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Hustler strip club in Detroit - 1Supersport104 11-24-06  7:15 pm
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Michmeister
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Username: Michmeister

Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 2:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Living in Europe, I get to hear criticism of the prudish morals of the American public.Although things may be changing, it seems to me that this is a case of someone trying to save another from himself. Let`s see it the way it is- Larry Flynts name will forever be equated with sleaze because he changed "Magazines for Men" into published gynocological check-ups.If these are establishments that are well run, clean and law-abiding then why should the council stand in their way? Morals is a funny subject-especially from church groups who love preaching in the lords name but when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it`s "Well, we are only human too".There comes a time where we should let everyone be human and let the individual practice what he/she thinks is right.If the parents think they need to go to Hooters with the kids, sounds kinda freaky to me, but wtf, I`m not taking my kids there.These are decisions that mom and dad have to make on their own.IMO Larry Flynt is a creep who hides behind the Constitution instead of standin up for it, but that is no reason for denying the permit because the courts said he has the right to publish or do what he does ,how he does it.That makes him law abiding and as long as he abides by the law, any effort to block his endeavors is denying his freedom as an American to do as he pleases.As for the child care centers, I hardly think that they have conflicting opening times.So, it`s time for me to get off of my soap box.
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Yvette248
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Post Number: 199
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"If these are establishments that are well run, clean and law-abiding then why should the council stand in their way?"


So, if I'm understanding your post correctly, you are asking why city council should care what type - or how many businesses of that type - operate in their city???

Hmmmmm. I can't imagine why.....
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Fnemecek
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Post Number: 2112
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If there was any correlation between the operation of Business A (to use the most generic example) upon either the quality of life for those who live nearby or upon other businesses in the area then the City Council would have a valid cause for tightly controlling the operations of Business A as well as any other businesses like it.

However, and this is the important part, there is no evidence to support such a conclusion. In fact, all of the evidence points to almost the exact opposite conclusion; that such businesses have no impact on either quality of life for residents or on neighboring businesses.

The opposition to transferring the liquor license to the Hustler Club is thereby grounded in nothing more than a moral objection to strip clubs in general. Individuals are always entitled to their own opinions of what is moral and what isn't. However, they're not entitled to impose said opinions on the rest of society, which is what the Perfecting Church is attempting to do in this case.
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Michmeister
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Post Number: 16
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People, that is why there zoning laws, or don`t they exist anymore?
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Smogboy
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Post Number: 4030
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would this even be as big of an issue if it were a generic strip club as opposed to a Larry Flynt Hustler strip club?? I know there would still be opposition but is the furor more over the fact that Larry Flynt wants to be in our neighborhood??

(Message edited by smogboy on November 25, 2006)
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

D.C. has a Hooters a couple blocks from Verizon (formerly MCI) Center. Great for lunch and great for sports fans who go there before Verizon Center events.

Very popular.

A Hooters in the area by CoPa or a possible new hockey arena would be in keeping with developing entertainment area.

It would need to be in area convenient to lunch hour patrons as well.

It would provide competition for Hockeytown.
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Ray
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Post Number: 829
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, here's how out of touch I am. I just figured out this year that prostitution in Windor is legal! This is amazing. How come we don't have more convention business with this? Nobody in America knows that you can come to Detroit and have legal prostitution (just over in Canada). Shit, this is what we need to attract conventions. Flys on fucking honey. And, it's like a special bonus the vice doesn't actually occur on our fair shores.

I am glad the strip club will not be in downtown. It's just tasteless more than a question of morality.
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Justbeamensch
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Post Number: 48
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2116
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I am glad the strip club will not be in downtown. It's just tasteless more than a question of morality.



Okay - if you don't want a third strip club operating in downtown Detroit then all I ask is that you reimburse the rest of us for the tax revenue that it would have generated.

We can't hire enough police officers or do many of the other things that we need to do because of the City's budget constraints. If you want to impose your tastes on the rest of us then cough of the cash.
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 1702
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Okay - if you don't want a third strip club operating in downtown Detroit then all I ask is that you reimburse the rest of us for the tax revenue that it would have generated.




Exactly. Most of the strip clubs where I live (South Bend) were forced to close recently when their liquor licenses were not renewed.

