  Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-2003 |
For fans of the MCS and those with an interest, I will be giving two November shows of my Michigan Central Station slide show: “Decayed Décor: Detroit's Michigan Central Railroad Station” presented by photographer Nick R. Designed by the architects of New York's Grand Central Station, the world's tallest railroad station sits in quiet decay. Through his photographs and research Nick gives us a detailed history with an in-depth exploration of the aesthetic aspects of the continuing decline of Detroit's greatest ruin. Included is a discussion of its impact and relevance to the surrounding neighborhoods, past and present. From the tactile details of melting, hand-made plaster ornaments, the gritty dis-layering of limestone carvings and the heartbreak of smashed and faded marble, these photographs represent many ideas; the shear beauty of lost craftsmanship, the heavy cost of urban disinvestment on our culture's psyche, and the reasons we should take notice of this building before it is forever gone. Photographic prints from the show will be offered for sale. Bring your dust masks and flashlights! Nov. 8th, 7pm Saline Camera Club Orchestra Room, Saline Middle School 7190 Maple Road, Saline 48176 Nov. 9th, 7pm Belleville Area Council for the Arts Belleville Area Museum 405 Main Street, Belleville 48111 734-697-1944 (part of the "Gems of Detroit" series) Both shows are free and open to the public. Refreshments will be served.   http://mcsruins.com/ http://www.journalgroup.com/index.php?id=1626 | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 848 Registered: 12-2005 |
That first photo is truly beautiful. The majestic perspective, even the clouds themselves seem to draw focus to the purpose of the structure! | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 64 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank You! I've worked hard to create an interesting show. | ||
Mikeydbn Member Username: Mikeydbn Post Number: 329 Registered: 04-2004 |
Is that first photo a HDR? | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2003 |
Not familiar with the term HDR. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 216 Registered: 02-2006 |
That picture is really nice, could you image how good it will look after it is renovated? 313 | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 66 Registered: 12-2003 |
I certainly can imagine, and often do. That building has haunted my dreams, inspired my creativity, and ignited my imagination. Would it do the same for me and many others had it never fallen into ruin? Will it do the same if it is ever renovated? Has the building become its own martyr? Come to one of my shows and we can discuss all this and more! | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 230 Registered: 04-2004 |
The photo isn't HDR, just extremely good balance with shadows and skylight. I wish I was that good, LOL. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1105 Registered: 01-2004 |
 Heres MCS in HDR. Ventura - HDR is "high dynamic range", essentially a process of averaging a series of different exposures into one impossibly lit image. The Station IS really hard to photograph well, because its always backlit aside from a few days a year. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 67 Registered: 12-2003 |
OK, not HDR then. Wolverine is right in that it is a careful exposure. All of my photography of the station is pretty straight and always an attempt to use the natural conditions to convey the beauty of the strucuture in what it is, was and could be. It is difficult to photograph the MCS, but patience, filters and more patience can yield good results.  | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1107 Registered: 01-2004 |
Yep yep - good stuff youre shooting. Sunrise and sunset are the best times. Hey - post #67 there V67 ! lol | ||
Beadgrl Member Username: Beadgrl Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2006 |
Gorgeous old building...that's what buildings should look like. I'm so tired of the glass and metal monsters of today. The classy decoration and the small details. I hope when it's "rehabed" they keep it as orginal as possible. | ||
Gargoyle Member Username: Gargoyle Post Number: 33 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ventura67, your sentiments about the MCS seem to mirror mine. This building is one of the last physical connections I have with memories of my father, who died when I was nine. He was superintendant of locomotives for the DT&I railroad and I accompanied him there on many occasions. It never failed to awe me then, in all its glory, and continues to fascinate me now. I can't seem to look away when I pass it, and it makes me feel like a gawker at some horrible accident scene. I hope I can arrange my work schedule to allow attending your presentation. The photographs you have posted here are magnificent. and I look forward to seeing the rest. Any chance you might show them in Detroit? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 705 Registered: 11-2003 |
Beadgrl said, "I hope when it's "rehabed" they keep it as orginal as possible." Who says it's going to be rehabbed? | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2003 |
