The few P&Rs today from SMART don't have many passengers for some of their runs. I've seen some myself that appeared empty or close to it.
I reckon as a socialist, you're in favor of having more unnecessary bus drivers working out there. Full employment for bus drivers! |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 392
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 2:56 am: | |
Livernoisyard -
I think a lot of folks on these boards are still stuck in the 80's - they fail to realize that the job locations and commuting patterns in Detroit and it's suburbs have changed significantly over the years and that SEMTA/SMART changed their services accordingly. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 394
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 8:20 am: | |
No, its just a matter of having access to downtown from all points of the region. Just think how great these routes would be used today with increasing employment, new attractions downtown, etc.
Infact SMART and DDOT are trying to run P&R service during big events now.
Livernoisyard from all that I have read on the subject, the P&R buses from Livonia and Farmington had very good ridership. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 9:37 am: | |
"Livernoisyard from all that I have read on the subject, the P&R buses from Livonia and Farmington had very good ridership."
Ridership from where? From the P&R or from further in along a route? And what constitutes "good ridership?" |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 393
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 9:59 am: | |
Since you didn't provide a link to the information you are basing your assumptions on, I'll have to respond with a generalization.
As fewer P&R customers had need to go to downtown Detroit for the full day, ridership dwindled and it did not make sense to run empty express busses past real customers waiting at the curb for a local SEMTA/SMART bus. The same P&R lots in my suburb that were utilized during the 80's are still in use and these days they contain about the same number of cars on a daily basis (which is to say "not many") - the only big difference is that the riders do not get express service.
It's kind of hard for me to get all worked up and nostalgic for the "good old days" of P&R, since that appears to be something that would exist in the minds of only the few Metro Detroiters who actually used that service and with those mass transit advocates who automatically think that the loss of any kind of transit service is a "shame". |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 395
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:13 am: | |
Well it would have to be looked into. These services where canceled at around the same time that 30 local bus routes where cut also. It has to do more with funding.
Could the demise of P&R be one of the reasons that Downtown Detroit has problems with business and parking(loss of access to downtown and the worry of parking).
Anyway it was just interesting to see the cuts. There is talk of commuter rail to Ann Arbor. Yet till the 80's, there was an express SMART bus that did that very route. |
Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 539
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:22 am: | |
quote:Could the demise of P&R be one of the reasons that Downtown Detroit has problems with business and parking(loss of access to downtown and the worry of parking).
No. Probably the opposite.
Detroit is a lot different(better) now than it was in the 80's.
And I believe you owe Livonia an apology for sticking it out an additional 30 years. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 508
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:45 am: | |
I would have to disagree that Detroit is better now than in the 1980's. Different? Yes?
Better? What is your criteria?
THe City is down some 400,000 residents since 1980. This loss in population has had a negative impact on the cost of doing business and the availablility of a large cross section of retail and services in the neighborhoods.
The 90's also saw a cut-back in SMART service. THis included my line (360 Warren Ave). I was fortunate enough to have a SMART bus some within 300 feet of my house that would take me directly to my job in Downtown Detroit. Because of a geographic anaomaly SMART both picks up and drops off in my neighborhood.
This bus was replaced by a bus that now takes nearly an hour to get downtown (due to need to transfer). I can typically get downtown in 15 minutes by car.
Ann Arbor and Port Huron used to fall under the SEMTA umbrella. These were spun-off when SEMTA became SMART into individual services. It is very difficult to coordinate multi-jurisdictional service, and I would suspect ridership for those routes to be marginal as Ann Arbor was a podunk little town back then, and Port Huron is dammed far away. Both work against ridership.
You guys make is sound like there is no daily park and ride service left.
When was the last time any of you took the bus? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:56 am: | |
I ride the bus somewhat instead of driving, especially if the walk isn't over a mile.
One observation: Few, if any, "suits" ride DDOT or SMART buses. |
Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 540
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 11:11 am: | |
quote:Better? What is your criteria?
Better in the sense that there are more and more people that WANT to invest, visit and live in Detroit.
In my suburban world, there was no reason to go to Detroit in the 80's, (other than sporting events).
Suburanites were "taught" to avoid Detroit.
I have not rode the bus but maybe a dozen times, all for special events throughout our region.
My occupation requires driving.
I have tried, unsuccessfully to find a route that would work for my college son's commutes, but they did not and do not exist. If we drive halfway to where we need to go, we could do it, but what is the point then? No savings, still need a car or taxi.
(Message edited by thnk2mch on December 09, 2006) |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 509
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 12:30 pm: | |
19080's brought a lot of investment to Detroit, from the Riverfront Towers, Ren Cen Phase 2, Millender Center, 150 W Jefferson, New Center One, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo expansion, People Mover, dozens of neighborhood shopping centers.
