  Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 37 Registered: 04-2006 |
It's a contentious issue, but economic trends are pretty clear - states that forbid compulsory union dues get the growth more easily than states without right-to-work provisions. Is this a change that can ever happen in Michigan, given the union presence and political climate? | ||
65memories Member Username: 65memories Post Number: 301 Registered: 10-2003 |
no | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 880 Registered: 12-2005 |
<shudder> HELL no. | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 38 Registered: 04-2006 |
I guess the natural counterpart to that question is whether or not right-to-work legislation would somehow HURT Detroit. I don't really see that happening. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 190 Registered: 02-2006 |
How could it make it worse? I'm not sure what happens if you live in a right to work state and work at a business that has union representation. If you choose not to join do you still pay dues and not vote? Hoe does it work? | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 555 Registered: 08-2005 |
I think it would make more sense to compare wages and benefits of workers in Right-to-work states to those in comparable jobs in non-RTW states. Are workers getting worse compensation in the non-union states? | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 39 Registered: 04-2006 |
It usually means you can decline to pay union dues or join the union, if you don't want to join. This differs from compulsory unionization, where you have no say in the matter. | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 40 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Are workers getting worse compensation in the non-union states?" Yes, but unemployment is lower. That's the big tradeoff. It's not clear that the unionization model as it exists in Michigan is tenable for much longer. We might have to choose between a smaller pool of higher-paying jobs, or a wider pool of lower-paying jobs. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 887 Registered: 12-2005 |
Hansel and Gretel | ||
Schoolcraft Member Username: Schoolcraft Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2005 |
I am in Arizona..a right to work state where wages are indeed lower and until recently property values were lower than in Michigan. Also, we have lower property tax rates which fuel the home building buying industry and I believe encourages people to move here. All I see is union membership decline in this country. To me it is obvious, generally speaking, unions have served their purpose. No? | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 813 Registered: 06-2004 |
Oh gosh... don't change the status quo. What with employment and wage levels plummeting here in Michigan, with stagnation for 5 years while the rest of the economy boomed (6.5 million new jobs since 2003), with 15-20 automobile plants built down south, the last thing we want to do is MESS WITH SUCCESS! We must adhere to the teachings of the unions and the left, which have served our region so well for decades. We must reject all new ideas. By sheer force of will, we can make the world to live with us, frozen in time, in 1970. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 891 Registered: 12-2005 |
Step into my parlor, said the spider to the fly. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2186 Registered: 02-2005 |
Yes! We need to lower labor prices, or else just about all manufacturing jobs will leave. The unions, and many of the kool aid drinkers on this site, think we can have our cake and eat it too. Economics 101 says no, we can't. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 152 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes, Yes, Yes. Heavily unionized Michigan is a very unattractive place for companies with intensive manufacturing who may be considering investment and growth. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10803 Registered: 10-2003 |
A new governor would be of greater benefit. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 723 Registered: 02-2004 |
It's important that Michiganders make less money and get fewer benefits. Unhappy low paid workers are easier to fire and easier to replace. Then the savings can be spent on exorbitant CEO golden parachute packages. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1649 Registered: 10-2004 |
Not for greedy, overpaid unskilled labor. But those dinosaur jobs are disappearing anyway. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 725 Registered: 02-2004 |
The best part? The employer gets to decide, at whim, who is a professional, who is skilled, who is overpaid. The answer? Not the employer, who can run businesses into the ground and just blame the workers. (see: Ford Motor Company) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4770 Registered: 09-2005 |
As the left pushes unions, universal healthcare and larger pensions, one only needs to look at the "success" model offered by union members who have had these perks for the past 40 years. Are they healthier than the general population? Are their benefactors (auto companies - proposed to be taxpayers/govt) in good financial shape? Finally, are those union members who've reaped the benefits appreciative? (See Miss Cleo's comments on her employer and the COD) I fail to see why employers wouldn't flee from any sort of union arrangement, especially when they have an abundance of willing workers. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2674 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lessons from a factory fire Plant explosion in North Carolina raises questions of workplace safety in the South. By Patrik Jonsson | Special to The Christian Science Monitor from the February 03, 2003 edition KINSTON, N.C. – As the smoke cleared this weekend, wafting above the coffee shops and army-surplus stores of Kinston, N.C., people fretted about the loss of 255 jobs from the West Pharmaceutical Plant. They wondered whether the company would rebuild here after its factory exploded Wednesday afternoon with a force that rattled windows 10 miles away. But behind those worries lurked a quieter, more sobering, question for many in this town of 25,000: How did a seemingly safe workplace turn into a fireball? Coming only 12 years and 170 miles from the second-worst American industrial accident of the 20th century - when a fire killed dozens at a Hamlet, N.C., chicken-nugget plant - last week's explosion is sparking fresh concerns about factory-worker safety, especially in the South. Despite a horde of new workplace regulations, critics say the