Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » What Should Detroit Parents Do? « Previous Next »
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 590
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DPS Super Coleman has issued an urgent plea to parents: return your child to the DPS to save from catastrophe:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060921/NEW S99/60921012
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Spacemonkey
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Username: Spacemonkey

Post Number: 92
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit parents should move their kids to the suburbs.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 294
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what should they do? How about laugh in his face? Kids are supposed to sit around for 16 days while the teachers strike yet again, I think not. They now what you to leave the school you just settled into and come back to theirs? oh boy!
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Noggin
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Username: Noggin

Post Number: 70
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well if he is interested in educating kids maybe should support school vouchers. He expects them to be kept down on the plantation.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 207
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People vote with their feet. If you grandstand when school starts this is the price you pay. 25,000 kids? that how many schools? 10 to 20??

This will mean longer walk for kids to schools or some neighborhoods left without schools all together.

Management is playing victim when they are part of the problem. By refusing to make hard descisions in the past, the DPS will pay for it in the future. As far as I'm concerned, the District should have scaled back years ago in order to concentrate on improving the quality of education. Instead they played us vs them with the parocial, charter, and competing school district. Besides proximity they don't offer much. I've seen DetroitTeacher in her complaining about poor conditions lack of supplies. I've heard stories of disruptive students that never get expelled, and the bright students that are never punished for skipping class because they fear the disruptive ones.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on September 21, 2006)
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1517
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tell me again how vouchers would improve anything.
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 1120
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where do the 25,000 students go? Private schools or people moved out?
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 120
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The argument for vouchers is simple. A school that depends on parents paying money to them directly for their survival is more likely to be responsive to the community because if they don't they will be out of business.

Competition for students will encourage these schools to keep improving. Disruptive students? A private school could eject them because they are not bound by the same rules and bureaucratic crap that public schools are.

It would stand to reason that a parent who was serious enought about their childs education to pay for the priveledge would ensure their kids were there to learn. A school like this would be a magnet for good teachers as well.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4464
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerome, from stats I've seen, Detroit's primary and secondary student population has actually increased over the years (as Detroit has become a younger city). Many of these students are being retained within the city, but are in private schools.

DPS is simply feeling what any other businesses have felt over the years, and that is downsizing and a decreased share of the students within the city as there is now more competition. DPS is no longer a monopoly, for better or for worse.
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 850
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...and the "ejected students" would go where?

...and those children who were not lucky enough to have parents "serious" about their education would do what?
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Gildas
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Username: Gildas

Post Number: 848
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe the "ejacted students" should go to a boot camp style school. No point in having the few disrupt the education of the many.

And children with parents who are "not serious" have worthless parents, it is the schools job to educate, not babysit. They would get an education in a public school and hopefully come to understand the losers that were / are their parents and hopefully not repeat the process with thier own children.

At some point one must stand up and take responsibility, schools and government can not and should not do it all.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Clearly a special school would be created for disruptive students, similar to what they have in the suburbs. Why should the bad kids be allowed to harm the education of those who want to learn?

If there are parents who are not serious about educating their children then they should not have had them in the first place. Sadly children in both categories will have it tough in life, as they do now. It is worse though to allow that element to ruin the chances of others because we are afraid to deal with them.

You have inadvertently stumbled upon the main causes of poverty and illiteracy in the city, people having kids they do not want and have no means to care for. The social programs encourage this as we reward mothers who raise kids in homes without fathers with government handouts. A 70-80% illegitimacy rate in the inner city says it all. Until that problem is dealt with, all of these issues will remain unresolved. It would not hurt to educate children more about the consequences of irresponsible sexual activity.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1161
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They tried a boot camp charter school in Cleveland, was shut down because they abused the kids and did not know anything about how to run a school and educate kids.
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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 524
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigan has a National Guard Youth Challenge Program specifically for kids who dropout of high school or are expelled from high school. It is FREE for parents, but it is also competitive to get in. They get many applications for few slots, but it's a great option for the most troubled of teenagers who can still be saved:

http://www.ngycp.org/state/mi/ aboutus.php


They take classes to prepare them for their GED, they get special help with reading and math, they perform community service work, and they undergo physical fitness training. It is not specifically designed to lead to military service, only about 15% of those who complete the program will go on to serve in the military.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 651
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boot camps are a slippery slope toward child abuse: Death In The Desert.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 651
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DPS does have special "last chance" schools. Frederick Douglas comes to mind for boys. My classes are 15+ kids over our class size limit of 35, our building GAINED 200 kids from somewhere, mostly charters (so they tell me). Kids did NOT lose 16 days of school, kids were out for 4 days (the strike stats include weekends and the 3 holiday days in which school was not in session anyway). We were striking for a total of 4 days worth of having the kids in the building. Contracty talks lasted for 16 days total (remember they were talking around the clock everyday). We are making up those 4 days at Christmas break and Easter break.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2796
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is why DPS has alternative ed schools....
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2309
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come back to the district???

