Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Are Detroit suburbs really in decline? « Previous Next »
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 228
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.npr.org/templates/s tory/story.php?storyId=6212418

I just finished reading this article about how Detroit's white collar jobs are leaving and it's definately hurting. Is this as bad as it sounds, or is this an exaggeration? Dephi, Ford, and GM sales slumping hurt the blue collar workers in the 80's, but now it seems to finally be catching up with the executives. What do you guys think. Is this a major problem, or is this a pessimistic east coast view of Detroit?
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2929
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Milwaukee, the entire region is hurting. There are for sale signs in Detroit, in the Grosse Pointes, in Canton and in Bloomfield Hills.

I wouldn't say that the region is in decline (except maybe slightly population wise), but there are folks struggling, and heading for the exits...
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

Post Number: 589
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I added up the buyouts at GM, Ford and Delphi this year and total came to 105,000. This total doesn't include job losses at small autoparts suppliers or the local restaurant. Some of these folks will retire with generous benefits but some won't. Also, how many of these people are heading South to retire?
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1591
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The job losses will have to get worse when Ford puts up its entire ~75,000 UAW workforce for payouts the next few weeks. And then there's the old saw that relates the arbitrary ten for one job losses at the Tiers. Obviously, that won't happen to that degree, but the Tiers will probably suffer job losses at least as severe as what ensues for the assembly lines.

And, of course, many of those jobs will be in Metro Detroit, such as those at the Wixom plant, for just one.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on October 11, 2006)
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2150
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The area is certainly in decline, but we will look back at this decade as a transitionary one, where the patterns of rampant sprawl were finally broken, and eventually a new type of economy was finally ushered in.

Regarding the real estate concerns Gistok touched on, I think that the market is pretty stagnant in places in and near Detroit/Dearborn/Grosse Pointe because of the economic uncertainty, but in the end they will be okay. The entire region though is hindered by an oversupply because of the building boom of the last 15 years now running into population decline and high gas prices. I think some of exurbia and even the middle-ring of 1960s suburban housing may become obsolete over the course of time.
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Fortress_warren
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Username: Fortress_warren

Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a realistic assessment of your future. The Metro area has a lot futher to fall before it bottoms out. Sorry.

Detroit metro was the biggest company town on the planet for like 75 years, 1910 to about 1985. Silicon Valley passed it then. And as the company fortune wanes, so does the surrounding area.

If you ever get out to the Left Coast, take a trip to Virgina City. It's about an hour south of Reno. There were 50,000 people mining silver 125 years ago. The silver ran out and now there's maybe 1000 people living there, mainly in touristy type of jobs.

Until the people in Michigan get smart and get rid of most of the job killing laws, taxes, and most of all, the unions, no one with a brain, well hardly anyone, is going to move there and replace all the ex-pats. You have to compete with other states that don't have all those negatives. All you red diaper babies put yourself in the head of somebody trying to figure out where to locate the new factory, office, etc. Michigan is the first state off the list. Texas looks nice, Florida too. Geez.
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 137
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's encourage more negativity! We're only going to decline further! In fact, we can only hope NPR runs more balanced stories about the Metro Detroit region, because by god there's not a single good thing happening here, right?

Fully acknowledging the fact that there are problems here, I'm sick and absolutely tired of the same old summary of why Michigan is doomed for failure.

I'm really, really glad the article started with the phrase "Downtown Detroit is synonymous with poverty and bombed-out buildings" because that's just a plain cool assessment of our city. Bah.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1595
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I brought up the Detroit ghost-town analogy several times only to be rebuffed with stupid claims that Detroit has "lots" of empty land or vacant properties just ripe for development.

[eyes rolling over and over...]
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Jeffery47
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Username: Jeffery47

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think using the term "executives" is a bit misplaced. Not everyone who works in the auto industry is a blue collar line work or a high-powered executive. A lot are engineers, designers, quality analysts, etc. who are feeling the pinch, without the cushion of a jobs bank, or other union benefits.

The problem is there are a lot of engineers, for example, flooding the market with resumes. A lot have only worked at one place - Ford, GM, etc. Anyone hiring them elsewhere may be leery of someone who can't adapt to a new environment, having done things the same way for so long. They are tainted, so to speak.

A lot of these same people kept moving up house-wise, buying boats, cottages, etc. and assuming the gravy train would continue forever, even into retirement.

A lot of people are looking to move on, hoping they can find something somewhere. That applies to the plant workers as well, a lot live right at the limit, with the cottage, boat, snowmobiles, etc. and vacations, not to mention mortgages to the hilt.

A lot of supplier jobs, white and blue collar, will be affected, not just the plants. Plus all the jobs relating to servicing those jobs - food service, etc. A big trickle down - buckle up.

