  Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5237 Registered: 02-2004 |
The SMART bus system his now left Livonia for good, only to be replaced by their own public transit by the use of the their own property tax dollars and extra grants from the state and federal government. I was wondering will it work? In the meantime, SMART BUS route #415 and #420 has moved their routes from Greenfield and Joy Rd. to Downtown Detroit along Woodward Ave. connecting to Northland Mall and Meijers SMART BUS route #125 has extended their routes to 30 mins from the Smith and McManara Terminals to Downtown Detroit. NEW SMART BUSES route #385 Orchard Lake Rd. from West Bloomfield to Founders' Park in Farmington Hills has been added. SMART BUS route #315 Grand River Ave. will start from Haggerty Rd. to 7 mile Rd. and Grand River Ave. SMART BUS route #280 Beech Daly Rd. will do its route from Target on Ford Rd. in Dearborn Heights to 7 Mile Rd. and Grand River Ave. and SMART BUS route #285 will extend its routes from The Smith Terminal to Target in Dearborn Heights. D-DOT route #38 Plymouth Rd. will continue its routes from Downtown Detroit during the day. Webb and La Salle during midday and Gratiot during the evening to the Meijers on Schoolcraft (I-96) FWY to exchange to the Livonia Public Transit Buses. D-DOT Imperial will extend its routes from the City-County building to Livonia Mall during the day and evening hours. Will Livonia's Busses work for those who want to get to work, shop ot visit their friends. or would it be a DOOMED TO FAILURE? Comments please. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 361 Registered: 07-2004 |
Sad sad day for Metro Detroit. Livonia should be ashamed of themselves. Metro Detroit needs a good metro gov that will insure a bus runs down every other street in Livonia and allows every resident to walk to a bus, and get into downtown Detroit. The whole region must be connected together by quality public transit. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 508 Registered: 02-2006 |
Miketoronto, Have you ever been to Livonia? | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 362 Registered: 07-2004 |
I have family in Livonia. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 509 Registered: 02-2006 |
But have you ever been to Livonia? | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 161 Registered: 02-2006 |
I live in Livonia, and would neither ride a bus on a regular basis, nor would an overwhelming majority of my neighbors. Of course that's an assumption, but I believe it to be a pretty accurate one. Why not? Because the benefits of driving a car far outweigh those of riding the bus, and traffic, gas prices, and car maintenance simply aren't big enough deterrents. My car is clean, comfortable, economical, and I can choose the temperature, radio station, and make a stop at the dry cleaners on the way home without any prior planning. With a bus, you're still paying for the transportation. However, you are now at the mercy of the bus schedule and routes. If it's anything like the busses I've been on in NYC, it's almost faster to walk due to traffic and the frequency of stops. I recall taking a bus from the airport and watching an older couple (who walked quite slowly) actually keep pace with us. One of my fellow Livonia friends used to work downtown and actually had SMART passes paid for by his employer. In that case, the bus ride downtown was more cost effective than driving his 10 MPG 80's "hot rod" which frequently broke down. He used the Park & Ride at Inkster road, which I don't believe is affected. For the record, I voted to keep SMART, but it was out of principle and not out of personal need. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1235 Registered: 11-2003 |
I would imagine that Livonia's system will last maybe 2 years and then they will cut it due ot lack of ridership, and just run something like SMART's Connector Community Transit to move seniors around. But hey, that is what the citizens of Livonia want. I'd rather talk about Walled Lake voting to add SMART service. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 363 Registered: 07-2004 |
Wazootyman it does not matter if your neighbours or you use it. The fact is public transit should be provided to every area of a metropolitan area that has close to 5 million people. With quality public transit, just think, kids could use the bus to get the mall, to school, maybe if the service was good people would even use it to get to work. And the most important, the people who rely on transit because they can't drive. Anyway Livonia should feel very bad about what they are doing. Ontop of that, if you are going to run your own public transit system, atleast provide good service. Oakville a suburb of Toronto with about the same population as Livonia(and with much higher income levels then Livonia I might add)runs its own public transit system. But they actually do it right. They provide service seven days a week. There is a bus route within walking distance of almost every home and business in Oakville, and service is provided till 1:25AM seven days a week. During the late evening hours after 9:00PM a Dial-A-Bus provides service for the remainder of the evening. But people can alteast get to where they need to go. Livonia on the other hand decided to go it on their own, but not provide proper service. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1933 Registered: 10-2003 |
Miketoronto, what you're not acknowledging is that Livonia purposely designed its bus service to fail. The bus service provided is intentionally poor, so that ridership will be poor. At the end of the day, the city will say, "See, people in Livonia don't ride the bus," and will scrap the program entirely. Southeast Michigan is the home of the self-fulfilling prophecy--don't you know that by now? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 361 Registered: 06-2006 |
It's kinda funny to still see people bitching about us getting rid of the SMART bus system since we have already forgotten about the whole thing and moved on... (Message edited by thejesus on November 27, 2006) | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 162 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Wazootyman it does not matter if your neighbours or you use it." I don't know about you, but I don't like wasting money on things I don't use. Again, I voted to support it, but only out of principle. "Anyway Livonia should feel very bad about what they are doing." We feel awful. "...with much higher income levels then Livonia" About $10,000 more in household median income, per the 2000 and 2001 US and Canadian censuses, respectively (adjusted to US currency). Not exactly "much higher". Livonia tends to span middle to upper-middle class depending on the region, so it's likely a similar comparison anyhow. "With quality public transit, just think, kids could use the bus to get the mall, to school..." We have school buses, and I assure you we have plenty. Kids seem to also have no problem getting to the mall. Also, the last thing mall owners want is more groups of loitering kids... I'm glad your example works for the residents, but until Livonians decide they need such a system, we (as a collective city) won't want to pay for one. | ||
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64 Post Number: 239 Registered: 11-2003 |
I echo Wazootyman's comments. As a resident of Livonia, I don't see the need for a bus system. Is anyone upset that Northville and Canton doesn't allow Smart in their communities? Where is the outrage? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1935 Registered: 10-2003 |
This is from today's Freep:
And you Livonians seem content with this, since you're able to get to work in your car. Yet you wonder why Southeast Michigan is such an economic laughingstock. Maybe it's because employers like Steve Valente don't want to deal with this bullshit. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1807 Registered: 10-2004 |
"For example, one of his employees can get to her job at 7 Mile and Merriman in time for her 4 p.m. shift but has no way to get home at midnight." No sweat! She can work a double shift and leave after 8 am. Twice the time; twice the income... Bah, humbug to you Danny! [getting in the spirit for the coming season] | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4765 Registered: 10-2003 |
Your typical "I got mine, now get your own" social darwanism in the metro that cannibalizing itself by the day. A self-fulfilling prophecy, indeed. If you or your neighbors don't ride it then it must not be needed, huh? Yeah, great logic there, and no wonder Livonia will never be able to reinvent itself. As has been said, Livonia is sabotaging its own endeavor at mass transit. It is being set up to fail. They knew the outcry they'd here if they decided to pull out of SMART without a replacement mass transit option, so they are backdooring the deal by putting in a meager shortbus system that no one will ride. Good job, Livonia. With that said, SMART's route #415 and #420 change sounds promising. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 266 Registered: 04-2006 |
It was the Michigan Department of Transportation that shut down the buses in Livonia. They cut off state revenue sharing to SMART without regard to any needs of anyone except the car loving suburbanites who do not care about Detroit. We stand up for the rights of everyone and worked very hard to save SMART as forty-five percent of us including me voted to keep SMART. Only to be cut down by cowards who know little or nothing about mass transit or any facts related to the real reasons of the opt out. SMART was too easy of a target for our city council members because of the lack of leadership and commitment in Lansing to take care of our large cities such as Detroit and decaying inner suburbs such as Livonia which is losing taxpaying property owners to fast growing cities such as Brighton. I wrote a very nice editorial about SMART and filled the buses up and I know the facts. The SMART buses will return to Livonia if we all stand up and march in Lansing against SEMCOG for siphoning state transit funds off to build more freeways and pay for more rail studies that will benefit very few of us without a good decent public bus system such as SMART to connect to the rail lines. It's our leaders who should be ashamed but as long as some of the DY'ers and others keep up the slander, the problems in our area will only get worse. This is Michigan and more concrete and higher taxes will always be the answers until people in this forum and elsewhere can get educated and learn the real facts. We all lost on this day because we did not stand up and fight to protect those who can least afford to pay higher taxes, the poor and the handicapped. (Message edited by Trainman on November 27, 2006) | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 364 Registered: 07-2004 |
Wazootyman your comment about why pay for something you don't use, really floors me. You better hope you and your neighbours in Livonia never get in a situation where you can't drive, and do need to rely on public transit. Because then you all will sing a different tone pretty fast. I told my co-workers about this today at work in the office, and they where just in shock that places can even vote on public transit service. Public Transit like police, fire, and EMS are esential services. There should be no vote. The service should just be provided. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5239 Registered: 02-2004 |