The buildings now sit vacant contributing nothing to the city's tax coffers and add to the blight of the neighborhood.
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Supersport
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Post Number: 10907
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ya know what? Perhaps I don't want a church on every goddman corner in my city! Perhaps I find THEM to be tasteless and a type of organization that tries to push their beliefs upon everybody else, including those who's religious beliefs are drastically different. How much money are the churches downtown bringing in for the city? Oh, that's right, they don't pay taxes. Since they don't pay taxes, I propose that we ban any churches from existing in the CBD. They can all be replaced by strip clubs that will pay taxes, employ 150 or so, and draw people to downtown.

I have to wonder whether there is a single person on this thread who actually lives in the downtown area who is opposed to this. Or whether it's just a bunch of outsiders looking in trying to say how things should be done in Detroit.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A bunch of outsiders looking in. It's the internet. World Wide Web.
Discussion Board open to everyone.
You seem angry, Supersport.
I'm new here. Hi.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 7175
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He's only angry when you go after his strip bars, Kath.

Welcome!


Sport,
That was a good one...owe you a beer next time I see you before you see me.

Cheers!
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1733
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Ya know what? Perhaps I don't want a church on every goddman corner in my city!



Isn't it the same argument either way?


quote:

Perhaps I find THEM to be tasteless and a type of organization that tries to push their beliefs upon everybody else, including those who's religious beliefs are drastically different.



...and the attempt to stereotype all Christians as being identical goes on...

I don't mind being persecuted. It's part of the deal. (And no, I don't have a persecution complex.) I'd just prefer that if I'm going to be persecuted for my religion, that it be for something legitimate, and not because other people calling themselves Christian acted like asses to you.

Peace. Out. And So On.
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Yvette248
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Username: Yvette248

Post Number: 205
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just wondering when did he become owner of the whole d@mn city? Maybe if he went to one of those d@mn churches, he wouldn't have such a potty mouth.
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 1703
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I was just wondering when did he become owner of the whole d@mn city? Maybe if he went to one of those d@mn churches, he wouldn't have such a potty mouth.




When did you become the omniscient suburbian?
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the welcome, Gannon.
Last visit to Detroit the Booby Trap *snicker* and the other ones on 8 mile were still open, so Supersport still has lots of entertainment options.
I think the places are silly.
People think that women are exploited there, but really it's the men who are made to look foolish by giving tons of their hard earned money away to women who are just teasing them. Sheesh, silly little boys!
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Jasoncw
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Post Number: 298
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like the kinds of downtowns that are very family friendly. Someday, I'd like downtown to be the type of place that parents wouldn't mind their kids being in. That kind of feeling of gaurenteed safety.

Downtown needs more nice old ladies, not strip clubs.

But I do agree with Michmeister.

And I also think that these types of places have a place in the city, but I don't think they should be downtown. There are a lot of neighborhoods that this could be put in (I don't think anyone wants it across the street from them), but we only have one downtown.
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Supersport
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Post Number: 10908
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Isn't it the same argument either way?




Not at all. You have a business that already has a license to operate, it simply needs to be transferred to the new owner. It's not like this is a new strip club coming into downtown on a new license.

Then, you have the church, which for some odd reason get's representation WITHOUT taxation, so much so that it strong arms the city quite often with their own personal beliefs as to what is best for the city, with the city often caving.

I don't mind churches existing, I don't mind people whom are extremely religous, what I DO have a problem with is when they try to spread their belief onto others like it's the plague. The city government has a city to run, they had planned another vote recently, but it was put off for another month due to the church influence.
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6nois
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urg, give me strippers any day over nice old ladies and family friendly.Switching notes, Why aren't there any gay strip clubs downtown? Or gay bars in general?
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Supersport
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Post Number: 10910
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gay bars and gay strip clubs? There is a child day care near by, churches, and the fact that gay places aren't family friendly. :-)
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Yvette248
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Post Number: 208
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I became omniscient the day I moved to suburbia. Now bow down and call me Supreme Master!
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Outoftowner
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think there are some people on this forum who are simply jealous they would not be able to get a job at Hustler's club. As far as these establishments go, Hustler's is one of the best. It's clean and well-managed. Detroit would get some of the traffic that is going over to Windsor. That H. could move to Detroit is the best news I've heard all month.
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Magnasco
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well they won't move in just yet. Council voted against the transfer of the license as far as I could tell.
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Supersport
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Post Number: 10912
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Either city council will come to their senses and cave, or a costly/lengthy court battle will make it happen. As I see it, they have absolutely no grounds to deny it.
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Llyn
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sport, I understand. It's unfortunate in my mind that churches are so involved in politics. It's one thing to, say, protest war. It's another to force your beliefs on others. Some elements of institutional Christianity and current (American) Christian culture have learned little since the middle ages.
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Fnemecek
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Post Number: 2117
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And I also think that these types of places have a place in the city, but I don't think they should be downtown. There are a lot of neighborhoods that this could be put in (I don't think anyone wants it across the street from them), but we only have one downtown.