Ha Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha!

This man cannot be serious!

Considering the amount of infighting this little squabble caused last week, they should consider themselves lucky that they only "lost" 25,000.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2961
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimaz, the MIARNG Boot Camp is not the same as a privately run boot camp such as the one you cited.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 656
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metrodetguy, Warriorfan's post appeared before I completed composing mine. I wasn't referring to MIARNG.

Take care.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 358
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Time to completely dismantle DPS. Shut it down and dismiss all of the employees. Send the kids to private schools, charter schools and suburban schools.

Anything less is just a continuation of the raping and robbing of Detroit's youth.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1468
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"This will mean longer walk for kids to schools or some neighborhoods left without schools all together."


Detroit's unfit kids are among the country's fattest. Maybe a walk to/from school is what they need. Of course, the 75% who drop out will probably stay obese. Let's close lots more schools.

I never had a school closer than a bit over a mile from home, and I walked or biked everyday through the eighth grade. When my high school was 15 miles away, I got a ride in and during my entire soph year had to walk six miles home from the end of the bus line. I was fit and lean back then...
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Jenniferl
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Username: Jenniferl

Post Number: 332
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What private schools are Detroit kids supposed to attend? The charter schools have pretty much put the private schools out of business. Most of the Catholic schools are gone. The Herlong Cathedral School is gone. I honestly have no idea where I'd send my kid to school if I lived in Detroit (and if I had a kid).

Suburban schools in Oakland and Macomb Counties generally exclude Detroit kids by only taking in schools-of-choice kids who reside in the same county. And even those programs are being scaled back.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2962
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimaz, Warriorfan's posting doesn't affect your ability to compose and make your own post, which you clearly did.

Take care.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 655
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One problem...private schools, charters and suburban schools often kick out DPS kids because of behavior issues (this all happens after 4th Friday count). I've seen it happen, kids leave for charters or private schools and are back in my class within a month's time. Many of those had been on the verge of being booted from DPS because of similar issues. Unless kids kill someone (at school) or bring in a weapon, we can't keep them out long and can't deny them an education. These other schools don't have the patience to deal with some of our kids.

Fire everyone and make them reapply for their jobs! That would cut the life sucking force out of many schools (those teachers who don't teach). That wouldn't solve the budget problem, though. Such problems have been around longer than most teachers.

There is no clear cut solution. I go to work everyday, nurture and help my kids as best I can with the tools I have, try and have something I teach sink in (it usually does), and then I cry when they graduate (happy tears because for some, it was a tough road). I hug them when they come back to see me (some have brought children and spouses), and hope and pray that they are safe each day. There are good teachers in DPS, it's a shame that so many people blame us for the ills of the schools. Some teachers are horrid and need to be fired. We need to start trimming the fat at the top. I have 50+ kids in each of my classes again this year. Not enough seats, fewer books...yet I am expected to perform miracles.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 659
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metrodetguy,

quote:

Warriorfan's posting doesn't affect your ability to compose and make your own post, which you clearly did.


My point was that I had not yet seen Warriorfan's posting regarding MIARNG until after I had posted. I have no opinion, nor have ever had any opinion, regarding MIARNG.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2963
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimaz, my point stands. I am countering your point that was equated (all) boot camps with child abuse. Clearly that is not the case.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 360
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Detroit Teacher, there is no hope for DPS. The only solution is to shut it down.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 3018
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be a hero; be a teacher. That slogan fits you Detroitteacher. You go girl - your heart is in the right place. While all of tomorrow's alternatives get discussed you take care of the kids today.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 661
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 12:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metrodetguy, in that case, I stand by my original post regarding the particular boot camp mentioned in Death In The Desert.

