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Detroitman
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Username: Detroitman

Post Number: 995
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.9.112.192
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dividing line
New median is hurting business, owners say

By Sheena Harrison

6:00 am, September 11, 2006

Detroit is turning a two-mile strip of Livernois Avenue into a boulevard in order to reduce traffic crashes. But some retailers in the area say the $1.5-million road project has hurt their businesses.

“They have literally taken my multimillion dollar development and relegated it to being on a one-way street,” said Glenn Wash, who said the project has driven customers from his two shopping centers, which are operated under the name Livernois Square L.L.C.

Medians are being installed between McNichols and Eight Mile roads on Detroit’s northwest side, and construction is expected to be done by Dec. 31, said Marja Winters, director of Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick’s Office of Neighborhood Commercial Revitalization.

The Michigan Department of Transportation provided 80 percent of funding for the project through its transportation economic development fund, and the remainder came from the city’s street fund, Winters said.

Winters said the medians are being installed because the area has been identified as a high-risk corridor for crashes.

According to the latest data available from the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments, there were 148 accidents on Livernois between McNichols and Eight Mile in 2004 which resulted in 43 injuries — two of which were considered severe. Four involved pedestrians and one involved a bicyclist.

Jerry Rowe, SEMCOG’s manager of transportation programs, said that’s a “fair number” of accidents, and said it’s understandable that the city would want to install a boulevard along that stretch of Livernois.

“Boulevards do provide a safer movement of vehicles,” Rowe said. “It certainly generally reduces the number of head-on collisions.”

Winters said pedestrians have to cross 90 feet of pavement to get across Livernois, and that often means dodging fast-moving traffic.

“There’s no refuge in the street for pedestrians who want to cross,” Winters said.

While the boulevard construction likely has caused some inconvenience in the area, the city believes the medians will help local businesses by making the area safer for drivers and pedestrians.

“We think some temporary discomfort in the neighborhood is far (outweighed) by the benefit once the project is completed,” Winters said.

Some business owners in the area disagree. Wash said the new medians have cut down on customers at his shopping centers, which include such tenants as CVS Pharmacy, Boston Market, LaSalle Bank, and H&R Block.

Wash believes part of the problem is that one median cuts across Margareta Street, which sits between Wash’s shopping centers and was previously a through street. He wants the city to open the median at Margareta so customers can more easily turn into the north portion of Livernois Square without driving further down the street to turn around and come back.

Southfield-based CB Richard Ellis leases and manages Wash’s properties and sent a letter to the city on Aug. 18 calling the boulevard a “financial detriment” to Livernois Square and requesting that the median be opened at Margareta. As of deadline last week, the company had not received a response, Real Estate Manager Cindy Daly said.

Wash argues that the city didn’t account for the impact that the boulevard would have on businesses.

“They’re concerned with aesthetics instead of business,” said Wash, who owns Detroit-based development company Glenn E. Wash & Associates Inc.

Yvonne Roberts, manager of Boston Market at Livernois Square, said business is down 20 percent at her restaurant since the construction began earlier this year. The decrease has made her worry that the restaurant will close, and has also caused her personal income to decline.

“My income is dependent on what this store is able to bring to the bottom line,” Roberts said.

South of Livernois Square, Savon Foods Inc. grocery store has lost 15 to 20 percent of its business since the boulevard was installed, Manager Nash Pattah said. He believes it’s because the boulevard cut out the turn lane that customers had used to enter Savon’s parking lot, making it more difficult or inconvenient for them to get to the store.

“I have a lot of customers complaining about it already,” Pattah said.

Ray Marogy, manager of Tradewinds Liquor & Wine Shop, said his sales have gone down by 10 percent to 15 percent compared to last year.

“I don’t think business will come back because the boulevard (is) going to really slow down the traffic,” Marogy said.

The boulevard has slowed down emergency response time for fire trucks that have difficulty making the turns, said Dolphin Michael, captain of the Detroit Fire Department’s Engine 51 at Livernois and Curtis Street.

“I think it’s very poorly done,” Michael said. “I don’t think it helps the businesses on Livernois.”

Each of the business owners and managers say they didn’t receive notices for public hearings and that they were not asked for their input about the project. Wash said he has visited several other merchants on Livernois, who say the boulevard construction has had a negative impact on their businesses.

