  Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 |
I always loved this article...hope you enjoy it as well. -1924- "You are a magnificent structure! You are beautiful and imposing in appearance, and you are the last word in practical hotel construction, I am told." This was the first sentence I shot at this great building. "Yes, I admit it, right off the handle - without undue modesty. I am the tallest building in Detroit. I understand that you have had an office building here who, for a long time, has claimed the distinction of being the largest office building in the world. Well, that may be so, but I can look down upon that building from my height and it looks like a toy to me." I could see that this beautiful, sleek castle thought well of itself, and I didn't blame the fellow one bit. But my smiling assent to his egotism was interrupted by a few valuable statistics that spluttered from the rascal like the explosion of an automobile or airplane overhead: "I am faced with Indiana limestone for six solid stories. I have a colonnade of columns 49 feet high fronting on Michigan Avenue that run up for four floors. From the seventh floor I am faced with gray brick, while on my top I have a sloping copper roof that will beautify with age. There is to be no paint on that roof. It will weather to its own color, giving a touch of age to my youthful appearance. You see I have to have a touch of age somewhere, even if it is on top of my head, like some men I know well in this city." I could see that the big fellow had a sense of humor, and that made me like him all the more as he continued his talk about being the tallest building in Detroit. "I have twelve hundred bedrooms, each with a shower or bath, all on the upper 23 stories." "Being such a huge structure you must have pretty deep foundations," I said to the friendly building, eager to know, what I believe all Detroit folks will want to know - just how deep the foundations have to go in a skyscraper of this type. "Yes, I have a deep foundation. Back in 1923, on July 31, they sank a well 126 feet below the surface to test out how deep my foundations would have to go. They learned that I would have to have 77 wells running down to hardpan, which is 120 feet below the surface of the street." "Just what do you mean by wells?" I asked. "I mean just what you mean by wells; just like the wells you remember as a boy at home; some of them five feet to six feet and a half wide - only mine are 120 feet deep. They had to dig these 77 wells. Four steam shovels and 25 trucks started August 13, 1923, and worked until December 4 on my foundation. Seven thousand cubic yards of concrete and 500 tons of reinforcing steel were used in my foundation alone, while in my super-structure a total of 8,700 tons of steel was used and a total of more than 250,000 rivets. "I have 30 stories all told, and am 375 feet above the earth, which makes me the tallest hotel building in the world." "You are impressive from the standpoint of your imposing appearance, and also in the mass of materials and the depth of your foundations. Do you have any particular artistic touch about you that gives you claim to distinction?" "Yes. You will note that on my Michigan Avenue side I have four impressive stone statues. They represent: General 'Mad Anthony' Wayne, famous in all history and the hero of the British and Indian wars; Antoine De La Mothe Cadillac, founder of the city of Detroit and for whom it was first named 'the Village of Cadillac'; Pontiac, the Indian chief, leader of the famous Pontiac conspiracy, and Navarre, a French nobleman and Cadillac's lieutenant and friend. That gives me an artistic and a historical appearance. I have something besides bulk and beauty. I have something besides the reputation of starting off as the tallest hotel building in the world and the tallest building in Detroit - I have an art, and a historical significance, name and all, as you see." "Do you have any outstanding features of equipment in which people who read THE DETROIT TIMES would be interested?" I asked. "We have a barber shop for women. I guess that's up to date enough. In fact, we have given over to women a larger space and a more commodious room than we have to the men. It is to be a real beauty parlor. I'll show it to you." I went over to this beauty parlor, and it is certainly to be the last word in luxury, equipment and beauty. Right next door to it is to be a barber shop for children. "Then there is my Italian garden, right in the heart of the hotel. It will have a system of lighting that will give the appearance of daylight for 24 hours. I'll wager you that I can take a blindfolded man into that Italian garden when it is ready and he will not know whether it is night or day from the light in that room. Beautiful palms, with an outdoor effect, will predominate." "What other special features have you?" "The large ballroom will be the finest thing in America. We will seat 1,000 diners and can put in 1,200 chairs for public gatherings. It is 24 feet high and will have a beautiful ceiling. There is to be a cafe for men exclusively, and a grill. In addition to the large ballroom there will be the crystal ballroom, so called because of its furnishings and the lighting effect, and it will seat 600. "All public rooms in my hotel will be refrigerated. We have a large refrigerating plant that cost $60,000, and that will be used in hot weather to keep the temperature of the public assembly rooms at 72 to 75 degrees, which is the temperature that scientists agree is the most healthful for human beings." "Anything else?" "It is interesting to know that in our lobby we have without a doubt the largest amount of Italian marble of any public building in America. The ceiling of this same lobby is being decorated with gold leaf. More than 300,000 sheets of gold leaf will be used in the hotel. We use that in making the coat of arms of the famous Count Cadillac. It is interesting to know that all of this gold leaf has to be hammered out by hand. No machine has ever been invented to do this delicate work satisfactorily." "You seem to have everything. You have three men who are back of you, who have an ideal, that of making Washington Boulevard the Fifth Avenue of Detroit and who have youth back of them and time to do it in; you have a solid foundation that goes down 120 feet, a foundation that is financial as well as structural; you have the prestige of being not only the tallest building in Detroit, but the tallest hotel in the world; you have the distinction of having the most powerful wireless in the world; you have beauty, bulk, power, and you have a touch of the artistic in those four statues that gives you a cultural atmosphere; you have the last word in hotel equipment -----" I went on, summing up the results of my interview. But the brilliant fellow interrupted me. "Yes, and I have Roy Carruthers as my president. Everybody knows him. If they didn't know him in San Francisco when he was manager of the Palace and Fairmont hotels and the famous Cliff House