I do hope to show it in the city one of these days, it's about finding a venue that is interested and appropriate. The more I show it the more interested parties contact me for more information- so maybe one of these days! I had a gentleman attend a showing I had in Ann Arbor last spring who was the Station Master for the MCS in the '70's when Conrail owned it. The Station Master was essentially the head honcho for all railroad-related operations around the structure. He had some amazing stories and information. By the way beadgrl, there is plenty of steel and glass in this monsterous building, it's just artfully tucked in between the beautiful stone and brick-work ;) (Message edited by ventura67 on October 26, 2006) | ||
Beadgrl Member Username: Beadgrl Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2006 |
I guess rehabbing is wishful thinking. I'd like to think that since Hollywood has filmed there a few times in the past few years, that there might be renewed interest in keeping it. Fingers crossed! | ||
Rms Member Username: Rms Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2005 |
Fliming the Ransom Gillis (sp?) house in Brush Park during one of the Beverly Hills Cops movies didn't save it. It sat for near 20 years afterwards, just rotting. In fact, it looked really close to being a goner before the rejuvination of Brush Park has saved it. Sadly, MCS is a pretty amazing Hollywood prop in its current state. Let's just hope that someone with the funds and a great redevelopment plan comes along in time. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2003 |
What I wonder is what the movie makers pay Control Terminals to film there. Anyone know? Do the film crews pay to sweep out the interior or is that done for them by Control Terminals? And, don't worry, the film crews have done their share of "vandalsim" to the interior, ripping out walls to wheel-in cameras for certain shots, for example. (A scene in The Island left this beautiful hole): Before and after   | ||
Nickstone Member Username: Nickstone Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2006 |
The train depot was rumoured to be the new headquarters of Detroit Police but there is just so much damage... passing this place going from downtown (where I live) to southwest to pick up mexican food... it will never happen. The city is not prepared to do the kind of work on the building to make it anything functional. Such a tragedy. Here is a building that would only suffer from that it is not right downtown... otherwise it would be so ideal. I have limited (limited!) faith in Kwame. He announced the renovations in a state of the city address two years ago... should we have any hope left? Not as if they don't need a new headquarters... they do! Cross your fingers... expansion outside of the immediate downtown is slow and dicey. I have higher hopes for David Whitney and the Broderick Tower. We just have to hope that all this hype for the Tigers and Pistons (if, godwilling, they move the Pistons back Downtown soon?) will result in downtown's revamp expanding to Lee Plaza, the train station... you just really have to hope for the best... | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2006 |
When we met with the mayor for our class out of the University of Detroit Mercy last March, one of my classmates raised the issue of this structure. Mr. Kilpatrick said that the city owns all of the land around the building, but not the building itself, as many of you know. He also said that even if they took the entire downtown police force and put them in the building it would be nowhere near enough to fill the building. He also added that if they were to add the fire HQ in there, it would still be relatively not full. Finally, he mentioned that it was constructed with the same steel that was used for the railroad tracks themselves and that an implosion of the building in theory is likely not possible--it would have to be dismantled piece by piece. Sounds like it will be there vacant for a while. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 710 Registered: 11-2003 |
It's possible the tracks may rest on steel structure that extends into the basement of the station. It seems that the station could be imploded without damage to the tracks if any connecting members were severed beforehand, but maybe there'd still be too much vibration. Who knows. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2006 |
Has anyone looked into the possibility of getting the Michigan Central RR station landmark or historical building status? I do not know what Michigan Law requires to get state landmark/historical building status, but I think achieving that is the #1 prerequisite, because it buys us time. Now, the station doesn't look like it's in danger, but situations can change very rapidly. Ensuring that the structure cannot be destroyed should be number one. Then, there is a greater likelihood that they will eventually do something about it. Ventura, I am very sad I don't live in MI and can't come and see your slideshow. I took a bunch of photographs of the building last August on a beautiful day, though I found getting a good frame for my shots difficult given that the station is so big, and given that I wanted to maintain a pretty tight shot. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 70 Registered: 12-2003 |
The MCS is listed as a state and national historic site, see listing #189 at http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/hs o/advancematch.asp?abp=19&cnam e=Detroit&ctype=any&cnty=Wayne I don't know that this affords the building much protection as the owner continues to practice what appears to be demolition by neglect. Cman, I should have a web site up soon with many of the photos from the show. Keep an eye out here for it's announcement. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 712 Registered: 11-2003 |