Winters said public hearings were held on June 8 and July 13 to discuss the project and that notices were mailed and hand-delivered to home owners and business owners in the area. A third meeting was held by Detroit City Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel to discuss the project, according to the city and Adrian Kerrigan, vice president for advancement at the University of Detroit Mercy.

UDM is one of several members of the University Commons Organization, a community group that includes several neighborhood associations, including the Palmer Woods Association and Bagley Community Council, Livernois Avenue businesses and Marygrove College.

Kerrigan said business groups such as the Livernois University Merchants Association and the Avenue of Fashion Association were represented at a series of additional meetings facilitated by UCO.

“We were actively involved in communicating with the business owners to make sure their concerns were heard,” Kerrigan said.

LUMA President Wilbert Small, president of Metro Home Medical Supply on Livernois, said the majority of the association’s members support the boulevard because it will slow down traffic and beautify the street. LUMA has about 100 members representing about 50 businesses, he said.

“We want the drivers who drive on Livernois to be able to see where the businesses are located,” Small said about slowing down traffic on the road.

Small and Kerrigan said they believe the road construction may be affecting local businesses more than the medians.

“I think people are just frustrated that they haven’t seen the progress they would like before Labor Day,” Kerrigan said.

The city has been working to help small businesses throughout the city and believes the boulevard will ultimately benefit Livernois retailers.

“I think Mayor Kilpatrick … is very supportive of small business,” Winters said. “It’s not the administration’s intent to do anything that would negatively impact businesses in the corridor.”
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2006 0911/SUB/60908041/-1/toc
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 762
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.42.23.2
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I worked in Ypsilanti during the time in which they were doing construction on Carpenter Road and Packard and the retail took a dump at that plaza. After the construction, business picked back up andthings resumed as normal. So I can understand the complaints during the construction phase.

After living on Cherrylawn and Margareta, I traveled the Livernois frequently and it is a nightmare making a left turn in any direction. I think it looks nice and I can't wait until the turning locations are opened because as of now you have to travel a ways to to make a turn. That is annoying, but it is short term.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1954
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 134.215.223.211
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Small and Kerrigan are on to something: it is the construction that is the main culprit, not the medians.

Having said that, the medians could possibly have an effect on business. I don't know the exact set up of the boulevards, but if they don't allow for a Michigan Left they could hurt business. Downtown Ypsilanti installed boulevards down Michigan Ave. a few years ago. Due to the narrowness of the street, the boulevards only allow left turns at two places in downtown. You have no choice but to turn right or go straight every where else. It's had a big impact on many businesses not near the left turn areas.

As for those complaining that they didn't have their say, these folks always come out of the wood work once the project is underway. When the letters notifying them of the meetings come across their desk they throw them right into the circular file. Then they raise hell and say "no one told me". There's only so much a community, merchant and government group can do to get folks to show up to the meeting. A personal, face-to-face invitation isn't possible for everyone.
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 764
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.42.23.2
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are plenty of left turn locations on Livernois, it's that they aren't open yet is the problem. People are impatient and some just want to bitch about something
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1755
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good to see that MDOT is imposing another one of its "one-size-fits-all" solutions on the neighborhood. Makes you wonder when they're going to get their heads out of the 1950s.
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Rrl
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Username: Rrl

Post Number: 612
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 71.213.230.209
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

“I don’t think business will come back because the boulevard (is) going to really slow down the traffic,” Marogy said.




Or, he may find, once the construction clears, that the slower traffic may actually enhance his business due to greater visiblity and awareness of his store by passers-by. Slower traffic has a tendancy to do just that.

Personally, I haven't been out to this portion of Livernois to see how the work or medians are being implemented, but from my few trips on that avenue, seems like slower traffic can't do anything but help.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1756
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I disagree. "Boulevard" in this case is a euphemism for "divided highway", which is what they're creating by installing this median. The physical characteristics of the roadway will actually lend themselves to vehicles travelling *faster* than they currently do.

