  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1002 Registered: 06-2004 |
Ilitch scores as Tigers' fortunes soar Up next: Team owner buys land behind his Fox Theatre for possible future home for Red Wings. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060929/O PINION03/609290378 | ||
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73 Post Number: 130 Registered: 03-2006 |
It sounds like he's planning on buying more land, but hasn't yet. I'd say its a bit premature to say that its a done deal by any means. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 127 Registered: 01-2004 |
As a self described preservationist, you would think Mike would try to be innovated and squeeze an arena in that area with little demolition? Unfortunately, I have a feeling there will be some unnecessary demolition in the name of “parking “if he does build there. Although, this is my preferred area, I just hope the destruction is limited or Chuck Forbes comes in again and moves some stuff around to preserve and make room. | ||
Everydayislikesunday Member Username: Everydayislikesunday Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2004 |
http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=2006609290462 | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10685 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Ilitches were urban developing pioneers. We should be thankful to have them. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 3775 Registered: 11-2004 |
In one sense I guess you can call the Ilitches "pioneers" and in another sense you can also call them slum lords as well. They were smart in the sense many moons ago when they took over the Fox, they nearly had it condemned to get it on the cheap from the City and THEN rebuild it. The Fox is undeniably a beautiful place now but then the Ilitches have also had a horrendous record with places like the Lenox and many other historically significant buildings as well. I would consider them more savvy business people before I would consider them any sort of urban pioneers or visionaries for our fair city. | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 391 Registered: 11-2003 |
I personally see the Ilitch familiy as developers that have done one good restoration (the Fox). Everything else is in very bad taste so far. (Message edited by chub on September 29, 2006) | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 3780 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Chub. I couldn't agree with you more. And don't get me wrong, I love Comerica Park but the way they went about getting all of that public money to help pay for it stinks a little bit. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10688 Registered: 10-2003 |
Bad taste, good taste, fact is they have a $1.5 billion empire in Detroit and have arguably invested more than anybody else into Detroit. What's the real difference if they own a dozen run down/abandoned buildings or 12 different people own them. In case you haven't noticed, investing in Detroit going hand in hand with "it's a good idea" has only been around about 5 years or so. As they stated in the article, many ventures would have failed had they been attempted in passed years. How many clubs have been sold, changed names? Cock'n Bulls is closed. Cafe de Troit, closed. Centre Steet Pub, closed 2 or 3 times over 5 years. Steel (Bat Lounge) opens and closes randomly year after year. Congress...closed (remodeling?). Intermezzo...closed (remodeling for years...LMAO) The Coffee place near Cheli's that folded up shop. The list goes on and on. Everybody thinks all people have to do is redevelop a building, rent it out for residential/commercial and it's a slam dunk. You see anybody rushing to lease space in Madison's on Broadway? That's been sitting for 9 months now, just as many places along Woodward Ave, the main road into town! Yet people don't wanna hear that, they just wanna bitch and complain about the people not doing anything with their buildings. They'll be other businesses that come and go, failing due to lack of consumer base. We are gaining momentum, but there still isn't the residential base to even support many of the bars and restaurants the city has, as there will be more failures in coming years. So how about we give Mr Ilitch some slack here? His track record, with the bad included, is still better than 9 out of 10 people investing in Detroit. | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 644 Registered: 12-2003 |
I don't understand why, with all the vacant land behind the Fox, the new arena couldn't be located there without mass demolitions, or even with minor street closures. I'm not sure what the footprint of the Joe is, but simply from photographs it looks like with a little massaging, the designers might be able to shoe-horn it into the existing street grid. Bring the building wall right up to the perimeter sidewalk. This might cause some space restrictions inside, but with some outside-of-the-box thinking & creativeness, like an overhanging upper deck (reminiscent of the old Oly), it could make it a great place to watch an event, closer to the action, louder crowd, etc.  I realize with today's desires & necessities like WIDE concourses and mega luxury boxes, this is unlikely, but I'd like to see them take up the challenge of placing this with a sympathetic look at the street grid, and without blowing up the remaining neighborhood (what's left of it anyway). [Image courtesy of Flybydon: http://www.aerialpics.com/B/casinos.html] | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 85 Registered: 03-2006 |
