  Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 348 Registered: 07-2004 |
The following information is from Livonia. Starting Nov 27, 2006, Inplace of SMART buses there will be this sad attempt at transit service. It should be noted that SMART buses ran all day long till late into the night, seven days a week in Livonia. Look at the new service. What a disgrace. Ontop of that I think Livonia should pay some sort of fee for SMART service, considering they are hooking up with SMART in another suburb. ------- Livonia Community Transit ATTENTION ALL SMART AND DDOT BUS RIDERS IMPORTANT INFORMATION REGARDING LIVONIA COMMUNITY TRANSIT Bus transportation for the employees of Livonia businesses will begin November 27, 2006. This new bus system will provide transportation from the current DDOT stop at Millennium Park (I-96 and Middlebelt) OR the current SMART stop in front of Botsford Hospital (Grand River and 8mile), to various employers within the City of Livonia. These are the only two places you can transfer from a DDOT or SMART bus to Livonia Community Transit. The bus will pick up and drop off at these locations every hour on the hour from 06:00am to 09:00am and from04:00pm to 07:00pm, for a flatfare of $2 per trip. * The bus will drop you off at a pre-determined location as close as possible to your employer. Round-trip service will be scheduled as needed, so you must call 734-466-2700 or 866-466-2022 for reservations, or enter your information below. *For pre-scheduled trips only.Non-scheduled trips are $3 each way($6 round trip), and will only drop-off at a pre-scheduled destination. Transfer fares will be accepted. --- Now look at this transit map from a suburb that is about the same size as Livonia. Buses run seven days a week all day and evening long. Look at that, and compare that to Livonia. http://cms.burlington.ca/AssetFactory.aspx?did=3659 (Message edited by miketoronto on November 04, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1670 Registered: 10-2004 |
It's been some eleven hours (obviously not a very hot topic locally, even for the weekend...) and nobody yet responded to the OP's bitching. So, I'll proffer my $0.02... For most first-shift workers riding to Livonia from the DDOT/SMART stops, the additional cost per week comes to $10 (5 x $2). Unless the worker is a total friendless prick, some coworker would offer a ride on the way home. For those disappearing second or third-shift dinosaurs still remaining, it would seem that these buses would be making round trips, so that at least it might be possible to take those buses to work for first-shifters and homeward for any even fewer third-shifters. Based on my limited transportation engineering I did in the early 1980s, I knew that a goal that was sought was to receive 1/3 of the operating (not total) costs via the cashbox (i.e., fares). However, today most municipal bus systems are lucky to get 10 to 15% of the operating costs through the cashbox. The other costs are the capital costs and debt service involved, among many others. So stow the pissing and moaning about Livonia's providing bus transportation at a substantial cost to all its property taxpayers for the benefit of very few of its own residents. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 06, 2006) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 |
Livonia's own bus system!! Great another transfer; just what the bus riders wanted. Add another hour to your bus trip from Detroit to Livonia??? Metro D isn't getting any closer to a regional transportation system I see... | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3157 Registered: 10-2003 |
This will not last long.... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 319 Registered: 06-2006 |
Find a source of funding other than the pockets of Livonia residents and Livonia would be happy to let you implement whatever transit system you want... But if you can't pay for it, quit crying to us that what we're providing isn't adequate... Beggers can't be choosers.. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3160 Registered: 10-2003 |
Like I said... This wont last long at all... | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 427 Registered: 08-2006 |
Trainman, hasnt your forum topic that you like to discuss finally evolved? | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 149 Registered: 02-2006 |
How was there already not a transfer? I imagine it was a transfer from DDOT to SMART, now it's from DDOT to the Livonia system. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2006 |
Wise proverb we all need to reflect upon in this region: No man is an island. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1214 Registered: 11-2003 |
Screw Livonia, one less reason to go there. Wait I never do anyways. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1673 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Screw Livonia, one less reason to go there." Bob, it's one fewer reason. You're a teacher, you know. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 63 Registered: 04-2006 |
"How was there already not a transfer? I imagine it was a transfer from DDOT to SMART, now it's from DDOT to the Livonia system." Unless, of course, you happen to live near a SMART stop in Detroit... | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 248 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'm the one who got SMART to come to Livonia on my own and increased rider ship. I now want to defeat the SMART property tax in 2010. A majority vote of NO will only cap this tax. It is illegal to defeat this tax to shut down SMART or to eliminate any transit jobs according to federal ADA and Civil Rights protection laws. SMART only came to Livonia because of my actions by filing a complaint against them and defeating the unsuccessful attempts to increase property taxes up to 3.5 mil to fully replace the state tax on fuel. I filed another civil rights complaint and I want to see the SMART tax permanently capped until they come back to Livonia and coordinate their routes with DDOT. It was the lack of coordination between SMART and DDOT and the DARTA supporters that primarily caused the opt. out. Those who support DARTA have openly rejected industry supports as an option and will not protest the funding shift from transit to roads which is well known and making even some of the most transit supportive people quite doubtful that we will see any significant improvements to really justify more local funds. The DARTA agreement was illegal primarily because it does not protect the union transit jobs with state funds in the form of an operating budget. This was well known and caused many Livonia residents to vote NO to save SMART. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 815 Registered: 06-2004 |