Again, MDOT enacts a completely inappropriate solution. If they want to reduce head-on collisions, they should narrow the roadway, lower the speed limit, and allow on-street parking along the curb. The median may help reduce head-on collisions, but by allowing cars to drive faster unimpeded, it creates a more dangerous environment for cars and pedestrians alike.
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 767
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.42.23.2
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan..I'm not being a smart ass but do you have any sources which show that a "divided highway" causes more harm than good. We can all provide reasonable and believable reasons for everything, but without some kind of background etc... it sounds like personal hate towards MDOT and not a business/logical rationale.
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 586
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.131.152.13
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danin, you're wrong on this one. You're giving ammunition to those folks who always criticize you as an out-of-towner who doesn't understand the local nuance of the local issues on which you comment.

MDOT has not created a divided highway situation on Livernois like it often does in suburban situations when it seeks to increase the level of service (LOS) of a road. On the contrary, with the Livernois Road boulevard, MDOT has indeed effectively narrowed the road to two through lanes in each direction in an important stretch where there were often three travel lanes in each direction. When completed, this configuration will definitely slow down traffic which can only help the struggling retail in that area. Before the boulevard, Livernois traffic often whizzed by at 40 mph or more as drivers tried to time the lights. Nobody traveling that fast is going to notice a little 20 ft. storefront for a small business.

The boulevard maintains the abundant on street parking, slows the traffic and beautifies the streetscape. A win all the way around.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1757
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll see what sources I can find. My claim above is based on my knowledge of transportation engineering practice and roadway geometry. Rationally speaking, though, MDOT is incompetent. That's a professional opinion, not a personal one.

When I find a source, I'll post it here.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 177
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 63.85.13.248
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan and Swingline, Livernois is a City of Detroit owned Street. The City was the agency that desired and designed the boulevard. Any screwyness to the boulevard can be directed to City Engineers. Incidentally City engineers are also the ones that have done Campus Martius. Funding for this project came out of a set-aside for economic development fund improvements for local governments.

MDOT has been putting some pretty good projects together, these include the traffic circle on Vandyke and 16 1/2 Mile, and the Boulevard on Gratiot Between Downtown and Eastern Market. MDOT is even expanding the I-275 bike path so it links into the Haggerty Connector at Pontiac Trail.

That being said, its amazing that people in this forum complain about everything. Remember folks you are only looking at on piece of information here, not the whole project or story. These boulevards reduce accidents, improve how the road operates AND provide safe harbour for pedestrians. If done correctly they can actually enhance the area for business. They have these up and down Mack on the East side commecial district, do you hear people screaming to rip them out??

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on September 11, 2006)
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Ro_resident
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Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 173
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.26.88
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why bring MDOT into this? They provided the funding, but Livernois is a city street. Therefore Detroit is responsible for any designs applied to the road.

Yes, things will be out of whack while the median is under construction.

However, I think that the medians will help the area in the long run. Livernois was a wide cross section of (5 or 7 lanes, I can't remember). The city added the boulevard without taking any more right-of-way. The overall effect has been to narrow the space for through traffic. Plus, there is a safe refuge for pedestrians wishing to cross the street.
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 169
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.50.105.69
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People always bitch during the construction faze-fact of life.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 252
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.19.14.30
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The traffic circle is at 18 and Van dyke, not 16 1/2
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1758
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Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My apologies--I presumed that since MDOT funded the project, they also designed it.

Is the median going to have trees or other landscaping, or will it just be plain concrete?

Sorry--I tend to be very skeptical of road work where the primary goal is the unimpeded free-flow of traffic.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1806
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.209.132.28
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The median will require people to make adjustments to how they have been used to doing things. For example, the median has eliminated being able to make a left turn from Livernois at McNichols and Seven Mile roads. The "Michigan left" turn lanes are quite a ways down from the intersections, and so turning left is definitely going to be an adjustment for those used to making a quick left, especially the local residents.

Also, at Curtis Avenue, which is the half-mile street between McNicols and Seven Mile, turning left from Curtis on to Livernois is going to take a major adjustment, especially in the morning. People who live in University District use Curtis to leave their homes to go to work, and parents use it to take their kids to school. Turning left onto Livernois with the new median means that cars heading east or west on Curtis now have to drive pass each other in order to turn left.

Before the median you turned in front of the cars turning left onto Livernois. This was a much quicker process. Turning left now will be like trying to make a left at a freeway overpass, without the left-turn arrow. Trying to turn against all those other cars turning left is going to slow things down considerably.