restaurant, then they knew him as the manager of the Waldorf-Astoria in New York, the Bellvue-Stratford in Philadelphia or the New Williard in Washington. Everybody knows Mr. Carruthers, and it is no small contribution that I make to Detroit when he comes here to live and have his offices. It was he who made the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York famous shortly after its opening." "Who planned your magnificent structure?" I asked the alert fellow as I finished my interview. "Louis Kamper, a man of whom Detroit should be proud, for he made me not only practical but beautiful to look upon; a monument to himself, and a show-place for the city." "When will you be open for the public?" "About Dec. 1, I hope. A vast army of workingmen are toiling away night and day, giving the finishing touches to wiring, decorating, furnishing, and the opening hour is not to far distant." As I walked away from that great monument, and looked upon the smaller monument of one of Detroit's founders at it's feet, I had a thrill of pride for Detroit, for the Book brothers, and for all who have had anything to do with that great mountain erected by the hands of man. William L. Stidger, published on 11/23/1924 in the Detroit Times Newspaper | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4816 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hey, do you happen to have a link to this one? This is very interesting, which a lot of good (and little known) facts. Thanks. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 |
Sorry, the only place you're likely to see this online is right here. I dug this text up many years ago when I was researching the hotel. It was a great source of info, and fun to read. Glad you enjoyed it! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1129 Registered: 12-2005 |
All the more reason to preserve it. Quick, everyone copy that post to disk! Thanks, Pagesix1536! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4819 Registered: 10-2003 |
You mean you typed this whole thing up from an actual document, yourself? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1130 Registered: 12-2005 |
Here's a copy: http://team-miller.org/tmc/cad illac_speaks.htm | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 |
lol...and I was going to pull that tonight. I guess you all were more likely to find the "other" place it was online than I thought. Heh, yeah you found my site. It's been hidden for a long time, but not unavailable. Since the URL was posted, I'll leave it there for now. There's a decent amount of info, but of course some of it is dated from 1999-2001 timeframe, so take that into consideration. Not sure if Dave Khorman is still out there somewhere, but if you are, hey dood! We had some good times photographing some of these buildings. (Message edited by pagesix1536 on December 05, 2006) | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 781 Registered: 11-2003 |
Pagesix1536 (or Dave Khorman, if you are reading this thread), are there any other floor plans you could scan in from the 1924 booklet? Specifically, anything from the basements, the 6th floor (service floor), or anything from the 27th floor up. Khorman included floor plans for everything else in his book, but I've always been curious if the 1924 booklet has others. I'd love to be able to compare the current condo floor plans with the original layout. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 53 Registered: 07-2006 |
Pagesix, I understand that the information is a bit outdated, but your website contains information that cannot be found elsewhere online. For that reason, I would ask that you keep the information available to those of us who have an interest in the hotel, in some form or the other. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1132 Registered: 12-2005 |
It's the anthropomorphism that caught my attention. It's hard to find that style of writing anymore. Bravo!  | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 |
The 1924 promotional book does not have floorplans for the basement or the 5 1/2? floor (which I must say IS quite an odd floor. I remember it well, mostly having to duck to go through some doorways). Only thing I can figure is that they didn't publish it in that book because it's not anything the public needed to know about. I may have possibly a floor plan above the 27th floor, but I believe it only shows the radio station layout. There's nothing that shows the service levels with the elevator equipment or anything, but there's not much to that room really as far as layout. Wow, can't believe how much I miss doing this stuff. Heh... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4823 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hey, the does the floor count go straight to 7 after 5.5 (6th)? I've been trying to nail the exact floor count down, and this floor has been giving me trouble as I'm not sure how they count it and the mezzanine(s). | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 |
The floorplans that I have from 1924 show the hotel rooms starting at the "7th" floor. So yes that half floor is most likely considered the 6th floor. The main staircase from the lobby floor leads all the way up to the 6th...and if you walk through the 6th floor you can reach the other two stairwells from it, but as far as I remember...the only way to get from the 5th floor to the 7th floor without using the 6th service floor was by an elevator. EDIT: I don't recall much about the 3rd stairwell near the service corridor of each floor. But the floorplans do in fact show that stairwell reaches from the first floor all the way to the top (29th floor), so it is possible to get to every floor using a single stairwell. But that wasn't open for public use, it was an employee area. Since we're on the topic of floors, here's an interesting photo I took back in 1999 of the main check in desk. They had drawn on the wall next to it a picture of the hotel, listing which floors were closed (which turns out to be pretty much ALL of them in this photo). This was never published on my website. Enjoy! http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /bc-closed.jpg (Message edited by pagesix1536 on December 05, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4824 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ah ha. It looks like they don't count a 13th floor (pretty common even still). That might change some things... BTW, isn't their a small 30th floor that runs the length of the central and south towers of the hotel? I can count a small 30th floor in shots taken from above the hotel. It doesn't appear to be connected to the 3-story penthouse on the north tower, though. If there is a small 30th floor (not penthouse 30th), was this the space used by the radio studio that occupied the top, or what that on the 29th floor? | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 |
