  Al_t_publican Member Username: Al_t_publican Post Number: 100 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 72.207.96.165 |
I was returning to Corktown where I lived for ten years on the evening of 11 Sep 01 from west Dearborn when I decided to take a ride around east Dearborn to see what the atmosphere was like. It was around 8pm when I pulled into a retail store at Ford Road and Schaefer to take in the long line of cars at a gas station across the street. I asked a young fella who looked Arab what the long line was about. He said everyone wanted gas because of the attacks. I asked why the attacks would cause long lines and drive up prices within hours of the events, that the supply line of oil hadn't been disrupted. He said the oil would stop coming. A month before my wife went through the swearing in cermony for citizenship at Chaldean Hall in Southfield. Jennifer Granholm was the main speaker at the ceremony. While Granholm was speaking I was seated in the rear of the banquet hall with some young Arab fellas. During the ceremony they repeatedly made negative remarks and were verbally loud. When I gave them a shitty look one of the older Arab men among them caught my look and said something to them the quieted them. Off and on they continued to make disrupting noises that pissed me off. I'm not a flag waver type but I do believe in decorum, which they were violating. It should be apparent by now that many Arabs here have a problem with Americana, especially those who have immigrated from conservative cultures of the old country. In the Sunday Detroit newspaper an Arab woman lamented that she has problems with seeing tax monies go to Israel. So do I. The reality is that no matter where you live you are going to be confronted by political questions like the one she commented on. Meanwhile, Arabs, Zionists, or whoever must come to grips that most Americans do not care about their far flung homelands and political causes. I should add that fundamentalist Islam is not compatible with modernity or Americana. If Muslims living here feel uncomfortable with the pluralism of Americana where women, for example, lead egalitarian life styles, then then should opt out. The same goes for kibbutzim in Israel, a communal system that runs counter to Jeffersonian republicansism of our society. Let's improve on Americana and reject alien concepts of collectivism. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.211.110.69 |
Fundamentalist Islam not compatible with modernity. I think we owe you a nobel prize here. What an achievement. I think you should add Christian and Jewish fundamentalism to the list. I am a Muslim myself, and I felt offended by your message. Muslims here do not feel uncomfortable. You know why? Because they are just as American as you are. Doesn't matter if your parents came to the US on the Mayflower or their parents on a paddle boat from Iraq or Lebanon. But, I do agree that there are some idiots here and there. In each and every comunity. Once again though. Islam does not equate Arabs right? You know that less than 35% of Muslims in the US. are ethnic Arabs right? Why didn't you pick on the Indonesian-Americans, Indians, Pakistanis, African Americans. Of course, another firy republican always using Islam as America's only ill... Sick and tired. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 71 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
Frenchman you stated "You know why? Because they are just as American as you are. Doesn't matter if your " Americans were outraged about what happened on this day. They expressed their outrage by making memorials, taking food to the firehouses in N.Y.C, helping out with donations, sending money to the victims families, helping these families, volunteering etc.. Basically, everyone was in shock over this tragedy but pulled together for the cause. The American way was to pull together adn support each other.. It has been repeatedly stated over and over again, why was the Muslim community silent about what happened to the U.S. ? Why not any comments from their community? American Muslims had been repeatedly criticized about not being more vocal , about not standing up against the terrorists. I for one agree . And I am not a replublican. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 373 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4 |
At-t-pub I'm a bit confused by the first paragraph. What is the significance of the actions you saw in Dearborn on September 11th? I bought close to 100 gallons of gas on September 11th, 2001 and I'm a white, non- religious "exburbanite". On that day no one really knew whether or not the attacks were over or what else had been attacked (Power plants, ports, etc). | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 374 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4 |
I remember seeing many Muslims publicly condemn the attacks on the WTC. Which was even more signifigant considering that many had been targeted with violence in the days following the attacks and in many areas had good reason to stay out of the public view. I also remember there were Islamic countries that expressed their condolences and even offered assistance to the U.S in the aftermath of 9-11. Unfortunately much of the media focused on the "news worthy" actions of Muslims and other Middle Easterners after 9-11. Which were the celebrations in the streets and the burning of American flags. Those types of scenes get ratings. ) (Message edited by Johnnny5 on September 11, 2006) | ||
Arab_guyumich Member Username: Arab_guyumich Post Number: 782 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 141.217.45.16 |
Al_t... BOO! Did I scare you? Look, you're full of shit. I lived in Dearborn on 9/11, and there was so much crap spewed about what we were doing in this town that its not even worth my time to catalogue and discredit it. If you're looking for something, your warped mind will find it...but if the worst thing that happened to you is a stare down from some young Arabs...well you need to calm the eff down John Wayne. (Message edited by arab_guyumich on September 11, 2006) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 175 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Al, I live in Warrendale, which is essentially the same thing as East Dearborn; but only in Detroit. I remember that day very well. I remember the sadness and tears from my neighbors who came to this country to get away from the extremeists and how they knew that people like you would now judge them simply because of how they look. I remember the days following Sept 11 to be very quiet, and only interrupted with victorydances in the streets(when US soldiers were fightinig opression). I remember all the local shops proudly displaying the american flag, showing a clear unity with the United States. I flew my flag every day during Afghanistan, and no one desecrated it. I would think that the overwhelming majority of the arabs here value their freedom and know they are allowed to practice their religion in peace. I do not understand your reference to chaldeans and Sept 11. None of the terrorists were Christian. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on September 11, 2006) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3962 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Nice try, Arab and others. America was attacked in the most cowardly way possible on 9/11, using civilians (aka women & children) in civilian aircraft. 3,000 Americans were killed by monsters. Dearborn Arabs are still silent re: 9/11, and so are most Muslim Americans across the USA. What are your thoughts on jihad in the USA & Israel? Please speak clearly. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 755 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
ya know, as an arab muslim living in dearborn, i am offended by the comment that arabs and muslims sat quietly when 9/11 happened. i remember many arab or muslim americans grieving on 9/11, many arab nations condeming the attacks. i remember my family and others in dearborn were saddened and pissed off, because AS AMERICANS, this attack bothered us as much as the others. keep in mind, in a few short days after the attacks of 9/11, arabs and muslims, and anyone that looked like muslims were attacked by white racist intolerant jerks. remember the hate crimes that ensued afterwards? plus, another thing that many people dont like to think about is that the bin laden types hate arab/muslim americans just as much as they hate jewish/christian/atheist/india n/black/etc americans. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 518 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
I remember people panicking and filling up their gas tanks shortly after Hurricane Katrina hit the Southern United States. They were saying that the oil will stop coming. Now that I think about it, those people must have been involved in planning and executing that weather system.... | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2448 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.29.74 |
"keep in mind, in a few short days after the attacks of 9/11, arabs and muslims, and anyone that looked like muslims were attacked by white racist intolerant jerks. remember the hate crimes that ensued afterwards?" Yup, I remember five years ago Sihks getting attacked. They are not muslims, but hey, they are swarthy and they wear a turban so what's the difference? A boot on someone's face will not make you safer, even if that face does not look like yours. A boot on someone elses face today may end up on your face tomorrow. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1135 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
I can't speak for what happened here on September 11th since I was living in Albany, NY. I don't know much about what happened there because the entire metro area was basically shut down for three days. I only left my apartment for cigarettes. I do know that every time I had to drive to or past the capitol building or Governor's mansion the state troopers would stop me because I had Michigan plates. I tried to convince myself that the plate cover showed it was also from a dealership in Dearborn didn't mean anything... Who knows? And I also know that part of the reason I left was because of how narrow minded lots of NYers were about Arabs after the attacks. Coming from WSU, that was quite a shock. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1324 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
watched the replay of The Today Show from 9/11/01 that was shown on MSNBC this morning - one of the things that caught my attention was that even Yassar Arafat immediately condemned the attack that day. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.29 |