South's anti-union workforce and pro-industry government continue to "wink and nod" at hazardous manufacturing conditions. "It's dangerous to go to work for most of the people in this state," says Alyce Gowdy Wright, director of the North Carolina Occupational Safety and Health Project in Durham, a nonprofit workers' advocacy group. So far, investigators are focusing on two possible causes - a newly installed natural-gas line and a cloud of rubber dust - in the blast that killed four and injured 37. No negligence has been found with West, a manufacturer based in Pennsylvania. Far from rushing to judgment, the local county commission voted on Friday to give $600,000 to West to rebuild here, and a local landlord is offering free office space to company executives. The South's industrial ethos That beneficence is rooted in the history of the South: post-Civil War industrialists who pushed to keep wages low, converting the region from an agricultural landscape to an industrial powerhouse - forging, too, a patriarchal system in which "an iron fist lurked beneath the velvet glove," says North Carolina State University sociologist Jeff Leiter. That ethos of brawny, even macho, self-sufficiency - and a culture where hazardous conditions are a normal part of life - has also kept all but about 4 percent of the state's workers from unionizing, though union shops tend to be safer on the whole. A lack of criminal prosecutions allows owners to remain lax about installing guardrails and keeping exits clear, union activists say. "In the South, legislatures have a hard time not thinking about the interests of business all the time," says Mr. Leiter. With a halting economy and recent layoffs, concerns have intensified. Moreover, competition with unregulated workplaces overseas - as well as a sea of new federal regulations - threaten to put many factories out of business. After bearing floods, hurricanes, and massive layoffs through the 1990s, many Kinston residents see their plants as the lifeblood of their town. The $12 to $14 wages at West were some of the best around, and many of the 255 employees had been with the company since the plant opened in the early 1980s. West was the county's eighth-largest taxpayer. When Darryl Rodgers saw the tornado of smoke on Wednesday, the Kinston truck driver had an easier time believing that an airplane had crashed than that the factory had exploded, spreading burning debris across acres of fallow tobacco plots. "Nobody around here had any idea that there was something that explosive in that building," says Mr. Rodgers, who lost two acquaintances in the accident. At West, no clear danger To be sure, most plant owners don't consciously put their employees at risk, says Jo Anne Borgoyne, a spokeswoman for the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). "There are some companies that always want to do the right thing, and then you have a group that do the right thing because they're afraid to get punished, and then there's a small group that just don't care," says Ms. Borgoyne. An inspector who found 22 serious safety violations at the West plant in October said his findings were "routine" for the myriad plants that dot the Carolina countryside. The company was fined $10,000. Indeed, modern safety measures built into the West plant likely saved dozens of workers' lives, says Jay Trehy, an injury lawyer in Raleigh. The North Carolina Labor Department, too, points out that factory deaths are declining. The death toll dropped from 234 in 2001 to 203 in 2002. Worker injuries dropped from 5.7 per 100 workers in 2001 to 4.8 last year. Still, the 1991 Hamlet fire changed attitudes dramatically here in North Carolina. The legislature passed 14 new safety laws, including a whistle-blower provision, and boosted the inspector corps from 60 to 114. "As a government, we had not taken steps and been as aggressive as we could have been, making sure there were clear standards and having a set of people in place to make sure those standards had been met," says North Carolina's former Speaker of the House Dan Blue (D). As federal agents make their way through West's smoldering remains this week, that question of standards has surfaced once again. "We just hope there's no coverups, and that we find out what really happened," says Mr. Rodgers. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5135 Registered: 02-2004 |
Every state is a right to work state! Where you have the right to work anywhere you go. | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 42 Registered: 04-2006 |
I see a lot of fear and naysaying about the supposed negative effects of right-to-work legislation, but, what do you propose as an alternative? Right-to-work legislation doesn't abolish unions. If unions offer a service people want to buy into, then people will. It just bars compulsory payment of union dues. It means that unions can't automatically confiscate part of your paycheck without your consent. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1562 Registered: 12-2003 |
Isn't that what is happening right now? Also should the company not honor its contract with its CEO, just the workers? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2676 Registered: 10-2003 |
"I see a lot of fear and naysaying about the supposed negative effects of right-to-work legislation, but, what do you propose as an alternative?" I propose that we look at the bigger picture of globalization. I don't think that the ball can be rolled back up the hill, and there are certainly benefits to some globalization; for example, I can sell stuff on ebay to some guy in England and not have to pay a huge tariff...but things have definitely been set up to favor huge mulitnationals to our obvious disadvantage...(If free trade is really free, why can't I order prescriptions from Mexico or Canada?) These treaties need to be renegotiated. A good book on this is subject: The Global Class War by Jeff Faux http://www.amazon.com/Global-C lass-War-Americas-Bipartisan/d p/0471697613/sr=1-1/qid=116231 3634/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2866897- 1865639?ie=UTF8&s=books The percentage of workers here that are unionized is no longer that large...And many "union" jobs don't pay that much anyway. I'm curious too about all the building trades jobs in the area. Are most of them not union? Is there not a building boom going on around downtown? So it seems that plenty of things can still be done with a union workforce... Somehow, emulating a backward state like North Carolina does not seem like a good idea to me. As Dennis Archer said at the beginning of his first campaign, "We can do better". | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 243 Registered: 08-2006 |