Picture is worth a 1000 words, thanks. What strikes me about that pic is the size of the casino development at the bottom of the pic, its huge. | ||
Ltrain Member Username: Ltrain Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well said Supersport. | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 120 Registered: 05-2005 |
There are a lot of surface lots behind Fox, but I would think you would have to build over at least one street to make it fit. What site Illitch is talking about regarding a Rock HQ building? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8837 Registered: 10-2003 |
FYI Sport, bars and restaurants open and close all the time, it is the nature of that business. A business with very slim margins for profit. But how does your analogy equate with other buildings that Ilitch owns and has done nothing with? Just curious... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1789 Registered: 10-2003 |
What Sport doesn't elaborate upon, however, is how much business and investment Ilitch has driven away. It's difficult to put a hard number on this, but when you have one guy going around town, buying up properties and demolishing them for parking lots, it ain't so encouraging to other investors. Who the hell is going to invest money in a place that's quickly becoming Parking City? No one in their right mind is going to expect foot traffic in front of their place when Ilitch is so content on creating nothing but isolated pods of entertainment, surrounded, of course, by enormous moats of (sometimes) landscaped and lighted parking. The Macedonian Parking Cartel has completed exactly ONE decent project in Detroit. How long are people going to kiss their asses for that? For that reason alone, he knows he can get away with murder--and all you Ilitch cheerleaders are complicit in whatever piece of suburbanized shit ends up behind the Fox. But hey--I'm sure the parking will be fantastic, and for a minimum of 20 bucks, it better damn well be. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10692 Registered: 10-2003 |
Give me a break! You make it sound like Olympia owns 90% of downtown. In reality, they own an area surrounding their HQ and Stadium. There are plenty of spots for investors to step right in to. There are like 50 spots down the 3 or 4 blocks of Woodward from Grand Circus Park to Campus Martius. Many of which have been renovated and had "For Lease" signs in them for 2 years now. Don't give me that "His parking lots are driving investment away" bullshit. His parking lots have ZERO to do with unleased space in the heart of downtown. ps...Does the 2.6+ million fans for the Tigers and 800,000 plus fans the Red Wings draw not count towards foot traffic? In all actuality, the Ilitches probably are responsible for more foot traffic in this city than anybody else. (Message edited by supersport on September 29, 2006) | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8839 Registered: 10-2003 |
You said it first Sport. The downtown does not have enough population to support business, yet Ilitch owns those buildings that would increase that population to support those businesses. Sure there are other buildings that would hold residences but not to the extent of the ones Ilitch has in his grasp. Ilitch has done some good things for downtown (some with taxpayers $$$) but his impact could be far better for the city. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1790 Registered: 10-2003 |
Way to overgeneralize, sport. Ilitch's holdings do not constitute a tiny land area, even if they are not 90% of downtown. Most everything between Grand Circus and the Fisher Freeway is a parking wasteland. Even with the foot traffic from Events, you don't exactly see people rushing to open shop in the area. Maybe there's more to a city than 2.6 million + 800,000 people walking to-and-from their cars on game day. Even assuming every fan actually does venture off their beeline to the car (because some actually do) that's a daily average of 9300 pedestrians. Is that worth the pillaging of the landscape that Ilitch has been afforded? If you want 9300 people a day in the area, you could build an entire neighborhood that size just on Ilitch's empty lots. But hey, if you'd rather base an economy on suburbanites driving in and driving out, having a beer-or-two postgame, knock yourself out. Detroit *obviously* knows something the rest of the world doesn't. It's damn near criminal (some would say it actually is) what Ilitch is allowed to get away with. How many other cities let derelict property owners rape their landscape the way Ilitch has to Detroit? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10693 Registered: 10-2003 |
(this is where I'm gonna play the "you don't live here" card) So, why don't you move here, buy one of the MANY buildings that the Ilitches DON'T own, and help make a difference? Thank you in advance, we need more "go getters" like yourself whom are willing to make the sacrifice in hopes of making Detroit a better place. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 24 Registered: 09-2006 |