The slippery slope caveat remains.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 663
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FYI, the plural of a term can mean "multiple," not necessarily "all."
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Themax
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Username: Themax

Post Number: 293
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fifty kids in a class! And all of them will have homework to be checked and tests to be corrected regularly. Tell me again what subject you teach, Detroitteacher. You deserve some kind of merit pay. With that many kids in a classroom, is it any wonder people are sending their kids elsewhere? Somehow I don't think the teachers' strike had anything to do with people putting their kids in other schools. That's just the administration providing an offensive tactic so no one will look at what they are doing for their inflated salaries.
Rich suburban schools have student burnouts too. All the teachers can do is explain the material and try to create positive learning experiences for them.
When you talk about charter schools doing what the parents want, I shudder having heard about teachers being intimidated by parents into giving their darlings higher grades. And what if the parents demand "intelligent design" taught in science class? Schools need to be independent of the communities they serve otherwise there will be no progress in learning.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2799
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urge Detroit Public Schools to resume teaching grammar in the middle schools.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 657
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, I teach English/Language Arts. I have 250 papers to grade (now these are essays and research papers, not just math answers)each night that I have an assignment due.

Each year DPS sees a drop in kids until after 4th Friday (which is really a Wednesday) count. After that, they all come streaming in because they have been asked to leave other schools. DPS has to take everyone. Rarely is a student thrown out of school permenantly. Our school has more students than we do teachers to serve them. The Board won't admit that, however. They want everyone to think our strike killed the district. It didn't.

Ltorvia, I agree. Grammar needs to be taught in MS. I have to waste time teaching something that should have been taught prior to them getting to me in 11th grade!
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1480
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DT, do you utilize the "new and teacher-improved" holistic grading practices? Doing so only requires about 15 to 30 seconds per essay. Teachers love it, due to its time saving. Previously, teachers would actually read and grade essays. But, no longer do the majority of today's middle and high school English teachers bother with the old-fashioned methods...

No deductions for grammar, spelling, or punctuation "errors" are allowed or even mentioned, due to self-esteem reasons, among others.

And, BTW, errors are not called errors anymore but instead are considered welcomed outlets for self-expression.

I shouldn't complain, though. As a technical editor/writer, I derive extra income for doing massive copyediting and rewriting from college "graduates," working in various professional and technical fields, who surely must have "benefited" from holistic grading practices during their dysfunctional education in English, err... "Language Arts."
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 658
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernois, I actually read every paper and grade them. I do have a rubric with specific things I look for (in addition to the standard conventions). It takes me HOURS to grade one class section of papers. I don't feel that my students would benefit from the holistic grading practice. They deserve my time and attention since they took time and attention (well most of them do) to write their papers. They don't learn anything unless I grade their papers the old fashioned way and we review and reflect on what they need to improve. It just wouldn't feel right if I didn't grade them (for the lack of a better term). I don't like grading, I much prefer proofreading and giving them an opportunity to correct their mistakes.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 592
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I taught in a private scholl in Detroit we also had to take the third Friday (it was then) count and return the number of students in our school to the Detroit District. I do believe that the Detroit District received the $5,000 (it was then) for every child in Holy Redeemer School. As you know, a Catholic School doesn't receive state funding, except for some special services that the courts have mandated be funded: speech therapy, mental health testing, some special education.

I imagine that the Charter schools are actually a big drain to the district, but every child who went into a religious school is a pretty big plus for the District - they get the money and don't have to educate the child.
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Ron
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Username: Ron

Post Number: 293
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The 25,000 student estimated loss includes the 10,000 that DPS loses annually. The best that can be hoped for is to realize a gain of 15,000. Losing 10,000 students per year should probably result in laying off indefinitely 250 teachers per year (10,000 students, divided by 40 students per classroom). I don't know if that has occured, but I know some teachers have been laid off permanently in the last few years.

I wonder of those numbers were taken into account by Janna before she recommended a strike?
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 593
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwest, DPS does not receive any money for students attending private or parochial schools in Detroit. I don't know why Redeemer was making a count or sending the count to DPS, but it was not so DPS could get any money from the state.

Obviously though, parents of those private and parochial school students do contribute toward the public education of other students through the school taxes they pay in their home communities.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 593
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Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, the Catholic school teachers on this Board will tell you that they do make the third week count and that those numbers are forwarded to the local districts.

The local districts then receive the money per student. If they do not receive these funds, what do you assert happens to them?

