Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 11:47 am: | |
Snapped some photos of them working on the Bagley Fountain in Cadillac Square yesterday. I asked the workers if they were putting the drinking fountain piece, with all the lion heads on it, back in. He said they're making a new one cuz someone did, indeed, steal it when it was in storage. "It's probably sitting in some rich (expletive)'s garden now," he said. Anyway, sad, but at least the fountain is looking good. Sorry it's so small, but it wouldn't let me upload anything bigger. I put up a larger image here: www.msu.edu/~austind1/bagley.jpg
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Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d
Post Number: 73 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 11:52 am: | |
a lot of people might castigate me here... I love the idea of urban parks, but don't you guys think this too much. It's supposed to be the city core, thus an idea of a very high urban density. I'm kind of bothered by the 'sprawling parks. Campus Martius is just great, but I don't see this 'addition' adding to the urbanity of the area. Walking down there I feel it's too open, wide, spread out. This fountain I feel made this area way too loose and kind of obstructed an eventual high density area in this city core. I would love to see more compacity in the park designs in the city a-la Campus Martius. Thoughts? Ideas? Comments? |
Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 957 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:04 pm: | |
frenchman; you of all people should understand where this is coming from. it's not the idea of taking out density to put in parks, it's the idea of replacing green boulevards. campus martius used to be a big, paved intersection. where the bagley fountain is used to be an ugly bus station. point is, these were always planned this way to offset the density (based on pierre l'enfant's radiant city plan; inspired by paris; much like the champ elysses. [forgive my french spelling]) the reason it feels so empty now is because we've (IMO stupidly) torn down most of our density and urbanity. so, i believe that this restoration of green space will ultimately make many of the surrounding parcels more attractive for development and ultimately provide a beautiful, urban space. |
Dougw Member Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1397 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:20 pm: | |
Uh, Frenchman, this is not exactly what I'd call a "sprawling" park. It's smaller than Campus Martius. And there were no buildings in this median where the park was built, so we didn't lose any density. I agree with your general point, though. Awhile ago there was a thread on this forum with the suggestion that it would be great to have a huge Central Park-like sprawling park around Woodward in the midtown area, which is a terrible idea for the reasons you mention. |
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d
Post Number: 74 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:32 pm: | |
Rsa, Dougw, I perfectly agree with the points you put forward. Yes it is smaller than CM and nothing was torn down (for once!) to have the Bagley fountain. But I would love to see boutiques, residences... more urbanity in this area. I mean look at the picture Rhymes posted: depressing. The background is parking sturctures, one (!) building and the RenCen fortress... I think you all grasped my point. I find this area a very empty and void of any charm (especially the picture taken -Rhymes, nothing against your picture skills!). Why didn't they add benches? Trees? Something for God's sake! It looks so empty! Only red/pinkish pavement... |
Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 958 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:41 pm: | |
i agree with you there frenchman; what is the deal with all of the pavers? perhaps i'm a little too practical, but i like for space to have a "reason." what are you supposed to do there? can't sit, can't plant, can't recline, can't put up a stage, can't really perform, no shade, etc. i'll also agree with you on rampant park installation. i don't think it really helps out the urban environment when sprawling parks are installed 'cuz nothing else better is happening. i think those "mini-parks" in brush park were disastrous to the neighborhood. and the "kern park" (where compuware is today) was terrible as well. |
Sknutson
Member Username: Sknutson
Post Number: 724 Registered: 03-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:43 pm: | |
"compacity"? |
Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 2888 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:45 pm: | |
compacity = the area of the CBD near Compuware? |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 3017 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:49 pm: | |
Thanks for the info Rhymeswithhawk.... looks like some folks on the other thread have some egg on their face for doubting you! |
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73
Post Number: 149 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:03 pm: | |
Is there anyway anyone can get any pictures of the park from one of upper floors of the buildings around it? I can see from the little bit on the CM webcam that its not following their old rendering, and I'd really like to see what the overall look is. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 2188 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:06 pm: | |
Frenchman, Detroit has a density problem (lack of it), but a small downtown park does nothing to affect that. If anything, they add cohesion to downtown and add an appeal. Because of this park the Monroe block, which currently sits as a parking lot, will no doubt be developed as a high-rise sometime soon, rather than as another parking garage, because the parks have given this property a real sense of place. Detroit's density problems come from all of the surface parking lots, the result of the slow destruction of small/midsize downtown buildings since WWII. Very few blocks downtown have the cohesive structure of storefronts that they originally had, and that most other downtowns still have. They include the west side of Woodward from State to GCP; two blocks of Monroe in Greektown; a couple blocks on Broadway and around Harmonie Park; a couple blocks on Washington Blvd. In the end, though, building downtown parks (especially pocket parks that are really just islands in large roads) are hardly our problem. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 4068 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:25 pm: | |
Compared to the transit center of a few years ago, you should be jumping up and down for joy. I'm guessing the lack of tables and benches currently(?) is to possibly prevent the former denizens from returning. |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 161 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:41 pm: | |
That space around the fountain is terrible design, or a lack of it. Like Rsa said, there's nothing there. Instead of it being a place where people linger and relax and its going to be a place people just walk by to get somewhere else. Terrible. The only thing I could maybe see them do is put tables and chairs around it with some planters but since they would have to be bolted and chained to the ground how practical is that? |
Southen Member Username: Southen
Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:06 pm: | |
Theres nothing wrong with the location or idea of this park. What I have a problem with is the lack of "green" there. I really liked the original plan which included mostly grass in that area, and it worked because this park isnt the gathering place that Campus Martius is. So, if there werent people there it still looked good because of the grass and trees, now its just stark pavers. I really think they dropped the ball with this one, although its still a big improvement over what has been there in the past. |
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit
Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:48 pm: | |
I am pretty sure that seating and planters will be added to the site. |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 163 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:51 pm: | |
I hope your right SpiritofDetroit. Less green means less maintenance but also less attractive. |
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit
Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:52 pm: | |
At least that is what I was told when I inquired about the site plans a few months ago. The fountain itself looks great though... |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 164 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:54 pm: | |
I agree |
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar
Post Number: 300 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 3:04 pm: | |
I think the lack of green space has to do with future use of the park. With the 4th Friday stuff this past summer closing Woodward, the new park can act as a display area so there would no longer have to be the inconvenience of closing the streets. |
Erikd Member Username: Erikd
Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:34 am: | |
quote:I mean look at the picture Rhymes posted: depressing. The background is parking sturctures, one (!) building and the RenCen fortress...