I think it will get a lot worse before it levels off, but the area will be less populated working in different areas, and automotive will be a shadow of its former self.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 197
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's just a shame we can't plow all the empty neighborhoods and factories under. Turn Detroit back into the small light-manufacturing center it was in the 1880s surrounded by farming Townships. All the vacant real estate makes us look like a ghost town for sure. Rather then an empty machine shop, I'd much rather see a wetland there. That's what developers like too when planning new construction. I think that is going to be the challenge for large cities moving forward in this new “Making things here is evil and too expensive economy”. The onus ought to be on the leaving industry. If you are dumping your large K mart store building in a crappy real estate market with no immediate signs of improvement, there ought to be a plan to convert that site back to nature. Same should go for cities that have neighborhoods with lots of abandoned homes. Then selling off plots of beautiful Rouge Park would never be necessary as green space would be widely available in the vacated components plant site nearby that the responsible land owner knowing that no one would buy the outdated facility he closed, had it redeveloped as a meadow land.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 229
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I definately don't want this to become a Detroit is dying thread, so I would like to hear about the sectors of the Michigan economy that are doing well. The article starts off with "Downtown Detroit is synonymous with poverty and bombed-out buildings". I was in downtown just a few months ago, and that's definately not true, I saw a hell of alot of good stuff happening. Are there jobs coming into Michigan, or are these developments in downtown Detroit just artificial to make people think things are better?
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1597
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Face it! Over 1/2 of Michigan's population lives in just four counties near Detroit.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5063
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are Detroit suburbs really in decline? Some are but most are growing. If any city doesn't have job base. Then the population would decline.
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 138
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see growth all over. I have examples, but not much time at work. I'll try and gather up some articles when I get home.
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 1455
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Are there jobs coming into Michigan, or are these developments in downtown Detroit just artificial to make people think things are better?




What are you talking about?
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Fortress_warren
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Username: Fortress_warren

Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"just artificial to make people think things are better?"

No, they're actually making an effort. It's just all the rest of the news kind of overwhelms it. There are serious structural problems in Michigan that have to solved, and until the population stops being in denial about that....
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Janesback
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Username: Janesback

Post Number: 108
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just happened to watch a special dealing with this very problem.

Lately, it is obvoius that many of the jobs outsourced to India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Phillipines, etc... were jobs dealing with blue collar type jobs, such as telemarketing, tech services, bank services, and so forth

Because large companies have seen profits grow, they are gettting more greedy. Seems they are now sending jobs over there that requre a college degree here. Finance, such as auditing and tax people, individuals doing taxes, accounting, paralegal, and more are now being sent to China

Why China? Well, in the last 10 - 20 years, many millions , and I mean millions of farmers have migrated to large cities taking menial jobs to support their families. Their children now have attended universities and colleges that teach these studies, i.e, finance, legal, business. They, the children of pervious farmers are now accepting jobs that are considered white collar here in the U.S, and doing them over there. I am in this field, I see it happening all the time. Chinese students excelled in their studies, now they are doing our jobs, not only the simple jobs, such as telemarketing and tech services, but here goes our white collar jobs....... Dont believe me, call a 1-800 number for a bank, and listen to the accent. Major banks are the worst, as well as forcing their customers to use the computer to do thier own personal ONLINE banking..........

I am not for globalization, but these are some of the results of globalization.......

Funny thing, they say we stay competitive when we outsource our jobs overseas, but how many of those countries send their jobs here????
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 232
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"or are these developments in downtown Detroit just artificial to make people think things are better?"

Sorry Hysteria, That's pretty broad. I mean the renovated facades of buildings downtown, Campus Maritius Park, and new street scaping. I think these are all good things, I was just wondering if they're happening because of Federal dollars or real investment in the city. From these answers it sounds like private investment. Metro Detroit defenately didn't seem to be declining any more when I was last there. Obviously, I can't get a grasp on the region's economic situation in a couple days looking around town.

Hysteria, how'd your trip to milwaukee go?
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 1456
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The trip was cancelled in favor of a phone/web conference (not my decision).

Oh well.
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Thumb_billy
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Username: Thumb_billy

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

why is 696 so backed up in the morning? People on the job search?
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 4403
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba just got back from Youngstown, Ohio where from 1977-1984, 50,000 steel workers were sent packing. Houses in middle income areas are going for $40,000 and mansion homes along 5th Avenue, $125,000. (Great prices except you gotta live in Ohio.) jjaba toured the Mc Donald Mill of US Steel where 90 shop floor workers in a corner of a bldg. have replaced the fired 3,500 from the old days. These 90 workers try to make a living with 1917 technology.

Without some struggling hospitals and YSU, the town would fully be empty. Albert Kahn and Daniel Burnham office blocks stand in a vacant downtown. There is not one hotel/motel in the City of Youngstown, Ohio. The onliest new bldgs. are govt. bldgs.

Wgaes run from $10-12 range. Shop floor wages in the range of $10.21 Wal-Mart standards.