When 9/11 happened, I was in France. My uncles, grandparents in cousins all live in the US. I remember my cousins all shocked, in tears. Literally. Where some Arab-Americans silent? YES! Many of them. The 5 days after 9/11, more than 500 hate crimes were comitted. Mosques were being fired at, machine guned. I recall my grandmother not leaving her house for a week. My uncles, all successful Arab-Americans closed their businesses for 3-4 days. We were really affraid. What would happen to Arab-Americans? America did the horrible racial amalgamation when we started erecting concentration camps for Japanese-Americans. Many Arab-Americans really feared things would spin out of control. You guys want our take on Israel, terrorism and all sensitive issues? I don't care about Israel. I don't live there. I care about America, my home now. If fundamentalist christians and zionists are obsessed with their religious prophecy of gathering all jews there for the apocalypse, I am not, as are many American Muslims. We are here, in the U.S., at home, forever, and will build this nation and better it, as active, sturdy and darn proud Americans. Here's my take. And many other people. God Bless America. Why? Because it has given millions of Muslims a chance to rebuild, relive and feel like human beings. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7848 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Can you be any more idiotic. You are telling the people that live in the area that you know better than they what transpired and how their Arab and Muslim neighbors felt. Karl - The expert on all things regardless wht those that were there state. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3966 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Lilpup, Yassar Arafat condemned lots of violence - when the cameras were running. Behind the scenes he not only condoned violence, he perpetrated his share. He was a terrorist depite the fact he won a Nobel "Peace" prize. Thankfuly, Yassar remains in stable condition after resuming room temperature in a Paris hospital nearly 2 years ago, and hasn't been the source of any terrorism since that time. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7849 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Now Karl knows everything that happens when the cameras are shut off. Is there anything you aren't an expert on? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8779 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.53.97.7 |
On a national and international level many muslim leaders condemned the attacks. However, here in Windsor there was but a peep from the muslim community. Some of the local leaders (a few days later) expressed their regret but they expressed more worry about the backlash that they would receive from the local population. It was a far cry from the demonstration they had a few weeks ago with regards to the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah where they chanted "Hezbollah forever" over and over. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 72 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
Frenchmen Lets get this straight. WAR IS WAR, GET IT? Just who bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941. My father fought in WW2 ,Korean war and Viet Nam. Care to hear his war stories about prison campes in the south Pacific. Why not keep yourself in France, Frenchmen? After all seems thats the same place were all the cars were set afire as well as the problems that plauged Europe after the Danish REFUSED to give and allow Freedom of Speach and Freedom of the Press. Why is it Foreigners always come here , and will trash the way America did things previously. War is war, and WW2 was no different. Remember the JEWS, while you are remembering the Japanese. They were treated alot better than the Jews in the concentration camps. I wished you would stay in your Frenchland, ........ you are now on my ignore list. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1136 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
Then who's buried in his tomb in Ramallah? Or is that another nut-job conspiracy? | ||
Amy_p Member Username: Amy_p Post Number: 706 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.21 |
I am wondering what type of peep you would expect from the Muslim community members. I mean, I didn't make any noise, except to my friends or family, when 9/11 happened. Can't we assume the same for everyone, regardless of their religion? I'm really just trying to understand... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7852 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
No Amy_P it is much easier to make assumptions about an entire population of Americans based upon how they look. Karl and those like him do it very well. It used to be easy to hate the black community but that is now just done behind closed doors by the wackos. They have now let their anti Muslim/Arab communities become the target of their vocal and ignorant criticsm. That is the American way to some of the wack jobs that are still way too commonplace in this country. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 73 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
re: upper post Frenchmen-in-d. you state "What would happen to Arab-Americans? America did the horrible racial amalgamation when we started erecting concentration camps for Japanese-Americans. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.107.47.65 |
But does terrorism equal war? I say no. War is nation against nation. Terrorists act as their own group not as an army of a nation. It should be treated as a criminal act. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 30 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.66.252 |
I recall in the early spring of 2001 I was working at a grocery store in Farmington Hills one evening. A group of 5 middle eastern men came through my line together but paying separately for their items. For reasons I can't explain I was terrified in their presence, the hair on my neck and arms was sticking straight up, I felt evil all around me. Each young man purchased similar items: fruit, beer, razors and extra blades and paid with credit cards from Saudi Arabia. This was well before 9/11, I really had no basis for my gut feelings, it wasn't unusual for Arabic men to be shopping at the store, I just felt frightened. All the young men were I'd say between 20 and 35 years of age, each one had visible scars on their arms, hands and faces and each one had cold, hard eyes. I believe to this day these men were dangerous and it is scary to think they are still in the area. I know many Arab-Americans, I am not prejudice, I am not and was not racial profiling, I only know what happened to me that night has been etched in my mind and I can't erase it. Has anyone else ever been in the presence of someone evil and felt their hatred without words being spoken? I am not afraid of Arab-Americans, I am afraid of terrorists. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7853 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Do you feel the same terror and make the same assumptions when scarred, cold-eyed white men are in your prescence? | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 74 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
Amy, you said "I am wondering what type of peep you would expect from the Muslim community members. I mean, I didn't make any noise, except to my friends or family, when 9/11 happened" A proud American would come straight out and support his country. My dad told me that after 12/07/41, that there were so many lines of young American men waiting to join the service that they were not able to keep up with enlistment procedures. Every able bodied male from 16 on up wanted to join. Thats a true American. Some one whos not afraid to support his country Frenchmen-in-d was complaing about the Japanese camps in Cal in the 40s for the Japanese. He seems to forget the Japanse govt initiated the war. I guess they dont require History lessons when coming to this country Proud Americans voiced their anger for the attacks . They then PULLED TOGETHER, helped the victims, their families, donated money in unheard amounts, had numerours telethons for more money, and contributed millions for the families of those who lost loved ones, 3000 of them. Frenchmen seems to love to bash the U.S. for its policies, yet he forgets what young Mulsims did to hundreds and hundreds of parked cars in and around Paris. Look at the hell they put the Danish Government through for not giving up freedom of speach, for printing cartoon carictures. He seems to want to live in the U.S., yet bring his policies here for the U.S to uphold. I take it hes not used to our policies, our cultures, and the ability of women in this country to get educated, to drive a car, and to choose to marry on their own terms.... As I said, I have Frenchmen on ignore, nothing he spews about the U.S. is revelant here........ | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.29 |
Janesback, simply idiotic. Is it because Japan attacked Pearl harbor we had to send all Japanese Americans in concentration camps? You know that the U.S. Gvt officially apoligized for this "inhuman and shameful page of American history" Why don't you go to the Japanese American memorial. You'll probably have a better, more rational and educated view of things instead of being spoonfed bullshit. Good your gandpa fought for America. Why do I care? As did so many more. I am talking about how America interned its own citizens in camps, people who had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. To all people who are bitter about Islam in America, well, you'll have to cope with it. We are Americans. Muslims Americans and so much more condemned 9/11. let's not get back on this. It's funnny: having had a different education (French) I am shocked at what people consider "denoucing violence" and being "American" and supporting "the nation" To many iditiotics here, being supportive of America and being truly American and condemning 9/11 is slapping a sticker on your bumper and covering your car with non-sensical stickers ( we Support our troops, I support America, God Bless this and that) Is this how you support? With a $2 sticker. How insulting to America. The people who truly support/ed the war effort are our soldiers... the widows, the children who lost/are loosing their fathers. I support America in my own way. Getting educated, going to school, reading, making sure no discimanation passes by without addressing it. A proud, American citizen. Many of us tend to forget the importance of CITIZENRY. Unfortunately more and more people define being American as a fantasm: religion, war, God, this and that... Hey, you want to slap stickers on your car. Do it. But don't claim that this will make you more American than I am. I got naturalized a while ago and still remember the Officer congratulating me: "you are now home. You are American and no one will ever take this away from you" I felt so proud. So it's not some schmuk Janes back that will ever question this. Karl, Yasser Arafat is buried... you know that don't you?? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7854 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
How so? What are your beliefs about the millions of other Americans that reflected in their own way but made no public comments or actions? There is quite a double standard that you believe all Muslims and Arabs should have made statements and stood up for their country but let the rest of the population slide by without demanding that all white, black, asian American's take a stand. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1137 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