The 1924 floor plans do in fact reference a 13th floor (rooms 1300-1349). It's possible at at some point in the hotel's history they renumbered the floors above 12 when "13" became unlucky. I hear a lot of hotels had trouble renting out rooms on their 13th floors, so in order to stop losing money due to supersititions, they simply renumbered or used 12A instead. You're correct. In what is referred to the "roof plan", there was a radio broadcasting station which appears to have housed two main rooms, a Studio and a Public space. It basically reached from the south tower as you called it up to about where the elevators would be. Didn't reach all the way to the central tower though. I remember touring that, it had an interesting spiral staircase right off the studio which lead down to the elevator lobby on the floor below it. I haven't studied the new condo floor plans much yet, but it looks like this entire area is slated to be a condo. It's historically the highest point in the hotel that was public (non-mechanical). And, some fun shots. Pretty sure this is the hallway comming right off the stairwell. There's light coming in from the left and right side of the rooms, so I'm quite sure this was taken up in the radio station area. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac/radio_tower3.jpg I can tell this was taken near the studio area because it's the only spot listed on the floor plan that had windows that close together. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac/radio_tower2.jpg This is what I found up there when I visited about 6 years ago. Looks like someone was actually living up there. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac/radio_tower1.jpg (sorry, not sure why the URLs aren't being made into hyperlinks like the forums says it should.) (Message edited by pagesix1536 on December 05, 2006) | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 55 Registered: 07-2006 |
More great posts! I am sure that you cannot wait to see the results of the renovation. It appears that you know the building better than just about anyone. Thanks for your informative posts! | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 |
Believe me, I've been waiting for that day for quite a while now. I really wish I could take a tour of it as it stands now. I still never did find out about the mystery of the Italian Garden. There was quite a lighting display setup in the ceiling of the original room. Sometimes they just cover over this stuff when modernizing these places. I always wondered if that original ceiling of glass and electric lights is still up there somewhere. Here's a floor plan of the radio station from 1924. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /radio_floorplan.jpg | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4826 Registered: 10-2003 |
That shows that the radio station was very much on the central tower. It didn't stretch to the south I think you mean to say. Hey, shoot me an email at lmongt at comcast.net, Pagesize. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3196 Registered: 08-2004 |
From what I understand, they are only restoring the Italian Garden and Grand Ballroom to their original opulence. I wonder if any of the main lobby's original decor was spared the remodeling many years ago and will be visible. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 |
That's what I'm talking about. My big interest now is....what parts of the rooms they're "restoring" are original. I mean judging by that video from Channel 7, the main ballroom looks like it will be entirely recreated. But I know parts of the original lobby still existed in there when I saw it. The gold leaf ceiling was all still there, just covered up with modern flourescent lighting. There was also a LOT of damaged plaster work in various areas of the ceiling on the lobby floor, but as I saw with the Book Building that stuff can be recreated. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /BC_Lobby_Ceiling.jpg BTW not to get off topic (I really want to stay on the BC Hotel), speaking of the Book Building anyone know if the original stained glass dome in the lobby was ever restored and visible to the public now? | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2006 |
I didn't like the article. It never used the word sagacious. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 57 Registered: 07-2006 |
What an ugly mess to put that flourescent lighting above the original gold leaf! I am not sure how designers in the '60s and '70s could have considered that an improvement. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 |
We don't get it now, but maybe it seemed the right thing to do at the time. I mean if you consider in the 50's that the building and design was 20-30 years old, and then put that into the context of today with stuff from the 70's and 80's...it might make more sense. I'm quite sure if you were house shopping and you looked at a house that was built in the 70's but never updated, you'd probably think "omg, this place is horrible! Avacado green wallpaper! Shag carpeting? And for godsakes what's up with all the damn wood paneling?" Sagacious...lol. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 168 Registered: 08-2006 |
and the coppertone appliances in the kitchen and the square white asbestos ceiling tiles in the den. .. Jane | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 782 Registered: 11-2003 |
Pagesix1536, thanks a lot for posting the radio floor plan and the other photos! Any information that helps fill in the blanks is always welcome. I wonder if that bed in one of the radio rooms was actually left over from someone using it as an apartment when the hotel was still open? I notice modern acoustic tile and paneling as well-- maybe it was a recording studio in later years? | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 |
I can't even begin to imagine what that area was used for in the hotel's later years. It definitely was modernized and some of the rooms/walls/layout were different from the original floorplan. The bed...can't explain. It was a fold up portable job. I'll be honest, when I found it there was a lot of water damage around, and mold was growing on it (dark patch in the middle). If someone was in fact living up there, it didn't appear to be recent when I saw it. Anyone see that movie Detroit 9000? If you get out to your local video store sometime, look it up or ask for it. There's quite a lot of footage in there of the BC. The movie was filmed in Detroit, and most of it took place at the BC Hotel, so you'll see some great clips of the ballrooms and exterior. (Lmichigan...that your correct email address? Got NDR when I tried to send to it: 63.240.76.26 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 551 not our customer) (Message edited by pagesix1536 on December 06, 2006) | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 783 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detroit 9000 is definitely worth buying. Good shots of the Grand Ballroom, which was still in great shape at the time. There's also footage of the kitchen area and the service corridor next to the Ballroom. Orange paint in the service areas, visible in the movie, can be seen flaking off in recent pictures. There are also shots of a corner suite and the adjacent corridor. "State of the Union" (1948) recently came out on DVD. It has a quick panning shot showing stores on the south side of Michigan, then the Washington Blvd. lower floors at night (with the marquee sign lit up!) and a scene in a corner suite. However, I had difficulty comparing the plan of the suite (numbered 2419) with the "7-26" floor plan in Kohrman's book. Arrangements of doors didn't match up. Either the scene was shot on a soundstage with liberties taken, or else there had been alterations made on the actual hotel floor after 1924. The BC logo is visible on diningware and the uniforms of hotel staff in the movie. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4833 Registered: 10-2003 |