No! Let the job market determine what types of jobs businesses will offer. The Labor law card deck is all ready stacked in favor of companies. They don't need more laws to screw employees over. They have plenty all ready believe me! | ||
Gianni Member Username: Gianni Post Number: 253 Registered: 05-2004 |
That's the ticket! Lets get rid of the unions. All they do is hurt the poor, weak corporations. Just what we need. Greater and unfettered corporate power. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1207 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't think being a right to work state will change anything. Not doing anything will not solve the current situation. Making us a right to work state will not stop the jobs headed overseas. Manufacturing in the US is dying unless we want to work for $1 a day. Changing governors will not change it, keeping the same governor will not change it. The jobs are leaving due to the fact there is someplace else where it can be done much cheaper. Is this hurting MI bigtime, yup. The biggest thing MI can do right now is continue to invest in education, including retraining the displaced workers. We need to take full advantage of the wonderful university and community college system we have. With that being said, education needs to be more affordable to ALL. That is how we fix MI. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2187 Registered: 02-2005 |
Cambrian, right-to-work laws enable the job market to do just that. These laws 'de-regulate' unionized industries, making union membership non-compulsory. Individual rights...hmm that sounds pretty American to me. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 244 Registered: 08-2006 |
If that's all it is...fine. But we know all too often they stick other poison pills in these nasty bits of legislation. Like the company reserves the right to fire at will, with no cause, or no more time and a half for over 40 hours, and no requirements to provide health care. Sounds more and more like a trojan horse of bad news for workers. And you classist conservatives may say "So what! if they did not have what it takes to get a degree and marketable skills, they deserve what they get!" As I said on other threads here, you see the bottom end worker getting screwed, it's not too long before the bosses take what they learned and start applying that screw the employee template farther up the corporate food chain. And yes, the companies have the right to relocate to any state or country they please to avoid taxes and laws they don't like. We as consumers have the right to only buy products from companies that are committed to keeping our local economy working. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 576 Registered: 02-2006 |
Oh damn, just like every other job. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 245 Registered: 08-2006 |
Not necessarily focus on the ed. Do you really think the upper level bosses that like right to work laws are themselves dumb enough to go work for a company without an employment contract that stipulates large severance packages in the event they are let go from their jobs? | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 580 Registered: 02-2006 |
Oh right, I forgot. CEOs and line workers are the only people that exist. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But it is mine that when you make yourself valuable to a company, they will do what they can to retain you. Let's assume that we all fall neatly into your Marxist view, blue and white collar only. There are 100 jobs available in each category. There are 150 workers who match the qualifications for the white collar jobs. There are 1000 workers who match the qualifications for the blue collar jobs. In this scenario, from a business point of view, why should any guarantees be made to the blue collar worker? There are many that could do his job. The white collar worker, there are few that could replace him and his particular skill set. Obviously the world is not this cut and dry, but those are the two groups you left me with. (Message edited by focusonthed on October 31, 2006) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 246 Registered: 08-2006 |
Some one needs reading glasses I see. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 581 Registered: 02-2006 |
I don't really want to get into this, because my views paint me into a right-wing corner, which isn't who I am. I just don't feel that certain union demands are reasonable. My background is mixed...I grew up in a white collar family, but my parents and grandparents built their families through work at auto plants (Kelsey-Hayes on one side of the family) and PA steel mills on the other side. My Pittsburgh grandfather rose from the ranks of the standard mill worker to eventually be VP of the plant by the time he retired. So I feel like I have a view of both sides in my family. It is the kind of work that made my family what it is, but this model is not appropriate in this age (for better or worse). | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 247 Registered: 08-2006 |
That is neat! We have almost exact backgrounds and different views on unions. My great grandfather, a polish immigrant, retired from Kelsey Hayes plant on Mcgraw back in '58, my grandfather who was from Pittsburgh migrated here to work at Rouge in 1934. All his kids have white collar jobs, some feel as you do. I think we need unions now more then ever. The middle class is going bye bye. How many of us actually think there's going to room for us at the top once they successfully get rid of the middle class? | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 44 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Like the company reserves the right to fire at will, with no cause, or no more time and a half for over 40 hours" I've been terminated "at will" a few different times in my life. There were jobs I've had that didn't pay overtime. Sure, those things suck. But unemployment sucks even more. I think we do need to recognize how cushy unionized job perks really are compared with the economy at large. And then you might realize, perhaps with a bit of sadness, that things ain't like that anymore. We need to "get with the times," because the times sure aren't chafing at the gate to get with us. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2679 Registered: 10-2003 |