This thread has gotten hysterical. I still can't believe how some folks think it's perfectly fine to admit that they're racist against Arabs. Too much. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7855 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
So should we hold all Christians accountable for the horrible actions of the church over the centuries. Should we assume that all Catholics supported the molestations that happended by priests since not every Catholic stood up and denounced it? Where do you draw the line on the blame of the zealots. Most white supremacists claim that they are Christian. Should I lump all Christians into one group based upon their actions? Why do you see it acceptable to lump all Muslims and Arabs into one group based upon the small minority of zealots? If you are white and Catholic I will just from here on out assume that you are a neo-Nazi child molester. See how easy stereotyping can be. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1138 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
WooHoo, let's burn some Lutherans! | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7856 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Let's wait until devil's night then we can blame all of those 'horrible ghetto people' for it. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 31 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.66.252 |
Jt1, the only other time in my life I felt that unnerved and frightened was in the presence of a white man who tried to attack me. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8781 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.53.97.7 |
Amy_P, could the muslims not have joined in the assembly we had at the waterfront in unity? Could they not have been more outspoken like everyone else was? Instead, as I have mentioned they stayed away and said nothing. I met a few muslims (when the subject arose)that thought it was a horrible, heinous act. But again, the local leaders were more upset with the possible backlash from the community than anything else. I don't see how that is being racist in the least. It was just an observation. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 75 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
IN all the ceremonies going on today, in churches, synagouges, schools, the WTC site, at the Pentagon, the Shakesille crash site, and on and on and on, how many Muslims are standing in front of podeiums and in front of crowds , detesting the attacks on the U.S ? Simple question, now for an answer? Tell me how many , thats all I am asking? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6549 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Qweek, Heya, welcome. Don't try to explain spiritual ticklings to those who need everything scientifically defined. We don't get those gut instincts by mistake, yet western civilization ridicules them...or worse, relegates them derogatorily to emotional women. Good book says that the eyes are the windows to the soul. I am usually very much aware when someone totally given over to evil appears in my physical space. Just keep exercising that gut feeling...as long as it is tempered with logic and wisdom, you'll do just fine. I see NO evidence of any sort of profiling in your description...rather the opposite, as you fully considered your feelings immediately afterwards and again now with the recounting of that story. Cheers! | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7857 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
I don't doubt that. I am also am not accusing you of being bigoted but we all have biases that have been learned or ingrained in us over the years. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8785 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.53.97.7 |
^^ true^^ | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7858 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
And how many Asians? How many whites as a percentage of total population? Blacks as a total of population? What cracks me up is that you are either so blinded by hate or stupidity that you are making the assumption that you can spot a Muslim in a crowd. So tell me what does the typical Muslim look like? I hate to break it to you but not Muslims are Arabs and not all Arabs are Muslim. Your assumption of Muslims sticking out based upon looks says a lot about your mindset. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.29 |
Janesback, today, at the Muslim Unity Center (Bloomfield Hills) there was a commemerative prayer for all the victims of 9/11. The mosque was packed and full. At the Islamic center of America (on Ford road, Dearborn), they observed a minute of silence followed by a prayer to remember the victims of 9/11. The list goes on. I just gathered the MSA (Muslim Student Association) here at the University of Michigan (Ann Arbor) for a minute of silence and a prayer. We coordinated with MSA's and Colleges all over Michigan. There was also a national coordination of MSA's to organize prayers and rememberances. Muslims are probably not on TV because some heineous people like you don't want us on TV and get people to know that we are normal proud Americans. Janesback, I'm taking 1500mg of Aspirin here. You're giving me a headache. I have to get it off my shoulder (sorry): You're disgusting. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
not one bit of representation, nothing. no mosques, no leaders of the muslim community, nothing. how many times has it been noted for the past 5 years that the muslim community refuses to express rage about the attacks. how sad, how pathetic....... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7859 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
While since this would support your silly claims I think you need to supply us the number of times. I guess Frenchman's post noting specific places and events doesn't count. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.66.95 |
Thanks Gannon, as the years go by I have learned to listen more to my heart and that inner voice. You know, "when somethings not right it's wrong." as Bob Dylan once said. I really didn't feel I was prejudging these men because of their race, I had no reason to, I just couldn't explain why I felt so unsettled. Everyone of us faces racism everyday in some way or another. It is ugly, it pulls us apart, it hardens our hearts and blinds our eyes, I hate it, I think we all do. Peace to everyone, except the GD terrorists. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6550 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
There is a strong and certain whiplash that occurs when ANY Muslim leader openly opposes these extremists. How many of YOU would arrive publicly for your death sentence?! Any Muslim leader who stands against the fundamentalist extremists has an immediate fatwa on their head. Their entire life would immediately change, and they fully understand that truth. Same with anyone who dares think about leaving the religion...just name two ex-followers of the Prophet (pbuh) who continue to publicly denounce the actions of the most dangerously militant of their old faith. I am currently re-reading a book published by one of them...under an assumed name. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6551 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Damn, why keep it from those who need it MOST?! Heh. That MAY be some of the background why Jesus/Yeshua specifically told his followers to Love their enemy and turn the other cheek. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.29 |
Gannon, please keep your anti-Muslim feelings out of this forum. Thanks. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6552 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
What anti-Muslim feelings are those, specifically, Frenchy?! | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 77 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
Ganon, agreed. I think a few of the issues with Islam was the fact that 16 out of the 19 highjackers that killed 3, 000 innocent people practiced it on a daily basis, yet their leaders did nothing to lash out for their actions. Speaking about the issue of "speaking against" Islam, some years back a certain author, I think his name was Rashiidi had a bounty on his head as well as a death threat for writing a book about Islam and speaking against it. Says it all,doesn't it? | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 20 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.29 |
You know what the funny thing about Islam is Gannon? It's that non-Muslims claim to know most about Islam. Please don't bullshit about Islam, the Prophet's (PBUH) followers and fatwas. What you're claiming is ridiculous. Anyways, I waisted enough time here. A lot of studying left for today. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7860 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Says it all about the extremists, not all Muslims. You are having some sever issues differentiating the radicals. Of course I wouldn't expect less from an assumed skin head, child molester (assuming that you are white and Catholic) | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 78 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
Jt1, you wrote "You are having some sever issues" I take it then, English isn't your native language? Maybe you and Frenchmen could go to your local community college and take English 101 and History 101, and paying special attention when it comes to WW2. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 33 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.39.4 |
I can't say that I am ready to love, forgive and turn the other cheek when it comes to terrorists, I don't think I am capable of that! | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7861 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