In addition, getting used to Margareta Street being blocked off is going to take some adjustment. Personally, I agree with Glenn Wash, the owner of the Livernois Square shopping strip. Margareta Street should have remained opened. It makes getting to the shopping strip that much easier.

Another adjustment people will have to make is getting used to the zigzag walkway. If you cross Livernois at Margareta from the west and you are on the north side of Margareta, you then walk across Livernois to the median and then walk south along the median to get to the crosswalk that will take you to the east side of Livernois. This process is reversed when crossing from the eastside of Livernois at Margareta(southeast corner).

The intent is to prevent pedestrians from crossing in front of cars turning right on either side of Livernois, but it's definitely an inconvenience for the people crossing.

Instead of creating the median, MDOT and all others involved in this work, should have considered widening the sidewalks to eliminate the great expanse of Livernois, bringing it down from nine lanes to seven lanes. Widening the sidewalks could have also helped to create outdoor seating for restaurants. Currently there are very few restaurants along Livernois.

Also, if the sidewalks were widened a little more, then there could have been room for angled parking, eliminating the center left-turn lane. The area would then look a lot like Old Woodward Avenue in Birmingham. Stratigically placed stop signs would also force the traffic to slow down.

Finally, the biggest problem with the median (which many here on this forum will say is its benefit) is that it "is" going to slow everything down. Getting used to taking longer to turn or get around the area will be the biggest adjustment for people, especially for the residents and business owners. Time will tell if putting the median along Livernois is a good idea.

BTW, the median has not yet been placed along Livernois from Seven Mile to Eight Mile. So essentially only half the business owner's and residents in the area have had to deal with the median construction. Maybe they'll be a little more open to what's going on.

(Message edited by royce on September 11, 2006)
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1807
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Posted From: 69.209.132.28
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitplanner, the median along Mack is fine because no side streets are blocked, and there are no "Michigan lefts." It does get a little scary when making a left when there is a car already in that spot. You have to worry about those speed demons running into the back of you while you wait for the car in front to go ahead and make that left turn. Other than that, for the reasons that I gave above, the median on Mack Avenue works.
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Planner_727
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Username: Planner_727

Post Number: 41
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 71.65.11.160
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are plenty of things to say about this post. I have worked on many transportation projects over the last several years, including several "access management" plans for MDOT. These plans usually are done for major roads (non-freeway) that go through developed and developing commercial corridors. The idea is that the fewer conflict points, the fewer accidents. A statistic that we frequently use in our public involvement is crash distribution of crashes at driveways along major roads:

Turning left in to a driveway - 47%
Turning left out of a driveway - 26%

What this means, in theory, is that building a median, without any other improvements, effectively eliminates 75% of driveway crashes. These crashes are also most severe becuase they involve crossing lanes of traffic flowing the other way. Obviously crashes won't just drop 75%, those vehichles will increase the number of right-in and right-out turns, but the decrease is notable.

There are various other advantages to medians. They provide a break to the pavement. 7-9 lanes accross is at least 70-90 feet of pavement. Even doing bump-outs at intersections to lessen that to 50 feet is still an imposing task when you're talking about cars turning and crossing in time on the red. As far as unimpeded divided speedway, studies have shown that the median often lowers speeds because of the perception of a narrower roadway. Same idea as narrower lanes and other traffic calming devices: if you feel like the roadway is smaller, you are inclined to slow down.

The bottom line is, being unaware of how much public involvement they actually did, this median is not going to drive away business. As with any major construction project, volumes are going to go down. How any of these business owners could be blaming the decrease on the actual median being installed is beyond me. Haven't they ever had any other constuction project there?

Just like Ficano says "This short-term delay means long-term relief"

(Message edited by Planner_727 on September 11, 2006)
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 180
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Miss Cleo, Being a west sider, I don't drive around out in the eastern suburbs much. Heck I considermyself far away when I get to Belle Ilse or Hamtramck, I'm not going out to Sterling Heights unless work tells me to! ; )

Planner 727 gave a fine explaination about elimination of crashes. Yes you will have to drive a bit farther, but isn't having a safer system with better pedestrian connectivity better than what was originally there?