"getting with the times" oh, right... At one point, that meant buying some human beings to work the fields for you. There are some cushy unionized job perks, but there are an awful lot of overpaid executives too. Like some of the other posters, my grandfather's union pipefitter job made it possible for others in my family to attend college. He managed through the depression by keeping bees in his backyard and selling honey door to door too, so union wages and benefits are only part of the story. I've never been a union member, and I'm not some union fetishist who overlooks some of the abuses of say, union city workers sleeping in their C of D trucks, but again, imitating states like NC is not the answer. Bob hit on one wiser solution-making education affordable to all. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1563 Registered: 12-2003 |
Making education affordable to all? What does that mean, lower tuition, no student loans? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2680 Registered: 10-2003 |
lower tuition, yes. subsidies yes...think what the GI Bill did for us. No student loans? What? No Debt?? That's unAmerican! | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 45 Registered: 04-2006 |
I don't think that unionization has kept CEOs from being overpaid in Michigan. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2006 |
The class warriors want to go back to the good old days of the 50's and 60's. The middle class around the world is taking it in the shorts, their wages are dropping and the third world wages are rising, they'll meet somewhere. What's going to be interesting is how crazy the middle class is going to be. Are they going to demand trade barriers to keep out the competition? Only elect populist pols? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 734 Registered: 02-2004 |
What middle class? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4786 Registered: 09-2005 |
Cambrian said: "The middle class is going bye bye. How many of us actually think there's going to room for us at the top once they successfully get rid of the middle class?" ORF said: "What middle class?" I'd like to ask this group some questions: Do you have: 1. A car? 2. Heat? 3. Air conditioning? 4. Meals whenever you're hungry? 5. Go out to eat once in awhile? 6. Liquor in the house? 7. Indoor plumbing? 8. More than one bathroom? 9. More than one house? 10. 401K or pension? Or both? 11. Massive unpaid bills for healthcare? 12. Took a vacation in the last 18 months? 13. A park nearby? 14. Access to affordable public transportation? 15. A garbage disposal? 16. A dishwasher? 17. A second/third car? 18. A recreational vehicle of any sort? Boat/RV/camp trailer/ATV? 19. TV? Big screen? Plasma? More than one? 20. Cable? 21. A phone in your home? How many? 22. A cel phone? 23. Children? 24. Furniture in your home that is usable? 25. Carpeting/flooring other than dirt in your home? 26. Refrigerator? More than one? 27. Freezer? 28. Microwave? 29. Washer? Dryer? Indoors, of course. 30. Many other appliances? 31. A warm/cool quiet place to sleep - with a decent mattress & linens? 32. Are you able to occasionally go on a shopping trip to buy a gift for someone other than yourself? 33. Can you sometimes help "the poor"? 34. Do you sometimes visit the hairdresser/barber? 35. Are you a consumer of personal care products (deoderant/makeup/etc)? You can probably add to the list - but I doubt very much that anyone on this forum can't answer yes to most of those items - and are hardly poor by any standard and are, in fact, solidly middle class and, by some standards, upper middle class. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 735 Registered: 02-2004 |
I have many of those things, Karl. I live in a union household, my husband was a 31 year UAW member, I am a member of the CWA. Our union membership made it possible for us to partake in the American Dream, to be good consumers. Watch that evaporate with every greedy corporate ploy. I particularly like the parentheses around the poor. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 249 Registered: 08-2006 |
That is interesting logic, if I make $10K per year, I can still afford most of those things. So is that your proposal, change how we define poverty class, and middle class? Therefore it becomes acceptable to make $10 to $15 K per year. Who benefits? Do the wall street billionaires have to give up most of thier fortunes as well to better benefit our country? Hey if my wife makes $12K, and I make $11K per year, our house hold makes $23 K per yr, woo hoo you're right! We can afford hair cuts after all! Sorry, I aint buyin' in. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8067 Registered: 10-2003 |
That is irrelevant. The true gauge is looking at ones total debt and assets. Many people that have everything that you list still don't have the means to pay their monthly bills. The middle class is shrinking but so is personal financial responsibility. Two shiny cars in the driveway usually aren't paid for in cash. The imposion of the middle class both due to market forces and their own careless spending will have a large impact. It's not just the 30K dumps in poor areas getting taken over by the bank. Equating possesions to someones financial situation is a very stupid argument. (Message edited by jt1 on November 01, 2006) | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 46 Registered: 04-2006 |
Let me put the question this way - what is compulsory unionization giving Michigan right now (the Michigan of America's highest unemployment, declining manufacturing, huge youth brain-drain, etc.) that Michigan will LOSE by becoming a right-to-work state? We can't keep on pretending that the economy will bend to our will and wishes. It won't. What good is a high-horse when the incoming tide is even higher? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4792 Registered: 09-2005 |
Jt1 said: " Many people that have everything that you list still don't have the means to pay their monthly bills." Then Jt1 said: "Equating possesions to someones financial situation is a very stupid argument." And you blame this on whether there are unions and higher wages, or not? So the more that folks spend, despite their solidly middle class status, unions should chase down their employers and make them pay for the employee's overspending? Please. Want more? Work more. Think more. But don't legislate and/or beg for more. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 250 Registered: 08-2006 |