I agree totally with SuperSport, like or hate the Illitch style of development,they have single handedly done more for the city ( and their own pockets) than anyone else, They are business people and act accordingly but they have displayed their loyalty to the city time and time again, they could easily take many of the venues to the burbs but repreatedly decided not too. There is no way smaller developers would have the staying power the Illitches have,,Their constant development and acquisitions have provided much needed capital and provided a positive image to other developers, I doubt if Compuware would ever have happened without the example they started . Just take away the whole Illitch scenario away from Downtown Detroit,,we would be in big trouble | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 25 Registered: 09-2006 |
Just wanted to add also, I find it humourous that some people seem to think they have monopolized downtown, there is still a ton of open space any serious developer with some imagination could work on,,, Everytime I have an out of town guest from a larger city one of the first things they notice is how much empty space there is downtown,,If the Ilitches manage sweetheart deals with the city , good for them, with the exception of Karmanos and GM and now our casinos there are few other big investors doing alot,, there is a ton of room for smaller investors also, many of them have fixed up buildings that look nice that remain vacant, that surely would indicate something is missing, I think Illitch has provided the best avenue for foottraffic we have to date, No one else (other than the above mentioned and greektown) seems to be able to,, If you keep building they way these people are , eventually with the Casinos you will see a marked increase in foottraffic, Our problem is not with our local developers, its with external large retailers who still visualize downtown as it looked in 1985 and again , only the big dealers in this town will show them otherwise,,, | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1791 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, Sport, I did have the opportunity to stay in the D. Thanks to the ever-progressive attitudes that are prevalent in Detroit, though, I knew it wouldn't work. Living in a city of parking lots ain't exactly my idea of paradise. Apparently the same is true for the folks who leave for places where the Macedonian Parking Cartel doesn't have the city government strung up by the balls. The truth is, a guy like Ilitch would lose his ass in a city where people actually develop shit. Well, that and someone who designs buildings for a living isn't going to find much work in a town that subsidizes destruction with tax dollars. I just don't understand how anyone can love this guy so much when all he does is beg for public handouts, and then destroy your city so that he can create his own little private Disneyland next to the freeway. This is the person who is going to improve Detroit? What the hell has he been doing for the past 30 years? | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 79 Registered: 04-2005 |
Thinking positively, we have the opportunity now to have the entire North side of Downtown explode in growth due to the fact that most of the land is controlled by just a few parties. If the Illitch family, Forbes, and the few smaller guys have the desire to remake the area, it will happen. If the land wasn't controlled by just a few parties, it would take much longer, and be much harder to transform the area. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10695 Registered: 10-2003 |
You could have summed all that up by saying: "I decided to be a spectator from the east coast." People like you, looking in from far away, you always seem to have all the answers. You ever think about moving back and getting into Detroit politics? Seems you'd have 50% of the problems fixed over night. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1792 Registered: 10-2003 |
No, I decided to live in a city that actually is rebuilding itself. Here's my beef with Ilitch. Commercialism Park, Ford Field, the Madison-Lenox demo, and (in the future) the new arena, were all sold to the public as tools of economic development. We were told they would bring in suburbanites who spend money. We were told it would generate foot traffic. One would think, then, that this is a golden opportunity to build restaurants, bars, apartments, retail--you name it--in the immediate environs. This would build still more foot traffic and become self-sustaining over time. So WTF happened? Walk down to Comerica Park right now and note the overwhelming lack of activity. Was that worth the public investment? Millions of public dollars were handed to Ilitch. And for what? Parking lots. Yee ha. We were told images of Wrigleyville and actually given a moonscape. If that's your idea of success, then I can't help you. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 26 Registered: 09-2006 |
Illitch gets public handouts because the powers that be like his development ideas when other people bring little to the table, Lets face it, Detroit is a very hard sell, its not Manhattan nor Chicago but has a very unique angle to it that some of us see and that number is definelty growing,,Without the Illitch development we would have seen a few trendy buildings whose purpose probably would have ended in a couple years, Illitch understand big developments draws bigger crowds, its all about perception, My friends from Canada and myself after the Tigers game spent two hours touring downtown, they hadnt been downtown in 4 years, All they talked about on the way back to my place is how good downtown is starting to look, It really proved my point, Positive energy develops more positive energy. I really dont care about people from out of town who luv to knock our city, there is plenty of us who are changing things, | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10697 Registered: 10-2003 |