You should have posted, "I take it then;" When all else is lost with your argument it is better to attack grammar or spelling. Now would you like to address the incorrect claims you have made or the stereotyping of all Muslims as extremists. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6553 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Janesback, That doesn't 'say it all'...it merely says that the most militant extremist of that particular faith can be quick to exercise what they understand is their explicit instructions from the Quran. Their understanding could simply be incomplete. Could be, and I hope that is the case. I think there is example of this in every religion...IF Christians took every explicit instruction in the Old Testament without regards to the specific instructions from Jesus in the New Testament, Christianity would show a much harsher face to the world...and one wayward woman in Jesus' time would have been stoned to death. I choose to study ALL the words in the Christian text through the filter of Jesus' specific and exact words, or at least as close as I can get given the inadequacies of translation. That leads me to be in direct opposition to those who claim they are following the book to the letter, dot, and tittle...when to me they are completely missing the spiritual boat. Search out any of the unbelievably tedious back-n-forth between Karl and I in any of the non-Detroit threads over the past few months for example... There are contradictory statements in both holy writs, both the Bible and the Quran have statements that directly contradict something elsewhere in the text. Yet, oddly, both are preserved with the dire warning that NONE should critically examine the texts versus the actions of the religion around it. That, to me, keeps all from fully growing into the fully-loving mere humans Allah/God intends us to be. So far in my understanding of this book I'm re-reading...there is a Islamic 'theological' school of thought that the later utterances of the Prophet (pbuh) trump or take precedence over the earlier statements...since there was a difference between his stance when in Medina versus how he was after returning to and conquering Mecca. Plus, I'm casually studying how tradition and history not only cloud the intent of the religions...but actually cause them to act in direct opposition to the basic desires that fill up the earlier portion of said text. Muslim Hadith and Christian Commentaries can add up to a horribly incorrect conclusion, if each miniscule or major error of understanding is NOT corrected fully as time goes by. Indeed, I am puzzled how a religion practised by so many loving and wonderful individuals could also foster such overt evil acts. Any religion. Another good book I've read, which will be coming back off the bookshelf onto my nightstand soon, is from a fellow who was one of the ONLY people the Iranian hostage takers would speak with during negotiations back in the seventies. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 79 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
You know, instead of berating people in here, go and help frenchie on his homework. He said he had to go back to studying, so instead of wasting your time and mine, help him. He's probably bogged down with remedial math, so email him and ask if you can help. Hes probably working on an associates from the local community college and would appreciate your help. I did notice that he got rather low key and ubnable to reply when facts and statistics were directed towards him and his ridiculous statements about WW2. I take it he decided to do something smart and study his remedial math as opposed to making a fool out of himself....... | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6554 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Thanks for the specifics, Frenchy. Let me know when you have the time to be serious about actually discussing this, instead of merely throwing darts about. Do you want me to start a thread about the Egyptian extremists and Omar Abdel Rahman's influence before he decided to emigrate to America?! Was Salman Rushdie's life ever threatened for daring to challenge the Quran in a FICTIONAL book?! Come ON, man, what to you is ridiculous? What is unfounded in my arguement?! When did I ever claim to know the most about your religion? I only claim to be investigating it...actively. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7862 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Now would you like to address the incorrect claims you have made or the stereotyping of all Muslims as extremists. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7863 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Gannon - I suspect that the comment was a generalization, not aimed specifically at you. I'm not certain but that is how I interpreted the post. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6555 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Qweek, You said, "I can't say that I am ready to love, forgive and turn the other cheek when it comes to terrorists, I don't think I am capable of that!" I don't think ANY of us are capable of approaching anything NEAR that, without the Spirit of the Maker directly working within us...and as far as I can tell, no religion has exclusive rights to Its presence. If only I could find a Sufi to 'party' with... | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6556 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Jt1, Thanks. Yeah, could be, but I did ask him for a specific comment...after he called me out for having 'anti-Muslim feelings'. I cannot see where I've let feelings invade this discussion yet...what I've introduced is historic fact and my still-forming understanding of the issue. I want dialogue...not division. Never want anyone to cut-n-run... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3973 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Janesback gets it right - while our president is speaking of the past and future today, along with our resolve that every nation should coexist peacefully, wouldn't it be 200% improved if he stood alongside leader(s) of Middle Eastern countries who shared those same goals? Gannon said: "Any Muslim leader who stands against the fundamentalist extremists has an immediate fatwa on their head. Their entire life would immediately change, and they fully understand that truth." And George Bush doesn't have a price on his head? It's called "get better security" surely they can afford it. Or do they know the immnensity of the monster that lies within? Does it strike anyone else as odd that 65 years after the beginning of WW2, we don't have bitter Japanese or Germans lurking around trying to regain power - or seeking revenge? When do a people (Muslim extremists) realize that there are those who differ from them - and those others will be here/there until the end of time? Further, they don't gain many followers when their mantra is simply to kill all who are not born into their radical bloodline. Seems like outsiders will get it (beheaded) one way or another. Reminder: Japan wasn't "converted" to Christianity, neither was Germany, in order to recover from WW2 and become peaceful and financially viable again. It would seem that ALL their peoples love freedom, what a novel thought. May the Middle East eventually evolve in the same manner. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 21 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.40.179.74 |
Hey Gannon, no cut and run for me. I'm back. As for Janesback... get a life. I do study and go to school! I will admit Gannon, I overreacted. It is very tense times American Muslims are going through. I see around me many active, young and successful American Muslims trying to show the nation the love we have for it and how we are trying to become, normal American citizens. I get particularly irritated when people like Janesback say that the Muslim community did not react to 9/11 when I've been working tirelessly for the past days with Muslim Student Associations from all over the country to coordinate a special 9/11 commemeration. ALL Imams did condemn 9/11 in America. The AMC (American Muslim Council) invited, in November of 2001, thousands of American Imams to attend a session in D.C. where it was decided, in conjuction with Sheikh al Tantawi (spiritual leader of the Sunni Ummah, AlAzhar Islamic University, Cairo, Egypt/ equivalent to the Pope), to ordain a fatwah on Ossama Bin Laden and his bunch of thugs. Unfortunately, these events are never mediated. I also get irritated when people lecture me about Islam. I think I know enough myself, having memorized over 150 pages of the sacred book. There was anothing against you or what you said. On the contrary Gannon, I appreciate your knowledge and time you put in your analysis. This issue is way to sensitive to be discussed on a forum dedicated to Detroit. If you have any interest, we could always chat over a coffee somewhere in Ann Arbor or Detroit. Farewell my friend. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1395 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The Dearborn rumor that has the most traction is probably the one which portrays Arab kids in some Dearborn schools cheering the 9/11 attacks. Is there any element of truth in this? Some rumors even say that some teachers in one or more of the Dearborn/Detroit Arab-based charter schools also behaved as above. In a similar vein, there was a report on a local radio newscast about a like happening in one or more of Cleveland's schools. Curious about this, I visited the online edition of the Cleveland Plain Dealer on 9/11 or 9/12 in 2001, and, voila, there was a short item about that too in that reputable newspaper. I bookmarked this little article and within hours, that story was pulled. So, was there a story about Cleveland's Arabs cheering the 9/11 attacks also, did they happen but are difficult to confirm, or are they just urban legends? (Message edited by LivernoisYard on September 11, 2006) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7865 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
That could apply to many more than Muslim extremists. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3975 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Jt1 - Please name other groups to whom it would apply today. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4321 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.236.229.212 |
The onliest thing jjaba knows about Detroit is its United Nations personality. In the 1950s, jjaba was at Cass Tech. HS and it had a sprinkling of Muslims, Christians, Asians, Jews, and non-believers. Probably half of us had parents like mine born outside the USA. Other cities are just now coming to understand living, playing, and working with others. We grew up with it. The newly opened Arab-American Museum in E. Dearborn on Michigan Avenue is wonderful. It traces the settlement in the USA and Michigan of the very families with whom we grew up. The museum highlights their heros, their industries, their religions, and their American experiences. After 3 hrs. there, any prejudice about "them" evaporates. It might be the best 3 hrs. of your life. jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6558 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Frenchman_in_the_d, No problem, it IS easy to over-react...when emotions are challenged and stresses hit from all sides...plus you, like me, have more things to do than babysit an internet forum discussion all day. I promise NOT to hold it against you and bring it up in every post for which I have no solid refutation!! I would greatly enjoy at least a cup of coffee (non-Starbuck's, or course) over any discussion of how we can work together towards peace rather than bicker over who is right or wrong...I truly think honest, open dialogue is capable of that...and the beauty of individuals of distinctly varied backgrounds sitting and working together would send a powerful message to any who might witness us. Funny story, I once cleared out the outside tables at the French Laundry in Fenton discussing things with a devout Muslim man who always hung out there...on a Sunday when the prettily-dressed once-a-week weak Christian folk huddled around for their after-service food and fellowship. Everyone was uncomfortable to the extreme that we would be comparing religious notes!!