Beautiful!

Jasoncw, doesn't wants them in the neighborhoods instead of downtown. Others will undoubtedly say that they shouldn't be in the neighborhoods because that is where children live, play and go to school.

I repeat me earlier challenge.

Everyone who objects to the very principle of a third strip club operating in downtown Detroit, please cough up the cash to reimburse the rest of us for the tax revenue that your personal tastes are costing the rest of us.

I did some quick calculations.

Jasoncw, Ray and Justbeamensch each owe the City of Detroit's Treasury the sum of $41,667 for lost non-resident income taxes (assuming 125 jobs - out of the 100-150 promised).

While you're at it, you each also owe the State of Michigan $390,000 and the IRS $500,000.

Cough it up!

Oh, and that's just for the first year that this club would have been in operation. If a suitable replacement isn't found within the next 12 months, you should be prepared to write another round of checks.
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Supersport
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Post Number: 10916
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

singlemoms
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Tetsua
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ Needs to be a T-shirt. LOL
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Fnemecek
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Post Number: 2118
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LMAO!!! I totally love that shirt.
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Gannon
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Post Number: 7212
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Saw that in vinyl sticker in the back of a huge SUV...laughed my ass off for a whole day.

It still brings a smile...
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Smogboy
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Post Number: 4039
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uh Tetsua...it IS a tshirt! Just go to tshirthell.com and look at some of the other less that PC shirts listed there. Be prepared though- it pushes the envelope of taste at times.
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Fnemecek
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Post Number: 2121
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Be prepared though- it pushes the envelope of taste at times.



That's like saying Karl touts the GOP's ideology at times.

I get the feeling that those guys wake-up in the morning and ask themselves, "How can we push the envelope of taste even further than we did yesterday?"
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Supersport
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did ya see the KKKramer t-shirt?
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Justbeamensch
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Post Number: 53
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fenmecek, one thing seems clear at the moment. It's not coming, and your not going. Cheer up, you can always cruise 8 mile.
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Citylover
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemecek. sorry if I spelled it wrong and with little respect because I am quite sure you will respond with one of your bitchy comebacks.........spare me.

You live in a city where crime runs rampant, all kinds; murder, robbery , burglary you name it Detroit is at or near the top.Where the city administration for decades has had a bloated work force afraid to challenge the unions in any meaningful way.Where the city council members are paid a salary that can only be described as obscene based on the condition of much of Detroit and the job done. And you demand that those that might oppose a Hustler club pay because this means perhaps more police on the street? If the city administration i.e. the mayor wanted more police on the street he would have gotten tough and eliminated dozens of jobs other than police officers.Don't say it can't be done .Because if Detroit goes into receivership or whatever Michigan has you will see how quickly things can be done_ a pruning of sorts.

No city wants this.It is not a moral thing neccesarily.Of course there are strip clubs all over .But most of them are in poor area's, blue collar area's are out of the way_ not in a once major downtown.

But perhaps because Detroit or Fremencek is desperate anything will do. Many cities have higher standards having nothing to do with forcing morals on anyone.
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Supersport
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh look, another outsider telling us what is wrong with our city and what it needs to do to meet their standards....yawn.
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Jasoncw
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Post Number: 299
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not like the insiders want it in their backyard either.
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Kathinozarks
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Citylover,
AMEN!
Why don't the fine people of Detroit step up and say NO to anything that is just below the standards?
What standards you say?
Well, the good standards of the majority of property owners who dwell in our fine city.
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Chow
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with Frank on this one. It is a legitimate business that pays taxes. It would be located within a rising entertainment area, in which there is a need for an upscale strip joint (its a package with casinos).

