Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Experts offer advice on how Detroit can boost population « Previous Next »
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 835
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This article is from Crains. None of the expert suggestions noted in the artile really say anything we didn't already know.

By Jennette Smith

3:56 pm, October 27, 2006




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Some of the top minds in the U.S. real estate industry offered their advice Friday on how Detroit and other cities can grow population and attract a range of new development.

Speaking at the second day of the University of Michigan/Urban Land Institute Real Estate Forum, Albert Ratner, co-chairman of Cleveland-based Forest City Enterprises, Stephen Ross, founder and CEO of The Related Cos., and other leaders outlined how making a profit in real estate and doing the right thing for society and the environment can be compatible.

Ross and Ratner, for example, are working on major redevelopment efforts in Los Angeles, which has historically been looked at as an exhibit on what happens when suburban sprawl abandons the core city.

Ratner offered the crowd at Cobo Center some ideas to quicken Detroit’s comeback during his keynote speech. Among them: repopulate not only the downtown, but neighborhoods as well, deal with the racial divide, get more college students downtown, make a compact with the suburbs, fix the schools and “bring in as many immigrants as you can find.”

He also recommended Detroit should aim for 4,000 to 5,000 new housing units a year and urged the region to remember to embrace Ford Motor Co., General Motors Corp. and DaimlerChrysler despite the auto industry’s struggles.

“They need someone to say, ‘We love you,’ he said.

Small-business investment needs to be nurtured as well, and “doers” like Roger Penske, Mike Ilitch and Dan Gilbert need to lead Detroit’s recovery, Ratner said.

“Don’t tell me why you can’t fix it,” he said. “Fix it.”

Ross said the trend toward urban cores and 24-7 lifestyles is helping his company find success in developments in New York City and elsewhere.

“People want great places where they can congregate,” he said.

But Ross said development and government leaders need a conscience as well, and to think more about sustainable projects that are good for the environment and provide places for people of all income levels to live.

Robert Taubman, Taubman Centers chairman, president and CEO, said during a panel discussion that while people are not ready to give up their cars, they definitely want choices that include walkability in cities and suburbs. Taubman is even considering, for economic advantages, more green-building tactics such as a living roof for a center in Long Island.

“If it is logical, we’re going to do it,” he said.
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Rocket_city
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Post Number: 128
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When it comes to repopulating the neighborhoods, the bottom line was not mentioned. That being schools. Realistically, there is no suburbanite (read "white") in their right mind who would even consider sending their child or children to public schools in Detroit. You can't just expect a white family from the suburbs to drop one or two of their kids in an all-black, inner city school. It just doesn't happen. It's not racism on my behalf, it just seems like what the status quo has created.

This aside, schools is going to always dictate the condition of the neighborhoods...well, most neighborhoods.
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Dtown1
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Post Number: 330
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"there is no suburbanite (read "white") in their right mind who would even consider sending their child or children to public schools in Detroit."


On the contrary Rocket city, there is a decent, not nearly enough, but a decent amount of white kinds that attend Cass Tech, and some are probably from the suburbs. so next time, be more specific with what your saying
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 245
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Among them: repopulate not only the downtown, but neighborhoods as well, deal with the racial divide, get more college students downtown, make a compact with the suburbs, fix the schools and “bring in as many immigrants as you can find"

Wow..if only we could have thought about thst before, sounds easy enough...we should probably have it taken care of in the next few years
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3001
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geeze... I guess all it take is everyday common sense, and you too can become a highly paid consultant.... I'm in the wrong business!!
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Jams
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Post Number: 4026
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Outlaw selling condoms in gas stations and liquour stores, we'll repopulate this City in no time.

We'll deal with the other issues later.

<yep,>
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 59
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If we all just think happy thoughts, Detroit will be fine.
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Fortress_warren
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Username: Fortress_warren

Post Number: 84
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the Big 3 don't turn it around, soon, the sluburbs will start depopulating too. Then, the whole metro area will just go into freefall. No telling where the bottom is.