This is not the case for the Charters, which do receive their funds per pupil back.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 659
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If a kid isn't in our building on count day, they aren't counted...no matter where they are (private, charter, juvenile hall, wherever). We must keep exact records of each kid in class this Wednesday. DPS does NOT get per pupil funding for those kids in private schools. We must actually have the living, breathing kid in our building that day to get funding (although it is an average of several days, not just one day).
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 98
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay are they really turning "count" day into "win a prize" day in Detroit schools?
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 660
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not at Cooley. We are promoting the message that education is the reward. Some schools, however, are giving prizes. We, at Cooley, just expect our kids to be in class, business as usual...teachers teaching, kids learning. No free day, no movies, no ice cream, no anything. Just a good old fashioned education. Amazingly enough, the majority of our kids respect that. I have over 50 kids in all of my classes now and ALL of them are coming everyday!! Anyone have any lawn chairs I can borrow?
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1985
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blah, blah, blah

DPS wants every kid in Detroit to show up on count day. Leave the charters/suburbs/whatever and come home to DPS.

My reaction to them is basically the same as their reaction to more than 90% of the 7th graders at Carver Elementary failing to meet the State minimium standards for science.

DPS doesn't care about the kids it already has. Why should we care about DPS?

In my opinion, 25,000 kids leaving DPS is a really good start.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 661
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why the blah blah blah? I simply answered a question. I don't agree with Coleman. I have nothing to do with 7th grade (I teach 11th and 12th grade) and really do care about the kids. Many teachers do. We can't help it that the kids don't have books or supplies or the necessities needed to reach the state benchmarks ( such as science kits, novels, etc). I've purchased novel each year for my kids because we have none. That is 250 kids x whatever the book cost. Don't say I don't care about my kids. If I didn't, I wouldn't bother. Most of us do the best we can with the supplies we are given. How about the parents who would rather spend 250.00 on shoes than some books for their kids to read? Or how about the parents who aren't involved. Why blame it all on the teachers? I am but a human and can only do so much without some outside support. How about the community (like those posting here) volunteer to come in and read to kids, or tutor, or mentor kids? How about the parents get kids to school on time everyday? How about parents feeding their kids a decent breakfast (oh wait, that's MY job, too)? Stop blaming the teachers all the time and start looking at the bigger picture. It takes parents, kids, the board and teachers, community and others to get involved in order to right what has been turned upside down.

How's that for blah blah blah?
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 1397
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bla Bla Bla whatever, thank God DT cares enough to show up for work everyday. She could get a job in any school system. The impact she has on her students is greater than she realizes ... teachers that care are the ones that are remembered most.

(Message edited by HYSTERIA on September 25, 2006)
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 663
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 6:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the boost Hysteria. It's a thankless job, often enough. I get my thanks when my students walk across the stage and I see them go on to bigger and better opportunities. It's also moving when they run in, excited, with their college acceptance letters and tell me that something I said sparked something in them.

I could give a care less about the adults involved in all of this (save the parents) but nobody messes with my kids! I take what they give me and do my best to make some type of difference.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1988
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Stop blaming the teachers all the time and start looking at the bigger picture. It takes parents, kids, the board and teachers, community and others to get involved in order to right what has been turned upside down.



First off - I'm not just blaming the teachers. I blame everyone within DPS; the board, the administrators and, yes, the teachers, too.

There needs to be a fundamental change within the corporate culture of DPS. One that finally says that having more than 90% of your students fail to meet the state's minimum standards is not acceptable.

Period.

End of discussion.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8827
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And what about the fundamental change in parents attitudes. The schools are NOT babysitting services, nor are they places to put the kids while someone bails out their parent(s).
Do these parents not realise that the schools are the tickets their kids need to get out of the cycle of violence and poverty? Or would that not be "keeping it real" or is it just being "another uncle tom?"

Now the administration at DPS could be called into account but the majority of teachers that are in that shit hole of a system should be thanked everday for putting up with the crap they have to day in and day out...from all sides.
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Metrodetguy
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimaz, likewise I stand by my original post. You attempted to portray all boot camps negatively and you are now trying to backtrack to save face. Furthermore (FYI), contrary to your recent claim, you did not originally specify that particular camp.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What can be positively said about the 10% to 20% of the "parents" (unwed mothers impregnated by sperm "donors," perhaps?) that didn't even bother to enroll their kids in school yet and it's almost October?
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Bob
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard makes an extremely good point.

(Message edited by bob on September 26, 2006)
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And what about the fundamental change in parents attitudes. The schools are NOT babysitting services, nor are they places to put the kids while someone bails out their parent(s).