Those folks in Facist Livonia are really blind that they will pay out of their pockets for a their own public bus system that would never work. WHAT A WASTE OF PUBLIC, FEDERAL AND STATE TAXES. YAY!!!!! | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 365 Registered: 07-2004 |
Things go in circles. One day the residents of Livonia will need a bus system, and there won't be any buses. Thats when the residents will get the kick in the butt that they deserve for removing public transit and standing people who can't drive. As far as I am concerned, there should be some sort of ID system for the Park and Ride system, so that people from Livonia pay double the fare. Because its not right that they vote to cancel bus service, and then just drive a couple blocks over to catch a park and ride bus that another suburb is paying for. Ontop of that if Livonia does not want to pay for bus service for outsiders. Then Livonia residents should be charged a payroll tax if they happen to work in a different suburb. Give Livonia a taste of their own medicine. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1812 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Things go in circles. One day the residents of Livonia will need a bus system, and there won't be any buses." "Then Livonia residents should be charged a payroll tax if they happen to work in a different suburb." Socialists never seem to accept defeats gracefully, it seems. Livonians awoke to another morning, and so far they're oblivious to radiclib fear-mongering. Might the Farmingtonians think differently when they will have another go at voting for SMART or not? Could be. Stay tuned. But as usual, so much for home rule as far as most socialists are concerned--wherever they are. Another "Duh!" is also necessary here--to put things straight. Livonians, among others, already have been paying stiff payroll taxes if they work in the glorious city of Detroit. Could this convenient omission be due to general ignorance on the part of some? Obviously, unless some poster is attempting again to obscure reality. Another thing that usually goes in circles is socialist circular logic and "reasoning." | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1936 Registered: 10-2003 |
What does that have to do with Livonia's lousy new bus service? It's not as if Detroit is the only city that imposes a commuter tax--most large American cities do. Then again, most large American cities also have functional transportation systems, but I digress. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 512 Registered: 02-2006 |
Have you had a difficult time getting around Livonia? How can you call a two day old service lousy? I believe Livernoisyard's tax comment was directed to Miketoronto's suggestion of a payroll tax for Livonians who work in other places. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 362 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Things go in circles. One day the residents of Livonia will need a bus system, and there won't be any buses.Thats when the residents will get the kick in the butt that they deserve for removing public transit and standing people who can't drive." Well, I've been here 26 years and never once used or needed a bus to get anywhere...don't plan on this changing anytime soon... this is just the way our region has evolved...you should probably stay out of things you know nothing about... anyway, the buses are gone and bitching about them isn't going to bring them back | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1937 Registered: 10-2003 |
A bus that arrives once an hour, a total of six hours out of a day, requires an advance reservation, and charges $2 for the privilege, isn't exactly user-friendly. This service was designed to fail from the beginning. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 163 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Wazootyman your comment about why pay for something you don't use, really floors me." You're forgetting one thing...the city has been in the red for quite some time now, and a good part of why SMART was even on the ballot was due to saving money. In the minds of many fiscally responsible people, it's a waste to pay for a system that an overwhelming majority of the city does not and will not use. Period. I don't understand why that's hard to understand. Should we have busses running in Livonia? Probably. I'm all for helping out the less fortunate when I can. But why stop there? It's likely that many people who rely on the buses to get to work probably could use help with their mortgage, medical bills and heating costs. There's only some much taxation that your average citizen will tolerate. "What does that have to do with Livonia's lousy new bus service?" It's been said already - but how is it already declared 'lousy'? I doubt anyone on this board has ridden it, or has any intention to, and therefore can't speak for its quality of service. "Public Transit like police, fire, and EMS are esential services. There should be no vote. The service should just be provided." If you moved into Livonia expecting an urban, walkable environment that had excellent public transportation, you'd have chosen poorly. It's like moving into a house right by the highway and complaining about the noise. I'd also argue that police, fire and EMS are critical life safety services that the citizens of Livonia expect and pay accordingly for. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1938 Registered: 10-2003 |
Allow me to expound upon Wazootyman's post above. The democratic republican form of government used in the United States was not enacted so much as to ensure the wishes of the majority, but to protect the rights of the minority. Ergo, Wazooty's argument that bus service isn't necessary because the majority don't use it, is a crock. Here's something that a majority of people don't use: public schools. SEVENTY-FIVE percent of households in the United States do not have school-age children. Yet, this is the most significant expenditure by each state and local government. Perhaps we should just scrap them all. And, if as Wazooty argues, that Livonians accordingly cover the costs of police/fire/EMS, then WHY IS THE CITY IN THE RED? Surely SMART was not the only burden on the city's back, but rather just a very convenient scapegoat. In any event, the arguments laid forth by the anti-SMART folks only demonstrate why SE Michigan continues to languish compared to the rest of the country. It's laughable that so many people are willing to exclude tens of thousands of people from the local economy, then wonder why the economy lags. One need not look any further than his own smug sense of self-satisfaction. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3153 Registered: 08-2004 |
As a Macomb County resident, I want to say "thank you Livonia" for taking some of the stigma off of living in this county....  There may be a lot of Neanderthals living in Macomb County, but at least we have a majority of voters who agree that buses are a vital part of metro Detroit. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1241 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes, all of Macomb County pays into and is part of SMART. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 515 Registered: 02-2006 |
I do not think everyone in Livonia believes Livonia does not need buses. Some might just not have liked what they were getting for $2.8 million a year from SMART. Just because SMART is the only other option, does not make it the best choice. The vote was not to end buses in Livonia, but to opt put of SMART. Livonia has their own buses, and their own system. Only time will tell if they can run their own system better than SMART did for them. Like I said in another thread, Detroit has their own system, its no where near perfect, but no one is bitching about that. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1813 Registered: 10-2004 |
Before DDOT cut back on its service over a year ago, that system only got out about 70% of its scheduled buses on a daily average. Thnk2 is right about Detroit having its own much maligned, far-from-perfected system. Sometimes, two or three of the four #49 Vernor-route buses were not running, necessitating a wait of over two hours instead of its typical 30 minutes between buses. Psst. Maybe Detroiters could have its own ballot issue whereby they too could opt out of DDOT... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1939 Registered: 10-2003 |
I do not believe this is correct. If it were merely an issue of not realizing value from SMART, Livonians could have established their own, EQUIVALENT service. Instead, they chose to pare back to a "system" that has no chance of surviving. This new "system" was merely created so as not to raise the ire of folks who support transit. How dumb does the City of Livonia think people are? Soon, this new service will be canceled due to lack of ridership. It will be deemed "not cost-effective". When this happens, the service will be terminated altogether, leaving Livonia with no transit options, save for the DDOT service. When transit supporters complain about the lack of transit, they will be told, "We had a service, but no one rode it!" And I, for one, will not be the least surprised. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 364 Registered: 06-2006 |
wtf is with you people? Instead of bitching about what Livonia is doing, why not just stop coming here? Or better yet, pretend like Livonia doesn't exist...stop spending money here if you think Livonia needs you so badly...see if it makes any difference The bus system is done! Over! See ya later! And they aren't coming back, so either adapt to it or STFU!!! (Message edited by thejesus on November 28, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4769 Registered: 10-2003 |
Livonia will reap the negative consequences of these increasing decisions to wall it off and make it an island. In fact, it already is. It's a has-been sprawlburb. As bad as the quality of life is in some parts of Detroit, at least it has history to build off of. Livonia is not so lucky, and these moves (i.e. the cutting of SMART, the racist WalMart battle...) are signs of a desperate community that have come to the sad realization that its best days are far behind it. You want to bash Detroit incessantly? Fine. But take criticism of your own community like a man, or be treated like a child with a bad temper. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1941 Registered: 10-2003 |
You mean like this?:
| ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1820 Registered: 10-2004 |
"We are near the top of having the highest per passenger costs for mass transit in the World." That should be reason enough for instituting sane, sound fiscal management OR just doing away with costly, inefficient, ineffective, and underutilized mass transit altogether. And besides, it doesn't take any courage (just brains) for taxpayers/voters to vote their pocketbooks. Hint: Not everybody, especially in Livonia it seems, wants to jump into bed with socialists. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 365 Registered: 06-2006 |
LMichigan: I don't know what criticism of Detroit you are referring to, but if Livonia is really the horrible place you claim it is, then you should be happy that it's isolating itself, yes? Calling us racists, however, is NOT going to make us want to dish out $$$ for a bus system we don't use...you seem to lack the capacity to understand this, though... But go ahead and keep at it, and report back and let us know if you yield a positive result... (Message edited by thejesus on November 28, 2006) | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 366 Registered: 07-2004 |