You haven't been here in the past 5 years have you? Stevie Wonder could see the massive amounts of progress made over the past 5 years downtown, much of which can be attributed by the momentum and renewed interest in downtown thanks to the stadiums. You sound about as informed as the appraiser I ran into a few weeks ago at the DBC, whom I tried to convince that housing prices and building permits were on the rise and leading the region. She retaliated with "Yeah, but those building permits are only for burned out crackhouses." I simply walked away and told her "You truly are clueless," just as I'm going to do now. Oh how quickly people forget what kind of shape downtown was in 5 years ago, prior to the stadiums. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 27 Registered: 09-2006 |
I have to disagree about the walk around Comerica Park having a overwhelming lack of activity??? Its packed when activities are going on, so are the bars and restaurants,, When i go to these other cities they are the same way on off days, Just north of this area is a very large urban development (Crosswinds) that is continuing to build,, to the south east is Lafayette Park, a very successful neighbourhood, in the immediate area are numerous loft conversions, this all adds over time, this would have been unimaginable five years ago, We need retail ,, residential is staring to happen nicely. It took a long time to devistate the city,, it doesnt reverse itself overnight. You do what you need to do in encouraging good developments, this sometimes involves large tax breaks , incentives etc,,, Other more successful downtowns may not need to do this but we do,,,I have no problem with the breaks the Illitches or other guys get,, I cant tell you how many people I know in the burbs constantly tell me they "love " coming downtown, If its only for a visit , right now, that a first step, you would never have heard these people say this five years ago either ,, You keep them coming, along with the current residents and you are building a solid base,,, Its called planning and I think we are doing fine, | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 155 Registered: 11-2003 |
I am not calling anyone on this board clueless but there are a lot of clueless people in the metro Detroit area that need to travel a little bit and open their eyes. We have run into the same situation as you did with the appraiser. There are properties being sold for millions of dollars downtown and millions more going into renovation but they are blind to it. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10698 Registered: 10-2003 |
Makes ya wanna "Charlie Murphy" their ass doesn't it? | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 28 Registered: 09-2006 |
I agree, a friend of mine who used to own a market appraising firm in Birmingham, moved to San Fran a couple of years ago,,Afterwards he still would talk about downtown Detroit like it was 10 years ago and said there never will be development, he was here about two weeks ago and kept saying after he had no idea what was going on,, he was delighted,, It made me quite annoyed at the inability to observe the obvious over the years. I have pictures of the whole area near Comerica and Ford Field from my 24th floor residence both then and now, Its a major change, after the Greektown Casino Hotel is up, even more You would think a appraiser would do their homework first, | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 289 Registered: 05-2006 |
Supersport, I couldn't have summed it up better myself. People like danindc always see the glass as half empty. I remember what it was like downtown 5, 10 years ago and I would take 10 more Ilitch's any day over all the naysayers like dan. Has Ilitch had a perfect track record? Of coarse not. However he has put his money where his mouth is and downtown is better off because of it. Like someone mentioned earlier, Detroit is not Manhatten, we have to take the help when we get it. Detroitej72 | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1793 Registered: 10-2003 |
Like I said, low expectations. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1183 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dan, you've been around a long time, are you still surprised by that? | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 40 Registered: 07-2006 |
While i don't like Illitch's destruction of the madison lenox, or his neglect of buildings like the UA theater, i can't really fault him for buying empty lots. So he owns a bunch of empty lots, what do you expect him to do, build them all up immediately? Reviving downtown is not an overnight thing, it takes years and years, and loads of patience, and even then it might not pay off - yet he still bought those lots. I've got to applaud Illitch for that. And i have no problem with him using those empty lots as parking in the meantime - in fact, it's needed, to help 'train' the suburbanites to come downtown. as it develops more, they'll adjust to parking in new ramps rather than the acres of surface lots. but first, you just have to get them down here. so give them the acres of surface lots they're used to. And as someone who had never been to downtown detroit in his adult life until january (it's still quite a distance from the flint area where i live), and have been back several times since, I have been repeatedly amazed at the activity going on. I definitely had a negative image in my head, that it was abandoned, crime-ridden, neglected... pretty much any negative thing you could think of. Granted, my first visit was in the weeks leading up to the Super Bowl, but immediately I knew it was nothing like i had imagined. On visits since then, I've learned it's definitely not Danindc's "overwhelming lack of activity" | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10703 Registered: 10-2003 |
