  Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1038 Registered: 03-2005 |
U.S. manufacturers getting desperate for skilled people "...U.S. manufacturing production last year totaled $1.5 trillion, or 12% of gross domestic product, the broadest measure of economic activity within U.S. borders." http://www.usatoday.com/money/ economy/employment/2006-12-05- skilled-workers-shortage_x.htm While Michigan's workforce is recruited away to Wyoming... Wyoming wins over Michigan job seekers http://www.usatoday.com/money/ economy/employment/2006-12-04- wyoming-job-seekers-michigan_x .htm | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 774 Registered: 12-2005 |
And yet executives making seven figures + stock options don't want to pay skilled (technically educated) workers "all that money". | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 371 Registered: 08-2006 |
Good article! Maybe the guys running the big three will read it and realize there are people left in the country that actually know how to run a business. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1604 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yep, hard to run a business with a ~$10,000 loss on every vehicle applied to employees pushing prices too high and forcing non-employees to pay a subsidy. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1040 Registered: 03-2005 |
Is the fact that Michigan is seemingly unable to attract these types of manufacturing jobs due to: 1. Lack of a diversified manufacturing base 2. Lack of a diversified skill set base in the human capital space as it relates to manufacturing 3. Unions 4. The SBT and Michigan's terrible reputation for an anti-business climate. 5. The entitlement mentality that pervades the State in general | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 372 Registered: 08-2006 |
That is peculiar how GM or Ford loses money on Impalas and Tauruses, while Toyota makes money hand over fist on the Camry. Must be the Union's fault right? Go right on believing that if you wish. But the people working in Plants down south aren't working for nothing. Last I heard as the company does better, so does the pay and the profit sharing. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the workers in Nissan and Toyota plants are'nt bringin' down 80K / yr. And it's not hurting the japs profits in the least. That's the difference between good leadership and bad leadership. | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2005 |
The taxes and other costs associated with manufacturing in Europe is much higher than in the United States, yet goods, including autos are manufactured in Europe at a profit. Unions are the scapegoat of corporations that have mismanaged and failed to produce products that are attractive and competitive against the competition. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 278 Registered: 10-2006 |
C_brain, it's about SKILLED workers. Not cannon fodder assembly line workers. If you actually had a skill, you, too, could move to Georgetown. Make 80k,buy a Tundra to replace the mopar. Life would be good. Why don't you do it? | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1043 Registered: 03-2005 |
Gmich, while I agree that unions are not entirely to blame for the current crisis MI is in, is it the fault of corporations for having to pay $67/hr to people without a Degree and limited skill sets? As this puts them in a severely disadvantageous position on cost, does it not make sense that the tens of billions of dollars allocated towards wages and healthcare that are not made available in the private sector by comparison could have instead been spent on something like R&D? This would have enabled these corporations to make 'products that are attractive and competitive against the competition'. Wouldn't you agree? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 375 Registered: 08-2006 |
80k / yr is the unskilled grunts manning the nut runners. The skilled labor down there would be over a $100K I'm sure. I'm set to graduate in Spring. Currently debating whether I'll relocate for available work or roll the dice and get the Masters in 14 mos after that. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 281 Registered: 10-2006 |
C-B, you sound like you're going to be a Conservative right quick. Once you get your head right, let the rest of us know where you live, we'll have a welcoming party. I hope the Masters isn't in Woman's Studies. EWWW. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 377 Registered: 08-2006 |
Naw I had a master's of women's studies going back to when I was 18. Lotso fun, but does not pay well. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 284 Registered: 10-2006 |
EWWWW. Now I have to go shower in lacquer thinner. Union made? Not sure. Is there a Brotherhood of Lacquer Thinner Makers? Don't you learn? Stay away from the wimmen. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1606 Registered: 12-2003 |
Get your masters if you can afford the cost and the time.