Pagesize, you didn't type literally "at" did you, because it should have went through. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 117 Registered: 03-2006 |
I wonder if the "5 1/2" floor was the very top of the Italian Garden? It looks like the garden itself was two stories (as was the ballroom) but the garden had a higher ceiling, due to the arched glass "skylight" It's a toss-up as to whether that skylight is still up there, but I would guess that it might be. It probably would have taken the room out of commission for too long to dissemble it (hotels are all about room revenue) | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2006 |
You know...that's one of the things I'm kicking myself for, for not looking into when I was there. I'll bet that service floor did run above those two rooms. Probably where you gained access to maintaining the electrical, lighting, chandeliers..etc..etc. Heh...Lmichigan, I'm a Systems Engineer by day, running hundreds of Windows servers and virtual machines where I work. Been around computers long enough to know what you meant by that. I'll give it another try. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4838 Registered: 10-2003 |
The only thing I can think of is that you may be using an upper case "i" instead of a lower case "l" for the first letter of my address. That, or my service was spotty at some time. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1312 Registered: 01-2004 |
I think if you conducted the same interview today with the BC, it would have quite a bit to say about how its been treated all these years. "My face is shattered and vandalized, and water damage is causing painful arthritis in all my joints. My beautiful ballrooms are stripped and raped of their treasures - I feel so naked and humiliated. My body parts are sold in antique stores and on eBay. My gorgeous copper crown is torn to pieces and has been sold as scrap. PLEASE just give me a lethal morphine drip so I can go back into my coma... I only ask that you give me a dignified burial, please do not let Kwames high school buddy demolish me like the Madison Lenox - all the old hotels cried the day that happened.. Let me rest in peace with Hotel Statler." | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 785 Registered: 11-2003 |
The "5 1/2" floor might extend through the top of the Italian Garden, as you can see in the second photo down on http://www.darkpassage.com/pos tmortems/cadillac.htm This level is the last that covers the entire footprint of the hotel. The skylight is probably hidden on the inside by a drop ceiling or the remains of it. IIRC, the Garden was later converted to office/meeting space. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2006 |
Especially since most of the other historic surfaces were merely covered, instead of removed. Speaking of such, they redid an office building in Omaha into a hotel a few years back, and in the process, removed a false ceiling in the elevator lobby. Imagine their surprise when they found not only a tiled, vaulted ceiling, but an intact crystal chandelier! | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 60 Registered: 07-2006 |
What I would be interested in is to see what the renovation plans call from. Given the floor plan differences, they are clearly going to completely gut the upper hotel room floors, for the new hotel and the condos. It seems less certain what they will do with the lower floors. Depending on the level of damage, they might even rip everything out, and then either put in replica items, or restore the old ones, and then put them back in. So many of the old items left behind may disappear. Does anyone know anything about the renovations and whether they are just gutting everything? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 788 Registered: 11-2003 |
From what I could tell on Channel 7's website video and other photos, over 90% of the remaining intact plaster was ripped out during the cleanup. Beyond a few vague renderings, it's hard to say exactly what the lower levels will look like. At one point or another, sources have indicated that the Grand Ballroom, Italian Garden, and perhaps the lobby and Crystal Ballroom will be restored. I'd be very surprised if they could replicate every last bit of detail. If the surviving examples of plaster weren't saved during the cleanup, very good super-closeup photos (or drawings) would be needed. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4840 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mauser, you'd rather see the hotel torn down than renovated (but not restored)? That's what you seem to be implying. Anyway, I was finally able to nail down the height of the hotel to the very top of the mechanical penthouse (I'd be searching for this fact for years now). According to the superintendent it rises 349'-2.5". I assume the 375 feet number listed for years must have been to the tip of the antenna. Building owners and managers are notorious for exaggerating their properties. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1151 Registered: 12-2005 |
I think I mentioned this somewhere before. The height of a building can be determined with a protracter, a plumb bob and a little trig. You measure your distance from the building and measure the angular elevation from there to the top of the building. The building's height equals the distance times the tangent of the elevation. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 |
great, thanks Jimaz. All we need now is a yellow hardhat and we'll be all set. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 120 Registered: 03-2006 |