Cman710 wrote, "Now, the station doesn't look like it's in danger...Ensuring that the structure cannot be destroyed should be number one." It may not be in immediate danger of the wrecking ball swinging, but it's definitely in danger. It's falling apart and the owner doesn't give a damn! The structure may be secure against further vandalism (except from moviemakers), but Michigan weather never stops doing its part to gradually destroy the station. Every drop of water coming in through a leaky roof and open windows, every freeze and thaw cycle is slowly but surely making the station crumble. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2006 |
Burnsie, I did not mean to underestimate the degree of disrepair that the station has reached. Comparing my August '06 photographs to ones even as close as a few years ago reveals that there has been significant decay. This is particularly worrisome, as I am unsure whether the security fence has done much in the way of protecting the building from vandalism. (If anything, the amount of graffiti has greatly increased in recent years. It does seem like the fence could help prevent structural vandalism, though I am unsure.) Anyway, I agree that if the station is left in its current state, that it will eventually begin to crumble. And once that begins, the likelihood of restoration will decrease dramatically. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 71 Registered: 12-2003 |
I was in the station within the last year and while I was there, three males pull up, walk right in, go upstairs and minutes later were throwing things from several stories up , damaging the roof of the concourse further. After their fix they walked out, jumped in their truck and were gone. The next best thing to drive-thru service for vandals. The way they sauntered in and out it seemed like they did it as regular thing. That building is far from secure from vandals, further from the elements and is indeed decaying very, very rapidly. In my slide show the images span 10 years and the changes are remarkable. Now the people of Dresden, Germany rebuilt their opera house which was fire-bombed in WWII. It was rebuilt from the foundation up to look exactly like the original. Nothing is impossible but we're talking Detroit and its record for preservation/restoration here, not Europe. It does not look promising. Anyway, it sure is beautiful as a ruin, if nothing else! (Message edited by ventura67 on October 30, 2006) (Message edited by ventura67 on October 30, 2006) | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2006 |
I am not surprised. When I was there, you could see how people used heavy clothes draped over the barbed wire to jump over the fence. (And that was in the front...I didn't take a close look at the back to see how things were secure, or not secure, there). Seriously securing the building would be difficult, given the large windows on the ground level. It seems that an eight foot or ten foot security fence would be required, at the least. And to help stem the rate of decay of the building itself, I think it would be important to board many of the windows, to help prevent water from entering. That would eliminate the hauntingness of the building as a ruin, but would do a better job at preventing water damage. Good luck with your slide show. I really wish I could see it! | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 |
These last few posts got me wondering: At some point in the future, in theory, Detroit is going to be 'all fixed up.' Back in the 60s and 70s many outside Detroit said that it should essentially be turned into a monument or amusement park of vacant past buildings. Maybe Michigan Central would be a good building to keep as a 'vacant ruin' to remind detroit fifty years from now where we stood back in 2000 and how far we have come... | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great idea. Though residents, business owners and city leaders (are there any?) may not like it, I do. It certainly appears that that's where we're headed with it defined as a historic structure in a city that can't afford to demolish it and an owner who'd rather watch it rot to the ground! Imagine what it would look like in 50 years. It would rival the ruins of Athens at the rate its going! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 904 Registered: 12-2005 |
Or maybe the Colosseum in Rome. Imagine the uproar if someone proposed to refurbish the Colosseum to its original stature? At what point does a decaying structure become a treasured artifact? Can a structure be intentionally designed to produce that result? | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2006 |
If it was practical, I might agree. The building may be a far more compelling ruin than a fixed up residential or commercial complex. Unfortunately, for at least the near future, the station will remain a vacant ruin, reminding us that Detroit remains far from "all fixed up." | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2003 |
A site with some images from the show: http://mcsruins.com/ Enjoy! | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 49 Registered: 03-2006 |
Too elegant of a building to let lay to ruin further. How much would a building like this cost to restore to Class A office space? Other than railroad related businesses, what were the offices used for back in it's glory days? | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 76 Registered: 12-2003 |