We can always vote to leave the US and be part of Canada. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "That is interesting logic, if I make $10K per year, I can still afford most of those things." On $10k a year, you're sharing a one bedroom apartment with two other $10k earners. That's how the illegals in California do it. They don't have many of the goods mentioned, just the absolute necessities, the TV. With a skill of some kind, you can make it. Just have to have a skill that's worth paying for. And if you have to move to Wyoming to use the skill, move. Don't piss and moan because you can't find a job. A guy I ride with told me half the people in his plant in LA in the early 80's were from Michigan. Wasn't there a thread about how Atlas Van Lines keeps track of moves, and Michigan has been the number one bugout for 30 years? This isn't directed to you personally, Cambrian. But to all the like thinkers. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 251 Registered: 08-2006 |
Nothing wrong with relocating for work, I've got lots of friends and relatives who have left over the years. I like Cali, would love to go, but my family needs me here at the moment. My choice, I'm aware. Worth mentioning though we're not just talking about following work around the country anymore like we where in the early 80s. Are we supposed to be able to follow our job to Asia when our boss decides that's where he wants to have his talent now? Be it production workers, or IT professionals. This should be illegal, not encouraged. Some rich guy wants to loot my bank account to add it to his piles of money. Can I go to his mansion and steel the rims off his bentley to put the money back in to my bank? Is'nt that illegal? | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1676 Registered: 06-2004 |
Here we are again. You'd think after all these discussions that someone would wonder if there really is a right side and a wrong side. Workers (incl unions) and corporations are dependant on each other. It's like a marriage where the two parties don't get along. And why should they? They are both selfish entities. You think most corporations wouldn't get away with slave labor if they could? There's nothing altruistic about an institution who's primary purpose... wait... who's sole purpose is to make a profit. They are soulless entities that operate on greed. They treat workers like numbers instead of people. And let's be clear - most corporations will not survive without a middle class. Who is going to buy all those products that they are making? And unions? Who says that an autoworker has the right to make three times what a textile worker makes... so that autos are so much more expensive. Or maybe textile workers should be paid more? I think it'd be interesting, though, to see how a few autoworkers would feel if they had to pay 300.00 for a shirt. Unions can serve a great purpose, but I've had so many experiences where workers defend work rules that slow down the completion of a job... not speed it up. I'm not anti-union as a concept, but my experiences with unions in the construction industry - while not all bad - includes a great deal of frustration and anger at the arrogance and hostility I have to put up with sometimes... And there's an American parochialism about the whole subject, anyway... another sign that selfishness on all sides is what dictates policy... how many people are actually happy that the Japanese now have a higher standard of living? That life is improving for the Chinese? The Vietnamese? The Hungarians? The Kuwaiti's? Don't you wish that africa was doing better? Granted that nations are as selfish as corporations, unions and workers, etc., and that the playing field isn't always level. But I wonder if many people would say they don't want the rest of the world to do better. Maybe they wouldn't say it out loud or even admit it to themselves... but they don't want to see the world as a level playing field. Everyone has tunnel vision. Rant done. We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate. Please go back to choosing sides. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8068 Registered: 10-2003 |
Karl - You missed my point entirely. My comment was not an indictment on the unions or in support of unions. I was simply pointing out that someone may have all of the possessions that you list but be in terrible financial shape. The appearance of middle class is not the same as being able to afford being middle class. The lack of personal financial responsibility in this country gives a perception of much more wealth than the reality of the mounting bills that many of these people face. It should not be legislated - people need to be more responsible fiscally. Aquiring have of what you list does nothing if one can't afford it. Perception of wealth or middle class does not distate that it truly exists for many. (Message edited by jt1 on November 01, 2006) | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 738 Registered: 02-2004 |
Lyn, I would direct you to the Fair Trade not Free Trade movement. As a trade unionist, I think everybody should be paid a fair wage, and I think environmental concerns should apply to all countries, and I think the CEO's should not be paid 500 times the average worker wage. That's a level playing field where everybody can compete. As far as leaving for work, how does that affect community? I would like to live in my community and make it better, not have to leave to chase a job while some fat bastard makes a $5 million in stock options alone. It's tearing the fabric of this country apart. We saw in the bad old 80's and it's coming around again. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1567 Registered: 12-2003 |
What is a fair wage? Based upon workers value to the company? | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1679 Registered: 06-2004 |
Oldredfordette - I'd like to think that wages and environmental concerns by unions are altruistic... and I mean that sincerely... but somehow I can't get around the sneaking suspicion that a part of that concern is simply to make foreign labor more expensive. I have no proof... just a sense I get from union statements. Especially after decades of criticism of work shifted to lower wage countries. It's not fair to lump everyone together, though. I don't mean those suspicions personally or that it's an indictment of everyone in the union movement. And... it doen't change my opinion that it's counter-productive to discuss this so one-sidedly. (Message edited by llyn on November 01, 2006) | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 96 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "Oldredfordette - I'd like to think that wages and environmental concerns by unions are altruistic... and I mean that sincerely..." They're not, it is a way to make the competition from overseas less competitive. Plain and simple. The unions can't compete, they HAVE to have a monopoly to exist. The public employees unions don't have competition, if you don't like the building department in town, you can't get your permit from another city. Or the police, fire, teachers, etc... That's why the government unions are the only ones holding on. Private sector is toast. I like the ....., gonna use that more. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1210 Registered: 11-2003 |