A little math Big Three Car Price of Materials + Employee Wages($1,000) + Employee Health Care($1,250)+Employee Discount(~$6,000) = Huge amount of non-profit costs associated with the car. To make a profit they need to look at the cost and triple it. Stock Impala Employee Price ~ $21,000 Public Price ~ $21,000++++++ Stock Camry Price ~ $18,000 Public Price ~ 18,000 Both of the cars are desirable but outside of the family, friends, brother, sister, dog plan no one is going to continue to overpay for that Impala. Employee buys a Stock Impala @ 21K, First 10K+ is spoken for. And it is not also accounting for employee pension costs. It has nothing to do with who is smarter it has to do with basic business understanding. One more fact, GM sold ~230k cars in 2005, Camry was sold ~430k times in the US. The Camry outsold all Ponitac brands combined in 2005. Just keep on blaming management only while employee costs are in the Billions each year and sales continue to drop on their overpriced autos. The Toyota Manufacturing process is considered the best in the world. Denying that the UAW is not one of the impediments to adopting the full process is due to your rose colored glasses. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1849 Registered: 10-2004 |
The combined market capitalization of GM and Ford totals around $25 billion, whereas Toyota's capitalization got over $200 billion for its first time early this year. Other foreign auto firms have more net worth than GM or Ford. Obviously, some companies are beating the two remaining US auto companies at their own game, even when building some of their vehicles in the US. | ||
Brandon48202 Member Username: Brandon48202 Post Number: 129 Registered: 12-2004 |
GM Market cap: $17.05 billion Ford Market Cap: $14.51 billion Combined market cap: $31.56. You were only off by about $6.5 billion. FYI: Harley Davidson's market cap is: $19.12 billion (Message edited by brandon48202 on December 05, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1850 Registered: 10-2004 |
GM's capitalization at EOY 2005 was quite lower than now. Still, Toyota alone was over $200 billion in early 2006. And there's still another segment of Toyota that wasn't included in that. It's also larger than most other auto firms. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 380 Registered: 08-2006 |
Interesting, what do the market caps mean? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1853 Registered: 10-2004 |
Market capitalization is an approximation of how much a publicly traded company is worth on a stock market. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 381 Registered: 08-2006 |
Oh I see. So, the lower the share price, the lower the market cap. Or the combined value of all the shares? Does that include brick and mortar capital too, or just share value? | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1263 Registered: 11-2003 |
The UAW contract talks with the Big 3 that are coming up will tell us a lot about the future of those companies. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1854 Registered: 10-2004 |
Net worth obviously. Share prices are usually set (by forward or reverse stock splits) to keep their various prices within a usual price range (under $100 or so). If I owned the one and only share of Ford, I'd still be a multi-billionaire, so I wouldn't complain--as long as I could sell it... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 5294 Registered: 09-2005 |
I am truly enjoying this thread and will refrain from posting (applause from the loon left heard here, thank you very much) other than this - GREAT discussion & fact posting, with the post of the week (and a # of close runner-ups) right here: FortressW said: "C-B, you sound like you're going to be a Conservative right quick. Once you get your head right, let the rest of us know where you live, we'll have a welcoming party. I hope the Masters isn't in Woman's Studies. EWWW." Then: "EWWWW. Now I have to go shower in lacquer thinner. Union made? Not sure. Is there a Brotherhood of Lacquer Thinner Makers?" Special thanks to MrJ, sj and Livernois for their usual well-thought-out and factual posts (if you happen to appreciate fact-filled, well thought out posts, that is) | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 3004 Registered: 10-2003 |
Market cap is the selling price of the shares times the total number of shares. Market cap is, at best, a crude metric of a company's value since it reflects merely the current share selling price of the shares available on the market at this time (which represent a fraction of the total number of shares of the company). In the event of ALL a company's shares trading at the same time, well that would certainly effect it's market price so market cap is an artificial stat (kinda like a middle reliever's ERA's in baseball). What a company is actually "worth" is certainly different from it's market cap: consider Google's market cap vs Lucent's market cap right now ... it is quite likely Lucent's realestate holdings in central NJ ALONE are "worth" more in actually real hard $ than all of Google (but, for those of us who haven't sold our GOOG it it has certainly been a fun ride so far, also this doesn't mean that LU is a buy either) Yay Stock Market! ... | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 382 Registered: 08-2006 |
That is interesting. Thanks for the lesson on the Stock Market. Now onto my gripe pertaining to the domestics whining they are hamstrung by supporting retirees in the from of paying pensions: 1. These same retirees added to the bottom line of their company in the good old days and should expect every right to be provided for in their golden years. 2. When I had the Pleasure (Ha! If you could call it that) of working for GM, numerous abuses existed in the white collar world where I worked, like: Engineers and managers taking early retirements, even as young as 50 years old, where they collect nearly full pay and benefits until their pensions and SS kick in. To add insult to injury, these guys would "Double Dip" That is while collecting these perks, they would be allowed to rehire in as contractors in the same department, getting wages that matched or exceeded their pre retirement pay. If they chose not to rehire in their jobs too some extent minimal would be absorbed by the surrounding staff, but often time someone else would be assigned to it. That meant some one else needed to be recruited. Yes that still happens today, no matter how much we are told no new jobs are added people are being hired all the time. So now we as consumers are paying the bill to have the fifty year old white collar guy sit on a beach, plus the paycheck for the 24 year old fresh out the MBA program. So that extra three thousand you spend on the Impala vs. the Camry goes to pay for these Management Fubars they try to pass off as spending too much on UAW people. If they could not afford to have the 50 year old engineer retire, make him work until his retirement age of 67, Therefore no need to replace him with that 24 yo MBA. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1609 Registered: 12-2003 |
Only $3,000 if you are an employee. It at least another $5,000-$10,000 for non-employees at the minimum. Cambrian, one more difference in your post is that mostly UAW pensions are funded by hard money. The stock value or company finances really do not effect their pensions. The White Collar workers are mostly the exact opposite, they are funded completely with company stock if they are not careful and manage their pensions correctly or know someone who can drive them in the right direction. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1048 Registered: 03-2005 |
I return to my original question: why is it that Michigan does not have a diversified base of manufacturing jobs available? Other Midwestern states seem to be utilizing their manufacturing capacity to much greater effect. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1611 Registered: 12-2003 |
Many would argue with you saying that Michigan is actually very diverse when it comes to Manufacturing.