What is it with mass transit and Detroit? You often hear its because of the auto industry. I went to Japan last year to visit an OEM. At the complex I visited, there were about 10,000 employees (mostly white collar) and approximately 85% of them went to work via MASS TRANSIT. Gosh, it strikes me that use of mass transit in Japan hasn't thwarted the development of that nation's automobile industry. Driving home from DTW, I could help but mourne for my community. Our culture is so fatally flawed and our corporate and political leadership are jackasses. (Message edited by ray on November 12, 2006) | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5187 Registered: 02-2004 |
Livonia Public Transit HAHAHAA!!!!! They would be SO SORRY for opting out from the W.C.T.A. and SMART their sloppy buses won't even run 24 hrs. Trying to create their own personal Nazi Germany by proving their own not so cheap transit system will not increase ridership. So give it up Facist Livonia, surrender to Democracy of public transit. Trainman, The SMART fuel tax proposal is pass and DONE. You can make a appeal to the highest courts in nation, but it won't do any good due the people's choice. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 253 Registered: 04-2006 |
Yes, it will. Livonia will and can opt back in if SMART transit officials have any brains. Forty Five percent of us wanted to keep SMART and I'm sure if SMART gets more riders that Livonia and many other communities will join SMART. Danny, Mass transit does work but it takes large investments and a strong commitment from both business and government. I work for a company that is a member of the Detroit Regional Chamber and also did much work to save SMART. It was my efforts that largely saved SMART from going bankrupt and I'm very serious about bringing SMART back. I'm looking for people to debate me in public and also I want more supporters for my cause because I can't save SMART and mass transit alone. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 258 Registered: 04-2006 |
It's been nearly 48 hours and no replies. It appears that people in this forum all drive cars except for a few and they likely do not not use bus service in Livonia. I drive a car and I care about the handicapped and I want the Michigan Department of Transportation to pay for them. If any of you really think city hall is the answer for mass transit then you are wrong becasse it is not. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 217 Registered: 10-2006 |
"I drive a car and I care about the handicapped and I want the Michigan Department of Transportation to pay for them." In Cali, we have 20 passenger vans that move handicapped people. Just call them, they'll come get you. Free. Lots faster than a scheduled bus. In the SF bay area, we have a population equal to the entire state of Michigan. So building BART and the bus lines that feed into it and goes places BART doesn't, makes sense. Detroit Metro, declining population, job base, tax base, almost every measurement going backward, that's not an environment for billion dollar transit programs. I wish it wasn't like that, still have family there, but those are the facts on the ground. Your bus system is going to be mass transit for the forseeable future. If and when Metro Detroit finds something to replace the auto industry, then it's possible. My 2 cents. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5230 Registered: 02-2004 |
Trainman, Getting the Livonia City Council to bring back the SMART buses into their streets is like getting the Jewish Council of Berlin to beg Hitler not to wipe out their race. You could take them to the Michigan Supreme Court and appeal your case against Facist Livonia City Council to allow the SMART busses back into their streets. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 260 Registered: 04-2006 |
Danny, It is the responsibility of the Michigan Department of Transportation to fund SMART and NOT city hall. A NO vote only caps the funding of SMART and does not shut it as protected by federal laws. Livonia still pays the same tax as surrounding cities because of this and Livonia is required to provide the same service. Obviously they can't and YES the voters of Livonia are quite stupid as opposed to being SMART. Remember that 45 per cent of us wanted SMART and the extremely poor DDOT service and lack of efforts to coordinate the city and suburban systems did not help. I think the best hope is leave present funds alone but to give the taxpayers better service with our limited tax dollars. I think this will indeed will work in Livonia, if the voters in my city are kept informed. Statistically, almost all failed transit proposals succeed in the U.S.A. as the failures are looked at. Examples include Seattle, Phoenix, Columbus, OH and Miami. If our regional and city leaders do nothing to get Livonia back then they should be voted OUT. So, Danny please vote and keep the public informed so we don't vote in more Hitler like leaders of any kind into any public office. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 215 Registered: 07-2004 |
First, the story from the Livonia Observer on the start of the new Livonia transit program: http://www.hometownlife.com/ap ps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061 126/NEWS10/611260403/1027 now, my exchange with 'ConcernedParent' in the comments:
Today, I am sadder than ever to live in Livonia. Here is yet another example, which is by no means limited to residents of Livonia, of the attitude of the region and the uphill battle we face as both advocates of transit and regional cooperation. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 216 Registered: 07-2004 |
I had this to say in response: I sure would love to see your source for how SMART - the Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation - generates revenue for corruption in Detroit. How do you expect the City to "clean itself up" when new jobs are being created farther and farther away from its residents, who are born into systemic conditions of poverty and have to work pretty hard just to afford the ability to GET to a job? While we're at it, I'd love to see more housing for lower-income families in Livonia and the suburbs - where the jobs are - but that's simply not going to happen in your backyard, right? Your posts speak for themselves - you state that you'd like Livonia to be "self sufficient", and you have no interest in "diversifying". I agree wholeheartedly that the SMART system is flawed, and that this move saves the city of Livonia money in the short term. Where we differ is that I see a problem that needs cooperation to fix, and you think it's best to hide your head in the sand or run away. Look around the country (outside your bubble) and find me a prosperous REGION without comprehensive mass transit. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 217 Registered: 07-2004 |
ConcernedParent continues the debate:
Is this a true representation of the opinion of most suburbanites? Obviously, the typical suburbanite isn't reading here, but if this is what most people feel, how do we open minds to the benefits of a prosperous region that cooperates? | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 218 Registered: 07-2004 |
My reply: (someone has to read this besides the two of us) I can agree with you that Livonia is doing the right thing by providing an affordable transportation system to its own citizens who need it. That's why I actually voted for the ballot proposal myself. I knew we were pulling out of SMART no matter what, so the vote was to provide something to those who would need it. People left the city of Detroit because the automotive industry found it cheaper to expand into the suburbs - well, the farmland that became our suburbs. The problem became that only whites could move to follow the jobs, because of intense discrimination in housing laws and financing practices. As more new jobs followed, City schools deteriorated over time, and now we are left with a segregated metro region, where the poor are uneducated and are all concentrated in one area. Crime rose FROM the problem of flight, not the other way around. Where you and I disagree is how you think each suburb can exist as an island, only taking care of itself. Yet, you blame people leaving Detroit on "a lack of respect for others". Livonia should be a leader among the older suburbs in working together to curb the sprawling development that is hurting us all. One way of fighting sprawl is to invest in transit, and not in freeway expansion. You see Dearborn working on the proposed Ann Arbor-to-Detroit transit line, and I feel that the population and job market in Dearborn will grow over the next 20 years as Livonia shrinks or remains the same. Some quotes: “The decision here by voters to pay a little more to build a regional transit system is going to define what the Denver region will be in this century. What we’ve built so far already has influenced where businesses locate, where housing is built, where people decide to live and how they get to work. It’s a very smart decision and people are excited about it.” - Joe Blake, head of the Metro Denver Chamber of Commerce "Clearly, DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) is helping to stimulate the local economy and to bring new vitality both to the City of Dallas and to the core areas of DART's suburban member cities." - University of North Texas researcher Bernard Weinstein, about a study that estimated at least $3.3 billion in private funds has been invested by developers at stations along DART's 45-mile light rail system “DART is the reason we did the project. That light rail line is our lifeblood - our connection to the Convention Center. It also gives our guests direct access to the West End and NorthPark." - Fred Kummer III, general manager of the new 1,900-room Adam’s Mark Hotel, the largest in Texas I can see the hotels in Livonia closing down as transit develops to our south, connected to the airport, Ann Arbor, and downtown Detroit. If that takes off, Livonia should be leading the way for mass transit along the 275 corridor. Again, SMART is certainly a dysfunctional system as it is today, but what it needs is more cooperation, not less. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 272 Registered: 04-2006 |
The Michigan Department of Transportation ~ MDOT slashed money from SMART in Livonia and nearby Detroit on November 27, 2006. The proof is that the MDOT debt in 1995 was repaid in full by Livonia residents with a $50 property tax increase. This same money will be used to expand freeways to Detroit and the airport. The expansion of the freeways does not meet the requirements to receive federal matching grants as approved by SEMCOG. The ADA requirements include the restoration of the SMART Middlebelt 285 bus line because the expansion money comes from shutting down the only handicapped facility serving two counties to connect the Airport and Detroit. The protection of our rights under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 are violated if this bus line in not restored without a fourth tax increase since Livonia started paying. The people who lost bus service include people of all religions and races from primarily the continents of North America and Africa. (Message edited by Trainman on December 01, 2006) |