Actually you do have a choice, move out of that community. There is no magic answer to MI's woes. If there was this whole problem may be fixed by now. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "Actually you do have a choice, move out of that community. There is no magic answer to MI's woes. If there was this whole problem may be fixed by now." Not an option, the next town is the same, the same a**holes in a different city. They don't have to compete with each other, that's the point. If you don't like a Ford, you can buy a Dodge. Can't do that with public employees. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 253 Registered: 08-2006 |
Not really understanding the point FW....if my city was free to seek out non union labor, how would that benefit me as a resident of that city? Would my city manager be able to give himself a raise? Our would he be able to fire the over paid police and fireman and replace them with lo paid temps who don't give a crap about how long it takes to answer my emergency call? What exactly am I gaining from getting the unions out of my City infrastructure? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8070 Registered: 10-2003 |
It would allow the city the ability to fire the underperforming staff. A luxury that is currently not afforded to the city at this time. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 254 Registered: 08-2006 |
I've worked at Union shops, and people there can be Fired, all though it's not immediate and at the whim of the boss's mood that morning. In a union shop you actually have to give the employee a chance to make the problem right. Shudder the thought! | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8071 Registered: 10-2003 |
Your shop does not represent all unions and all shops. I have no problems with a level of fair protection. Detroit city employees are given way too much latitude much of which is due to the unions. We also have a problem of incompletent supervisors. I do not know whether they are union or not. | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 47 Registered: 04-2006 |
You also can't fire workers very easily at the whim of the economy, which is the problem. You 'take it on the chin' compared to companies with more employment flexibility. Yeah, it's harsh for workers. I know personally. But let's be realistic; what we are doing now just doesn't work. | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2006 |
"It just bars compulsory payment of union dues. It means that unions can't automatically confiscate part of your paycheck without your consent" And give it to a political party that you don't agree with. | ||
Tripper Member Username: Tripper Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 |
I am a former Detroiter living in Idaho (aka Bushlandia), a Right to Work State. Basically it gives companies the right to pay workers poverty wages, treat them poorly, and fire them if they complain. Right to work does not help attract good paying jobs...workers here are happy to get jobs in call centers paying $9 or $10 per hour. The companies here who do provide benefits, offer substandard programs at a cost much higher than I paid when working in a number of mid-west locations. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 587 Registered: 02-2006 |
That is a whole different issue entirely. Unskilled labor is dead. If you have no skills whatsoever, you should be f-ing glad some call center will hire you for $10/hour. It's just different times. You can't just walk up to the Rouge plant and get handed a hardhat anymore. THAT has nothing to do with unions, though it gets tangled up often. (Message edited by focusonthed on November 01, 2006) | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 913 Registered: 12-2005 |
Tripper, welcome to the forum. Your reports from the hinterlands are appreciated.  | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 255 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes, and in order to be skilled, better have rich mommies and daddies to send us to U of M so the companies will even look at our resumes. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8074 Registered: 10-2003 |
Or there is a little something called student loans. The whole 'rich mommy and daddy' misconception is absolute crap. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4802 Registered: 09-2005 |
Jimaz said: "Tripper, welcome to the forum. Your reports from the hinterlands are appreciated." Yeah, as long as those reports are left leaning.... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8075 Registered: 10-2003 |
Or as long as you don't post the same blather over and over (Abortion, Ted Kennedy, Blame America) | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 914 Registered: 12-2005 |
Karl, you're in the hinterlands, right leaning, and yet you're still here. Does that teach you anything about being gracious and polite? (Message edited by Jimaz on November 01, 2006) | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3125 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think Karl is stuck in the 50's somewhere... | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 256 Registered: 08-2006 |
I don't know what kinda student loans you guys think are out there, but the ones I've received only cover a portion of the tuition. So how does one pay for housing, transportation, medical expenses and food without rich parents? Let me guess! Get a job right? How many employers do you know of that actually want to employ a student where his focus is studying and getting As and is not focused on making his boss money? Right none of em'. All jobs want a guy with a degree, but you better have it before you get there. Even the Micky Dee's boss could care less if you got classes, he needs you to close up shop until 2am. You people are seriously kidding yourselves if you think kids from modest means have a fair shake at making a living in this new economy when they grow up. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8076 Registered: 10-2003 |
BULLSHIT. My family had nothing. I got by on grants (which are available for many), student loans and working two jobs. Maybe crying less and working harder is the solution. My parents could contribute $0 to my education and I got by. Tuition is about $10-12K now on the pricier side of public schools. One can easily earn enough to pay for living expenses beyond tuition.