Seriously, if you are morally opposed to a strip club, do not give it your patronage. Quite honestly, the BIGGEST thing this city needs is jobs. Give the people a steady job with a steady paycheck and crime, schools, retail etc. will all fall in line.
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Citylover
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If that were the case chow strip clubs would be in every city.It is not a question of legitimacy it is what the majority of society has determined to be a standard which they will not compromise.This is why you will not find strip clubs in Grosse pointe or Birmingham or Chelsea or the downtown of most big cities.I don't care who goes to strip clubs.I am simply pointing out that there have been many ways Detroit could have tried to solve it's money woes. Resorting to "any legitimate business" is a desperate way to go.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 1:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always have to laugh at how "Puritanistic" and uptight about sex Americans still are after all these decades.

Europeans don't view nudity or sex as though it is sleazy or dirty. You can go to the Airport shopping mall in Frankfurt or Amsterdam and find a porno shop. You can find adult entertainment at the Follies Bergeres and Moulin Rouge in Paris. You can go nude in the Englischer Garten in Munich (their Central Park). And guess what... there's no excess of perverts or sex crimes over there...

But good lord if a strip club (the label we give it even makes it sound sleazy) wants to open up in downtown Detroit...

I guess Americans still have a loooooooong way to go, sexually speaking!

(Getting off my high horse now...) :-)
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Supersport
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown is a playground, always has been, always will be. The fact that people are living their in increasing numbers need to realize this as well. I have many friends living down there and their biggest complaint is the clubs. Not a single one has a complaint about the strip clubs. The dance clubs are the ones responsible for sleepless nights when the bass is still thumping long after midnight on a weeknight. The dance clubs are the ones creating traffic congestion from gawkers who stop in the middle of the road to talk to people outside the club. The dance clubs are also responsible for nearly every shooting that takes place downtown.

You want to create a better atmosphere for the people living downtown, go after the dance clubs. They are the source to most of the trouble downtown.

An upscale strip club would create a problem? Perhaps some people need to spend a weekend outside the 2 existing strip clubs. They will realize that the worst trouble they create is the occasional patron getting tossed for getting outta hand. The difference being, they don't come back and shoot the bouncers like they did at a dance club a few nights ago.

You mention "new strip club" and people hit the panic button. You mention "new dance club" and they don't think twice about it. There have probably been close to a dozen murders near strip clubs since I've moved here, and numerous shootings to go along with them.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Fnemecek, one thing seems clear at the moment. It's not coming, and your not going. Cheer up, you can always cruise 8 mile.



Will "cruising 8 Mile" bring in the $2.8 million in tax revenue that we're losing thanks to the ignorance of a few individuals?

quote:

Why don't the fine people of Detroit step up and say NO to anything that is just below the standards?



Okay - cough up the $2.8 million in lost tax revenue.

quote:

No city wants this.It is not a moral thing neccesarily.Of course there are strip clubs all over .But most of them are in poor area's, blue collar area's are out of the way_ not in a once major downtown.



First things first, you really need to spend more time in other major cities throughout the U.S. and Canada. Log off your computer and go spend some time in NYC, Chicago or Toronto.

You'll learn a lot.

Like that New Yorkers have strip clubs not poor areas, but in Time Square; one of the most high profile areas of their city.

Folks in Toronto can go to a strip club on Yonge Street - one of their most prominent streets with lots of other businesses nearby.

And in none of those locations will you find any negative impact on the surrounding businesses or communities. Your assertion that other major cities relegate these business to only "the poor parts of town" is simply not true.

quote:

Resorting to "any legitimate business" is a desperate way to go.



Who said "any legitimate business"?

I advocated welcoming any legitimate business that does not have a detrimental impact on either other businesses or the surrounding community. Strip clubs do not have any such detrimental impact. They just generate jobs and tax revenue.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 1894
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.reason.com/news/sho w/30183.html


http://www.pervscan.com/2005/0 6/19/stripping-becomes-big-bus iness-in-manhattan/
http://www.reason.com/news/sho w/33805.html



Here are a few links that dispute your contention regarding times suquare.Ironically the laws used to prohibit the clustering of adult venues were patterned on Detroit laws.


The difference is that in ny they want to get rid of these places because they don't neccessarily need them; you want this in detroit because of the revenue it might bring. What I am saying is there have been plenty of things detroit could have done and haven't or won't for whatever reason.
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Supersport
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Repeat after me:

WE DON'T WANT DETROIT TO BECOME ANN ARBOR!!!
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Fnemecek
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Post Number: 2131
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The difference is that in ny they want to get rid of these places because they don't neccessarily need them; you want this in detroit because of the revenue it might bring.



No, in New York they are attempting to better regulated them: ensuring that there is a certain amount of distance between the clubs (500 ft.) and that there is a healthy mix of non-sex related businesses in the area (the 60/40 rule).