Suburbanites are still being taught to avoid Detroit, probably more so than ever before. SUburbanites in the 1980's still had more reasons to come into the city (see family, shop, medical center, no such thing as competition for trade shows from Novi) than they do now. |
Taj920
Member
Username: Taj920
Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 12:59 pm: | |
Blame voice mail and PCs. Don't mean to sound sexist, but downtown businessess do not employ as many clerical professionals/secretaries as they once did. These workers tended to use the bus more because parking was (and still is) so unaffordable. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 1:15 pm: | |
As an engineer and technical editor/writer, my current work is done for a DC research foundation. So, I telecommute now just as when working last year for the Motorola spin-off, now HQed in Austin--Freescale Semiconductor.
Telecommuters can live or work just about anywhere, including the Pacific Rim or Eastern Europe--and that's where many former US engineering jobs have relocated to all throughout this decade.
Every year, the percentage of telecommuters among the white-collar workforce increases. These workers have a higher tendency to live in the burbs, and they do not need to commute as much, or at all.
Also "flex-time" work schedules make P&R terminals less useful because the P&Rs usually only are functional for very limited times of the workdays. Flex-timers have vastly differing working times which don't always mesh with P&Rs well. Myself, I generally work late at night, especially with coordinating my work with the layout editor/graphic artist who's an American living in England. However, she's flex-timing, herself, though.
(Message edited by livernoisyard on December 09, 2006) |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 282
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 5:03 pm: | |
There is strong evidence that raising taxes for SMART will only worsen the problem of the shutting down of public bus routes without more direct industry and state supports.
Please provide any evidence at all that raising taxes will fix SMART. I'm sure none of you can or will even try.
Because you all know that you can't as of the date of this post on December 12, 2006.
Maybe this Christmas, Santa will get his elves to make lots of new buses for SMART and DDOT and send them to Michigan. And then bus service will return to Livonia and Detroit? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5278
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 4:33 pm: | |
That would be a nice Christmas gift for you. Bring the Smart buses back to Facist Livonia. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 290
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 8:19 am: | |
The Livonia city council members want to connect Canton and Plymouth. So, when Santa brings the buses we will have the •••••••••• express. Or, maybe we will get moral ethical mass transit leadership in Lansing instead? Seriously, this is what I really want. Yes, mass transit can and does and will work in Michigan but we need people who can bring it to us at a price that tha taxpayers and the passengers can both afford first. Or, it will cost our state even more jobs just like the Livonia opt out did according to a letter I got from SMART and a post on this DY forum. Yes, I do believe SMART did lose jobs but these jobs can come back if we can get more funding for SMART which includes filling the fare boxes up.
It was a combination of high costs, the lack of and/or the rejection of industry supports, the forced use of a single tax mechanism shifted on the county level and the end of state revenue sharing of the state fuel tax from Lansing that primarily caused the Livonia opt out.
I'm claiming the loss of state revenue sharing as discrimination and there are facts that prove this to be valid, if presented in a way that the public will understand and cast their votes accordingly. The fuel tax is indeed a very good tax mechanism for bus service and it is indeed best we fight to keep this tax.
Our present leaders want to replace the fuel tax with a hamburger tax. Danny, we need to vote these people out of office or get them to improve mass transit first. |
Miss_cleo
Member
Username: Miss_cleo
Post Number: 375
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 8:35 am: | |
Suburanites were "taught" to avoid Detroit.
yes, they were *taught* by the muggings, car-jackings and pan-handlers. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 236
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 11:47 am: | |
I have never been to Michigan or Detroit but I do tire of reading your constant negative posts of Detroit and I am not even from there. You do not live there anymore, give up the Detroit bashing and get on with your new life in your new place. Reading your constant Detroit bashing makes me lose credibility in your posts. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 1897
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:07 pm: | |
Multiply cleo by a factor of thousands and ye shall know why thousands left Detroit--many w/o turning back to look. Others speak their minds.
A clue for one who has never been to Michigan, especially Detroit: Many square miles of Detroit resemble the ruins of Beirut during the civil war in Lebanon. However, Beirut has been rapidly rebuilding, whereas Detroit isn't. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 238
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:16 pm: | |
All American cities went through flight from the city. Including my city, Chicago. I don't think the blame rests on fear of crime, only partly.
But I am impressed you didn't bash public transit in your post.
These negative Detroit posts are like a broken record. I get the point. There is no need to post the same thing hundreds of times over and over and over. |
Miss_cleo
Member
Username: Miss_cleo
Post Number: 376
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 2:49 pm: | |
why not? You all bash sprawl and the burbs and blame that for your woes.(not that I like sprawl and burbs, I dont) Maybe its plain and simple, Detroit is a ruin of a city with not much to offer families. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:03 pm: | |
Rapid-transiting Detroit is like lip-sticking a pig. It'll accomplish nothing except giving rapid transit a bad role model. |