All businesses want to earn money however there are tons of jobs available that you can work around classes (wait tables at night, student jobs, etc). You are doing nothing but making excuses. If you have only received loans to cover a portion of the expense you are obviously from a family that makes enough to help or only willing to take out subsidized loans. Sorry to break it to you but you may have to take out unsubsidized loans as well. They suck but you can still take them out. I'll help you out: Transporation - not needed if you live on campus. If you commute live with your parents and drop housing. Medical can be covered with a less expensive option through the University (dental schools, etc). Complaining doesn't make you a martyr. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8077 Registered: 10-2003 |
I will add I understand how much it sucks but the argument that only the rich can afford college sucks. Yes, I still pay $400 a month for student loans years after getting out of school but it was and still is my best option. I will throw a hell of a party when the last student loan payment is made but it was still a great option. While at school I took the bus, had no medical coverage beyond the cheap school options, worked at multiple jobs so I could cater to my schedule. It is possible to reduce expenses and survive for years on the cheap. It seems too many people are unwilling to do that. While it may not be you I hear too many people bitch about tuition while driving a nice car or listenting to their I-pod or having drinks at the bar. Seems the idea of sacrifice is dying. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 595 Registered: 02-2006 |
My dad was broke when he went through college. He worked the graveyard shift at Kalamazoo Regional Psychiatric Hospital, got off work at dawn, went to 8am class, took a nap, went to afternoon classes, and went to his other job as a hotel desk clerk, then went back to KRPH. Rinse, repeat. Similarly, I didn't qualify for grants/scholarships because my parents made too much (according to the government). But we all know how realistic that is. So I worked my way through college, 40 hours a week plus a full class load. Graduated in 4 years flat with a 3.5, and I drank way too much...could have been a 4.0. In a college town, there are plenty of jobs for college students. That's the whole economy. However, in my earlier diatribe about unskilled labor, "skilled" does not necessarily mean "college degree." It means skilled. As in you know how to do something that not everyone knows how to do. Shit, be an auto mechanic. Call one of those 1-800 numbers for "TV/VCR repair, medical transcriptionist, bookkeeper" you know the drill, LOL. Sacrifice is dying, Jt1. More people would rather curse the skies than grit their teeth and say "fuck the world" and just get it done. (not directed at Cambrian) | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2424 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've known way too many college students from poor backgrounds to buy into Cambrian's argument. I'm sure it sounds trite and condescending to some, but if you really want to go to college you can find a way to make it happen. You might start off at a community college or take a year off from school to earn more money but millions have done it. It's more about attitude than money. Some of my immigrant friends have commented on how easy it was for them to get their undergrad and graduate degrees here compared to in their country of origin. If they can do it given the language barrier, I find it hard to sympathize with an autoworker who's had ample opportunity over the years to attend college using employer/union-sponsored tuition reimbursement and their upper middle class salary. This thread brings to mind a college classmate of mine who grew up in Delray. WCCC for two years, then lived in Ypsi and rode his motorcycle to AA to save money. All winter long, even in snow storms. He took 18 credit hours every semester since the tuition was the same for 12 to 18 credits. He didn't party, join a frat or a protest march. He worked all the time, got his BSEE hit the working world on a tear. My roommate was from River Rouge, 1st generation immigrant, worked 2 40-hours jobs and took Calc III and trained (non-scholarship student athlete) the summer after freshman year. He had fire in his belly, got his BSEE and is now a very successful executive. I could go on but you get the idea. On the other hand, if some aren't willing to do what it takes to get ahead then they'll be left behind, often blaming everyone but themselves. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 257 Registered: 08-2006 |
Jt1 and Focus on the Ed, I aint sayin' it never could be done, but I am sayin' the way our economy is going, ratio of college cost and increase in cost of living in relationship to what types of jobs are available to students or any unformally educated young person now or in the future just won't be possible. Just because someone may have pulled it off in the 60s or 70s, does not mean they could be able to do it now. Or if it were still barely possible because some how someone decides to "not complain so much" and finds that one sweet heart boss who will let you have the same nights off every week, and you have a really nice friend of the family bank rep who lets you borrow money, can you assure the 7th grader of today that they can do the same thing when they are ready to go to college, warranting the way our country is going? | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "Yes, and in order to be skilled, better have rich mommies and daddies to send us to U of M so the companies will even look at our resumes." This is going to make some of you sick, but when I went to UM in 1970, tuition was $76 a semester. The dorm was $1052, and that included 20 meals a week, not the 12 or so they get now. By 1974 it was $449 a semester, I rented a two bedroom apartment,$95 month,my half, about three miles from Central Campus and rode a motorcycle to class. Even in January it was better riding the bike for 8 minutes than walking 15 or 20 minutes to class. You could do the whole four years for about $6k. My brother is looking at $120k for his kid. And getting out with a liburul arts degree in 1974, well, it was worthless. Food service or retail was it. Just above minimum wage, if you were lucky. Looking in the Free Press or News want ads, anything I was remotely qualified wanted 3-5 years experience. For you sprouts, this was during the first energy crisis, 10% unemployment, 10% inflation. The whole, get a degree, get a ticket into the middle class, ended about then. You had to have an engineering, medical, law, dentistry, accounting, teaching degree to get hired. It sucked. So I did something else, and retired eight years ago, haven't had to work since. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8081 Registered: 10-2003 |
I was in college in the 90s, not 60s or 70s. The scenarios are similar. I understand and sympathize but my situation was probably very similar to yours. As for sweetheart boss - that implies that you are taking classes at night. If that is the case I would assume that you are commuting to school. If that is the case there are plenty of 9-5s and a distinct possibility that you could live with your parents (assuming they still live in the area) and get rid of that pesky housing costs. Unsubsidized loans are through the government, not a bank. I think that the situation is getting more and more stacked against kids but as it stands right now, 2006 the opportunity is there is sacrifices are made. I made them. I still pay on my student loans. I don't want to pry into your personal life but I am willing to bet that you drive a nicer car than I do. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 258 Registered: 08-2006 |