From the MMA. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1860 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Despite predictions of the manufacturing industry’s decline in Michigan, established and emerging manufacturing companies are aggressively positioning themselves to be global leaders and proving they are “in the game” for the long term. From the MMA." If only those words could be turned into action and increase the workforce instead of merely hanging on to a declining manufacturing sector. 2007/2008 are predicted to be awash in manufacturing job elimination--much worse than the past couple years in that regard. August and September 2007 will herald this with the next UAW contracts. What UAW's Gettelfinger says and what will really happen are two entirely different animals, indeed. | ||
Mjb3 Member Username: Mjb3 Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2004 |
Bob is right, the 2007 UAW contract talks will determine whether Big Three will remain viable. If UAW was smart, they would offer up flexible work rules(the kind they had to for DCX Dundee engine plant) to every Big Three plant. Meaning, electrician can be told to drive forklift, millwright may have to work assy. line during busy rushes. Re: market caps of GM, Ford , Toyota. The relative debt situation really hurt Ford and GM when S&P, Moodys, downgraded them. I remember GM had quite a bit of outstanding debt in bonds, loans. The same applies to Ford. Is Toyota debt free? | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1049 Registered: 03-2005 |
"Meaning, electrician can be told to drive forklift, millwright may have to work assy. line during busy rushes." Incredible, I had heard about these 'rules' but couldn't fathom anything so stupid possibly being true. What a terrible organization. | ||
Ltdave Member Username: Ltdave Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2006 |
someone posted the employee discount at $6,000.00... i work for the Germans in Auburn Hills and on each of the 3 DCX cars ive purchased, the discount amounted to what the sales tax/title fees would be on those cars. nowhere near $6,000.00... also, in my plant of 275 hourly employees, we have 17 supervisors and managers. then we have 3 department managers, and 2 environmental guys who make sure that the used lightbulbs are put in a certain type cardboard container and that only a certain type of paper is put in the recycle boxes (which i BELIEVE is then thrown in the compactor!). then we have the plant manager and an operations manager. thats a 13.75:1 ratio. all of these salary guys got profit sharing of 8.4% to 97% (of what they earned thru-out the year). $180,000 plus 97% is A LOT OF MONEY. and it wasnt the Union members getting it... theres lots of blame to go around... | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1612 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have received employee discounts on DCX cars which are all I drive and they have been $6,000 on a Cherokee and a Durango. A Friends Discount was $3,000 on a 300. It all depends on the car. For example: Straight from Chysler: MSRP Employee 2005 Crossfire 30,070 23,832 2005 Sebring Cvt 30,165 26,100 2006 T&C minivan 21,985 17,785 2006 Durango SXT 29,925 23,129 2006 Wrangler SE 19,050 16,871 Industry Average Employee discounts are between 10-20%. Look into todays paper I am sure you will find a minivan for around $89 a month. I once called a dealership on a price quote in the paper, turned out it was a mis-print. It was only an employee price of $139 a month, I asked the public price and responded $412 a month. Think about next time someone you know is getting laid off and you are crying about some guys salary. Ford bought out 38,000 workers. For some perspective, 38k workers @ $20 an hour, 40 hours a week for 52 weeks is over 1 Billion dollars a year. No company can carry those kinds of liabilities will giving their overpriced products away. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 291 Registered: 04-2006 |
Southeast Michigan is also desperate for good public mass transit. Instead of raising taxes for this, we should find skilled transportation professionals who can do the job at a low enough cost to make our region competitive with other regions first. Or, we will continue to lose more jobs. |