These following facts are from the Canadian Urban Transit Association. And they can relate to Detroit very well. Also when they say Urban below, they also mean suburbs. I think Livonia residents need to be reminded of these facts. So read below and enjoy. --- -Public transit represents a valuable alternative to car use for most city dwellers. But it provides an especially critical link to opportunity for those who have limited choices—including the young, elderly, disabled and lower-income residents. Transit helps all urban residents participate in their communities, and lets them live life to the fullest. It gives them essential—and equitable—access to employment and education, and the freedom to shop and play where they choose. This win-win situation also benefits the businesses and institutions that would otherwise be out of reach for many potential employees, students and clients. -Transit is a quick, convenient and inexpensive way to travel. For people with disabilities, and those who are elderly, young or low-income, it means much more than a minute saved here or a dollar there. For them, public transit is essential and irreplaceable. It’s their key to health, advancement and happiness.    | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 270 Registered: 04-2006 |
The reason I lowered the per passenger costs of mass transit is because SEMCOG and MDOT officials said I’m a good talker but don’t take action. I’m not proud of this because God gave me the brains and legs to do this. I'm glad no one has destroyed my posts as of yet on this thread because we must all work together. Together We Stand, Divided We Fall Yes, we can bring back Livonia but it will take lots of work and we must convince our industries that workers deserve decent benefits and this includes good public transportation in my opinion. The demand for this is Livonia along Middlebelt road is quite high but you won't see this in the newspapers. You did see this at the bus stops around Plymouth and Middlebelt road before SMART left. This is proof that SMART officials did in fact took my website seriously. When they did, I went to many meetings to try and stop the possibility of our city opting out but my efforts were not enough. I tried to convince our regional and state leaders that I really do care and want to help others but it just was not enough. I did not support the opt out because I think that the funding for mass transit is best just left alone and if anyone wants to raise transit taxes then they should prove that they can lower the costs or improve service or get more industry support. Yes, we can have a great mass transit system but it will take lots of hard work and not a bunch of great mass transit speeches or more freeways but instead we must get industries to contribute more such as posting bus schedules and to work directly with transit officials. I proved this in Livonia. So before anyone bashes us in, think first because forty five percent of us wanted to keep SMART and I’m sure if our leaders listen that YES, Livonia will again have public bus service. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4772 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dan, of course. My post was in direct response to that. If you're going to dish out schitt, don't be surprised or get angry when you happen to get it in return. Livonia is going to get what it deserves. It always has, only this time it ain't going to be pretty. Watching Detroit's decline must have been sad, but watching the decline of a has-been suburb with little substance is going to be down-right pitiful. Metropolitan Detroit is barely growing, and it sure as hell already passed Livonia by decades, ago. (Message edited by lmichigan on November 28, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1822 Registered: 10-2004 |
Only a small percentage of the US, on an areal basis, is served by any public transit. What socialists deem as a right or necessary, others may deem to be unnecessary or financially unrealistic. The local Livonians voted. So you, by taking an opposing side, lost. Get over it! Let it go! Perhaps, we are not all "Catholics" and, thereby, not easily susceptible to guilt trips imposed by socialists who are sore losers (or, perhaps, just losers, in general). Somehow, I get the impression that if your type were ever in power in the US, you would do away with free elections because the voters might terminate your tenure. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 367 Registered: 07-2004 |
Trainman there should be no need for a vote to opt back into SMART for Livonia. SMART being a regional transit authority should not have to get a vote of "yes". It should be able to just levy the tax off Livonia property owners and start running the buses again. No "yes" or "no" votes allowed. Livonia is part of Metropolitan Detroit, and the buses should run in Livonia no matter if the citizens are to cheap to spend $60 bucks a year on their taxes or not, for regional transit. I told my co-workers in the office about this Livonia opt-out, and they where in shock. They where just taken back that people are even allowed to vote in a first world county on if to run public transit or not. As my co-workers said, in a first world country public transit should be a given, and no vote is needed. It should just be provided. What needs to be changed in Michigan is the bylaws or whatever they are called that allow for having votes on issues like transit. As far as I am concerned, the State of Michigan should step in and mandate full regional public transit across all of Metro Detroit with no opt in or out votes. And ontop of that mandate a merger of the City of Detroit with all its inner suburbs including Livonia. That would get some things fixed for once and show Livonia they don't exist in a vacume, but are part of really one city-region known as Detroit. (Message edited by miketoronto on November 28, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1824 Registered: 10-2004 |
Called that one right! | ||
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64 Post Number: 240 Registered: 11-2003 |
So I stand by my question from earlier, everyone seems to ignore it.. Why aren't you guys upset that other Western Suburbs are not in the system? Plymouth, Northville and Canton are not in the system. Should all the communities be MADE to be taxed for the benifit of a select few? I think not! Where is the outrage here? I am happy that Livonia took a stand against the bus. If people really want to get to Livonia and other Western Suburbs, then they should DRIVE! Why is Livonia such a big deal to those in this forum? If you think Livonia is evil, then don't come. (Message edited by commodore64 on November 29, 2006) | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 368 Registered: 07-2004 |
Plymouth, Northville, and Canton should also be taxed and have buses running down their streets. There should be no question about that. Commodore64 you don't get the point that not everyone can drive. Not everyone in glorious Livonia can drive either. Public transit in most cities moves not only people who can't drive, but choice riders also. But in Metro Detroit at the moment we have got to insure that non-drivers can get around before we work on choice riders. Non-drivers can not get around if different suburbs keep opting out. Thats why its a big deal with Livonia. I think it is alarming to be honest how you guys just think its great to strand people because they can't drive. I have a great uncle and aunt in Metro Detroit and I can see how the lack of public transit effects them. Now that he can't drive, its very hard for them to go out even to the mall without waiting for their kids to drive an hour to come and get them. And guess what, the senior shuttles that you have to book two days in advance are not always the best. Seniors in other metro areas just hop on a bus, go to the mall or where they need to go, and then come back home all without having to book two days in advance, etc. Plymouth, Northville, Canton, and Livonia need buses now, and they should be provided on a Metro wide basis and the vote issue should be settled by taking it off and not allowing people to vote on public transit. That is so stupid to vote on public transit. Do you think I vote every three years on if I want buses running by my house every 5min by the Toronto Transit Commission? No we don't. We know its a service that a city needs and it is provided. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 516 Registered: 02-2006 |
Miketoronto, All of the scenarios in your above post #366 are still covered in Livonia. LIVONIA HAS BUSES. Again, the vote was not to end mass transit(heh). It was to opt of the SMART bus system. I will agree with you on this:
Mass transit, not necessarily the SMART system. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1942 Registered: 10-2003 |
The 800-lb gorilla that the anti-transit (or anti-SMART, whatever) people won't touch is economic competitiveness. If Southeast Michigan continues to have deplorable public transportation, how do you expect the region to be competitive with regions that do offer good transit? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 366 Registered: 06-2006 |
MikeinToronto: You do understand that in America, the people govern themselves, right? You keep saying that the people shouldn't be allowed have a say in these issues...sorry, but there are no dictators here...the people decide what's best, whether you like it or not. If the bus service were really needed, then the people would vote to keep it...but since we don't, we voted to get rid of it And for your information, we DO get to decide for ourselves whether to have Police and Fire service...no one tells us that we must... (Message edited by thejesus on November 29, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1944 Registered: 10-2003 |
And let me guess--bus service isn't needed because YOU don't use it? I think people without cars or drivers licenses might take issue with your statement. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1825 Registered: 10-2004 |
The socialists reveal their ugly faces from time to time and also pout in desperation whenever events out of their control do not turn their way. Even the Scandinavians in Europe are now beginning to vote their own socialists out of power after enduring several decades of them. As I suspected earlier, the socialists would just as soon deprive others of their free choices whenever those choices do not mesh with their elitist attitudes. But again, they're Canadians... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1945 Registered: 10-2003 |
It sure is easier to call people names than to answer a question or make a solid argument with facts, isn't it? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 367 Registered: 06-2006 |
Danindc: You asked ME that question...not Livernoisyard... And to answer it, I (emphasis added) didn't decide whether to get rid of the buses... the people of Livonia as a whole decided to get rid of them because over 95% of us don't even use them... The people who used the busses are free to take issue with my statement...but a majority of us took issue with paying for a bus service that we don't use...so we did something about it... | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 517 Registered: 02-2006 |
Two different groups of people.