Sorry! my truck is 15 yo with a big hole in the floorboard. I too went to school in 80s 90s and 00s and did not have as much luck as you getting through it, perhaps you should write a book to let everyone know how it's done? My loans only through CMU like I say cover 90% of the tuition, thank god for that they at least cover that much, but there's obviously other expenses involved. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "perhaps you should write a book to let everyone know how it's done?" Someone already did, "The Millionaire Next Door", I got it 10 years ago, found out I was doing almost everything right. Except for the divorce. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 259 Registered: 08-2006 |
I think that is in my parent's library funny enough. One question though, did the author of the book have kids to support? | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2426 Registered: 10-2003 |
College doesn't have to cost six figures. Two years at WCCC ($1K/semester) and two more at WSU ($4K/semester) and you have a degree for $20K. Even without any "free" money (grants & scholarships) that's doable for most people, especially if going part-time. Or you work for a while and save up and go full time. That's how I got my grad degree. I worked for 7 years until I had enough money (combined with loans) to afford two years at a good full-time program. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8083 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not trying to beat you up but if your loans cover 90% then your work should only need to cover cost of living and 10% of tuition (2K a year). How can you not get that to work? Even if it is a matter of working 80 hours in the summer then so be it. Your concerns about the ability of future generations to get through college are valid in my opinion. With the declining middle class and rising tuition something will have to give or we will be back in the earlier part of the 20th century minus the manufacturing sector. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2891 Registered: 10-2003 |
A college degree nowadays is hardly the ticket to lower middle class white collar prosperity. Further who sez college grads DON'T join unions. Nurses, Teachers, writers, service workers, etc (hell even college professors) are all examples of unionized college grads. That said, metro Detroiters have the luxury of an absolutely wonderful, broad, and convenient state university program. Without leaving the metro area one can pretty much obtain just about any type of degree (and in some cases at multiple levels) all at state school tuition rates. Most big cities DO NOT HAVE this: NYC, BOS, PHI, CHI, DC/BAL, DAL, MIA all pale in comparison. Only a couple of cities come to mind that are better than DET in this regard: LA and the bay area megapolis of SF/OAK/SJ. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4813 Registered: 09-2005 |
But Track - what about my Ipod, cable, clubs, flat screen, cool car - with rims and neighborhood-thumping sound system of course, and did I mention girlfriend?? Of course, there's the apartment (upscale with party scene at pool) and eating out - cooking at home is so passe - with drinks, of course. I think that takes 20K - per year - now how much was school? oops, and the car/medical insurance is lapsed - make that 25K + school. And forget that community college stuff - gotta "go away" to school, so would ya mind starting over? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 260 Registered: 08-2006 |
Right we gotta blame the lower classes for not getting degrees because they choose to have big base cabinets and girl friends. It couldn't have a thing to do with tuition out pacing inflation five to one yearly. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 105 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "I think that is in my parent's library funny enough. One question though, did the author of the book have kids to support?" Your parents sound like bobos, bourgeois bohemians. There's a book, Bobos in Paradise, that describes them. Rich hippies. Kids really limit your options, that's why I didn't have any. Don't know if the author had any, but it will take longer to get to critical mass if you have them. To each his own. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 261 Registered: 08-2006 |
F_W I gotta hand it to you, you are one of the most intuitive conservatives I've had the pleasure of debating with. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thank you, hope your economic situation improves. But I think the Michigan anchor is going to limit you. Things are not good there. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1211 Registered: 11-2003 |
Don't forget the GOP cutting back on college aid funding and raising the interest rates on student loans in the name of balancing the budget. This does not screw the rich, it screws the people that are struggling to be able to afford college. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1659 Registered: 10-2004 |
Piss and moan. Join the military and have them support college afterwards. Or get a job... | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 262 Registered: 08-2006 |
On the topic of children, yes it is odd that my single childless friends are all doing better (income wise)then those of my friends and myself who have kids. Why do we think our society rewards childless people more then ones with kids? What is the message, don't have kids? Ummm...how is the society supposed to go on if there are no new consumers entering the economy? Worth mentioning too, I think my childless friends envy me more than I envy them. My daughter has brought more fortune to my life then any new SUV ever could. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 598 Registered: 02-2006 |
Cambrian:
You make a good point, but I propose a similar question to you: Can you in good conscience tell that same 7th grader that he'll be okay if he never goes to college, given the way our country is going? Like you were getting at, don't think to how it should be, look at how it is. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2430 Registered: 10-2003 |
Society rewards childless people ... no one can afford college anymore ... the middle class is gone ... life's too hard ... the rich are greedy evil bastards ... workers are always getting screwed, yada, yada, yada... There are a ton of challenges in this world but that attitude isn't helping. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 739 Registered: 02-2004 |
What does going to college have to do with where you work, anyway? Plenty of people complete their four years and can't find employment. The subject is reasonable compensation and representation. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1660 Registered: 10-2004 |
"reasonable compensation and representation" That smacks of the silly notion of "comparative worth"--another pipe-dream goal of radiclibs. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2432 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hmmm, the national unemployment rate is 4.6% and that includes HS dropouts. Only to a unionista. The rest of us are getting on with business. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 263 Registered: 08-2006 |
Right! As long as everything is humming along for you, why give a crap about anyone else? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 264 Registered: 08-2006 |
Focus on Ed, good point, but mine is I don't know what to say to the 7th grader. Do you think it's any more helpful to tell them to plan to go to college with the hopes the laws on wealth distribution or our societies attitudes towards low in come people will somehow change by the time they're old enough? | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 600 Registered: 02-2006 |
It's Focus On The D, you're driving me crazy! ;) I do think it's helpful to prepare children for a life of setting goals and working for them. This is preferable to telling them "don't worry, someone will take care of it for us." God, I'm turning into such a republican. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 265 Registered: 08-2006 |
Too funny! I thought it was "Focus on the education" |