Even if the existing license was transferred to the Hustler Club, downtown Detroit would exceed the minimum standards that the New York requires.

* Even if the Hustler Club were to open, only 1.6% of all retail based businesses (retails stores + restaurants & conventional bars) in the Central Business District would be of a sexual nature - compared with the 40% limit that New York mandates;
* None of these venues would be operating within a 1,000 ft radius of another such venue, a church or a school - compared with the 500 ft. radius that New York mandates.

Please explain how having higher standards than New York is going to jeopardise Detroit.

And, while you're at it, where's that $2.8 million that you owe us for this year's tax revenue?

(Message edited by fnemecek on November 29, 2006)
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Citylover
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spare me.As I said I personally don't care.Honestly I have such little faith in the people runnning Detroit that I don't care.My tax money is spent in my home town (Ann Arbor) where for whatever reason the need to generate revenue has not resorted to strip clubs.

And again you mislead but that is your m/o if they could the people in charge of nyc would send every strip club to the far reaches; the courts have prevented this.

So forget the idea of anyone including me owing you a damn thing.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And again you mislead but that is your m/o if they could the people in charge of nyc would send every strip club to the far reaches; the courts have prevented this.



You might want to read the links that you posted.

The only thing the courts did was uphold New York's standards. They did not alter or dilute them.

Instead of throwing around empty accusations, how about if you attempt to explain your assertion that Detroit is somehow harmed by having a standard for strip clubs that is higher than New York's but not as high as you would like?
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Citylover
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I said I don't care.The point I am making is that you seem to be resorting to any, as you put it legitimate business. If Detroit had businesses clamoring to be there then you would not have to resort to a strip club. Sorry but it aint my standard it is a standard that the majority of our society has.

If strip clubs are so damn desirable why are there none in Birmingham or Grosse pointe or Hillsdale or any of dozens of towns and cities in Michigan?
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Eric
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can't compared to Detroit to some much smaller city. If strips club are so damn bad why is HC able to operate in the downtown of cities that are more highly regarded that Detroit? Just look San Francisco, a world class city if there ever were one, I mapped the location it looks to be near if not in Chinatown. One of city's biggest tourist areas. I can't imagine the fit that'd be thrown by some if they suggested locating it closer to Greektown.

Seems to me that you and others have absolutely no clue about the "standards" other major cites. The truth is that other major cities have no issues them as long they aren't too clustered, near schools, etc

http://www.google.com/maps?hl= en&lr=&safe=off&q=hustler+club &near=San+Francisco,+CA&cid=0, 0,748159499578696573&ie=UTF8&z =15&ll=37.800154,-122.404046&s pn=0.017938,0.028925&om=0
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Supersport
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You obviously DO care, you keep coming back telling us how Detroit will burn in a firey hell if one more strip club pops up downtown.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Sorry but it aint my standard it is a standard that the majority of our society has.



That's the second time you have asserted that the majority of society does not want strip clubs to exist. What is your source?

quote:

If strip clubs are so damn desirable why are there none in Birmingham or Grosse pointe or Hillsdale or any of dozens of towns and cities in Michigan?



For starters, Grosse Pointe only has a population of 5,670 as of the 2000 Census. Birmingham only has 19,291. Detroit, even with its dewindling numbers, has a population of 886,675 as of 2005.

Add to that the fact that neither Grosse Pointe nor Birmingham have a major sporting venue, which frequently draw in clientele for strip clubs.

Bottom line: neither Grosse Pointe nor Birmingham is capable of supporting a strip club therefore the owners of said clubs aren't interested in building there.

Plus, neither Grosse Pointe nor Birmingham have a non-resident income tax. Therefore, they would not realize any of the tax benefits that Detroit stand to realize.

Now that I've answered your questions, will you answer mine?

You previously inferred that Detroit is harmed by having standards for strip clubs that are higher than most other major cities (such as New York) but that still aren't as high as you would like. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?
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Supersport
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It should be noted that both Grosse Pointe and Birmingham have "talent" that should be working in the strip clubs. :-)
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Citylover
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Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That really does not answer anything.The question is really rhetorical. Ypsi has a couple places, southgate did at one time I don't if it still does I believe there is still a place out near the old Eloise on Mich ave..............none of those places much in the way of population being much closer to Birmingham and the pointed then to detroit. The reason is obvious and simple they need the money.And begrudgingly so in the case of ypsi where Deja view has had a heck of a time being taken seriously as a benevolent member of the business community.And there are certainly no major sports venues near downtown ypsi. so..............