Turning Detroit into Manhatten over a 5 year period because you build a couple stadiums? I hope you are joking. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1794 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ilitch has every right to buy whatever property he can. The City makes it too easy, though, to leave it as an empty parking lot. Quite honestly, I don't think the area around a new Wings arena would look much different than Comerica Park's surroundings. For the hell of it, I opened Google Earth. Immediately surrounding Comerica Park, I noted the following: 2 buildings on Adams Street, Ford Field, one parking garage, and six parking lots. If that isn't a thriving urban environment, then I must be out of my mind, right? It's all in the approach. Demand better. Detroit deserves it. News Release for Immediate Release June 12, 2006 Mayor Reaffirms His Position That Parking at New Baseball Stadium Must Not Crowd Out Development Contact (Media Only): Vince Morris (202) 727-5011; Sharon Gang (202) 727-5011 (Washington, DC) Mayor Anthony A. Williams today repeated his position that the proposed parking garage near the new ballpark in Southeast should be underground or built in such a way that permits development around it. The mayor told reporters that building a 1,200-space parking garage underground before the ballpark’s 2008 opening is feasible, economical and aesthetically desirable. He also noted that the nine DC Council members who voted in favor of the baseball project earlier this year all endorsed setting the parking underneath development. Mayor Williams said that he has asked Steve Goldsmith, the chairman of the Anacostia Waterfront Corporation and the leader of a task force that’s working to steer the project to completion, to press for underground parking to benefit the District’s long-term interests. “I strongly believe that it’s in the best long-term interest of the District to put these parking spaces underground, not above-ground as is frequently done in the suburbs,” said Mayor Williams. “It will serve the ballpark as well as the surrounding community for us to place this parking garage below ground so that we can build a productive mix of affordable housing, office, retail or residential development on top of the project. If we put the cars underground, as we do throughout most of the city, the District will reap more long-term benefits and millions of dollars in tax revenue. I want to encourage everyone involved in the undertaking to keep their eye on the big picture; we aren’t just building a stadium. We are creating a healthy cluster of development that will raise the standard of living for all our residents, reshape both sides of the Anacostia River and help make our city a livable and walkable place for the next 100 years. We should not sacrifice that vision for short-term gains.” http://dc.gov/mayor/news/relea se.asp?id=918&mon=200606 | ||
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73 Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2006 |
Does anyone know if it would cost more to build an underground garage in a city like Detroit than a surface garage? I really don't know how they're built. Do you have to start with a clean surface, build it and then build over top, or can you dig underneath existing structures? It seems like underground parking would be great, and works in the case of premier and grand circus garages, but I don't know how cost effective they are. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1795 Registered: 10-2003 |
Underground garages are a LOT more expensive than above-ground garages, and they take longer to build for the same number of parking spots. As far as dollar figures go, I don't have numbers on underground garages, but moving earth ain't cheap. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2006 |
wow, danindc, i didn't know that google earth could tell you the amount of activity! amazing what aerial pics can tell you! the area around comerica definitely spreads past what you're seeing, and is full of activity. also, illitch recently announced that he is marketing some of those lots for retail stores - including the two on woodward in front of comerica. Last time i checked, Google earth still showed the statler fully assembled too. andy, i remember reading in another thread that underground costs about 35,000 a space. i'm not sure what the cost for a above ground ramp, but given that an underground one involves excavation, plus everything that goes into building an above ground ramp, it's got to be more. kind of a shame, because i think that would be ideal. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1796 Registered: 10-2003 |
Above-ground garages cost about $15k-20k per spot. Based on my own crude, limited observations, parking lots kill activity, not generate it. But hey, what do I know? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10704 Registered: 10-2003 |