I like Royce's idea about angled parking. Too bad engineers would poo poo it as reversing out in this day and age (say if you're in a sedan and parked next to an escalade) can be dangerous; and the goal of this project was to make the road operate more efficiently, make it safer, and provide for economic development. Royce's plan is definitely better for economic development, but as palnner 727 explained the more conflict points you eliminate, the safer your road becomes.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on September 11, 2006)
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1966
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.228.57.79
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to give a hand to Royce for coming up with the real solution that for some reason doesn't get used in Detroit very often. Widening the sidewalks and adding back-in angle parking will create a far more visually narrowed street and create more traffic calming as well as have a far greater economic benefit than a boulevard. If you want a more ped. friendly area, widen the sidewalks and create bumpouts around on-street parking areas. Of course this would then involve moving lighting, street furniture, etc. as well as create more sidewalk to be even more poorly maintained. An expensive proposition.

So we settle for the boulevards out of ease and cheapness. The elimination of left turns from Livernois onto major streets is a huge no-no from an economic development standpoint and I can almost assure you that this will cause significant economic impact on the local businesses.

And Royce is further right when he states that boulevards which limit the turns of cars creates a speedway and/or a situation where cars will just keep going rather than figure out how the hell to get to the business on the other side of the street.

I think the business community is going to be kicking themselves in the ass in a few years on this one.
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Ro_resident
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Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 174
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.26.88
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ferdale introduced choke points on 9 Mile to reduce traffic speeds several years ago. Sure, it slows traffic down, but it gives pedestrians easier access across a busy street. I'm sure the downtown businesses there have seen the benefit of the street furniture.

Royal Oak just introduced angle parking on Washington. They reduced the road from 4 to 2 lanes, and increased the onstreet parking by 40 percent.

Lots of cities are going into the traffic toolbox to improve econimic development.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 183
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Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmm Boulevards are the most expensive kind of roads to build.

With the university, as well as populated neighborhoods there, nicer looking roads that are easier to cross will improve pedstrian traffic significantly. Just look at the impact of Campus Martius on that part of Downtown. People like to walk in nice safe places!

The elimination of left hand turns will reduce accidents. I don't know about you, but even a minor fender bender is a pain in the but for me. Over the summer I got hit in a parking lot (I was sitting in the car talking on the phone). Even still, I lost work time, and it cost her insurance company $600. It was a pain in the but and wasted my time to boot. I'm sure thats cheap compared to most accidents. Just think of the economic savings to the citizens of Detroit simply to to reduction of accidents, not to mention it gives the insurance companies less amunition to raise our rates! Did you see the number of injuries caused by those accidents? What is the economic cost to Detroit of all of those hurt drivers being taken out of the work force? I shudder to think of what the insurance companies are shelling out in medical bills.

Insurance and accidents add major costs to those living in Detroit. This is a fact of life. This project will ease those costs.

Have we gotten to the point where we will kiss every business owners ass and screw the average person? What are we a bunch of republicans?
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1971
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.228.57.79
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The cost of installing a landscaped boulevard is far cheaper than expanding sidewalks and the related hardscape.

Traffic calming through narrowed roads and travel lanes as well as on-street parking will create the needed reduction in accidents. It will also create a much more accessible and inviting area for the "average" person to walk, stroll, eat at an outdoor cafe, etc.

Folks need to stop thinking from a strictly engineering standpoint and look at things from a design and business standpoint. Sidewalk cafes are one of the easiest and most cost effective ways to add foot traffic, people and presence to a street. It's also the most cost effective way for a business owner to add more seats to their restaurant.

It's not about kissing business owners asses, its about creating something that will allow them to feasibly open something other than a florecent yellow liquor store.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.209.132.28
Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 1:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bvos, thanks for the kind words. So often on this forum and that other one, people want to make a point of telling people, like me, that all of our ideas are bad. It's refreshing to hear that someone does like some of the ideas I come up with. Again, Bvos, thanks.

BTW, I want people to remember that the "experts" thought turning Washington Boulevard into a "pedestrian mall" in 1979 was a great idea. Well, 25 years later the new "experts" changed Washington Boulevard back to the way it was because they didn't think it was a great idea. This goes to show ALL that not every idea put out by those who are "trained" in engineering or urban planning are the best ideas. Too often the "if the experts planned it, it can't be wrong" crowd want to jump on people when they criticize a development that goes on in Detroit.