That is what I see, as well. Less active, older and unsuccessful ones, too! Heh. May Allah/God help us all...why would they want to be 'normal' though? I've seen normal...and ordinary...can't we aim for extra-ordinary?! | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 204 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Jt1, you said: quote: Of course I wouldn't expect less from an assumed skin head, child molester (assuming that you are white and Catholic) ______________________________ ___________________ You have just proven that you are just as much of an ignorant biggit as those you seek to leacture. I hate to educate you, but the KKK, skinheads and other white supremecy groups hate Catholics just as much as Blacks, Jews, Muslums, etc. Us Catholic's are hated because the fools think we worship the pope as God. As for your weak line about child molesters, I guess you feel only preists do that sort of thing. You need to stop drinking the kool-aid of the folks who are out to destroy the Catholic Church and deal with your own racist fellings. Until such time, please keep my church out of your illogical rants. Thanks... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7866 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Detroitej - I was saying that to prove a point about stereotypes. The point was that it is inaccurate and unfair to use the worst of any organization to illustrate the entire organization. You may have missed the sarcasm in the post. I do not think Catholics are racist nor do I think the actions of a few sickos implicates the entire church. My bad about neo-Nazis claiming to be Christian. I ask that you re-read the post to see my point (with the exception of the incorrect religious affiliation) (Message edited by jt1 on September 11, 2006) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2779 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.137 |
I knew the moment that I read the first post on this thread that it was going to be a slugfest. So I won't get involved, except to say Gannon and Frenchman, I'll join you folks on that trip to the non-Starbucks coffeehouse. And we'll get Jjaba, our beloved Jewish forumer to join you as well! Then we can have an international discussion without the brutality...  | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7867 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Detroitej72 - One quick question since I addressed the fact that the post was sarcasm to make a point. I see that you are outraged at my incorrect or stereotypical misrepresentation. Why are you not addressing all of the incorrect stereotypes about the Muslim and Arab communities in the US? | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2977 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
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Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6565 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
D_s, You are quickly banking yourself up to a considerable hangover, if I can make good on buying you a beer for every one of those that make me smile. So far, this makes two that I remember...heh. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2978 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
lol Gannon... Well I can't take all the credit for it... After all I just shed light on the stupid that is already there in his posts yanno? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3979 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
From today's Best of the Web Today, by James Taranto: It was often said at the time that 9/11 changed everything. That turns out to have been an exaggeration. One thing it did not change is elite liberal opinion--as represented by the press, academia and the Democratic Party--which has fallen back on the adversarial attitudes it developed in the late Cold War era, which is to say the era of Vietnam, Watergate and their aftermath. Partly, we suppose, this is a matter of intellectual laziness. But partly it is because of an illusory similarity between the Cold War and the war on terror. If you assume 9/11 was a one-off, then the terrorist threat is a distant, abstract one, easy to move to the back of your mind while arguing about such trivia as the infringement of terrorists' civil liberties. Thus Los Angeles Times TV critic Samantha Bonar can sneer, in reviewing ABC's flawed Miniseries "The Path to 9/11," that "according to 'The Path,' the Clinton administration was too concerned with such trifles as respecting international laws and treaties, protecting civil liberties, following diplomatic protocol, displaying cultural sensitivity and pursuing larger goals (like Mideast peace) to bring down the bad guys." Which is an entirely accurate description of the Clinton administration, even if the picture takes liberties with the facts. The italicized clause in the paragraph before the preceding one is what the experts call "a big if." Our enemies, of course, did not intend 9/11 to be a one-off; if it is, it is only because the government--that is to say, the Bush administration--has thus far succeeded in preventing another attack on U.S. soil. Liberals' blasé approach to the terror threat will be wholly unsustainable in the event of another attack. Thus, paradoxically, opposition to the antiterror effort remains alive only because of that effort's success. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4388 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
I find some of these response just sickening, especially the expectations that all Arabs in the United States were suppossed to publicly display their anger at the terrorist. It's funny that no one was calling for, or expectiing, all whites, and the Christian community to publicly display their anger for the Oklahoma City Bombings. | ||
Firefly Member Username: Firefly Post Number: 82 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
See this what happens when you won't let go of shit that happened five years ago. Why keep rehashing this shit? It is over, said, and done. Memorials are being erected. Let those that want to cry themselves a river on America's "new national holiday" do so (year, after year, after year...) and see how far we all get. I say let it go. We should not be forced to deal with the tragedy of that day every frickin' year. Worse shit has happened in other countries. It is just stupid that America is still filling a hole in the effing ground with rivers of tears. Go ahead and enclose that hole, erect the effing buildings, and get on with business as usual at the former World Trade Center site (I refuse to call it ground zero because I hate this godawful war with a passion). | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 80 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
LMich, we did. He(McVeigh) was given a trial by the Americans, found guilty by American courts, then put to death. Thats how its done here. Innocent until proven guilty. He was no martyr, he will not have 16 virgins when he leaves this earth. The American public was satisfied with the findings, and even more satisfied that he is dead. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4390 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
He was, too, a matyr to many militant Christian extremists in this country, as were the folks killed at the Branch Davidian complex in Waco. I love how you brush it off so lightly. This country is nothing more than a massive double standard. This is one society for the majority white populations, and then a society for everyone else. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3981 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Perhaps I can clarify Lmichigan's words, they need a bit of help: "He was, too, a | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2979 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
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Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4393 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Don't parse my words, Karl. If you can't create your own, you shouldn't respond. You shouldn't be following me around, anyway, stalker. BTW, you can blame alot of things on the left; Timothy McVeigh is not one of them, so stop. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 11, 2006) | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 205 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Jt1 quote: Why are you not addressing all of the incorrect stereotypes about the Muslim and Arab communities in the US? ______________________________ ___________________ I was simply pointing out how you used an incorrect stereotype in your argument against incorrect stereotypes. Threads like this sometimes bring out knee-jerk reactions from us. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7868 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.15 |
My stereotype of religious affiliation was incorrect. The rest was to show how absurd it is to assume that the zealots represent everyone in a group. I assume that you see my point now and that it was not meant as an attack of any religion or group as a whole. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 22 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.29 |
Hello all, this thread is going on and on. I propose that we keep this forum clean of any racist/assumptionist statements but dedicated to Detroit. Islam, terrorism, Zionism, Christianity creates an explosive cocktail and never-ending discussions. I propose that we could meet sometime next week-end and extensively talk about it. Anyone know a nice spiffy pure-Detroit place (a.k.a gritty, cheap beer (alcohol free of course! lol)), or... in Ann Arbor... easier for me! heh! It would also be a great opportunity for me to get to know a lot of you and get more of your expertise on Detroit/MI related issues! Time? Place? Later I hope! | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 207 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Jt1 quote: I assume that you see my point now and that it was not meant as an attack of any religion or group as a whole. ______________________________ ___________________ Yes, point clearly seen. Now lets join hands and sing Cumbyah! | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2451 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.29.74 |
good idea...Amsterdam Cafe? Slows is nice, but they serve pork you know... I'm not sure what the bigots are expecting...are muslims expected to parade around the entire metro area with signs denouncing terrorism? Do middle aged white guys make public apologies everytime a berserk gunman-of-the-week-type goes into a public place and starts shooting people? You wanna find out what muslims are thinking, go hang out where there's muslims and talk to them... Of course, that would require getting up off of yer lazy conservocrite asses. It would take a plane flying into your subdivisions for that to happen. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7869 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.12 |
Detroitej - Glad to hear that I clarified my more than likely ill worded point. If I were to sing then I am certain that I would offend every religion, race, ethnicity, age, sexual orientation, etc. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 81 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.14.138 |