Danindc, It only seems appropriate that I use baseball as an example to try and explain this to you. Here you are, coming up to bat, swinging for the fence every time. You justify this as "you gotta have high expectations." In reality, you strike out time after time at the plate. Eventually, you get sent down to the minors (or move to DC in your case). Here, while your batting average is no better than it was in Detroit, you have other people who are able to knock them outta the park for you. In return, you kick back, enjoy the easy life, and poke fun at your old team still struggling to get on base. As I approach the plate, I either go for the single or lay down a bunt hoping I beat the throw out. Every once in awhile I'll get a double, as will some of my teammates, and we all celebrate. We realize with more practice and new players we will eventually get a triple, and in cases like Compuware, Rock Financial, the Super Bowl, and All Star game, we'll even knock one outta the park on rare occasions. Your "swing for the fences with every at bat" mentality doesn't work in this town, nor will it for probably another 5-10 years. (perhaps you're in a fantasy league?) That's great you wish that for Detroit, but in reality, I think Detroit's base hits since the stadiums were built have exceeded most peoples' expectations from around here. You keep on swingin' though slugger, as you have the supporting cast out there. You can just warm the bench if it comes down to it, still making fun of how much your old team sucks, wondering why they still aren't swinging for the fences yet. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1798 Registered: 10-2003 |
That made absolutely no sense, and explained even less. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4511 Registered: 10-2003 |
It sounds like someone, here, is working for The Macedonian Parking Cartel. Some of the posts read like Ilitch press releases... | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 44 Registered: 07-2006 |
danindc, parking lots only kill activity if you had it to begin with. right now, you have a generation or more of people who have never had any need to go downtown, and no one actually downtown to support anything. the only way downtown will come back is to attract these people back. their number one complaint is parking, number two is a fear of crime. so what do you do? build parking lots. as people come down for a game, they realize hey, its not so bad. they keep coming, eventually to the point that they WANT to come downtown, and it's not a chore. eventually, you replace one lot with a ramp and some retail. people see their lot is gone, but hey, there is still parking - and now even more to do. they stay longer, spend more money, have a good time, and come back more often. yes, it's simplified. but the point is, we need to get people downtown, and without parking, in a car-centric metropolitan area like this, it's never gonna happen. few are going to invest in a ramp until it's needed. but in 10-15 years, virtually all of those lots will be gone. reviving downtown is not an overnight job, yet that's what you seem to expect. give it some time. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10705 Registered: 10-2003 |
You and your low expectations. Me, I blame Dan for the city's problems. I blame those who love Detroit yet aren't willing to live here. I blame the 1.2 million or so that left. There is plenty of blame to go around, but don't criticize those who remain, nor the speed at which change is happening. Wanna speed things up? Buy yourself a surface parking lot and build yourself a loft with retail downstairs. There will be plenty of lots available soon in Corktown, come on down, make a change. What, not willing to go that far? Only willing to offer up suggestions from the outside looking in? Yeah, you and everybody else. | ||
Motownman Member Username: Motownman Post Number: 24 Registered: 09-2006 |
whats going to happen to the old arena? | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 930 Registered: 09-2004 |
Maybe they can turn it into an Observatory? | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 392 Registered: 11-2003 |
Now that's a real good question! Are we going to have another Tiger Stadium situation on our hands? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6957 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, Cobo is looking for room to expand... | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2006 |
actually supersport, i would love to move to detroit. i look at the lofts going in down downtown and practically drool. unfortunately, financial and family issues prevent me from doing so. if/when those clear up, it will definitely be my number one choice. i hope you don't hold that against me! (at least you said 'aren't willing to live here'. i hope you actually do make that separation between unwilling and unable. ) i'm not sure if it was aimed at me or dan, (i assume there was sarcasm regarding my low expectations) but i certainly am not being critical at the speed it's happening! i'd be MORE concerned if it did happen in the space of a year, rather than over many - it would seem far more likely to fail due to over-optimism and expectations set way too high (look at flint and autoworld for that!) | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10706 Registered: 10-2003 |
Surface parking, landscaped, with shuttles running to the new arena on hockey nights. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 86 Registered: 03-2006 |