The Arcade level has probably changed quite a bit over the years, and will continue to change as stores move in an out. This will most likely be the location of the "sports bar" The lobby and lobby mezzanine levels seem to have been changed quite a bit over the years. It looks like towards the end there was a huge restaurant that took up all of the original lobby and the Cafe, with the reception functions being located in the area where the original main dining room was. (Even in its later years, the place was crazy with restaurants - no wonder it went broke) I'm assuming they will return the lobby to a lobby with a small bar, in an approximation of what it was like upon opening. There will be a restaurant where the cafe was, and keep the reception functions where they were prior to closing, due to the proximity to the escalators and elevators. (The escalators will stay, because the days of bellhops carrying luggage up steps are over - and have been since the 50's) The lobby mezzanine will most likely be converted over to meeting room space. Hopefully, they will restore the balconies overlooking the lobby. The Ballroom and Ballroom Mezzanine floors have probably not been significantly altered - just sorely neglected. The function rooms are a nice mix of sizes (Main Ballroom, junior ballroom, reception area) with a good number of smaller meeting rooms for breakouts and private dining. The proposed expanded meeting space will probably connect to this level by some means. Ballroom Mezzanine would be a good place for hotel offices, and more meeting space - as per the original design. Everything above it will be gutted and totally redesigned. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2006 |
hey Dalangdon....thanks for the rampant speculation ("probably," "seems to," "looks like,""assuming," "most likely," "probably," "would be a good place" etc.), but where are the hard facts? It is indeed fascinating to discuss but would be nice if we had a little more empirical evidence before drifting off into dreamland. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 789 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dalangdon wrote, "The Ballroom and Ballroom Mezzanine floors have probably not been significantly altered - just sorely neglected" There was a photo posted on here a few months back that showed the Grand Ballroom completely gutted after the cleanup, down to the steel and concrete. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 121 Registered: 03-2006 |
Detroitrulez, you're right - I have no hard information to offer you. But having extensive experience in the hotel business - including restoration of historic properties, and adapting them for contemporary use - I thought I'd speculate a bit. Based on my time working with both Westin Corporate (prior to their acquisition by Starwood), and Starwood (post acquisition), I know their trends and best practices fairly well. With that said, I have no inside information on this project. But this is hardly rocket science, and we're not re-inventing the wheel. :-) Burnsie, the point I was trying to make was that the original layout of the banquet space (large ballrooms/reception rooms, along with smaller breakout rooms) is still pretty conventional. In terms of decor, they will have to essentially gut the entire space and re-create it based on photos and castings. The damage was too extensive to be merely patched up. Plus, the various safety and health requirements, along with the expectations of today's meeting planners (in terms of audio-visual, acoustics, electrical loads, etc) would require it. This is different from the Guest Room reconstruction, which will establish entirely different and new room configurations, and will mostly likely be decorated in a contemporary style. (Message edited by dalangdon on December 07, 2006) | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2006 |
I can tell you for certain as far as alterations...meaning structural...that two of the two-story rooms were completely removed prior to this current renovation (most likely in the 50's or 60's). The Italian Garden was split in half to form two separate convention/banquet rooms. And also the main resturant that was on the lobby floor (2nd) near the Washington Blvd side was also split into two separate floors to form offices on the 2nd floor, and a bar/resturant on the 3rd floor. I have photos of all of this if you'd like to see it (as it was about 6 years ago). Other than that, prior to the current renovation, to the best of my knowledge the building is now as it was when it was built in 1924... other than minor walls that might have been removed in hotel rooms or on some of the lower floors...but nothing as major as those two rooms. I wanted to comment on the grand staircase/escelator thing. I think the removal of the grand staircase was a horrible idea, and believe it should be put back. This is part of what gives the "shock 'n' awe" when you first enter the main door of one of these old hotels. The escelators give it a chintzy look, just like all those silly 70's chandeliers they hung in there. Classy craftsmanship is what the original construction had. Marble, brass, crystal...not plastic, steel, and wood paneling. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2006 |
Purple 'leader' Abe Bernstein held court and resided at the top floor of the Book Cadillac until his death in '68. He was allegedly involved in the wire service (bookmaking). | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 |
Hmm..I have book on the Purple Gang. I should look at that up. Sounds interesting. Thanks for the tip Terryh. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1313 Registered: 01-2004 |
"Mauser, you'd rather see the hotel torn down than renovated (but not restored)?" Nah, Im happy they are saving it. Im just saying, if she could talk she might be kinda pissed off. Sorta like a grandparent on lifesupport. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4844 Registered: 10-2003 |
She better be happy that she's being taken off lifesupport to recover, though, don't you think? No need to gripe when the outcome could have very easily been different, and in the worst way if you know what I mean. Pagesix, did you shoot me that email, yet? (Message edited by lmichigan on December 07, 2006) | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2006 |
throw me one. It failed again. pagesix1536 at yahoo dot com. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 122 Registered: 03-2006 |
Pagesix, Aesthetically, I agree with you - I always thought that the escalator they put in at the Olympic in Seattle was tacky. But they do serve a purpose, in this day of impatient, lazy people who won't let a bellhop take their bags (cheapskates! ;-) All they have to do is fall backwards down the stairs with their luggage, and you literally never hear the end of it. There are some hotels that do without - the Palmer House in Chicago has escalators, but they are set well back from the entrance - but they are few and far between. Even the Waldorf has bit the bullet in that regard. Of course, if they put the reception desk on the Arcade level they could avoid a lot of misery in that regard, but I think that takes away from the aesthetic of the grand hotel. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 626 Registered: 11-2004 |