From what I read on this forum and in the Freep and News, it's a real tough sell to get jobs to move to Michigan. Without the jobs, no need for a population.

But I'm sure a couple of you could be Pitcher Fielding Instructors, for the Tigers. Wanna score some runs? Hit it right back to the pitcher, good for at least two runs. Seesh.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 217
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you know Stephen Ross is a Detroit native?!!
His uncle is the late Max Fisher.313
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 3178
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Note how he deftly side-stepped the elephant in the room -- insurance redlining reform.

“Don’t tell me why you can’t fix it,” he said. “Fix it.”

Wow, ^ this guy really doesn't understand metro-Detroit politicians does he? :-)
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Dougw
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Post Number: 1390
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

When it comes to repopulating the neighborhoods, the bottom line was not mentioned. That being schools.



"Fixing the schools" to an extent that will drive the repopulation of the city is essentially an impossible task in the near term, for many reasons (which probably deserves its own thread). Given that, you can make a pretty good case that fixing the schools is a somewhat lower priority than some more basic things the city needs to work on first.

I realize you weren't necessarily arguing that... I just get irritated when other people blather on about just needing to "fix the schools" and people will start moving into the city en masse. Ain't gonna happen. The more modest repopulating of some areas of the city that *will* happen will be driven by other things.

quote:

Realistically, there is no suburbanite (read "white") in their right mind who would even consider sending their child or children to public schools in Detroit. You can't just expect a white family from the suburbs to drop one or two of their kids in an all-black, inner city school. It just doesn't happen. It's not racism on my behalf, it just seems like what the status quo has created.



Exactly. This is one of the many reasons why you can't just "fix the schools" to get everyone to move back to the city.

Of course, we absolutely need to make the schools as good as they can be, but realistically that's more to keep the people that are here from moving out, than to attract new families, at least at this stage in the city's evolution.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4591
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, I completely agree. There is only one realistic thing I read in that whole article and that's the initiative to attract as many immigrants as possible. Truth be told, only a few of the older, more established cities in this country are growing and those the the very old and established (i.e. NYC and a few others). Even cities like Indy with decent urban school districts and city limits annexed out to high heaven are seeing anemic population growth at best. Even cities with large, vibrant central cores (i.e. Philadelphia) are still bleeding residents. Trying to reverse a trend that's been going on in this country for at least the last 50 years is a daunting task at best. Add in Detroit's unique problems, and all that the city can hope for is plugging the population loss to some extent. Really, it's a grim outlook, but a realistic one, I think.
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Tetsua
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Post Number: 836
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This article states every obvious solution for revitalizing Detroit, except how to attract these immigrants, college graduates, and all others. The reason that immigrants (or anybody for that matter), flock to one place is because they see opportunity. Lord knows there's nothing more stressful than needing a job, and not being able to find one.

The route of most of Detroit's problems in my opinion is the lack of jobs. Look how many people over the past few months have come on Detroityes to say that they're moving back to Detroit cuz their company has an open position in Detroit. If we can figure a way to attract more jobs, people will break their backs to get to the D.
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Fortress_warren
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Post Number: 85
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 7:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's jobs, jobs, jobs...... Get that, and everything else follows. Look at Detroit 100 years ago, Ford does his thing and the population goes from 300k to 1.5m in 25 years. Detroit needs something to replace the auto industry, THATS never going up again.

It's not insurance redlining, Lowell. If you owned an insurance company, you'd figure out in the first couple of months why where you live makes so much difference in what you pay. It's the result of reams of loss data the actuarials crunch. They know to the penny how much is paid in each zip code.

Out on 99 Mile Road they spend a lot less per car than they do in or near the CBD. Same reason teenage boys pay 3 times or more than girls. Greater risk.

I'm guessing you're a good driver, no claims, why should you pay so much? You're subsidizing the clowns without insurance. If everyone had insurance, your cost would go down. Almost everyone on 99 Mile Road has insurance, probably less than half in Detroit.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 785
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Embrace the Big 3. Thats really all it will take.
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Lowell
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fortress, it ~is~ about insurance redlining. The concept of insurance is based on pooling of a large groups and calculating the total shared risk. Allowing insurance companies to define these lines allows the insurance companies to stick it to everybody. Those outside the redlines will be happy, silent and fight insurance reform as long as they have the perception that their insurance is lower than those inside the red lines.