Convention space is what will replace it I always thought. I assumed thats was the plan for some time. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1799 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm guessing some other kind of trap, er attraction for people who neither live nor work downtown or in the city proper. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 87 Registered: 03-2006 |
Possibly the outdoor amphitheater Hizzoner is talking about. I thought that was slated for Ford auditorium. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 29 Registered: 09-2006 |
I have heard on numerous occasions that Cobo would like the Joe Louis area for expansion if financing options can be arranged..The Auto Show of the future depends on expansion if Detroit wants to keep it,, Thinking about Ford Auditorium makes me think of one of the few things ( next to the Ambassador Bridge being lit) that I liked about Coleman Young,, He proposed a aquarium for the the Ford Auditorium site,,, I thought that was a great idea- good tourist attraction, open all year around and glass complimenting the river view, would actually be quite impressive located at the beginning of the city ...also something all of us (city and suburbs and beyond can enjoy) | ||
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73 Post Number: 132 Registered: 03-2006 |
Thanks for your answers Dan and Scott. I figured it was more expensive but I never realized it was that much more so. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 791 Registered: 06-2004 |
I think we get made at Illitch because there is so much more he COULD have done and our expecations of him were so high after the Fox. But, he's done a ton and he did it years ahead of the curve. Building the fox. The Wings. The Tigers. Moving his company downtown. It's basically a miracle that he took an interest in downtown. I think he's moved mountains. The frustration is, he could have done more and done better (at least so we all think from the comfort of our arm chairs, relieved of the burden of actually having to pay for it all) But, the point is, he didn't have to do ANYTHING. So, we're sort of looking a gift horse in the mouth. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 51 Registered: 07-2006 |
ray, you have a good point. and he is still running a business - if it's not feasible, he won't do it. one thing i kinda wondered, although it's off topic, did the illitches ever consider the UA building and theater for motorcity casino? i'm not talking the site - the building itself. i'm not sure how it compares so far as size, but with the old tuller site (heck, even the statler as the hotel!), it seems like it could have been done (parking aside, but i'm sure that problem could be solved too). the theater could have been quite an attraction itself - think of all the shows in vegas, or even at mount pleasant. could they compare to an early 20th centure movie palace? sure it competes with the fox, but i think they could easily coexist, if not enhance each others business. also it would have kept the illitchs' investments closer together. and it would have restored one, and possibly saved another, of detroit's jewels. a shame it never happened. of course, i'm an armchair quarterback, and i'm not paying for it, and neither do i really know just how feasible that idea is. or perhaps there was opposition to them being that close to the city center? (although greektown would appear to contradict that possibility) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2863 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well said Scott, I was long ago disappointed that Marion Ilitch decided to stay at the MotorCity temporary site. After C. Howard Crane "practiced" his accoustic skills on Orchesta Hall and the Capitol (Detroit Opera House today), he perfected it in the United Artists Theatre. Mike Ilitch can be credited with spending more money on downtown than anyone else. But he can also be credited as being a "benign neglector" of his other properties. The Adams Theatre was a WORKING theatre when he took over it... today it is a ruined hulk with 2 inches of mold covering all surfaces of the waterlogged auditorium. In the United Artists Theatre, all the great Indian maiden busts have been ripped out by scavengers during the Ilitch ownership. And then there is the Madison Lenox fiasco. No one has been as blatant about defying the National Trust as Michael Ilitch... and the National Trust repaid him by posting the UA Building on their nationwide magazine. The Free Press said it best by describing the Ilitches.... "flawed brilliance". But for all the money they have invested in Detroit, one cannot simply buy their way into being above the law. They must still be held to the same standard as anyone else. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2006 |
You know I just got back from an hour walk tonight (Friday-830 pm) just to see how downtown is, down thru greektown, campus martius , up woodward, to the ball park, down the opera house, ymca,,and back to lafayette park,, I didnt even get to the foxtown area,, I have to admit, its looking great, tons of people in all the restaurants, bars, ball game, greektown, the traffic backup all the way down lafayette from 175 into downtown,, thousands of people of all ages and types walking around,,lots of lofts lit up at night,,and all those very cool buildings shining,, it looks great for those out of townerns who seem to want to slam us all the time, its quit contrary to their typical rhetoric and image they project,,,whether you want to thank Illitch, Karmanos , Kilpatrick, or every metro detroiter its looking damm good, | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4376 Registered: 11-2003 |