Youngstown went from 175,000 to 80,000 today. So where did they go?
Most told me Las Vegas. (Watch for Buckeye fans at the tables.)
Youngstown is much worse than Detroit by a long shot.

jjaba.
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Titancub
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Username: Titancub

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Globalization means competition, and if you don't like competition and just think the lucky few in Michigan, midwest, USA should be succesful and fortunate then you may be out of luck. Unfortunately our region (via the union mentality) loves the entitlement approach and thinks we should have X,Y,Z, well, just because we think we should.

There are too many distressing economic signals for the metro area (suburbs included), although I guess someone could argue that there are a few select micro-markets that are bucking the trend, but those would be minimal. The inventory of homes for sale is alarming, there is very limited new homes coming on the market relative to other MSAs, and there is negative job growth. Vacancy and rent rates are in negative directions for all sectors retail/industrial/office. So the economic indicators are distressing.

BUT, it is not all doom and gloom. I really have faith in the area simply because the people are too strong and proud to simply not fight it out. Frankly its better that we get through all this restructuring and reshaping of our economy now rather then push it off for the future. It had to happen but at least its finally happening now and the region is having a real 'come to jesus' moment. We'll emerge from this stronger and poised to grow. Will it ever be the gilded age of the 1950's or 1990's around here? Perhaps not to that extent, but we'll be evolved, stronger and on better footing.

And yes, we're all impressed with NPR using the tried and true and VERY creative 'bombed out buildings' to describe our city, we only needed a devil's night reference to round out that fine reporting.
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 153
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, Dearborn is doing justr fine because of all the mid-eastern influx.

There was an article in one of the Detroit nespapers a few weeks ago that Dearborns Pouplation has actually increased over the last 2 years goin from something like 89,000 to 115,000. Developemet in Dearborn in doing well also, they have bulit parking structures with retail on the main floor where the old Jacobsons used to be and the old F&M Accross the street was torn down just recently also...a new mixed use complex is going up in its place. The article also included a list of other "older" suburbs that are experienceing losses in population. A few off the top of my head are:
Dearborn Heights, Westland, Garden City, Redford, Lincoln and Allen Park, The Grosse Pointes, Hazel Park, Royal Oak, Hunington Woods, Berkley, West Bloomfield, Roseville, Warren, and Eastpointe...those are the only ones I remember seeing...
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 202
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Entitlements! Like stock options, golden parachutes retirements even if you make bad corporate decisions? All helped in part by entitlements expected from the government, no income taxes on dividend payments, tax breaks for investing in Asia, employee at will clauses, no required health care. Those kinda entitlements?
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4558
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric, you've got something slightly wrong. Dearborn, according to SEMCOG, has finally topped 100,000, once again, but that's still a modest growth from 2000 (97,000). Just something that needed to be corrected.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 235
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wazootyman I'm definately interested in those articles about Metro Detroit growing. I just want you to know, I didn't bring this thread up to say "oh michigan is dying" but more to call out this bullshit article. Detroit has it's problems, but it's definately doing better. The region is moving forward and doing better, but I wanted to check with some Detroiters about how things are actually going. I think a guy from Milwaukee knows as much as some NPR reporter from Washington knows about the city (this meaning not alot).

Sorry to hear about that Hysteria. :-(
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 154
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its been a few weeks since I read it and I tried to find it online but couldn't...
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1544
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Entitlements! Like stock options, golden parachutes retirements even if you make bad corporate decisions? All helped in part by entitlements expected from the government, no income taxes on dividend payments, tax breaks for investing in Asia, employee at will clauses, no required health care. Those kinda entitlements?




Many non-union employees have contracts and employment agreements as well. They still have to abide by them.

Cambrian, do you or have you ever had stock options, they are not the panacea many believe them to be.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8002
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

do you or have you ever had stock options, they are not the panacea many believe them to be.




All of mine are currently worth a grand sum of $0
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 206
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points! Mine was just that I read people's posts on here, and some say that expecting job security and medical coverage is an "entitlement mentality". Did we call it an "entitlement mentality" when companies were handing out the hugest bonuses to the executive that were able to force the largest # of their suppliers to open plants in China, so that GM would save a couple bux on a car stereo?
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 242
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many jobs are being created by the new hotels, construction crews, and casino's downtown?
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Detroitbill
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Username: Detroitbill

Post Number: 41
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think we are in a material transition time, there is defiinetly some decline due to auto related jobs but actually compared to 15 years ago we actually have some diverse companies we didnt have then,,, Investors are still building and investing in Detroit and its burbs,, its a strange parallel but does add to some diversification, Detroit Downtown is an interesting example, with all the casino development and some office/residential relocation its actually a better place to be than 10 years ago,(trust me I have lived here for 18 years). There will definelty be some house cleaning in some areas, values will drop in some areas but we are far from dead,, There is enough here to restructure, but that will take time

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