lmich, you said He was, too, a matyr to many militant Christian extremists in this country, as were the folks killed at the Branch Davidian complex in Waco. I love how you brush it off so lightly. This country is nothing more than a massive double standard. This is one society for the majority white populations, and then a society for everyone else. That wasnt Tim McVeigh, that was David Koresh. Regarding the trial and jury process, our next one will be John Muhammed, the Washington. D.C sniper .......... | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 209 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Lol, my singing is just as bad! | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6573 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
I'm game...I just cancelled a Minnesota/Montana/Arizona trip, delayed it into early October, actually. I'd LOVE to get through that Charles Kimball book again first...the Islam and Terrorism book is more evangelical or proselytizing than I prefer this far along my Mystical quest. Good information, just not deep enough to really seem to grasp the solution. I'm far beyond right and wrong here...it is so-o much more likely that we're ALL wrong!! | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 23 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.29 |
well guys, I guess you choose the place and I follow. I really don't know the awesome Detroit-blooded bars. give me a time and place. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6576 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Amsterdam Coffee house has extended hours...and the strongest thing they serve is espresso. It is just off the Wayne State University campus. Haven't been there yet, but keep hearing good stuff about them. Far as I know, they don't even HAVE a karaoke night...heh. But I could bring my acoustic guitar! What days are BAD for everyone?! Perhaps we can 'fuzzy logic' our way to a range of beneficial meeting times for everyone...then choose one from there. Cheers! | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 756 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
gannon, good to see you fighting the good fight in another forum. peace be with you. but your on your own here I just got back from work, so I am a little tired. But there is one thing that I find hilarious. Some of you are/were expecting arab-muslims to stand in the middle of mostly white american in a public space and light up a candle with them? I am not expert on mob mentality, but what do you think would happen to that arab with the darker skin and facial hair, or to that woman wearing hijab (scarf)? I said if before, I will say it agian. I will wear a shirt stating "I am arab and I condem the 9/11 attacks" as soon a whites start wearing a shirt saying "I am white and I don't hate black people" back to the hillarity... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4394 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
lol @ Mike! I like that last paragraph. If people have to go around marching, waving flags, and wearing t-shirts to show our patriotism and solidarity, than American is further gone that I thought it was. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 12, 2006) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3983 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Silly people. Folks show their patriotism in all sorts of ways. But that wasn't the point. The President of the United States speaks out with the position of our country when we are attacked by terrorists. I asked for leaders in the Muslim community (beginning with local) to publicly speak out via TV, radio and/or newspaper editorials against terrorism, not only against the USA but against anyone, worldwide. It hasn't happened. Mike, you've skirted around the issue numerous times on this forum. As an American, if there is terrorism on our soil, it ought to be hunted down and killed, regardless of the source. Somehow the Arab community can't quite say that yet. As I said earlier, why isn't there a leader of a ME country standing side by side with Bush, like Tony Blair does? Do you see the Middle East in 65 years being as peaceful and prosperous as Japan and Germany are right now - and with the lack of resentment for the USA? It doesn't seem promising when we hear that 100 million Muslims are extremists - and supposedly more are getting angrier by the day. Of course, Iraq is blamed. Really? And what was the excuse for this fanatical anger before we invaded Iraq? What caused 9/11? The WTC in 1993? The Cole? Etc etc. It wasn't invading Iraq. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4395 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
It hasn't happened? I can't find anything locally, but MANY Muslim leaders in this country and beyond came out against these attacks. Yahia Basha, president of the American Muslim Council condemned the 9/11 attacks on October 9th, 2001. Dozens of Islamic scholars and professors from dozens of American univisities publicly came out against terrorism on September 17, 2001. Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London, publicly came out against the attacks on September 28, 2001. Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai of Pakistan came out publicly against the attacks on September 28, 2001. Seriously, I could go on and and on, but this false idea that you and other's keep propogating that no one in the Muslim world spoke out (and continues to speak out) is not only offensive to sensibilities of any thoughtful person, but is just flat out wrong. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 12, 2006) | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 454 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.107.47.65 |
I asked a friend who teaches in Dearborn about this. He said:
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Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 887 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 193.32.3.83 |
"I am a Muslim myself, and I felt offended by your message." Frenchman, I'm offended that you're offended. ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3989 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Lmich, sorry, but it's not enough. You live in/near the largest settlement of Arabs outside the Middle East. Your point that you couldn't find any response locally is well taken. Further, all your quotes were from 2001, 5 long years ago. Where are these "leaders" and I put that in quotes because I don't see them leading anything today. Did they publically comment against Hezbollah when Hez snatched the soldiers and killed more? After the repeated bombings worldwiDe, with deaths all around? I appreciate your search and the results, but perhaps you'd agree that it is a weak (nonexistent would be a better description) effort on their part, which should speak volumes around Detroit. (Message edited by KARL on September 12, 2006) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3581 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.222.10.3 |
Sure, many denounced the 9/11 attacks BUT, what about when the folks in Dearborn took to the streets in the thousands to show support for Hezbollah, an organization that has murdered hundreds of THEIR fellow citizens. Yeah, it goes both ways. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3993 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Thank you, Patrick. I understand that the protest parade caused a few problems, including the attitudes that no permit was necessary and trashing the streets was OK. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 82 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.11.161 |
DEARBORN – Heat in excess of 95 degrees couldn't keep over 5,000 Arab Americans from marching this past Tuesday. They were rallying to protest Israeli attacks on the Lebanese infrastructure and Israel's bombing of Qana. Interesting, not any representation what so ever from the Muslim community to express outrage for 9 11, especially from the fact that 16 out of the 19 of the plane hijackers were Muslim....... Numerous memorials , prayer services, and walks were held yesterday in honor of those murdered on 9/11, yet there was no representation or presence from the Muslim community detesting attacks against the U.S. They choose to stay silent and instead march against Israel....... kind of says it all Patrick.. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2980 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
First Karl states:
So becuase they didn't do it the way you wanted them to they quietly condone terror? Then LMich replies:
Seems like a few International Arab leaders and others of Middle Eatern descent spoke out against terror.But of course it wasn't enough as we see the hippocrite contradict himself with this:
Despite what he tries to justify it with in the rest of that post. SO because local leaders didnt do it to his liking, in his mind I guess they are potential terrorists...right Karl? SMMFH @ conservacrites, and lol @ Mikes post | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6582 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
There is a strong and certain whiplash that occurs when ANY Muslim leader openly opposes these extremists. How many of YOU would arrive publicly for your death sentence?! Any Muslim leader who stands against the fundamentalist extremists has an immediate fatwa on their head. Their entire life would immediately change, and they fully understand that truth. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3996 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Really, Gannon? Perhaps you can list a few Muslims that have been gunned down in the USA after speaking out against 9/11. More scaremongering. Stylin, how about if a few African American leaders speak out for AA rights every 5 years or so. Enough for ya? When it's about you, folks better be stickin that pacifier in every few minutes or so. But every 5 years is OK for the Muslim world - at least when you're trying to lash out at Y-T. Nice try, both of ya. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6597 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Good, at least you read those comments the second time I posted 'em in this thread. IF these extremists are as multi-national we think, dearest Karl, why would YOU limit it to just those threatened in the USA?! To the extremists, Allah has given them the whole world...and His Sword (from their understanding) is infinitely large...and it is their DUTY to pick it up and use it to achieve what they believe is their destiny. The entire earth under Islam...dead or alive. How much bandwidth, time, and energy would you like me to use? I am loathe to provide ANY of that only for YOU, because all evidence points to the conclusion that you not only do not consider it, you actively disdain anything negative against YOUR conclusions before it is even presented to you. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 83 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.11.161 |
Ganon, so your point to Karl is..........? | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 69 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.54.213.11 |