Mauser it may have said that a couple years ago when it's future was in doubt. I don't think it would be that bitter today. "Thank you. Thank you to all the people with the City of Detroit who spent years working on a plan to save me. To the developer and banks that saw past Detroit stereotypes and my scars; to think I could be a profitable building once again. To all the men and women who are now working diligently inside me, restoring me to my former grandeur. Most of all thank you to those who just believed, that I was worth saving and not better off as a parking lot. That believed even with the delays and false starts I was not a lost cause. You gave me hope even in the darkest days, as my sisters the Statler and Madison Lenox fell, for this and everything else I'll be eternally grateful" | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3210 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well I do hope that the ornate plaster ceiling of the grand lobby gets restored/recreated. I've seen a lot of fancy movie palace plasterwork, but that sneak preview above the fluorescent light fixtures IMHO looks spectacular. The new Book Cadillac could truly be Michigan's premier hotel once again! As Dalangdon has mentioned on a previous thread... recreating old ornate plaster ceilings, even from old photographs is easier than most people realize. It's not cheap, but it's doable. There are a handful of firms that specialize in ornate plasterwork. There's a lot of old churches and movie palaces that have been brought back to life with new plasterwork. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 |
Plaster ceilings, heh yeah...after seeing that Channel 7 video, they have a lot of work to do...IF, they even plan to do it. I challenge the current developers! Let's see what you're made of. Let's see if you can succeed where the past 20-30 years of redevelopment have failed. How serious are you at bringing the BC back to it's original glory? And I don't mean, make it functional! Go beyond that. Do the right thing! And just so we all are on the same page here, how about a refresher on what exactly this plaster work looked like before the place was gutted. Pay attention to what previous generations that ran the show at the BC considered a great idea as far as fixing up the place (ceiling tiles are EVIL!). I'll let the pix speak for themselves... http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster8.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster7.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster6.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster5.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster4.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v735/pagesix/Book-Cadillac /plaster1.jpg | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2006 |
Before you go harshing on the past renovators too much, it's best to look at history and technology: When the Book-Cadillac was built, there was no air-conditioning, no large-scale forced air heating systems, very little fire control, and no electronic public address systems - all of these innovations are essential to hotels, and have been since the 1950's or thereabouts. Additionally, The Coconut Grove disaster of 1942, Beverly Hills Supper Club disaster of 1977, and - particularly - the MGM Grand disaster of 1980 each caused stringent revisions of the building codes for hotels and restaurants nationwide. Post-war modernism aside (and that definitely played a role in decor decisions) a lot of the drop ceilings and such were added due to HVAC, fire suppression, and telecommunications/public address requirements: Why fish cable and venting across a solid plaster ceiling when you could just run it across a drop? Obviously, they COULD go the extra mile to preserve historic surfaces while upgrading infrastructure, as the Ballroom's history proved. Hotels such as the Palace in San Francisco, Palmer House in Chicago, and Plaza in New York (to name just a few) managed to do this. But perhaps the culture of Detroit, as one of the main proponents of both Modernism and planned obsolescence, didn't take the ideal of that sort of preservation to heart. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2006 |
Not true. The Cadillac had air conditioning from day one! They referred to it as "refrigerated rooms". Two 100-ton CO2 compressors, one electric and one engine driven. Performed general cooling of the hotel and the rooms, and also took care of refrigerating ice boxes, ice making, etc. You'd be surprised at how much this place actually had right when it opened. Now obviously a lot of it became outdated as time went on, but come on... punch holes in the plaster work so we can put a drop ceiling in and run extra ducts? Surely a decent engineer could find a better way to update. I don't buy all of what you said, because I can find buildings that exist today with similar interior architecture that never fell to the same fate. There are ways to stay up to code, and still be tactful about how you do it. BTW...the Book Cadillac had a total of 23 different refrigerators for food when it opened. The largest, general storage one, measured 62'W x 15'D x 9'H. The smallest ones were the ice cream cabinets coming in around 6' x 2' 6" x 2' 7". | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2006 |
Listen, I'm not against modernization. Buildings need to be updated...no doubt. But you have to realize that there's a certain element of "art" to these older buildings that was put there for the sole purpose of looking nice, being extravagant, and to show off. A lot of man hours were put in on that stuff. Buildings of that era weren't just built to be "functional"...they were 30-story pieces of artwork. I don't have the figures in front of me here, but the Fisher Building alone I believe had 1/3rd of it's total building cost devoted just to "beautifying" the building with mable, sculptures, plaster work, brass, copper, etc..etc..etc. You don't see that stuff in today's age!! We're all about glass and steel. Whatever is easiest to clean. Whatever is the cheapest, and gets the job done. I'm not saying let's build buildings like they used to....but for the love of Detroit, at least let's keep what we do have from that time, the way it was intended to be from the architects that built it. These were noble men with big dreams and deep pockets at the time. They created some fantastic stuff, that to be honest.....we could never afford to create from scratch today because it would be deemed unfeasable, unrealistic to spend that kind of money on that kind of stuff. (Message edited by pagesix1536 on December 08, 2006) | ||
Michikraut Member Username: Michikraut Post Number: 201 Registered: 05-2004 |