Do you mean like SMART buses vs. Livonia buses? | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 164 Registered: 02-2006 |
I really don't understand this argument. First of all, Metro Detroit's economic condition has almost nothing to do with its public transportation system or lack thereof. Given the issues in most communities, I'd say its not exactly top on the list of desired expenditures right now. I don't believe I've ever said that I was against public transportation. "I think it is alarming to be honest how you guys just think its great to strand people because they can't drive." Yeah, I think of it every day. I wake up with a grin on my face because I imagine that poor guy who can't get to work because he can't get transportation. It really keeps me going. Us Livonians are sick mf'ers. Please. On top of that, I'm really just plain sick of the constant Livonia bashing on this board. God knows there's probably just as much to say about Detroit, but I thought we were supposed to cheer on not only Detroit, but the region? For a city that boasts relatively low unemployment, good schools and city services, I just don't see its demise on the horizon. Some of you claim public tranportation is THE key to a thriving economy. So, then what's the story with Houston? Their bus system is just about as lousy and spotty as Metro Detroit's. Their "rail" line is about as useful as the people mover. Their sprawl is out of control and there's no true downtown to speak of. Yet, the region thrives. Why? Because of the oil & chemical businesses, which as of right now is thriving. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4776 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dan, they don't care about metropolitan competitiveness. I got mine, now go get your own. So, it's not an 8-pound gorilla, that is, until it walks up to them and rips their head off (i.e. collapse of Metro Detroit). BTW, the attention is on Livonia because of its size, and because of its age and location (i.e. inner ring). You'd expect the Troys and Cantons and Macomb Townships of the Metro to act in such a reckless, island-like fashion, but Livonia should have far more sense, and especially considering that its being increasingly passed by with newer communities with even lower taxes. If the citizens weren't so short-sighted, their community might have a chance of reinvention in a modern world, but they seem content with being stuck in the 60's, and thus will succumb to the same fates as municipalities that didn't move forward (i.e. most of inner-city and inner-ring America). In fact, it's quite obvious that it already is in many regards. Livonia citizens are voting against themselves out of ignorant desperation, and that's really too bad. As one of the older and original sprawlburbs, one would think it'd have learned from its own mistakes. But, then again, we're talking about a municipality that's just as often as backwards as Detroit can be on certain issues. They both represent and old-way of thinking that's not going to serve well for the future of this nearly stagnant, halted region. You want to act like and island, a municipality that exists within a vacuum, a community out of context? You want to believe that you're more important than Detroit or even Southfield or Troy? You want to believe that you are the whole of Metro Detroit, or completely apart from it. Fine. You'll be treated as such. (Message edited by lmichigan on November 29, 2006) | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 271 Registered: 04-2006 |
The reason Toronto has good public transportation and Detroit does not is simple and easy to understand even for those who have little knowledge of the transportation industry. In Detroit, SMART and DDOT costs too much thus the Michigan Department of Transportation just simply will not pay. We as voters were informed of this as this is public knowledge as required by federal and state laws. But, we have to know where these facts can be found. I want to debate the Transportation Riders United and challenge them to lower the per passenger costs because I’m sure they can work to do this but it won’t be easy. So, I want to help them. The idea of taxing fast food while allowing our state to spend billions of freeways and allowing SEMCOG officials to load their pockets with Millions of dollars for more transit studies and allowing transit officials to ignore the needs of industry just will not work, if we really want to compete to get good paying jobs to locate to our region. The real answer to make mass transit work is JOBS, and thats a fact. So, quote me on this and challenge me if you can. SMART will be returning to Livonia in 2010, if the voters want this. We can bring them back if we vote in mass transit leadership and work with transit officials to lower costs. I'm extremely sure that Livonia will opt. back in if the voters demand that our leaders and transit officials either look for another job or become much more capable of going out and securing the state and industry supports essential for metro Detroit to compete in the World marketplace. I'm finding this thread to be very interesting and am reading all the posts on this. If anyone is interested in working with me to improve mass transit, please say so because I want to go on television and debate MDOT, SEMCOG, SMART, DDOT and TRU. 2010 is when the next SMART vote comes up, so we need to get to work fast and make sure that SMART comes back to Livonia and expands to Canton and other areas that can benefit from a good cost effective public transit system. Detroit is a great city and can have a really great mass transit system if we want one. So, if any of you vote in higher taxes for mass transit then make sure that we really get one and not more promises. If you want to see the TRU get some competition on educating the public then please say so because I want to help them and you. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1895 Registered: 07-2004 |
You seem to be taking this personally Lmich.Livonia is doing fine.I don't say that to belittle your feelings but you really have little credibility when you make declarations that Livonia is heading to doom or Livonia thinks it is better than Detroit. Livonia was not content with the amount of ridership against the amount of money Livonians were paying; the opted for something else. My guess is that you feel what Livonia is doing is keeping black people out.I am not going to argue that point. but to say things about Livonia's demise when all one need do is look at Livonia and see that it looks today much like it did 25 years ago makes your argument shaky. Detroit has done plenty to alienate the suburbs or more on point to seem to alienate the burbs_ often for what Detroit considers good reason. Trying to sell Rackham golf course, the zoo debacle, the aquarium closing,the water issue_ it works both ways Detroit is not a blameless innocent bystander here. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4777 Registered: 10-2003 |
Citylover, I'm taking it the way I am because I'm tired of the double-standard that you can bash and be nasty with Detroit, but you aren't supposed to dish it back. And, your guess as to why I'm doing this is only partly true. In fact, that reason ranks far down on my list. My primary anger comes from the fact that Livonia has the potential, as an older, inner-ring suburb to reinvent itself and move forward, and it continues to openly minimize its potential simply to spite those that wish it would be more open. And, I think you said it yourself, "it looks today much like it did 25 years ago." Livonia should be much farther than it is and growing considering its infrastructure. When I speak of a decline I'm talking about a slow decline, and I'm not talking about a Detroit-styled abandonment-type decline, but a slow erosion that it could have prevented but continues to vote for, and there are plenty examples of this. And, no one ever said that Detroit is blameless. You need only to look at my last post where I'm just as critical of Detroit for it's often ass-backwards positions. My anger is directed a whole, stagnating metro who's overall future isn't looking bright save for a key few neighborhoods and communities. To paraphrase a famous line the metro will live together a brothers or parish together a fools. Unfortunately, it's quite apparent that the latter is more the case. It's like watching a slow-motion trainwreck from over, here, and my once youthful optimism for the region is being put to the test. Detroit isn't blameless, but this particular isn't about Detroit. | ||
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64 Post Number: 242 Registered: 11-2003 |
I wouldn't consider Livonia to be a "inner-ring" suburb. Remember, we have Redford Twp between Livonia and Detroit. I am glad some people are bringing up other western suburbs into the thread. I just don't see why all of the suburbs around us can opt out, and Livonia can not. Canton used to be in the SMART system years ago, but like Livonia, their residents did not want to be in it anymore. I think the reason why people are upset is shopping. Detroit doesn't have enough shopping, so it seems that the choice of many westside people is Livonia. No one from Detroit wants to go to Canton (other then IKEA), so the outrage is less. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1830 Registered: 10-2004 |
Why is it that the clueless consider Livonia to be worse off than the innermost of the inner-ring burbs like bankrupt Hamtramck or Highland Park. Or worse off than the posh, garden communities of the inner-ring burbs of Ecorse, Melvindale, or River Rouge? Or Detroit--mustn't leave out Detroit. And mustn't forget that Livonia has industry and jobs, which the above seem to be lacking, big time. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 |