We come back to the question of compromised standards and desperation as advocated by you.I don't think I can make it any plainer I don't care.I won't be out picketing if Hustler opens downtown.I won't be writing letters to city council. I won't do a damn thing. I do think that it is too bad and too sad that this is what you are reduced to in order to enhance revenue.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

We come back to the question of compromised standards and desperation as advocated by you.



No, it comes down to logic and evidence versus blatantly making stuff up.

You, sir, are the only one with compromised standards or desperation.

(Message edited by fnemecek on November 30, 2006)
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Supersport
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think he meant "Citylover standards."
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Justbeamensch
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the help of the Ferndale PD, Deja Vu was kicked out of Ferndale several years ago rather than face litigation and the neighborhood improved because of it. The Magic Bag came in with a viable business. Is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
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Fnemecek
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Post Number: 2137
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

#1. There is no established correlation between Deja Vu leaving and any improvements in Ferndale. Ferndale also has a low crime rate, excellent schools, a strong committment to mass transit, well-maintained parks and an impressive track record of delivering basic city services. All of those things have a proven track record for improving the quality of life and economic vitality of a given community. Therefore, there is no way that you can establish that the Ferndale's current vitality is because of Deja Vu leaving.

If I wear blue pants and jump into a pool, does this mean that wearing blue pants caused me to get wet?

#2. If there was a correlation to having a Hustler Club in a given community and the resulting quality of life and/or the general health of said community, why isn't San Francisco suffering?

Or Baltimore?

Or New York City?

Or New Orleans?

Or San Diego?

Or Cleveland?

Really, now! How many times do you have to hit a wall before you have to realize that it is there?
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Royce
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are two constants in this issue that are viewed by people in totally different directions: strip clubs and Larry Flint/Hustler. In one corner, they are perceived by many as not being associated with positive values. In the other corner they are perceived as having the right to exist in a free society so they should be welcomed.

Say "strip club" in front of a bunch of men and you get a bunch of "yeas." Say "strip club" in front of a bunch of women with children, and church goers and you get a bunch of "nays." Say Larry Flint and Hustler and you'll usually get the same reaction from both above groups.

Politicians serve both of these groups, and so it's hard for them to take a stand on these issues because which ever way they vote they are going to upset the other group. That's the situation in this case. The Detroit City Council knows that there is no legitimate reason not to grant the transfer of the liquor license to the Hustler Club. However, they have the members of Perfecting Church and other citizens of Detroit telling them not to grant the transfer.

What are they to do? Well, basically what they are doing, stalling the vote until the courts can make the decision so that they won't have to. That way they save face in front of both opposing groups. They can always say on record that they voted against the transfer(satisfying Perfecting Church), but their hands we tied because the courts forced them to grant the transfer.

No politician in public wants to say on camera that they support strip clubs. That's like a person admitting in public that he/she picks his/her nose. However, what happens behind closed doors is always a different matter, isn't it?

(Message edited by royce on November 30, 2006)
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

No politician in public wants to say on camera that they support strip clubs. That's like a person admitting in public that he/she picks their nose.



In spite of that, 3 members of the City Council members voted in favor of the transfer - including the one who was the highest vote-getter in the last election.

Since then, at least 1 of the opposing members has indicated that she wants to change her vote; essentially creating a 4-4 tie on the Council.
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Supersport
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Royce hit the nail on the head. I feel the the CC knows they will lose, but certain members want certain people in society to know that they are on their side. We'll see how it all pans out, but sooner or later I think you'll see the transfer take place.

Royce,

You still feeling like somebody took a baseball bat to your body? That football game is STILL kickin' my ass!
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Royce
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SS, today is the first day that I can lift my legs without grimacing in pain. However, I'm still sore from the bumps and bruises I incurred, but it was worth it.
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Supersport
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hahaha, I felt like I had arthritis from hell for the first 3 or 4 days. I'm still slightly sore here and there, but it no longer hurts to get up from a seated position. That was definitely a shock to my body.

When warm weather breaks, I say we give it another shot more often. I'd even pondering joining Bobzilla's league next year.
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Magnasco
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe there were several local church higher-ups who showed up at the session where the vote might have been reconsidered. Turns out that person didn't want to reconsider their vote after all.
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Citylover
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok.So if anyone were to ask the residents of Ferndale or the police they would say they were sorry to see Deja vu go?