When I read about religious fundamentalists, of whatever flavor, I thank God I'm an atheist ;-) And my personal theory is this: If you are so anxious to meet God (whoever your God is) you should just kill yourself and leave those of us who are quite happy with being alive, alone. The end comes too quickly as it is, so why rush it? The vast majority of people, regardless of their religion, just want to be left alone to live the life they want. It's the jerks - most of whom claim to be divinely inspired - who have to ruin everything. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7874 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Let's look at the stats for for Karl: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr Hate crime reports. The Jewish population is the overwhleming target of religious hate crimes but let's look at the trend of % of religious based hate crimes against thos eof the Islamic religion: In summary (% of total religious based hate crime): 1999 - 2.2% 2000 - 1.9% 2001 - 27.1% 2002 - 10.8% 2003 - 8.3% 2004 - 13.0% But of course Karl insists that all those of the Islamic faith should have been out and about and protesting the attacks. Maybe if our ignorant citizenship didn't choose to target believers of the Islamic faith following 9/11 they would be more willing to allow their voices to be heard. But Karl insists that there is no reason for people to stay out of the public view, even if the hate crime rates have gone up drastically since 9/11. **All stats are from FBI uniform crime reports and can be found at www.fbi.gov | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6601 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
My point is the extremists have threatened to and followed up on killing those they deem infidels...anyone who is willing to 'sell out' their understanding of Islam. 1948 Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud Nokrashy Pasha. 1949 Attempted against Prime Minister Abrehem Ad El-Hadi, but they got a Supreme Court Justice instead. 1954 & 65 attempts on Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser 1981 Egyptian President Sadat assassinated, apparently from the orders of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. You might have heard of this guy...he is now in an American jail for the first attempt on the WTC. From unsubstantiated but credible reports, he is still spreading his hatred from his jail cell...despite the efforts from our government to contain his words. Tell me that the effects of EVERY national leader getting killed throughout the sixties didn't put a damper on political activism against the establishment...the same sort of terror-installed manipulation is being practised by the extremist Muslim Jihadists today. Which of us will step up, speak out, and place our necks on the chopping block?! | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6602 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Thanks Jt1, that is another perspective I hadn't quite considered...although it appeared in more than a few Islamic 'apologist' comments. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 84 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.11.161 |
Jt1, since you have stats on hate crimes for Arabs, what about other groups of peoples ....... Gay people have hate crimes committed on them daily. In the work place, in their neighborhoods, as they go out at night, they face crime as well as our Arab neighbors. There was the Matt Shepherd case, where two men took Matt Shepherd out, attacked him, beat him and tied him to a fence post in Wyoming to die, which he did 2 says later. All in the name of hate. The gays protested and paraded. You may want to note that gays are proud, they have gay pride week, parades, street fairs, and have gay student associations on campuses, as well as having one school, I think in NY , that allows teen aged gay students to attend, because of the gay bashing they had been receiving in their local schools. Remember Stonewall in the late 60s, when gays attacked the police dept for illegal raids of gay bars in Greenwich? Also, Blacks have parades, black history month, black associations, etc, but they dont back off and hide. They speak up, contact local ACLU, or the NAACP when dealing with hate crimes or racism. These groups dont sit back idley and succumb to fear. They deal with hate crimes in their communities as well. Why do you point stats that show an increasein crime and assume that , because of an increase in hate crimes, that they should stay silent and not be vocal? Thats really a strange post. Are you suggesting that Arabs be afraid, not make waves because of an increase in hate crimes? .... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3998 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Silly Jt1. So the answer to hate crime is: (drumroll, please) STAY HOME AND HIDE IN THE CLOSET Much of what I hear on these threads is "let's talk and find common ground" but for Muslims, they must shut up - or talk quietly - within the USA when they support the USA and are upstanding citizens?? Lots of contradiction and double standards coming thru here............. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7875 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Janes - The point is that there was a large spike in hate crimes against Islamists. Any hate crime is horrific in my eyes but the sudden spike speaks about your claim that all of the Islamic faith should have been out denouncing the attacks. Maybe they were reflecting on them in their own way due to fear of making their beliefs known or out in front of everyone. I am lucky in the fact that I am not in a group that is targeted but I understnd why the Islamic community may have wanted to be a bit more low key.
They do and they should, as should all of us. They did not however see a large spike in hate crimes targeting them. Do you understand such a basic concept?
At that point in the US, yes I can completely understand people of the Islamic faith being afriad for their safety and the their families. PS - Not all Arabs are Islamic. You really hurt your claims when you mix up the groups so easily. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4398 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Karl, you'll believe only what you want to believe, and no one is going to tell you otherwise. The audacity you have in coming here and pretending you actually want to debate and learn is astounding. Nothing I or anyone else says will statisfy you because you don't want to be satisfied. You can live in your world of absolutes and black-and-whites with no in betweens, but you're going to be called on it. You can close your mind, put on the tunnel vision, and think one second into the future, don't think I'm going to indulge you in that; I'm going to call you on it. Forget the fact that the Islamic Society of North America came out against the London bombings last year: "To those who seek to divide us through fear or hatred, we will not allow the voices of hate to defeat the voices of unity and goodwill," Or the Islamic Circle of North America: Islam holds the sanctity of human life at the highest regard, and shedding the blood of innocent people is considered a most heinous crime." Or the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee: "horrified by the series of bombings that rocked London's public transportation" on July 7. The committee encouraged all Americans to come together to support the British people." Or the Coalition of Islamic Organizations of Chicago: "..unequivocally condemned the attacks. These attacks are an affront to Islam and to Muslims all over the world including Muslims in America. They are in no way a reflection of Islamic teachings, which order Muslims to preserve and protect life." Or the Muslim Public Affairs Council condemened: "...the exploitation of people and issues, regardless of the perpetrators and their justifications. This assault is unmistakably an act of terrorism, an attack against humanity," Of the Council on American-Islamic Relations: "...join Americans of all faiths, and all people of conscience worldwide, in condemning these barbaric crimes that can never be justified or excused," Some of you seem to think that Dearborn is the capital or seat of Muslim organizations in America. It's not. There is no capital. The major organizations have seats in Washington, Los Angeles, New York City... (Message edited by lmichigan on September 12, 2006) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7876 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
I am not advocating anyone hiding. I am simply stating that when your community faces a huge spike in hate crime some may choose to stay home to protect themselves and their families. Obviously you have never been or known someone victized by a hate crime but I ma guessing it weighs on the psyche of a community. Why aren't you out in the community trying to offer an olice branch for discussion instead of condemning the entire population? It is easier to criticize than to try to understand and help. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 85 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.11.161 |
"At that point in the US, yes I can completely understand people of the Islamic faith being afriad for their safety and the their families." ------------------------------ -------------------- Maybe its the ignorance issue then, thats what its got to be then. I dont have all the answers, only trying to get educated here, or at least understand.... As the mix up, I agree, I come from an area of the U.S that has an extremely low number of Arabs or Muslim population. I can truly say I am ignorant on that issue, and for that I do apolgize. I think I am going to make this my last post, its too emotional like one poster stated in a former post. Yesterday was really upsetting to many, this may be why people are tense right now. Getting educated on this subject will help me understand, thats about the only solution for me I can come up with. Thanks again for listening. Jane | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6605 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
There is a strong and certain whiplash that occurs when ANY Muslim leader openly opposes these extremists. How many of YOU would arrive publicly for your death sentence?! Any Muslim leader who stands against the fundamentalist extremists has an immediate fatwa on their head. Their entire life would immediately change, and they fully understand that truth. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6606 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Thanks Lmich, too much energy spent on my part talking to a brick-head or two. Back to work... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4399 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Gannon, please stop using that argument. I don't think that's the reason, at all, and if it is it's a weak one considering how many lives were endagered in the Civil Rights movement, yet it moved forward. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4324 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.236.229.212 |
Shalom and thanks to Gistok for his kind words. If he were Jewish, he'd be called a Yiddische Mensch. jjaba. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6609 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Have you studied anything about the Muslim extremists, L?! Why specifically do you say it is weak?! One of the FEW modern overt critics of Islam only survived because he had a string of safe houses to live in up in England after the Fatwa was issued for HIS head...I'm sure Salman Rushdie is still looking over his shoulder occasionally. I believe that the Ayatollah Khomeini's order was rescinded, but cannot find any proof of that on-line. I compared it to the sixties, because I think a similar force worked there...nearly eliminating organized resistance to the establishment. I am not a fan of what those in power attempt to do in order to sustain THEIR hold on it. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4403 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