There was a better way to handle this mess. I'd first like to point out that Farmington/Farmington Hills city council referenced its Bureau of Better Businesses group for data on employees using bus services to attend their jobs in Farmington order to make a decision regarding service, not querying the community about resident ridership as most residents have cars. If Livonia felt that Livonia residents were not benefiting from the service then the most appropriate actions would have been to drop the Park and Ride service on I-96 to downtown which directly serves Livonia residents, and drop the Community Curb-to-Curb service, then re-negoiate with Smart about maintenance costs for routes #285 Middlebelt Rd, #295 Plymouth Rd, and #305 Grand River. These are the routes not just used by Livonia residents but everyone in Southeast Michigan. Just the fact that these routes touched or crossed through Livonia should not have ment that they deserve elimination as every community in the SMART grid suffers from their loss. It even would be appropriate for SMART to run these routes at a loss because service disruption has been so significant its really affects about 35% ridership of the transit system by a city that was only less then 10% of its operational area. I would be much happier to pay a premium rate to ride a bus that crosses or touches Livonia in any way then to deal with the chaos and inefficiency this has caused many SMART bus riders. Even if I myself were not coming or going to Livonia, its the service disruption to the whole west side, not just getting to or coming from Livonia going on here. What needs to happen here and quickly before the transit system suffers more is to get Livonia and SMART back to the negotiating table. Im sure smart could accept the $500,000 Livonia wants to pay for public transit to provide the basic Line Haul routes. These routes as I mentioned before are a main stay of the whole SE Michigan grid network. From West Bloomfield to the Airport, from Farmington to Detroit, from Livonia to Detroit. These 3 routes provided everyone in SE Michigan access to anywhere in Livonia within 2 miles of there destinations. And anyone in Livonia access to the rest of SE michigan. !!!18 hours a day!!!   I would like to network with people who would be interested restoring these basic services. Please contact me at russix@gmail.com. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1949 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh yeah? 7/12/2005 Weak Transit Costs Metro Detroiters Dearly Region spends more on transportation than almost any other By Jeremy Babener Great Lakes Bulletin News Service The average metro Detroit family owns two cars and spends approximately $9,000 a year on personal transportation. What's the combined effect of high gasoline prices and a weak public transit system in southeast Michigan? High personal and family costs. Very high. That's the conclusion reached by the Surface Transportation Policy Project, a Washington-based transit advocacy and research organization. In a new study, Driven to Spend, the group found that in metropolitan Detroit, which is the largest urban area in the country without a regional public transit system, families spend a higher proportion of their household income on getting to work, school, shopping, and recreation than families in all but two other American cities — Houston and Cleveland. On average, according to the report, residents of southeastern Michigan spend one-fifth of their income on personal transportation needs. The STPP study found that people living in areas with poor public transit pay much more for personal transportation than those living in areas with good public transit. The study also noted that the transportation budget strain on family finances will only worsen as gas prices continue to rise and will disproportionately affect Detroit-area families because public transit options there are so poor. Those conclusions came as no surprise to Scott Anderson of the University of Detroit Mercy's Institute for Building Sustainable Communities. "Of course we spend more than others do," Mr. Anderson said. "There are no viable alternatives to cars in the Detroit area." Ben Korhman, the director of communications for the Michigan Department of Transportation, also agreed with the study's findings that gas price increases will hit Michigan citizens harder than most states because, both in Detroit and statewide, public transit options in all but a few cities are limited. He said that without better-maintained transportation systems — both highways and public transit — the problem would worsen. "It gives MDOT an incentive to reduce congestion," Mr. Korhman said of rising gas prices, "because congestion results in gas consumption." Delays Costing Metro Detroiters The study comes as metro Detroit's public transit system suffers through a barrage of bad news. The state Legislature and the Granholm administration have bled millions of dollars from the region's two bus systems, the result of the state's chronic budget deficits. And just last Thursday the state Appeals Court declared that a bid by Governor Granholm and county lawmakers to establish a regional transit agency without Legislative authority was illegal. In 2002, in one of his last actions in office, former Republican Governor John Engler vetoed a Legislative bill that established the Detroit Area Regional Transit Authority, and Republican state lawmakers in 2003 declined to approve a subsequent bill. State Senator Buzz Thomas, a Democrat, responded by promising to reintroduce legislation vetoed almost three years ago by then-Governor John Engler that would establish a regional transit agency for metro Detroit. The result is that working people have enormous difficulty getting around without a private vehicle, and traffic congestion remains severe. Meanwhile, the STPP report also add to the growing pile of evidence that southeast Michigan's inability to embrace Smart Growth development principles is pushing the entire region into deeper economic trouble. Michigan has the highest unemployment rate in the nation, while the Detroit region is the slowest-growing major metropolitan area in the country and its roads are among the most congested. The STPP study indicates that installing quality regional transit could actually save many southeastern Michigan residents thousands of dollars every year. Driven to Spend says that families living in metropolitan areas with well-developed bus or rail systems spend nearly 50 percent less on transportation than those living in areas without it. The study also found that a family with two or more automobiles — typical for many Detroit-area households — that spends 20 percent of its income on transportation can reduce that figure to 10 percent by using public transit frequently and eliminating at least one vehicle. An average metro Detroit family, according to the report, spends approximately $9,000 a year operating two cars. Driven to Spend found that 96 percent of metro Detroit commuters drive to work. Only Kansas City outranks Detroit in its portion of auto commuters. Unlike Detroit, however, Kansas City will open a new Bus Rapid Transit line this month. In fact, Detroit is alone among the nation's largest metropolitan regions in just how feeble its efforts to improve public transit are. Nearly 30 other metropolitan regions across the country have built new light rail and bus rapid transit lines since the late 1980s, according to the Federal Transit Administration. Nearly 70 others are in the design and construction stages. But the Detroit region's history of trying to improve its public transit system largely involves drawing the bare outlines of fixed rail or bus rapid transit lines, and then allowing the plans to languish so long that they fail to gain significant traction in the political or business communities. The result is that, while the seven-county region's population has grown by just 100,000 people since 1970, the vehicle population during that same 35-year period increased by more than 1.6 million. Republicans Point to Free Markets Meanwhile, Democrats and Republicans remain far apart on remedies that could reduce congestion and boost southeastern Michigan's economy. Governor Jennifer M. Granholm, a Democrat who ran on a Smart Growth economic development platform, has struggled with the Republican-led state Legislature over what direction the state should point its economic development efforts. Just weeks after her inauguration, Governor Granholm and state Republican leaders launched the bipartisan Michigan Land Use Leadership Council, and asked for recommendations that would curb sprawl, preserve the state's resources and open spaces, and build a sustainable, 21st-century economy. The Republican leadership has acted on a number of the council's recommendations, but it has been more steadfast in its pursuit of tax cuts for businesses, sharp limits to state financing of public transit systems and other urban projects, and economic development strategies that generate more sprawl. Soon after his election as speaker of the state House, for example, Craig DeRoche, a Republican from Novi, publicly proclaimed that he "represents sprawl." Jason Brewer, the spokesman for House Speaker DeRoche, said his opposition to public transit is driven by a sense that public transportation violates Mr. DeRoche's free market ideology. "Our citizens have the choice, but they choose cars," said Mr. Brewer. "We have no need to build new public transit. More public transportation has not been built because the government responds to the needs of its citizens, and those citizens choose cars." Other members of that party's leadership also strongly oppose state support for building a quality, regional transit system in metropolitan Detroit, including State Senator Shirley Johnson, the powerful chair of both the Senate Appropriations and Transportation Appropriations committees. They, too, essentially argue that almost everyone prefers driving. Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson, also a Republican, is less adamant; he decried the appeals court decision to nix the multi-county attempt to establish a regional transit authority. But he also said that transit funding should remain at modest levels. In an interview with the Great Lakes Bulletin News Service, he said he believes that Michigan does not have "quite enough" public transit. "We will have to play catch-up," Mr. Patterson said. But, he added, he does not think that public transit is a top priority: "The market simply doesn't demand it." Many See Need, Strong Public Support for Transit But Governor Granholm and Democrats in Lansing and Detroit assert that building a modern, regional public transit system in southeastern Michigan is crucial to the area's success and, by extension, the state's. They point out that one third of Detroit adults do not own cars and therefore lack a reliable, or even tolerable, way to get to the suburbs, where most of the region's jobs are. "Better public transit is critical to moving the region out of economic stagnation and on to prosperity," Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, a Democrat, told the Michigan state Senate several years ago. "The number one reason people don't have economic independence is not education, but transportation." And Tom Barwin, city manager of Ferndale, a suburb on Detroit's northern border, rejects "free market" arguments like Speaker DeRoche's. "Public transit decisions are dominated by a handful of partisan and ideological Republican politicians," Mr. Barwin said. "The state Legislature misperceives what the public wants." Calling market-based arguments against transit "a self-fulfilling prophecy," Mr. Barwin added that many of Michigan's elected leaders simply choose not to build public transit and literally force citizens to purchase cars. Then, as demands for more and wider roads increase, the same leaders claim that it this is because the public always prefers driving. Transit policy experts also reject claims that there is no market for public transportation in Michigan, and say they have the numbers to prove it. Despite significant service reductions that stem from years of budget cuts that have reduced the state's annual local bus budget by $95 million a year, ridership continues to grow for many systems. In the past three years, for example, SMART's ridership increased 25 percent; it now stands at 10 million riders per year. Dan Dirks, SMART's general manager, said many buses actually turn riders away because they become filled beyond capacity. And citizens are voting for transit with their wallets as well. Officials of local bus systems point to the near-perfect election record that systems around the state gained last summer. Fourteen Michigan communities asked voters for tax support for their local bus systems and 13 approved them, most by near-landslide margins. Mr. Barwin said the state should allow regions to tax themselves regionally, in new ways, to pay for transit. He proposes a state constitutional amendment that would allow local areas to use sales taxes to build transit systems of any sort, including bike paths, bus service, or even a rail line, as long as voters know exactly what they are voting on. Many transit advocates in the Detroit area agree; they believe a well-organized campaign for a regional transit tax could succeed. Jeremy Babener, a student at Haverford College, is spending the summer reporting and writing on the Michigan Land Use Institute's news desk. Reach him at jeremy@mlui.org. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 165 Registered: 02-2006 |
Perhaps reading the report they reference would be a valuable exercise: Top 10 "% of Household Expenditures on Transportation": 1. Houston, 20.9% 2. Cleveland, 20.5% 3. Detroit, 20.5% 4. Tampa, 20.4% 5. Kansas City, 20.2% 6. Cincinnati, 20.0% 7. Anchorage, 19.9% 8. Dallas-Fort Worth, 19.7% 9. Phoenix, 19.6% 10. Miami, 19.6% While I'll agree that these are all very high, it's interesting to point out that: 12. Seattle, 19.0% 18. Boston, 17.2% 20. Chicago, 16.9% 26. New York, 15.4% They all have from what I understand to be excellent public transportation. So, based on the $9,000 figure in the article, we're paying $658.54 more a year than Seattle, or $2,239 more a year than New York. Factor that in to the cost of living. According ot the American Chamber of Commerce Researchers Association, the following are some of the cheapest places to live (index based out of 100): Houston, 90.2 Dallas, 95.8 Phoenix, 103.8 Detroit, 104.1 Chicago, 111.9 Boston, 133.6 New York (Manhattan), 201.2 Somehow or another, we're still pretty well off, even with our transportation costs. It's interesting to note that Houston is #1 most expensive to drive, yet the most affordable in the nation for living. I AM NOT AGAINST PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. However, I'm just trying to say that it seems to have little effect on the regional economy. I'm certain that the struggles in our primary industry have overwhelmingly more impact. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 370 Registered: 07-2004 |
Wazootyman is not that simple to say that people in more transit friendly cities are saving only a little compared to Detroit. First of all, if these stats are Metropolitan wide, then that is a big issue, because outside of the central cities, public transit sucks even in places like Boston. In Boston you will have a hard time getting a bus after 7PM in most suburbs. That means most people still need to have cars. Same goes for NYC. NYC has great transit, but the suburbs of NYC have poor transit that basically just works for commuters going into the city, and nothing else. That is why they may only be spending 5% less on their transport bills. You also have to factor in that even in transit rich areas, families still own cars just use them less. Most transit systems like the ones in Portland rely on choice riders who have cars but use transit for some of their trips. So while these people maybe don't need so many cars, they still own them even if they don't use them. I know many people like that here in Toronto. They have cars, and yet the car sits parked for an entire month at a time, becuase the are always using transit. But for some reason they still hold onto the car. So you have to take those factors into consideration. Also the reason Houston and places like that are so cheap compared to transit friendly places, is because Houston is not as desirable. I can tell you first hand though that having good public transit does save families money. Here in Toronto where public transit is good even in the suburbs, you can see families have less cars. Infact the average family has one car. My own family has saved thousands thanks to transit. My two sisters and myself always use transit, and our parents never had to buy cars for us, as we just relied on transit. All 99% of my friends also don't have cars. Their parents have no need to worry about buying them and financing cars, when there are buses going by our homes every 5min. This alone saves families thousands a year. (Message edited by miketoronto on November 30, 2006) | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 40 Registered: 07-2006 |
Miketoronto, you raise some excellent points. I can reinforce what you say by noting that in New York City, many people still need cars. When people think of New Yorkers, they often think about Manhattan, which does not even have one-quarter of the cities population. In the other boroughs, public transportation is not as well situated, especially in outer Queens and Staten Island (where I am from). In those areas, you basically need a car to get anywhere. And even in Manhattan, many people do not own cars, but those tend to be older people and people living in New York as students, or young professionals, or "hipsters," wanna-be theater actors/actresses, artists, etc. I would guess that of more permanent residents in Manhattan, a large percentage own a car, even if they do not use it very frequently. Several other factors may also increase the cost of transportation in New York. For example, NYC has quite high insurance rates. Moreover, for those who do use cars in Manhattan, parking can be very, very expensive ($450/month for a spot is somewhat common and parking for 8 hours in most Manhattan lots will cost about $40, depending on the area). In places like Houston, parking costs virtually nothing. Lastly, gas prices are a bit higher in the northeast than in some other regions of the country, like Texas. These factors, increase the percentage of money people spend on transportation in New York (and to some extent, Detroit, too). Since so many different factors can affect the cost of transportation, one factor, like public transportation, cannot be evaluated on its own. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 373 Registered: 07-2004 |
All I know is thousands of Livonia teens and young adults could have thousands more dollars sitting in their pockets if they did not need to own cars the min they turn 16. (Message edited by miketoronto on December 01, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1950 Registered: 10-2003 |
My out-of-pocket after-tax transportation costs are $300. Per year. I'd like to see a Detroiter come close to that. | ||
Hugo8100 Member Username: Hugo8100 Post Number: 16 Registered: 06-2006 |
Your transportation costs are only that low because you are selfishly leaching off of others. You want all the benefits of mechanized transportation but are unwilling to pay for it. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1951 Registered: 10-2003 |
Off whom am I leaching? Since when is it considered selfish to not own a car? What--I'm selfish because I choose not to spend thousands of dollars a year on something I don't need? All I'm doing is taking advantages of resources afforded to me. I think my history of paying thousands of dollars a year in taxes illustrates that I am willing to pay for transportation. Get over yourself. | ||
Hugo8100 Member Username: Hugo8100 Post Number: 17 Registered: 06-2006 |
Danindc, You are leaching off of all the people who have their money taken away to provide for your transportation. Of course you are taking advantage of resources afforded to you. That's just self interest and there's nothing at all wrong with that. What is wrong, is that you are gloating that your transportation costs are subsidized by the money taken from others and that you are advocating this transfer payment scheme. The only fair way to distribute the costs of public transportation is to raise the fares to make those that utilize it the only ones to paying for it. Otherwise it's just some people living at the expense of everyone else. Your willingness to pay taxes means nothing. Your willingness to pay a higher fare means everything. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 670 Registered: 02-2006 |
LOL, that's certainly a new way of looking at it. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 445 Registered: 04-2006 |
Admit it Dan, you've been known to hop a turnstyle or two. Do you ever fly? Do you ever take a cab? Do you ever take a long distance train or bus? Do you ever rent a car or chip in with others to rent one? If so, I can't see you spending $300 in transportation, unless you don't have a job (independantly wealthy) and live next to a grocery store. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1953 Registered: 10-2003 |
When you start figuring these same costs into the costs of owning your car, I'll count them as part of my regular transportation costs. It's unbelievable how out-of-touch and brainwashed some of you are. Detroit is the exception, folks, not the norm. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1836 Registered: 10-2004 |