The fact is not every development in Detroit turns out to be a great idea. Look at the history of development in Detroit and listen to how many people on this forum criticize those developments, and talk about how they would "change" things if they had the money or power.

Some ideas like the pedestrian mall idea for Washington Boulevard are bad ideas. Even before it was completed I'm sure there were people who criticized it, and they were ridiculed for being "naysayers." Sometimes you just know when something is not a good idea.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2006
Posted From: 65.42.243.164
Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone, I drive up and down Livernois frequently because my parents live in the area the road is often congested because in its current set up after construction is finished it doesnt appear like it will get in any better mainly because there are only two lanes for traffic on each side and one lane for parking. Combine that with Ddot buses and double parkers its often a headache. They should eliminate parking on Livernois between six and eight mile in order to make traffic flow smoothly but that may infact affect buisness without parking lots nearby negatively as most people like myself like to park right in front of my destination.
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Rrl
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Username: Rrl

Post Number: 614
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 71.213.230.209
Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, all that w/ only three punctuation marks...

Mayor, welcome to the forum?
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Dan_the_man
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Username: Dan_the_man

Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 198.109.28.240
Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To be perfectly honest, traffic on Livernois moved too slowly between McNichols and 7 Mile even before they started work. This was all because the lights were programmed in a way so that you had to hit almost every single one of them. Other than it slowing traffic down even more, I don't see how it could be a big problem. Especially if they put some decent landscaping in, or at least a few trees. Right now they've only planted grass, but there's still time for them to fix that. I can see the area looking a lot nicer when everthing is done, it can't possibly be as bad as 9 lanes of roadway.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2006
Posted From: 69.210.28.203
Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Rrl, I agree that the median will be more pleasing to eye especially if they landscape it and if it spurts business in the area then I'm all for it. I just hope it doesnt turn into one of those Mound rd why is it here medians 20 years from now, especially since I hate Michigan lefts.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 782
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 75.9.244.116
Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

“They’re concerned with aesthetics instead of business,” said Wash, who owns Detroit-based development company Glenn E. Wash & Associates Inc."

Well thank God. My esteem of the city and MDOT just went up 500%.

The problem with the Detroit area and its cuture is this complete lack of appreication for "aesthetics" over the alleged practicality of "business".

The region's aesthetics suck. Wildly. It must be a car industry thing. And this has in my view contributed mightily to the wholesale abandonment of the city and its surrounding suburbs.

Go live in San Francisco for 6 months and then come back to Detroit. Then drive around for a day. It's appalling. It's like an open air prision of stip retail, crapy boxy office buildings , dilapidated roads, parking lots and utility lines. A true nightmare-scape. And that's just Oakland county.

I have to blame the local development community, a real pack of whores who from and after 1950 bear the principal responsiblity for creating -- or at least building -- the socio economic nightmare known as Metropolitan Detroit.

Somehow, the region has just completely missed the aesthetics bus. The human and financial capital we need to succeed doesn't want to live in an ugly place. Christ, why is this so hard for folks to comprehend.
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Waxx
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Username: Waxx

Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alot of great rebuttal(s) here. I'm new 2 this thread so please bear with me as I try 2 pick up some speed on this issue. I've been on Livernois several times as of recently-I'm from the Eastside-and I'll even confess that 4 the 1st x since '97 I stepped foot N2 Farmer Jack on the Avenue of Fashion and it was immaculate (looks like somebody out there is doing something right-lol)! But anyway, I think that the Livernois Blvd. will temporarily slow down business but @ the same time, when the smoke clears as it were, it will resume 2 normal and again @ the same time it will give motorists a chance 2 C each individual shop as they coast-not cruise-down Livernois. This will mean slower traffic. Example: The (Gr8er) Mack median between Moross and Brys-I've seen more construction there this past (friggin') decade than I've seen downtown-that had Grosse Pointers bitchin' their (butts) off! The Van Dyke Median N Sterling Hghts, here's 1! What about the median on Woodward between Fort and Congress? B4 the expanded it 1 lane over on both sides, U could park on the far left side-I miss that so much-the only downside was that it was during the midnight hours, and if U got there B4 traffic got heavy @ the festivals, U were golden!
U saved yourself @ least-@ that time-5 bucks! But I'm going off the subject here. Those were just examples. But from what I observed N these threads, there R a lot of pros and cons 2 this subject. Those whoo live N surrounding historical districts i.e. University District, Sherwood Forest, etc. will have some MAJOR difficulty working their way through Livernois N their own neighborhood-those R the 1s who's gonna do some major bitchin'-from what I'm seeing anyways-and I appreci8 the person who made the observ8ion of the Fire St8ion on Curtis-now THAT'S gonna B a hellraiser up the wazoo, literally! But other than that, I think personally like most of the optimist(s) here that
it will bring revenue back 2 the community-it's just gonna take some time. Now if Livernois were wider it would B sweet 2 have angled parking like they do N Birmingham and Royal Oak. I'll tell U what I'd like 2 C-it's probably petty 2 some, but I'll risk it-if you're going 2 fix up the Avenue of Fashion, please, 4 the love of God, GET RID OF THEM RUSTED-OUT RETARDED LOOKIN' STREET POSTS THAT HAVE THE SHORT STEMS AT THE TOP WHERE U CAN BARELY SEE THEM!!!! Toss the wooden 1s as well.
More than likely if they can fix up the majority of Michigan Ave. w/ those new (PCL, LCP,CPL, or whatever the heck they're called-they metal versions of the old wooden ones) street posts, then Livernois/Avenue of Fashion-which is N a more affluent part of the N. End-should B getting something soon. If I'm not mistaken, it took a year 4 the new posts on Grand River 2 even get bases 4 them, (the 1s N Grandmont-Rosedale)AND THE DARNED THINGS ARE PLASTIC! Even though I'm an eastsider (I'm thinkin' 'bout crossin' over), Livernois is gonna do just fine like it did N the past.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 6991
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damn, son.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1806
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Waxx, those of us older than 14 can't read what you just posted.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2203
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can't? I think you meant won't. Why bother wasting that much time trying to decode it.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1542
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come on. His post was just an obvious big put-on. Nobody could be that igg-nernt.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 674
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

waxx thats gr8 good 4 U. i never saw an entire post in the style of prince song titles b4
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Dan_the_man
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Username: Dan_the_man

Post Number: 11
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just in case anybody cares, they recently opened up all of the turnarounds in the median and everything seems to be finished for this first stage of the construction (from florence to 7 mile). My biggest concern is that the median is currently just grass, which really looks pretty bad, I really wish they'd at least put some trees in there or something, which they still may do, but right now it doesn't look so great.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 58
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is traffic still slow in the area or have the turn arounds helped?
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 201
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They should add trees. In twenty years, those of us who are still around will look back and say I remember when..........! Hopefully we see that business is booming and forget Livernois was ever without a median. 313
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 377
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome to the forum Waxx! I tried reading your post, but it was like 2 damn confusing. TTYL.
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Michikraut
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Username: Michikraut

Post Number: 179
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 6:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

please- the message from Waxx was not that difficult to follow (and NO - I am not even close to the my teen years (sigh!)). It is similar to all the text messages people are sending over their cell-phones. If you wanna bitch about the simplification of the language - then start a new thread - this one is about Livernois Boulevard(Median). There has been some good exchanges here and interesting reading- don´t screw it up with petty bickering about text.

Growing up in GR area and learning to drive there - I like Mich. Lefty´s - and don´t see the difficulty of having to drive a little further to make a left, especially as they are proven to reduce accidents. I think a divided roadway with landscaping is always a positive developement and glad that sometimes aesthics win over pure praticality. I am sure the trees will come. Looking forward to checking the area out when home over Christmas.
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Genesyxx
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Username: Genesyxx

Post Number: 594
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stage 2 about to start (8 Mile - 7 Mile). I wonder how much the changing weather will delay this. Stage 1 needs more signage. I'm getting tired of getting hit all day.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2393
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

.-- .-. .. - .. -. --. - --- -... . ..- -. -.. . .-. ... - --- --- -.. .. ... .- .-.. --- ... - .- .-. -
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5057
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's my anwser from the Livernois Business Corridor.