Half of the offices were never completed. Through most of its life the office tower was largely occupied by railroad-related workers. Later I think there may have been other businesses in there; architects, lawyers, etc. I believe Rockstarchitect knows more as he works for a firm that was once located in the building. The top floor was used to store correspondence between the Vanderbilt family, earlier owners of the MCS Railroad, and management at the station. All those artifacts were moved to a railroad museum in western Michigan after the building was first closed. So no, there was never much else than railroad people working in the tower. Of course, there was always speculation that the railroad had other uses for the tower in mind when they built it. You'll have to come to my show to learn what! | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2006 |
I took a little photographic tour of MCS during the summer. The opportunities for great shots are endless, and the place is unbelievably fascinating, and totally absorbing. One has the desire to spend hours and hours there, learning every room and stairwell. I hope to see it return to its former condition some time soon... MCS photos | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2006 |
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Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1673 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks, Ventura67, for posting the link to your MCS photos. I attended your program last spring out in Brighton and really enjoyed both your photos and your commentary. Shortly afterwards my husband and I spent some time shooting photos of the MCS from ground level as well as attending the Matrix Theatre's production of "Homelands," which recalls the MCS in the lives of Detroiters. Hey, gsgeorge! Thanks also for posting the link to your MCS photos. I enjoyed them, and was excited to see the skyline shot looking east at downtown. I recently bought a 1928 Manning Brothers photo taken of pretty much the same view...of course the foreground in 1928 is densely populated with buildings and trees. We've been having fun trying to determine which buildings are still standing. Your photo will help us identify specific locations in the 1928 photo. Thanks!!! | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 96 Registered: 03-2006 |
Who owns the station? Who gets the money for the photoshoots? | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 29 Registered: 08-2006 |
Kathleen, any possibility of posting or providing a link to a digital version of the Manning Bros. photo? I'd love to see it, it sounds fascinating!! Thanks for the comments, too. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gsgeorge: I'll see what I can do with the 1928 photo. In the meantime, I checked out the WSU Virtual Motor City Archive at http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/ i/image/image-idx?c=vmc and through a Keyword Search on the term "Corktown" retrieved 5 photos. The 5th photo provides an interesting aerial perspective of Corktown looking down Michigan Avenue in the 1950s, with the Train Station in the lower right corner. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 233 Registered: 04-2004 |
Although the station appears to be in rough shape from down on the ground, it's pretty surprising to see that the condition of the facade is really not all that bad closeup. I hope it can hold out longer until hopefully, just maybe something is done with the place. Here's a photo from last year. http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.g ne?id=278041422&size=l | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2003 |
On the whole the exterior facade is in pretty good shape, but the south side of the top of the tower has had nearly all of the balconies kicked-out by some of the most viscious vandals the building has seen. I am unsure of what kind of people feel that such destruction is justified, mature or intelligent.  (Message edited by ventura67 on November 04, 2006) | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2006 |
It really burns my buns every time I see movie scenes with New Yorks Grand Central Station, and our jewel "lies in the dirt" and waits like a wanderer in the desert for it finally die, dry up, and blow away, without anyone noticing or really caring. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2003 |
That's why I hope my slide show of the building will help encourage people to take a closer look and maybe do a little part to help keep this building from fading away quietly and unnoticed. The building's history is very fascinating and its story is as much a reflection of the society that created it as the society that let it fall to ruin. Consider that when it was built (1913) there were only 200,000 production automobiles built, the first mile of pavement was laid in the U.S. on Woodward Ave., and most people still traveled through town by horse and carriage. Also, people communicated over long distances by telegraph and notice how you now so non-chalantly type on the global internet. The world has certainly changed but there is no reason this building could not have been (or should not be) saved! | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2006 |
What is curious to me is if MCS only had half of the offices in the tower finished when it was built, why did they built it so big? Even at the height of Detroit's glory days, MCS wasn't even filled? Did train soot keep officey types away? Ventura67, there's a guy, uncle to my best friend, in Westland who is an utmost expert on trains and railroads. Perhaps he has even more interesting stuff on MCS, maybe. Would you like to contact him? | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 1324 Registered: 12-2003 |