I favor a creating a state single insurance zone with considerations for border areas to prevent competitive exploitation by other states. [I would prefer that all insurance be based on a single national zone but that is beyond what we can do in Michigan as it regards federal law.]

Otherwise we end up with the irony where someone commuting from, let's say Holly, to downtown Detroit every day pays a fraction of what someone living in downtown Detroit who commutes to Holly every day.

You are right about jobs, but the jobs are increasingly in the 'burbs, requiring a car which, for low income workers, becomes an impossibility with the unfair rates charged in redlined areas. This is bad for workers and employers.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's partially, and not even mostly, about redlining, which you seem to be overplaying. Do you really believe that families would magically come flocking back to Detroit in droves, tomorrrow, if penalties against redlining were properly enforced? I don't. At least, not enough to even significantly stop population loss.
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Focusonthed
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Post Number: 566
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jobs are the most important. Rather, jobs in the city.

The other cities that were mentioned that are established cities shedding population (Philadelphia, Chicago, etc) have basically been able to keep it together because: by and large, while some people are leaving, the jobs are mostly staying. The millions in the Detroit suburbs commute by car to other suburbs to work. The millions in the Chicago suburbs commute by train (or by car) to Chicago to work (though the Chicago suburbs are not without their employment destinations, mostly in the O'Hare area).
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Dhugger
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rocket_city: "suburbanite (read "white") in their right mind who would even consider sending their child or children to public schools in Detroit."

I sent my 'euro' children to urban schools in Detroit. The education was a mix of public & parochial schools. These young people grew into decent, kind and balanced adults.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2842
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get rid of insurance redlining. The families will come.
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Detroitnerd
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gosh, when I think of other cities that are redeveloping, they don't have the quality of education that would attract a family locating in suburban Detroit. The big joke in New York was that families had to start working from conception to get their kids into these private schools there. I'd argue it's the same with Philly. How can that be Step One for Detroit?
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Ltorivia485
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get rid of insurance redlining, folks.

People are LEAVING THE CITY because THEY CANNOT AFFORD to pay for overpriced services.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That may stop some of the loss, and doesn't even begin to address bringing people into the city. You really think outsiders will magically add Detroit to their list of considerations when deciding to move just because redlining laws are enforced? Redlining is an issue, no doubt, but it's not anywhere as important as quite a few other problems facing the city.
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Ray
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 2:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell,

Actually, the proposal you raise would be true redlining. Essentially, you're viewing insurance as a social justice issue and requiring one group of drivers to subsidize another to achieve a redistribution of income.

The so-called redlining used today is as granualar as possible to most precisely gauge the risk of a given insured. It's not a tool to screw a person in Detroit; it's a tool to project the likely cost of insuring a driver in Detroit.

Rather than insist on a massive subsidy for the city's insureds, why not insist that the city reform it's broken police department to help reduce the incident of car theft and traffic accidents. Why not insist that the region provide decent bus service so that poor people have an alternative to driving without insurance. And why not insist that everyone who drives a car carry insurance.

These would more effective solutions than saddling knowledge workers in Brighton and Howell with the burden of subsidizing urban insureds, giving them one more reason to leave the state of Michigan as quickly as possible.
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Ltorivia485
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray, the city was originally built for almost 2 million people. Now, there is less than 900,000. How is the city supposed to support a police force that is clearly underpowered in a relatively large geographic space?!?!?!!?
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 4:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember today's golden rule: "I got mine, now you get your's." That's how.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In California we had the urban areas stick it to the sluburbs and rural areas with Prop 103, back in '88. They had the votes, so they could.

103 banned the use of zip codes in setting insurance rates, just miles driven, car, driving record.

They "Pulled a Lowell", it's exactly what he wants.