jjaba invokes Skipper's rules. Beleieve Illich when you see the shovels in the ground. jjaba, Proudly Westside. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4514 Registered: 10-2003 |
Or, when you see gaping holes illegally hacked into the side of historic buildings. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4378 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gistok knows his theaters. Believe him. He tells it like it tis. jjaba, Theater Historical Sociery. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 296 Registered: 05-2006 |
Jjaba, what was the name of the theater around Dexter and Davison circa 1940's? Me folks took me there when I was a wee little lad. Detroitej72...longtime eastsider. | ||
Illwill Member Username: Illwill Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't agree that it's usually the out of towner's who slam the city but mostly people in our own backyards. That's pretty sad. However back to the whole Illitch issue, first and foremost, as a business man he has the right to buy whatever he chooses as long as it's a wise investment. He's proven that he knows the game. Danindc, with all do respect, I cannot believe what you're even saying. Developing Detroit is not as easy as adding a few ingredients into a bowl and "tada" you have Chicago or New York. Mike Illitch may not have made some of the best decisions over the years, however he's done more than most people (or maybe even all people) in terms making Detroit what it is today... in the realm of entertainment. I can also tell you that he is not running any other potential investors out of town when it comes to him buying as much land as he can. Detroit is a HUGE city and there is room for any and everyone to play in this city. Also, most business savvy people understand that compitition is welcomed as a way to draw more people to the area. I personally would like to see the stadium built it in another area of the city to help spur economic growth and development in already underserved communities. This would increase property values, bring new businesses to other areas of the city and help existing businesses. This also is something that K.K should be addressing to the Illitchs'. But again, it wouldn't make sense for Illitch to basically start over when he's spent the past 25 years building up his empire downtown. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 299 Registered: 05-2006 |
Amen, ILLWill... Illitch is doing from a capitalist's standing what needs to be done. I Issue a call to arms...Rise up all Detroit Lovers and put your money where your mouth is... Buy proterties in the "Scary D". Cut your grass, trim yor hedges and sweep the street in front of your homes... This is one small step for man...on LARGE STEP for mankind... Detroitej72, always sweeps his curb out front.. As far as the neysaers, I ask this of you, What have you done? Anyone can critisize some of bornotdoing 'enough'. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2005 |
The Ilitches were urban developing pioneers. We should be thankful to have them. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. ha. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2005 |
like or hate the Illitch style of development,they have single handedly done more for the city ( and their own pockets) than anyone else OK, this I completely agree with. But that doesn't mean I have to like Ilitch or agree with his decisions or his way of "redeveloping" Detroit. Personally, I think Karmanos did almost as much for Detroit as Ilitch. Granted, Karmanos has a lot more employees. Personally, I think what Ilitch does it practically criminal. Granted, we don't have many other "saviors." | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1375 Registered: 06-2004 |
Having the new arena behind the Fox would allow existing parking to be used - if it were built elsewhere there would be a much greater need to create more parking - and a hockey arena isn't going to be as large as Copa or Ford Field... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4517 Registered: 10-2003 |
You don't think they are going to build more parking with this, regardless? | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2005 |
You don't think they are going to build more parking with this, regardless? You know the Ilitch motto: One can never have enough parking. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1376 Registered: 06-2004 |
Maybe a little, but it would be much more cost efficient to try to keep the spaces they've already paid for constantly filled. | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 592 Registered: 02-2004 |
I read in the story that a decision will be made 'within 30 days' about whether to renovate JLA or build a new stadium. The NHL would love to bring a couple of all-star games to the Motor City, but JLA was in just too bad of shape. Expand Cobo, build a new Olympia. Everybody's happy. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 737 Registered: 10-2003 |
What does the Tiger's playoff run have to do with making a decision on the JLA??? | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 54 Registered: 07-2006 |
erikd, he will probably wait until the tigers are out of the playoffs. both because he probabaly doesn't want to distract from them (or seem like he's just feeding off their success), and because he'll most likely be at the games himself, giving him less time to put towards a JLA plan. |