dream on Pagesix1536, who today will pay for such work. Back when many of these "architectural treasures" were built, there were Artisans, craftsman, and construction people willing to work for peanuts- because that is what they were paid. Many were just off the boat from the "old world" and were happy to have a job. The hours put into those details and surfaces would be impossible to pay at todays wages. Many of the buildings with such extravagant detailing, that we NOW sigh and drool over, are in existance because they more than likely fell out of style and had a period of neglect. Poverty and Obscurity has generally been the best preservator in the past. When a building is continually used and updated, many of the original details will be destroyed and/or carted away to make way for modern tastes and style. The Palmer had to undergo a massive restoration in the early 80´s to regain the glory of what it is today, the same applies to the "The Plaza", "Raffles Hotel", "The Manderin", "St. George", and other grand hotels. I have a good book documenting the recycling of building and their life-expectancy. Will post when I get the title and author. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2006 |
That's exactly my point, the hours and $$$ would be insane to do this kind of stuff today....which is exactly WHY punching holes in perfectly good plasterwork probably wasn't one of the greatest decisions. It doesn't matter at this point, we can debate and cast blame, and throw opinions on what was done in the past until Lowell's servers run out of drivespace. What matters is where are we going in the future with this project. I know what I'd like to see. I know what I've heard that the current developers are saying they are planning to do. What actually happens remains to be seen...but I hope the current developers knew what they were getting into when they decided to do this. This is no small job, recreating the main ballroom in it's original look is hardcore work. It would be nice to walk into that room when it's done, and look at pictures from 1924, and not be able to tell the difference. That's really the Holy Grail of all of this. I think that would be the talk of the town in regards to the re-opening of the BC...that kind of work. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 124 Registered: 03-2006 |
Pagesix, the Cadillac had a primitive cooling system in the public rooms only. High tech at the time to be sure, but even by the hotel's own admission (via the press release above), it couldn't cool a room lower than 72 degrees, and that was probably when the room was empty. Put 500 people in there on an 80 degree night, and you can bet they were opening the windows. It's nothing like what people have come to expect from climate control. That didn't come about until the years after WWII. Again, I'm not defending desecrating the original elements. And I agree with you that there are ways to stay up to code and still preserve history, and that owners should do that, but they didn't. (There was a really fascinating article out there somewhere about the electricians at the Palmer House, and what they have to contend with, but of course I can't find it) The good news is that this stuff can be recreated, and in some cases improved, by the use of more durable materials. The train station in Seattle was butchered in a similar manner in the 60's, but instead of just punching some holes and putting in a drop ceiling, they actually removed all the marble and plasterwork below the drop ceiling, and replaced it with Formica and smooth plaster. Luckily, a few areas didn't get touched, so the restoration workers were about to make a mold from the original plaster, and cast new plasterwork made out of some new lightweight polymer, that looks exactly like the plaster, but won't crumble. That's is most likely what they will be doing at the Book-Cadillac Ballrooms and Italian Garden. Whether they will restore that level of detail to the lobby is anyone's guess. Based on the architect's rendering in the paper a few months back, my guess would be no. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2006 |
Sounds cool. Hey, you know what I always wondered too...when they put copper roofs on these buildings, it's never protected...hence it turns green right? Ever wonder what these buildings would look like with a coated copper roof, so that it stays copper looking and shiny? Anyone have an pictures or examples of a building that's had this done, and I don't mean of a residential house like the have now where they're putting copper tops on some of the windows on houses...I mean on a historic building that was restored/renovated. Excellent posts here BTW everyone. Shows class when we can debate things and not reduce to name calling or anything like that...very admirable group of posters out here! | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2006 |
I had always assumed that the reason people chose copper for exterior applications is because they wanted the look of that patina that develops when copper is exposed to the elements. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 791 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dalangdon-- Many air conditioning installations were very effective long before the post-WWII years. The huge L-shaped addition to Downtown Hudson's had Carrier a/c throughout when it was completed in 1928, and much if not all of that equipment was in use until the store closed. Michikraut wrote, "When a building is continually used and updated, many of the original details will be destroyed and/or carted away" That has often been the case but certainly not always. Examples include the Fisher and GM Buildings. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2006 |
Wow, what a building. The main thing that get's me down about this ( and it's the same in Pittsburgh I is that, from what I can see, they are going to tear down a nice neighboring building with a lot of class to put up a parking garage. Great downtowns are not places where every other building is a parking garage. this is from the detroit blog "The good news is the long-abandoned Book Cadillac Hotel is being renovated. The bad news is that an even older building right next door is being torn down to make room for a parking garage for its tenants. The building, just to the east of the Book Cadillac, was originally built for the People’s Outfitting Company, once one of the largest department stores in the city but now pretty much unknown by most Detroiters. It’s been empty for almost a decade, boarded up better than just about any abandoned building in Detroit. The only hints of its contents from outside are the sight of yellowed blinds hanging lopsided in dirty windows." | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 62 Registered: 07-2006 |
Pagesix, From your original post: ". You have three men who are back of you, who have an ideal, that of making Washington Boulevard the Fifth Avenue of Detroit and who have youth back of them and time to do it in; you have a solid foundation that goes down 120 feet, a foundation that is financial as well as structural; you have the prestige of being not only the tallest building in Detroit, but the tallest hotel in the world; you have the distinction of having the most powerful wireless in the world; you have beauty, bulk, power, and you have a touch of the artistic in those four statues that gives you a cultural atmosphere; you have the last word in hotel equipment -----" What is the "the most powerful wireless in the world" the article refers to? Radio? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3218 Registered: 08-2004 |