So what's happened in the 18 years since? The zip code component has slowly crept back into it. Initially they did the figures and raised rates in the boonies and dropped them in the urban areas. The miles driven was the reason; driving in from 99 Mile Road. But the urban areas didn't have the big miles a year so they benefitted.


The State Insurance Commissioner, an elective office, also part of 103, gets to look at all the loss data from the whole state and sees where the money for claims gets spent. Surprise, surprise, it goes into the urban areas. 1000 miles driven in the sluburbs was in no way as dangerous as 1000 miles in the city. But the rates charged didn't reflect that. The burb's also didn't have 98% of the collision losses with an accompanying bodily injury claim, it's 30% nationwide. Can you say "fraud"?

The Insurance Commissioner being elected, goes to the person most vocal about beating the living shit out of the insurance companies. But they've been bright enough to know that driving insurance companies out of California wasn't productive, he knew the loss numbers weren't fake, so they had to make "adjustments".

So we had our experiment with social justice insurance, companies couldn't stay in business with that model.

So there.
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Rocket_city
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Post Number: 129
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dougw, I agree with you. I, personally don't think it is schools that determine the health and possibility of repopulating the neighborhoods. But that's beside the point when it seems as if the middle class is driven spatially by schools. It's a sad reality and one that was discussed in depth at the Michigan Association of Planners conference at the Ren Cen earlier this month.

I don't think I needed to be more specific. Anyone that knows Detroit, knew where I was coming from, keeping in mind an unbias mentality. Of course Detroit has white students. That's the tip of the iceberg.
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Salvadordelmundo
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a complicated and thorny issue. I think that absent a fundamental reformation of the local economy, it will be difficult to grow the city's population, as opposed to maintaining it. People go where the jobs are, and jobs beget more jobs.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 212
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Immigration is obviously a key as they state, I would try to target immigrants (not just Mexicans and other Latins) through some ad campaigning in the areas they live in. If Apple can convince tens of millions of people to buy the new Ipod every other week with commercials, I dont see why commercials cant try to coerce hundreds of thousand of people to consider Detroit. Id also target southern blacks and whites from outside of Michigan.

The same goes for jobs attract them not through commercials but through serious campaigning to every company considering relocating or with an expiring lease. If I were mayor Id make a department that did just that lobby Detroit to every company world wide that may relocate and do it aggressively 24/7/365. If it nets 10 percent of the companies we sell ourselves to out of 100000, guess what we got 1000 new companies.

I dont know if my ideas are original or not, if our current city govt does this they should be more aggressive in doing so.
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Danny
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Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My advice to make Detroit grow:

1. A STRONG POLICE FORCE

2. A STRONG COMMUNITY

3. MORE GOOD RETAIL

4. A BETTER SCHOOL DISTRICT.

5. TOSS OUT CORRUPT LEADERS AND REPLACE NEW ONES.

6. REDUCE CRIME

7. EXCELLENT CITY SERVICES

8. LOWER PROPERTY TAX BASE.

If we can do these things then more people would come back to Detroit to stay.
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Detroitstar
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Username: Detroitstar

Post Number: 293
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Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We all know what needs to be done. The problem is figuring out how to actually do it. That is the million dollar question.

There is no easy solution. It took 250 years to make Detroit great. It took 50 years to destroy it. It will take 50 years to rebuild it.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5126
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Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's right, Detroitstar,

It would take 50 years to have Detroit back on its feet. But another race will take over its ghettohoods and no its not the Arabs and Hispanics. It's something else.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 579
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Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trailer parks for everyone!
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1404
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Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

It's partially, and not even mostly, about redlining, which you seem to be overplaying. Do you really believe that families would magically come flocking back to Detroit in droves, tomorrrow, if penalties against redlining were properly enforced? I don't. At least, not enough to even significantly stop population loss.



I think we're in agreement on that point, too. I'd put insurance as maybe #5 or 6 on the list of issues that the city needs to address. It is a problem, but it's mostly a symptom of other problems. My gut feeling is that nothing will be done about it, and the city will very slowly recover regardless of whether anything is done about it, so it won't matter anyway.

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