I'm all in favor of parents who don't properly provide for their children. The problem is that some folks within DPS (teachers and administrators) use bad parents as an excuse to not do their jobs properly.

Yes, there are parents who don't fulfill their responsibilities - but there aren't enough bad parents to justify more than 90% of a given class failing to meet the State's minimum standards for academic performance.

In spite of that, all we hear out of anyone affiliated with DPS is, "Blah, blah, blah. Parents suck, there's nothing we can do but send us your kids and money anyway."

And then they wonder why enrollment drops.
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Track75
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The system is so broken it's almost comical.

DetroitTeacher has 50 kids in her classroom. 50 x ~$7500/student is $375,000 of real money (for the 9 month school year). Yet there aren't enough books to go around.

That's just the operating funds, capital funds for renovations and new buildings are on top of that.

The total expenditures per student is over $10,000 per year (from memory, maybe $11K - $12K). Times 13 years in the K-12 system = $130,000 to "educate" each student. I'd say that for 80% - 95% of the students, we the taxpayers didn't get our money's worth. Neither did the students or their parents.

Sure, I'll take every Cass Tech or Ren High grad but that's just the cream of the crop that's been skimmed off the top. The other 90% are heading toward a McJob and maybe an attempt at a WCCC AS degree. Or Mound Road Correctional Facility.

What a waste of people and money.
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Goat
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track75, I agree. Where has all the money gone? The board is so inept they can't even supply the textbooks needed.

Shut it down and rebuild it from scratch.
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Danny
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Detroit Public Schools is like "BOSTON PUBLIC". The students are not learing the basic academic skills which it the state requires to do, but instead learing to clown around. The Detroit teacher's are stuck with a mixture of at risk ghetto kids, where hip hop, sex, guns and drugs is in their way of life. Most of its buildings and its interior is like from the late 19th Century and most of its materials have been around since the late McGuffey Reader days.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The books essentially vanish due to a phenomenon known elsewhere as "shrinkage." And many books become abused to their literal demise.

Again, the major problems at DPS go beyond the obvious mismanagement and lousy teaching. The biggest problems are caused by lousy kids, their peer pressure (the same thing, actually), and terribly rotten parenting. Detroit probably leads the nation in all of these.

And, get this, the worst 70% drop out, and when they do they don't further gum up the works. And if they drop out after "count day," DPS gets the money and doesn't have to educate those phantom students.

It's a mess, and redemption of DPS is virtually hopeless. It's best that it quickly dies...

Those kids who survive DPS are the cream of a really lousy crop.
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Detroitteacher
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have ONE working plug outlet in my room (just one, not the two on top of each other). I have a rigged system of power plugs in order to have MY computer plugged in so that I can share my notes with my kids and let them do word processing projects. I don't have internet in my room.

I can go on, but I need the basic tools for today's classroom.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I attended parochial schools in Milwaukee during the 1950s, we didn't need any electric power in our classrooms outside of lighting. Our principal was the full-time eighth grade teacher who didn't even have a phone. Didn't need it.

We had roughly the same 42 kids in my class from year to year, and any forced discipline was rarely needed.

And our school never resorted to any kind of corporal punishment, whereas those DPS and Detroit's burb schools back then did.

What went wrong? And, DT, don't keep making the lame excuse and blame the facilities or what-not.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The other 90% are heading toward a McJob and maybe an attempt at a WCCC AS degree. Or Mound Road Correctional Facility.



And the McJobs are getting more and more rare. By the time kids who are in 6th & 7th grade today hit the work force, they'll be almost completely gone.

A fact that will surely leave more of them heading to Mound Road or where ever we're housing them in 10 more years.
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Detroitteacher
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since the state benchmarks and standards require us to use technology in the classroom, a working plug would be nice. I rarely have discipline issues and if I do, I handle them internally.

Are BOOKS an excuse? In an English class?? I can only do so much with helping kids with reading when I don't have a BOOK to give them to READ! I've invited people to come join my class for a day, invite is still open. Maybe then you'll see, I am NOT making excuses...I'd just like some tools with which to teach that I don't have to buy myself (I can't buy books for every kid all the time). I'd also like enough seats for my kids, right now, they are sitting on the floor because I have taken all the chairs in I can find (including two from my dining room table set).
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When did the shift from having the students purchase their own books each year swing to the present, untenable situation? Makes you wonder how these stupidly-run school systems operate.