...---...
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Hybridy
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Username: Hybridy

Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bravo to udm, detroit, and all who made this project happen. can't wait til it goes from 8 down to the lodge. udm will make it go that far too. my one fear is that the median will become a gathering ground for miscellaneous litter and pieces of cars bumpers ect. also in agreement for some landscaping to be done ie. trees n shrubs. its starting slow but is coming together. i know udm has made a permanent committment with the mcnichols campus as well as the riverfront campus and a new location west of downtown. i see lots of for sale signs in sherwood forest tho. hope that neighborhood is not surrendering to the suburbs. hang in there nw side-
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1850
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sourkraut, when you have to worry about decoding someone's message you're no longer interested it the message. Had Waxx wrote in plain English then we would not have been distracted and our responses could focus on the message.

Hell, it takes too much time just reading through the regular crap on this forum. I don't need to be slowed down by having to decipher someone's stuff. And you know how much of a stickler I am about losing an extra 25 seconds.

BTW, if the median is intended to slow down traffic so that motorists can see better the shops along Livernois, then isn't it self-defeating to put trees along the median? As a driver your view is going to be focused on the left side of the street not the right. Having mature trees in the middle of median blocks the drivers view.

It's OK to have trees along Woodward(north of McNichols) because the median is so wide, but this new median along Livernois is rather narrow. It would be better to simply have some nice shrubs and flowers than trees.

(Message edited by royce on October 06, 2006)
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Waxx
Member
Username: Waxx

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 1:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'Hell, it takes too much time just reading through the regular crap on this forum. I don't need to be slowed down by having to decipher someone's stuff. And you know how much of a stickler I am about losing an extra 25 seconds.'

I'm Sorry about all the confusion 2 those who had difficulty reading my post-I was just adding my 2 cents like everbody else. But in case You didn't know-Prince may have originated it, I don't know-but that's the style now, espcially as one person who came to my defense stated that's how you text message people now. But I don't want 2 harp on this petty little issue seeing what a MONUMENTAL uproar I caused (LOL). I was just saying that in comparison to other medians I've seen under construction left and right this past decade plus, Livernois is a walk in the park. And again, I'll say this. If you really wanna bitch about confusion-you know who you are-drive out 2 Sterling Hgts and try NOT 2 miss your exit on the new Van Dyke/18 Mile/ M-53 intersection-no comparison 2 Livernois, unlike the Van Dyke 'maze' in Sterling Hgts., Livernois goes in a straight shot-once again I apologize 4 any confusion caused here-I 4get (there I go again) that not everyone is hip to the new line of cybercommucication-if there is such a thing.
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Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522

Post Number: 140
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First of all, it's 18 1/2 Mile not 18 Mile...

Second...what's the maze? Get in the right lane to go right, middle lane to go straight, left lane to go left. Then stay in your lane. Not too difficult.
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Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 678
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please don't speak phreak on the board.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 243
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Planner's Translation: Waxx cannot circumnavigate a traffic circle.
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Waxx
Member
Username: Waxx

Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'First of all, it's 18 1/2 Mile not 18 Mile...

Second...what's the maze? Get in the right lane to go right, middle lane to go straight, left lane to go left. Then stay in your lane. Not too difficult.'

I do stand corrected on the 18 1/2 mile intersection @ Van Dyke. I was out there earlier today and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was-sorry about the uproars again- has anyone noticed that I wrote this thread in 'plain english?' (lol) since I was torn a new (butt) hole over the whole thing. And to Detroitplanner I can, too circumnavigate a traffic circle-I just need more practice (lol). I will say this, though, it is a beautiful work of art. Although I had a brief stint-I used to live in-Clinton Twp. (next door to Sterling Hgts.), I'm still a 'hood rat' as it were and perhaps that nice circle in Sterling Heights is taking more getting used to that I expected.

My humble apologies to any one I pissed off for speaking so rashly. At least give me credit for having the balls to admit I was wrong.
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Waxx
Member
Username: Waxx

Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 1:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'Please don't speak phreak on the board.'

Request granted out of respect for the other members on the board.

Only on (a rare) occasion will I speak in symbol-if that's okay. In the 'Spirit of Brotherhood, let's just stick to the subject posted.

(Message edited by Waxx on October 07, 2006)

(Message edited by Waxx on October 07, 2006)
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Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522

Post Number: 141
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I will say this, though, it is a beautiful work of art.




That's nice to hear! I think anybody that drove through the old intersection would agree that this is an improvement.
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Waxx
Member
Username: Waxx

Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A definite improvement!

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