I've always heard that the biggest obstacle to renovating the station for any useful purpose was the underground fuel tanks that were used to fill up the trains. According to a friend in the construction business, these tanks are still holding fuel, are in bad shape, and are leeching into the surrounding grounds. Just curious if that could be true, because I never hear this problem ever mentioned when a renovation is discussed. Anyone ever hear anything about that ? | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2003 |
Catman, As I stated in an above post it is suspected the railroad had other plans in mind with the tower and, if true, those plans never materialized. That's a bit of information I'll save for my narrative in the slide show. I'd like to contact your friend's uncle. My email can be found at the MCS Ruins link at the bottom of the very first post on this thread. Bongman, I've never heard that before but it is very fascinating, and definitely believable. I would have to wonder: since the building closed in the late '80's it would seem to me that that much fuel would have been too valuable for a cash-strapped Amtrak not to pump out and move to active tanks. Maybe it couldn't be pumped out, maybe it was obsolete or stale fuel. It would also seem likely that Amtrak had a pretty good idea of when they were leaving that station and certainly would not have purchased more fuel than they would need in that time (assuming the fuel in question is from that era). Then again- we are talking about a government-run agency. In short, believable, but maybe unlikely. Is it confirmed or believed that those tanks are full of leaking fuel? | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 97 Registered: 03-2006 |
Generally, or at least here in the west, Amtrak does not hold stocks of fuel. They purchase it from the railroads that they travel on. In all likelihood, those were Conrail's tanks. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tonight! Nov. 8th, 7pm Saline Camera Club Orchestra Room, Saline Middle School 7190 Maple Road, Saline 48176 | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2006 |
Ventura67, did you get my email? | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 237 Registered: 04-2004 |
Ventura, by any chance, do you know how extensive the basements of the station are? My first visit was about the only time I ever saw the significant parts directly beneath the main structure. It was basically very large rooms and hallways (very high ceilings) with huge oversized columns. It was pitch black and the camera flash was not strong enough to see just how deep these rooms went. Additionally they were filled with up to 3 feet of water in certain areas, so I never got to see just how extensive the basement was. For the most part, people usually just go right up the stairs into the station. But I was wondering if you took anytime to discover the underground areas more. It seems like some hallways and rooms have the feeling that they almost go on forever. There also appears to be areas that have been recently sealed that had connected to surrounding structures. I've always been as equally fascinated by this area. As dark and creepy as it appears, the peeling paint and dangling light fixtures show what was once probably a bright and busy place and the epicenter of the station's utilitarian energy. | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 52 Registered: 03-2006 |
You gotta wonder if these deep underground places of abandoned buildings have people of the strangest and weirdest sort living there. shiver! You know, they can kill you and most likely get away with it because those areas certainly contain forgotten tunnels and passageways. Police certain don't regularly patrol there! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 972 Registered: 12-2005 |
Foucault's Pendulum is filled with such underground treasures. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 722 Registered: 11-2003 |
The fuel tank problem, if there is one, is a relatively small side issue. Any diesel fuel tanks used for locomotives aren't located under the station, but in the platform and yard track area-- which would likely remain a strictly railroad-controlled area, even if the station was renovated. The biggest obstacle to renovating the station is its asshole owner and his not giving a shit about securing it from weather and vandals for the past 12 or however many years he has owned it. Another obstacle is that the city has never bothered to enforce any code issues. Also, apparently the previous owner(s) after Amtrak also did not give a shit about securing the building. Thus the cost of renovation has gone far above what it would be if it had been soundly mothballed. And the building is in an out-of-the-way location, just far enough from downtown to be largely ignored by the redevelopment/revitalization powerbrokers. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2003 |
Man, you guys would really like my show and discussion! Catman, yes and thank you. I've not had a chance to look into it. Wolverine, The basement is truly on of the more fascinating aspects of the structure. You imagine it quite accurately as it is one of the least disturbed parts of the structure, is extensive, and had some of the most crucial operational facilities. Come out tonight as I talk about it a whole lot. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tonight! Nov. 9th, 7pm Belleville Area Council for the Arts Belleville Area Museum 405 Main Street, Belleville 48111 734-697-1944 (part of the "Gems of Detroit" series) Free, open to public, and with refreshments and great conversation! |