During the 1950s, I or my parents bought used or new books every year from grades 1 through 10 for two parochial schools and for two years at the public high school. There were no books other than expensive reference books in the classrooms. The schools got the parents and kids together for a few hours before the first week of class for selling/swapping of books. In case of anybody being without a book, the schools purchased and sold them at their cost. It took, maybe a day or so, for the new books to appear.

I doubt if there's any law requiring the stupid system used today. This is just another reason to do away with many of today school systems and start from the ground up. Whatever comes of such reorganization, even if not ideal or close to it, surely cannot be worse that what we have at present.

It's plainly obvious that the so-called school experts here (and by extension, elsewhere) are generally clueless in most areas that matter.
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Southwestmap
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Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sad to have only one plug. But, from a taxpayers point of view: I have always supported millage requests. I was a teacher and I am a citizen who knows that we have to educate our young people.

Since millages always pass, why was the money spent so poorly year after year? How hard was it/is it to have an operational maintainance plan that involves electrical upgrades building by building?

When I taught at Holy Redeemer school (which building was at least 70 years old, then) in the 1970's, such a plan was in place. I can mentally see the silver conduit running along walls in my classroom. I ran projectors, radios, record players, lamps, so there were many plugs. I'm sure appropriate wiring continues to be done.

In such private schools, as Livernois yard says, not everything is available, not every upgrade is done. There is only tuition money and parish financial support. Yet, that is a strength. Teachers and students have a shared education goal and recognize that "frills and extras" just aren't there.

Books are valued by the teachers and administration and, eventually, by the students.They are counted, refurbished (Catholic school students will remember the ritual scotch-taping of pages and the washing with mild bleach water)- maybe not allowed to leave the classroom. If they are vandalized, students face a punishment.

Teaching is centered around the basics. The next, new thing, new curriculum idea is seldom available. Gimmicky consultant ideas aren't even considered. My friends who are DPS teachers are always undertaking some fad curriculum because someone somewhere thinks its a good idea. Yet none of it ever works successfully.
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Detroitteacher
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Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that the fad curriculum idea is a waste of money. The upper crust rarely allows us to see it through. Money wasted on more gimmicks.

I don't know what happened to the old buy your own book theory. I am all in favor of it. However, since it isn't law, we are required to give students books. We don't, however, have any to give. I am bringing in tons of supplemental materials (and with no working copier I can't make copies, therefore need a PLUG for an overhead projector for which I have no screen, just a thick white sheet I purchased that is clipped to the board).

I have no idea where the money went from millages. I do know that Coleman just hired 49 new people and staff for those people for downtown offices in DPS. I guess books and supplies to run my class aren't important but staffing downtown is.

I don't think downtown (DPS) really is concerned about the kids or the classroom. They are self serving and look out only for themselves.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's face it! A lot of this, "The district doesn't have the funding to do this or that," is plain unadulturated bull shit.

As for English "texts" in use during the 1950s in Milwaukee: The Chancellor's office for the Archdiocese produced its own on single, double-sided sheets for all of its English grammar or composition instruction. These were then placed unbound into simple folders. The students then used them as workbooks for all eight years.

Just how much could that have cost? When the eighth grade would go on a number of field trips, mostly downtown or nearby--visiting "urine-smelling" nursing homes or the city jail (yes, we toured the jail during "Crime Prevention Week") or the Chancellor's office, we were put to work for an hour filling these English folders, etc. before or after another school would help out. We also took in other things for the rest of that day.

My point is: Why can't this terribly fucked-up, dysfunctional school district do much of anything right and without muchos sums of money disappearing or paid out to essentially worthless adults--be they principals, self-proclaimed experts with friends in higher places, or those teachers who just happen to be incompetent but still are working in an environment with about the worst unemployment rate in the nation? To outsiders, this wouldn't make sense, but again they're not "from here."

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on September 27, 2006)
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Detroitteacher
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Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 6:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Liverois, I agree.

With the textbook issue, the state benchmarks and standards virtually require us to use some sort of textbook. Worksheets haven't been used for decades (at least not at the high school level). If Detroit were to produce its own folder like the one you described, people would be screaming because the kids don't have similar books to the suburban kids (I realize something is better than nothing, though). If they could provide us with copy machines, much of the problem would be solved. I could bring in supplemental materials that would suffice. We don't have one working copier in our building. I can't afford to copy that much material at Kinkos.

So the problems continue. Anything that requires logic and reason are not even considered by DPS.

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