"You are leaching off of all the people who have their money taken away to provide for your transportation. Of course you are taking advantage of resources afforded to you. That's just self interest and there's nothing at all wrong with that. Hugo: You could have saved time and effort by just calling Dan (in the people-friendly DC vacation favorite venue) a **bleeping** socialist. But of course, for the past three decades or so, these big-government types would prefer that you refer to them as "progressives." There's no real difference, but "progressive" sounds better--less bitter taste in one's mouth after hearing it. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on December 01, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1954 Registered: 10-2003 |
Another perspective. The Portland Streetcar is not to be confused with the MAX light rail system. And Homer Williams, the developer quoted in the article? Well, he must be a socialist! November 29, 2006 The Little Trolley that Could…and Did Grand Rapids leaders inspect Portland’s streetcar-powered revival By Andy Guy Great Lakes Bulletin News Service Since Portland announced its new streetcar route, developers have built approximately $2.8 billion in new condos, commercial space, and other projects within two blocks of the trolley line. PORTLAND—Five years after opening the first modern streetcar system in North America, Portland is a furnace of redevelopment and economic expansion, according to Homer Williams, one of the city's leading developers and, until recently, truly a trolley skeptic. "This place is on fire," said Mr. Williams, a principal at Williams and Dame Development, which maintains offices in Portland and Los Angeles. "Look at all the cranes in the city. Outside of two or three exceptions, it's all because of the streetcar." A quick look around this bustling Pacific Northwest town confirms Mr. William's claim: there’s Oregon Health and Science University's $103 million Center for Health and Healing on the banks of the Willamette River; the Strand, $95 million worth of condos, townhouses, eateries, and offices rising in the form of three modernistic towers; and the $65 million Fox Tower, a 28-story office building complete with a built-in cinema. In all, since the original streetcar route was announced in 1997, developers like Mr. Williams have stoked Portland’s economy with approximately $2.8 billion in new condos, commercial space, and other redevelopment projects. Remarkably, all are located within two blocks of Portland’s new, 4.8-mile, downtown streetcar loop. And the developer hardly sees that as coincidence. "We have about $1 billion of new development going on in the city right now," Mr. Williams said. "And we wouldn’t be doing about $750 million of it without the streetcar." Now, as a delegation of civic leaders from Grand Rapids, Mich. heads here to study how Portland’s trolleys sealed this town’s stunning comeback, their journey again raises a crucial question: When will the Great Lakes region’s many fading cities, particularly Michigan’s, see investing in transit as necessary for restoring the region’s once-boundless prosperity? Many civic leaders there now acknowledge that vibrant cities are essential to competing successfully in the world economy. But, despite strong voter support for local transit, many still view mass transit not as a crucial economic development tool, but as an expensive, big-government social service for getting poor people to work and old people to the doctor. Early this month, for example, the Southeastern Michigan Council of Governments released a presentation asserting that an envisioned rapid commuter rail line between Ann Arbor and Detroit would not attract enough users. The transit-wary Detroit News editorial page trumpeted the study, while the transit-friendly Detroit Free Press edged away from rail, suggesting that buses might best span the 40 miles separating the two cities. Transit advocates criticized the presentation, saying it lacked publicly available data to support its conclusion. Success Formula A handful of common denominators today define America's most successful regions. Portland. San Jose. Chicago. San Francisco. Phoenix. Denver. Seattle: College grads and high-tech companies regularly cite these metros of means as choice destinations. All have vibrant urban hubs with parks, public art, and round-the-clock entertainment. All embrace cultural diversity. And all are building or expanding mass transit systems in order to stimulate private development and give people more affordable and convenient options for moving around town. Slowly but surely, however, as places like Portland soar, and cities across the Great Lakes region continue to de-industrialize and decline, public opinion in cities like Detroit and Grand Rapids is pulling well ahead of official wisdom about cars, highways, buses, trains, and railways. "Transit is not a popular issue," said Congressman Vern Ehlers, a Republican who represents greater Grand Rapids and advocates strongly for transit. "It's just not viewed as important. Despite all the good work from citizens, churches, and local officials, lawmakers just don’t see value in it." The arrival of the Grand Rapids delegation tomorrow indicates that more leaders are paying more attention to what Representative Ehlers and transit proponents are saying. Like most Great Lakes cities, greater Grand Rapids has lost thousands of manufacturing jobs. It is mounting an aggressive revitalization campaign to better compete in the knowledge economy, and officials want to evaluate a proposed streetcar route in their downtown, one that is similar to Portland's. They intend to learn how Portland’s leaders planned, funded, and constructed their “downtown circulator.” A Rail Renaissance What they'll find on their visit is a city undergoing a stunning, streetcar-driven renaissance. Thirty years ago, the City of Roses looked more like the cities of the Rust Belt. Underused industrial property and highways obstructed the waterfront along the Willamette River, just as they still do along Cleveland's Lake Erie shoreline. Vacant commercial property plagued the urban core, just as it still does in desolate Gary, Ind. Urban living was a daring choice to some people, just like it is today in Detroit. Then, Portland’s civic leaders decided to get serious about mass transit. They killed a new highway in the late 1980s, built a light rail connecting the suburbs to the central city in the early 1990s, and, in 1997, publicly announced a 2.4-mile, $56.9 million streetcar system. The original route was specifically designed to accelerate revitalization and circulate people into and out of major downtown hubs such as Portland State University and Good Samaritan Hospital. Initially, local developers like Homer Williams were among the disinterested if not skeptical stakeholders. Mr. Williams worried the proposed streetcar project would generate noise, scare off prospective condo buyers, intensify traffic congestion on narrow city streets, and diminish property values in the central business district. Today, however, Mr. Williams is an eager streetcar booster. He credits the streetcar with ramping up demand for downtown housing, increasing property values, and improving mobility for residents and commuters. His firm even decorated one new building with a giant neon sign that encourages people to "Go by Streetcar." "In many ways, it had the exact opposite effect from what I expected," Mr. Williams said. "If the average [city] block is selling for $3 million, that block would be $4 million on the streetcar line. One block off it would be about $3.5 million. Two blocks off it would still be over $3 million. So there's been about a 35-40 percent bump in value on the streetcar line." In fact, 55 percent of all development in Portland’s central business district during the past decade has occurred within one block of the streetcar route, according to city records. And the city today regularly ranks as one of the most attractive, sustainable, and economically competitive places to live in the United States. ‘An Amazing Tool’ There are plenty of examples from other cities of the power of streetcars. Little Rock, Ark., opened a 2.5-mile route in 2004 at a cost of approximately $20 million and already has experienced more $1.2 billion in new development. Tampa's 2.3-mile, $56 million streetcar system, opened in 2003, already has leveraged $1 billion in private investment. And Tacoma's $89 million streetcar system, opened in 2003, already has generated nearly $1 billion in redevelopment. But Portland's own popular Pearl District offers the most graphic illustration of the streetcar's power to transform blight into bounty. Once a polluted and abandoned rail yard, the 70-acre site immediately north of downtown is now a thriving new neighborhood complete with grocers, restaurants, galleries, and boutique clothing shops. The streetcar route cuts through the middle of it all. "Ten years ago, there were one or two restaurants [in the Pearl]," Mr. Williams said. "Now there are probably 40. There might have been a couple of hundred people living here. Now there's thousands. Frankly, I didn’t have that high of expectations." The South Waterfront is Portland's next big thing. Currently under construction and scheduled for completion in 2015, the redevelopment of the old shipyard is projected to add 10,000 jobs, 3,000 housing units, and 250,000 sq. ft. of ground-level retail to the central city. Anchored by Oregon Health and Science University, the South Waterfront is the largest economic development project in Portland's history and—like electricity, water, and roads—streetcar tracks are already installed as basic infrastructure. In all, since announcing the initial phase of the streetcar system, Portland has added thousands of jobs, more than 7,200 new housing units, and 4.6 million sq. ft. of office, institutional, and retail space. What's more, the city has become a magnet for young workers, the new economy’s most coveted commodity. "Portland is one of the top in-migration locations for 18 to 34 year-olds in the country," said City Commissioner Sam Adams, who refers to the streetcar as "an amazing economic, environmental, and social improvement tool." "Talented people have many choices of where they want to live," Commissioner Adams added. "If you can't offer them a vibrant, creative city you're not going to attract or keep them. And if you don’t have that resource in your community, you're not going to vault into the top tier of competitiveness in the new economy." Ridership is perhaps the most accurate indication of the Portland streetcar's success. It also offers a vivid example of just how far off the mark surveys—including, perhaps, the one SEMCOG is using to wave off rapid rail in metro Detroit—can be. Before officially going on line in 2001, transit managers projected the system would carry 3,500 riders a week. More than 9,000 riders were riding the line each day by the fall of 2005. Now city leaders are planning to expand service. When they do, Homer Williams suggested the development business is guaranteed to heat up even more. "The next step is to bring it to the east side [of the river] and loop it back around," he said. "It's all about connecting the city." And, frustrated transit advocates in Michigan would say, it’s also about connecting the dots. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 446 Registered: 04-2006 |