Justbeamenchs's post saying directly that the Ferndale pd helped kick deja vu out means what?....that they (pd) did not care they were just doing it for kicks, that they found Deja vu a nuisance?

The fact is, is that most an overwhelming majority of citizens do not want strip clubs.
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Supersport
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Overwhelming majority in this state struck down proposal 2, does that automatically make them racists?

I'll give you the fact that perhaps a majority don't want a strip club. Yet the overwhelming majority don't like a lot of things, it's often like a bunch of sheep. Instead, why don't you prove to me that there are constant troubles outside the two strip clubs downtown? Prove your point, instead of talking outta your ass saying that they attract trouble. Fact is, you're probably 100x more likely to get shot standing on Woodward Ave in front of your choice of dance clubs.

You've lost touch with what a big city is like, just as so many others in this region have.
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Citylover
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont' care to prove whether there is trouble in any establishment downtown. I never stated anywhere that they attract trouble.You and I don't know what the likeliness of anyone being shot is anywhere; that is just a guess on your part_ although alcohol would be a major factor.

As for proposal 2 I don't think it was an overwhelming majority but beyond that there is not comparison categorically speaking.

My point has been and still is that it is too bad that thru the years the people running Detroit the Mayors and council and police have not done the unpleasant unpopular things neccessary to face fiscal reality.Other cities not nearly as bad off as Detroit have. So you and Femeneck are reduced to advocating for a business that most of your neighbors don't want.Why would you advocate for something most don't want?You have acknowledged that most don't want it yet you still advocate it..why? What kind of a neighbor does that make you?

As for what a big city is like.I don't like saying this but Detroit is unlike any other big city.I remember when Detroit was a typical big city and it is not that way now.
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Magnasco
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fat chance of getting shot in one, I believe that the on-duty police are usually helping keep an eye on the facility from the inside. For work purposes only of course.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

So you and Femeneck are reduced to advocating for a business that most of your neighbors don't want.Why would you advocate for something most don't want?



OH, DEAR GOD!

Again with inventing facts to fit your argument? Again?!?

It wasn't enough for you to try changing how New York regulates its strip clubs. Now, you have to act like you are the ultimate mind-reader, who knows what Detrioters are thinking even though you don't live here.

I'm afraid it's time to put your money where your mouth is. I propose a simple wager.

You and I can walk the streets of Detroit; talking to business owners and residents near the proposed Hustler Club. For every person who says that they don't want the license transferred, I'll give you $2.

However, for every person who either has no strong opinion or who supports having such a club, you have to give me $1.

Even though you'll have a 2 to 1 advantage over me, I strongly suspect that I'll end the day with a lot more money in my pocket than you.

Put up or shut up.
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Citylover
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What business do you own or run in that area?
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Something other than a strip club.
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Citylover
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Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The question should have been do you own a business in the area in question? And if so is it frequented by the public? But be that as it may I won't be coming to engage in this bet with you.

Perhaps a more accurate measure of the merchants in the area would be to ask if they had a choice would they prefer the Hustler club another business or no preference.

For the heck of it I looked up very generically strip clubs and neighborhood reactions.The fact that people feel so strongly is indicative of how volatile and divisive strip clubs are. There were various opinions.Almost all agree that they have a right to exist.But almost every municipality tried to discourage strip clubs. Those are not the responses one gets when a new clinic or gas station or highrise is proposed.

As I said I don't care.I don't judge others for going to strip clubs.I do think that advocating for any legitimate business is a desperate measure. And most if given the option would rather not.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And it is so darn ironic that it's the folks who DON'T live in Detroit who are telling Detroiters what is that we want.

And it is also interesting that every time I disprove one of your assertions, you move on to something else.

There are two simple, unavoidable facts in this whole discussion.

#1. Strip clubs, if properly regulated, do not have a negative impact on either neighboring businesses or the surrounding communities.

#2. For as long as there has been clothing, there have been people taking clothing off for the entertainment of others. The locations where that happens have always had a place in large cities.
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Kathinozarks
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Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

#3 Cocaine use is higher in strip clubs than in churches. :-)
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Justbeamensch
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Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's up to the folks that live downtown or its proximities whether or not they want Mr. Flynt's club in their community, not some overpartying drunken yahoo yuppies from Shelby Twnshp who only piss in their alleys.
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Yvette248
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Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen.

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