The background of the photo shows the Millender Center hotel tower, Millender apartment tower, Millender garage, 5 Ren Cen towers, the Old County building, the Reid building, the Checker Bar building, and the 2 garages behind Comerica Tower. |
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 597 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:01 am: | |
Yes, there's also two orange barrels and some construction fencing. And a stop sign. But mostly, parking garages. |
1953 Member Username: 1953
Post Number: 1071 Registered: 12-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:15 am: | |
Wasn't there a farmers market in Cadillac Square, facing Campus Martius, in the nineteenth century? When I say farmers market, I mean a four or five story victorian looking building. |
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 99 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:47 am: | |
Yes there was.
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Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 959 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:50 am: | |
cadillac square was the former home of central market. it had "sheds" exactly like eastern market, except they were long runs instead of a cross layout. they were positioned length-wise along the median. they were eventually removed to belle isle, where they served as stables. about two years ago they were "dismantled" and put in storage at greenfield village for supposed future restoration and reuse. at the time of their dismantling they were considered to be some of the oldest structures in the city. |
Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 251 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:50 am: | |
that building on the right is georgeous....razed for first national building I assume? |
Neilr Member Username: Neilr
Post Number: 378 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 10:05 am: | |
The building on the right was the old Russell House. It was replaced in 1907 by the Pontchartrain Hotel (Mason & Rice) which was sold in 1920 and at that time replaced by the First National Bank Bldg. (Hawkins Ferry, p 211, 212). |
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker
Post Number: 1697 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 10:25 am: | |
Here are a couple of other views of Old Central Market in Cadillac Square.
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Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d
Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:34 am: | |
My goodness, great great pictures. Honnestly, if someone have me these pictures out of the blue, I would think it's Vienna back in the days. It also looks like there is a great number of churches... also destroyed?? THe one on the last picture, on the square.. ? |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 4081 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:57 am: | |
I believe that was the old City Hall, the "new" Old City Hall, behind that to the left. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 3025 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:12 pm: | |
Although some churches (especially wooden ones) were razed in the last 125 years, as well as a few destroyed by fire.... but all in all downtown stone/brick churches survived in greater numbers than other structures did. The oldest surviving churches date to 1848, 1849 and 1855. Earlier churches were usually made of wood. |
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 100 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:16 pm: | |
That is the back of the Central Market building pictured in 1st old photo. |
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:27 pm: | |
I find this area a very empty and void of any charm (especially the picture taken -Rhymes, nothing against your picture skills!). Why didn't they add benches? Trees? Something for God's sake! It looks so empty! Only red/pinkish pavement... Hey, don't hate the photo-taker, hate the planners. But seriously, the orange fencing and barrels are all along Caddy Square, which would hint that it's not done. You can't get INTO the park itself without stepping over the temporary fencing. So I think there's lots more to come. Be patient. People who live in the city (and around it, I guess) should be used to that. |
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen
Post Number: 1679 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 8:02 am: | |
Check out this FIVE THINGS: About Bagley Fountain piece in today's Free Press: "Detroit's first public drinking fountain, an architectural gem, is back. ... Created in 1887 with money from the estate of John Judson Bagley, the pink granite drinking fountain cost about $7,000 ($143,675 in today's money) to build. It now stands downtown on the just-rebuilt Cadillac Square, east of Campus Martius. ... The Romanesque-style fountain is the only known surviving work in Michigan of Henry Hobson Richardson, who is considered to be one of America's most important architects. ..." Full article plus pictures at http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006611060348 |
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen
Post Number: 1680 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 8:06 am: | |
P.S. Thanks, Rhymeswithrawk!! |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 1183 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 8:58 am: | |
Heres the Market roof while it was part of the Belle Isle stables. Here is a portion that was dismantled and is stored in the Henry Ford Museum warehouse currently. Heres the interior of the roof Another Cast iron and wooden support details This spiral staircase was also originally in the Market building. The guys who were dismantling to roof saw me poking around and invited me into the work area. They did their best to save every single board that was original to the Market. |
Psip
Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 1284 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 10:36 am: | |
^^^ WOW! |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 3031 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 1:27 pm: | |
Thanks for the nice pics Mauser765! And thanks for the link Rhymeswithrawk... that article also mentions and shows the other Detroit gem that I mention on this Forum frequently.... the neglected Merrill Fountain in Palmer Park. I think it should be the next Detroit icon that is restored and relocated back downtown. It would make a nice centerpiece for when Capitol Park gets rehabbed. |