From my movie palace knowledge... air conditioning in its earliest primitive form was first introduced circa 1926 in a few movie palaces. This would sorta confirm that 1928 date that Bursie mentioned for Hudson's. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 793 Registered: 11-2003 |
I should have been more clear: "Cooling for human comfort, rather than industrial need, began in 1924, noted by the three Carrier centrifugal chillers installed in the J.L. Hudson Department Store in Detroit, Michigan." Source: http://inventors.about.com/lib rary/weekly/aa081797.htm (also noted on many other websites) | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2006 |
Hey Cman710, to answer your question, yes they were mainly referring to the WCX radio station that originally broadcast from the top of the Book-Cadillac. It was an AM station broadcasting at 580 khz (516.9 meters), and was a Class B station which was allowed to transmit between 500-1000 watts of power. Because of how AM travels better at night, the height of the antennas, and the power they were broadcasting with...the station broadcasts reportedly could reach every state in the US, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Alaska, Mexico, Columbia, and some even more remote than that. It was quite a powerful "wireless" form of entertainment, music, news for millions of people. Along with that, and this I can't confirm really as for some reason there isn't a lot of detail on this...I believe the antenna's may have also been used to transmit/receive telegraph information. There was an entire telegraph office/area on the Lobby Floor near the Lounge area. Radiotelegraphy requires antennas, and the Book-Cadillac had two of the largest/highest in the world. Again, I don't honestly know this for sure. But this may also have been another "wireless" technology that they used at the time. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4859 Registered: 10-2003 |
Was WCX in the tower from the beginning, or was it added later? Also, when did the radio station move, and when were the antenna taken down? | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2006 |
Looks like WCX was added just a little bit after the hotel opened...although the literature from the opening of the hotel implies that the antennas and studio were there the day it opened, ahead of WCX. Check out this link... http://www.wjr.com/article.asp ?id=144992 And also looks like WCX didn't stay for long either. Couple of years. Not sure when the antenna's were removed. I have a postcard from the 50s when it was called the Sheraton-Cadillac, and the rendering doesn't show any antennas on it. I also own this one which this site lists as 1945, where they're not visible either... http://theoldentimes.com/book- cad_pc.html EDIT: I do have another postcard that DOES show the antennas on it, but I believe this to be a rendering from the 20's based on the style of automobiles showing in the postcard. (Message edited by pagesix1536 on December 09, 2006) | ||
Beantown Member Username: Beantown Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 |
Does anyone know when or why the enormous exterior ledge at the 27th floor was removed? It existed in the old pictures from the 20's and 30's, but certainly doesn't exist now, and is not in any of the projected 2008 renderings from the Ferchill Group. This ledge defines the top of the "shaft" that was referenced on Pagesix1536's website: http://team-miller.org/tmc/cad illac_history.htm I speculate that it wasn't durable enough as originally constructed, and that at some point it was removed for safety reasons (so that concrete wasn't falling down from 300 feet up). But I was a bit surprised that it was not included as part of the exterior renovation plans. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 794 Registered: 11-2003 |
The "most powerful wireless in the world" may have been the hotel exaggerating a bit. 500 to 1,000 watts isn't very powerful. But I don't know how WCX's antenna height vs. the height that was actually needed for that frequency would affect things. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1318 Registered: 01-2004 |
All the old cornice work was removed from most buildings along with the old style theater marquis in one fell swoop. Safety issues. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2006 |
500-1000 watts was powerful in 1924. Just as a 375 ft. tall hotel was "the tallest in the world". We always outdo ourselves in time. Biggest/baddest/best usually is short lived. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 795 Registered: 11-2003 |
Both the 27th floor and 6th floor cornices were removed about 1960. Following info is from http://www.200riverplace.com/p ress.htm?storyID=3 "In 1958, 80-year-old Myrtle Taggart was standing on Woodward when a cornice fell off the Ferguson Building and killed her. "Mayor Louis Miriani ordered all "downtown property owners to remove any dangerous gingerbread from their buildings immediately." Interestingly, some buildings (notably Hudson's) were exempted from or ignored this edict. | ||
Beantown Member Username: Beantown Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2006 |
On Dec 5th above, Pagesix1536 and Burnsie mentioned David Kohrman and his book "Detroit's Statler and Book-Cadillac Hotels: The Anchors of Washington Boulevard". Does anyone know where this book is available? I have asked around at local book stores, and they say that it is out of print. It is not available online at places like Amazon. Kohrman's Forgotten Detroit website says that you can contact him to purchase a copy, but I have tried that and he doesn't return the inquiries. I even went as far as to contact Kate Everingham at Arcadia Publishing, and she told me that there isn't a large, demonstrated demand for it. This despite that there doesn't appear to be any way for the public to demonstrate demand for it. Before I got back with her, I wanted to ask the message board: 1. Is the book available somewhere that I haven't looked? 2. How many other people would be interested in purchasing the book (I believe that it retails for $20). If I can confirm a moderate amount of interest, Arcadia may agree to print up some more copies. | ||
Pagesix1536 Member Username: Pagesix1536 Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2006 |
I'm in contact with Dave directly... I'm not sure how many he may have, but yes if there is interest in more copies of the book, I can see what I can do for ya. (Message edited by pagesix1536 on December 11, 2006) | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 797 Registered: 11-2003 |
Keep an eye on alibris.com, as well. No copies are listed now but may turn up at any time. | ||
Beantown Member Username: Beantown Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2006 |
Pagesix - if you would, please hit me up at jeffbeno "at" hotmail dot com. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 71 Registered: 07-2006 |
I would be interested in buying that book, too. |