I factor those things into my transportation costs Dan. They are legitimate transportation costs. Commuter based? nope. Multimodal transportation? yep. I did not mean that as a slap Dan, only that $300 seems awfully cheap ($25 a month). Does your employer give you commuter bucks (a tax free benefit)? Do you have a local sales tax that helps pay for transit? How much of your property tax subsidizes transit (a huge chunk of my income a nd property taxes are tied up into DDOT's $80-100 million share of the general fund.) I own a car chiefly for my conveyance between my two homes. There are no buses, trains or airplanes that would get me to West Branch, MI. Heck once I'm there without a car, its like prison. A pretty laid back sort of prison, but getting to a store is a 12 mile trek! I've riden a bike to the store, but the 40 percent grade at points, 500 foot hill can be brutal to climb after a while. If you think the costs of car ownership is high, just imagine if you are a farmer in 1890 and have to rely on horse and buggies to get around! Modern transportation of all modes makes time spent travelling much shorter. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 671 Registered: 02-2006 |
I spend about $1,500 a year on transportation in Chicago. This includes: Metra pass - post tax ~$40 (pre-tax $58) CTA Chicago Card (for non-commuting trans.) - $20 Gas for car (for out of city trips now and then) - $20 Car insurance - $50 Car payment - $0 | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 370 Registered: 06-2006 |
Danindc keeps diggin himself a bigger hole... ::shakes head:: | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 448 Registered: 04-2006 |
$20 for gas and $50 for insurance... a year??? I assume you mean monthly costs : ) When my sister moved to Chicago I laughed at the guy who told her she could get her car insured for $35-$50 a month at the check cashing place. Then I found out it was true and became depressed. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 377 Registered: 07-2004 |
What I think is bad is that LIVONIA is still eating off SMART. Livonia's community transit's main goal is to hook up with SMART and DDOT. It is in no way designed to serve "Livonia residents" as they make it sound. If Livonia wants out, that they should not be able to even hook up with SMART at all. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 378 Registered: 07-2004 |
What I think is bad is that LIVONIA is still eating off SMART. Livonia's community transit's main goal is to hook up with SMART and DDOT. It is in no way designed to serve "Livonia residents" as they make it sound. If Livonia wants out, that they should not be able to even hook up with SMART at all. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 371 Registered: 06-2006 |
Mike: You just disproved your whole argument... Livonia just doesn't want to pay for the service, so they aren't...if they really just wanted to keep black people out of the city like many of you claim, then they wouldn't even link to SMART and DDOT...but they are... | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 379 Registered: 07-2004 |
See what happens when suburbs provide proper transit. Click on this following link then on the bottom right click on "view video-transit improvments". Lets see Livonia provide transit like that. http://www.mississauga.ca/port al/residents/publictransit | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 527 Registered: 02-2006 |
Miketoronto, Now you are comparing 70,000 riders per day with MAYBE hundreds a day.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20061128/M ETRO01/611280322/1006 | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 277 Registered: 04-2006 |
The problem with the Livonia opt out is that in southeast Michigan is that we now rely almost entirely on property taxes to pay for bus service. I'm sure that if we raise the state fuel tax high enough that we could fix SMART and DDOT but the other states would all have to raise the fuel tax also or Michigan will lose more jobs. We could support a penny or two increase but our political leaders need votes and this is a good way to not get them. We should all work together to help lower the per passenger costs so we can have a transit system much more like the one in Toronto. Also, we should protect the fuel tax for mass transit to encourage better use of our limited tax dollars and look to proven industry support such as where I work which supported SMART before the Livonia opt out but does not anymore. Turning away multiple tax mechanisms and industry support for mass transit is not smart but stupid. So, if SMART does not come back to Livonia or fight to protect state or federal funds and does not get more money from area businesses, are we really smart to vote YES next August 2010? There is no time to waste on this. We must all stop driving everywhere and help out SMART and DDOT and vote in mass transit leaders in Lansing. Or, again for the fourth time we will all pay more and get less bus service. We have voted to increase taxes three times and continue to accept bus service cuts as a given because of state transit cuts and higher labor costs. This can change and we can move forward to improve mass transit. But it will take strong, compassionate and moral government and industry leadership to do this. If you want Livonia back then remember the 45 percent of us that voted to save SMART. YES, we can do this but it will take lots of work thus I think we should lobby to get the area businesses to connect the large corridors together with bus service instead of relying only on property and other tax increases. When someone is willing to pay a tax increase for mass transit it does not mean they are an advocate for improved transportation choices or service thus I publicly challenge our government leaders and civic groups to a debate on channel 56 public television. In Livonia, we now pay much more and get less. So, ask yourselves this. Is this what you want for your city also? If not, then take action and speak out against high government costs and the abuse of the handicapped and poor. I'm not just talking about this but I'm taking action myself because I want to help others. And, if I can't help others then why bother to even try and work to improve mass transit? You tell me. So, next August 2010 get out and cast your vote. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 380 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thnk2mch the reason there is not 70,000 riders, is because Detroit suburbs are cheap and will not fund a proper transit system that provides service to all residents. That is why suburbs should not be allowed to opt out or in. Service should be provided metropolitan wide, and provided equal to all residents of a metro area. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 529 Registered: 02-2006 |
o.k. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 280 Registered: 04-2006 |
MikeToronto. The suburbs would pay if our state invested in mass transit the way Ontario does for Toronto to the best of my knowledge from going to public meetings and talking with people. A poll from APTA shows that about 70% of the people are willing to pay more for mass transit and there is evidence that this figure is quite accurate for the Detroit area. The loss of bus service in Livonia is a result of state cuts and not city cuts. In 1994, the state fuel tax paid for my bus service and now I'm asked to contribute at city hall. Unfortunately, my property taxes has replaced the state money instead of being used to invest in new technology and more bus service where needed most. Most of the taxes Livonia paid for bus service went to Detroit and the other suburbs as opposed to state revenue sharing as was supposed to be the case but then things changed and our state just did not have enough money to provide equal service to keep the transit system intact. I told SMART official that I'm willing to pay more to keep the bus service but the loss of revenue sharing has greatly weakened my case to promote mass transit. I'm hoping that industry can do more to get Livonia and other cities to opt back in at this time. Maybe in a year or so the industries in Livonia will see a loss that they did not expect with the loss of SMART which I'm sure will happen and hopefully there will be enough support to work together on a regional level so metro Detroit can get more public bus service for our limited transportation tax dollars. MikeToronto. In my opinion, our state leaders are making a mistake by not investing in mass transit, So, I want to get people to vote in those who will protect existing needs as essential and make those who want more roads pay more. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2006 |
Originally from Lapeer County which is still semi-rural and not difficult to find a helping hand for a ride as many can relate to living in a bedroom community. When I first moved to the area in '97 there was a period of time when I relied on the Smart Bus and Detroit system for transportation. Main thourofares such as Woodward and John R. ran twice or more on the hour but mile roads were a difficult transsfer. I agree with the posters who praise the Toronto transportation system. I decided to settle in Royal Oak-Ferndale area because of its central location. The issue of mass transit, like many issues in our society are more complicated than they appear on the surface. Political and social apathy on the part of the polity; racial fears and antagonisms; city-suburb antagonisms; libertarian economic views; funding; environmental issues; history etc. all need to be considered. |