I don't think you get it. The movement of the 60's moved forward in spite of those that menaced them. If what you say is true (and I still don't buy that Muslim leaders aren't speaking out against terrorism, and that's just not true), moderate Islam should be moving foward inspite of extremist. (and, it is) | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6611 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Oh, I think I do. I never said they weren't speaking out against it at all. I said the harsh and exacting reaction against them keeps them from willingly going public often. Every ONE of the moderate Muslim that I know are against the actions of these extremists, yet are horrified by the actions of our government in reaction to them. Most also look at Israel's unwillingness to release all the prisoners that Hezbolla requested as a justified reason for nabbing those two Israeli armypeople that started this last shooting spree. Not a one of them thought it would escalate like it did, they simply wanted to get the focus of the world on the fate of those last few people that Israel would not release. Hell, even the head of Hezbolla said a similar thing...if he knew the reaction would be so harsh he wouldn't have allowed the kidnapping of those uniformed men. So, for a 'statement' action that many thought justified they once again are looking at a totally destroyed Lebanese countryside and infrastructure...and a growing portion of the populace that is more than willing to act on their hatred of Zion. (same type of over-reaction as we did in Iraq, with a similar whiplash effect from previously non-militant people...MOST of those killed in the Lebanese action were civilians, and those who survived now have a uniquely justified newfound hatred of all things Jewish) Doesn't make it correct or right in the overall scheme of things...and it is dazzling to any of us here in the States outside of Islam and/or the Lebanese national mindset...or even the more westernly-obscure Arabic emotional responses. Since 9/11, I've done my best...outside of actually joining the religion...to learn their perspectives and justifications for actions that we deem horrible and outrageous. Overall, Islamic logic is distinctly different than that fostered in a free democratic republic...living under Islam couldn't be MORE contrary to that here...so this has been an extraordinarily difficult task. Even this last book I re-read was filled with so much reaction as to fan the flames instead of calming them down...so I took what I could of it positively, and all but ignored the call to openly evangelize and and all under Islam with a deluge of Christian 'love'. I fear it would be too much like Karl and his ilk's tough 'love', and cause the same wonderful response in the world. I'll love everyone I meet, but will NOT compell them to join my group or take on my still-somewhat western mindset. IF they ask, I will tell them what has gotten me to this point in my spiritual understanding. If they cannot see the love I have for all mankind, then either I'm not doing something right OR they are yet unable to recognize a free flow of love and forgiveness and willingness to serve. Or something else I had not considered yet...that could probably be plainly obvious to anyone not stuck behind my perceptions. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4008 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Amazing how Jt1 blathers on about "hate crimes" and never mentions the "hate crime" that took place on 9/11 against Americans. And Gannon daintily gushes about "nabbing those two Israeli armypeople" but conveniently not mentioning the killing of 6 other soldiers in the process - all on Israeli soil - a minor detail Gannon omitted that wouldn't have bothered any other nation save for those silly Jews, right?? Gannon, get real: it's called evil, similar to the evil on 9/11 - hunt it down and kill it, like Israel did. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7877 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 4.229.102.92 |
Sounds like someone is justifying the increase in hate crimes against our Islamic Americans. The 9/11 terrorist attacks were terrible, that does not justify or support an increase in hate of Americans, regardless of their religious beliefs. You are an idiot Karl. I certainly hope that your company has no Muslim or Arabic clients. they would love to see you spew your hate. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4404 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Yeah, even if it means killing tens-of-thousands of innocents in the process, and radicalizing the moderates those that survived. Please, you want to talk absolutes and deal in good and evil, try looking in the mirror. You are just as intolerant as the people you seek to kill, at any cost. You don't delouse a dog by shooting the fleas off of it. If you're not going to fight tough and smart, you needn't be fighting at all. I can't wait until you chicken-hawks and extremists in this country are all pushed back under the rock you all came from under. You are exactly why this country is less safe, and more hated than ever. Overreaction doesn't help America, as the world implies, it hurts. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4010 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
No one is promoting hate crimes here, Jt1 & Lmich. However, if you, after 9/11, can't see the difference between hunting down terrorists and random hate crimes on both sides, you'd better get new glasses or hunker down, because the terrorist hunt will be continuing for awhile. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7878 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 4.229.102.212 |
I realize that you are not promoting them but you seem to dismiss them rather easily. I doubt the families that have been victimized by hate crimes can dismiss them so easily. The terrorists need to be brought to justice. The Islamic families in this country need to be respected as citizens just like yourself and your family. | ||
Kova Member Username: Kova Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 141.213.190.115 |
Islamic Statements Against Terrorism http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/te rror.htm | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7879 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 4.229.99.139 |
You see, those don't count because Karl and the likes want every Islamic person to speak against terrorism without the same expectation for the rest of the citizens of this country. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6614 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
The hate crimes have increased in part BECAUSE of the administration's lead in the charge against terrorism...both in an incorrect direction AND with increasingly divisive and hurtful language (not to mention a few VERY poorly chosen military action Titles, oops I guess I DID mention it, what of the Crusade-lingo battle plans?! Heh) isolated the Islamic community, even though he seemed determined at first to speak clearly that Islam wasn't our enemy. Haven't heard that disclaimer in a while...jeez, Karl, if you want continual spoken words from the Islamic leaders you should want the president to repeatedly come out against this in-country racial and religious violence as well. Your and his silence on this matter is damningly revealing and is an indictment of the ENTIRE legion of evangelical protestant christian community throughout the land. Simple minds that do not wish to delve deeper into the issue, perhaps beyond pigmentation or chosen holy book or eating habits, will usually react poorly when presented with anyone who resembles their mental image of the enemy. When W charged into Iraq...without regards to the consequences of his actions...HE led those within this country by allowing them justification for their bad behavior. without regards to the consequences of his actions without regards to the consequences of his actions without regards to the consequences of his actions Sorry, I've started to repeat myself on my most pertinent observations because some of you seem to miss them. I'll try to keep that in check... | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2983 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Kova let me help Karl with that since he's just gonna call ya a Lib anyway:
| ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6615 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Missed your weak analysis of my commentary, Karl. I was repeating what I heard from my Muslim friends. Please bone up on those reading comprehension skills. Go back up there and read it again...every thing from the statement "Every ONE of the moderate Muslim that I know..." ending with the phrase, "...growing portion of the populace that is more than willing to act on their hatred of Zion." deals with my understanding of THEIR comments to me during discussions. I used to divide my posts into paragraphs until a few of you ridiculed me for too many spaces. I'm going back to them, because it helps divide the various comments into more cohesive sections for your reading comprehension ease. The ones it makes crazy deserve it. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6616 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
! DISCLAIMER ! This statement was constructed as sarcasm in order to make a point. Please don't come at me trying to tell me I'm hypocritical by saying this, I am merely working another perspective into Karl's request for commentary and apology.
| ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4013 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Gannon, I've come to accept your spacing, though perhaps it still irritates others. I think the air between your words reflects the air in your head. So blather on, and load it up with all the airheaded spaces you want. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4406 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
I find it ironic that those that subscribe to the ideology that Karl does, are JUST as much moral absolutists as the Islamic Fundamentalists. For both, the world is nothing more than a black-and-white picture of clearly defined good vs. evil with NO grey matter. "Kill the terrorists" with terrorist being an ambiguous term that happens to mean actual terrorists and anyone in the way, and "Kill the infidels," are far too similar for my tastes. Moral Absolutists destroy absolutely. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 12, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4407 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Karl, and now you're resorting to personal attacks against Gannon? (i.e. calling him and airhead). Great, just great. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4014 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Lmich, if I had been on those planes on 9/11, I'd have stormed the cockpit with a fireaxe. How about you? Don't play silly games with my words. "Kill the infidels" means women & children, along with otherwise peaceloving soldiers - and you know it. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6620 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
L, You apparently have never spent time over on the non-Detroit side?! I'm one of Karl's favorite targets, albeit one too easy...I'll admit. Don't hold it against him, this is how you realize he has exhausted his bag of Foxnews- and Protestant-induced catch phrases and has NOTHING to say in refutation of any real value whatsoever. Another is when he brings out the equals sign.
I don't know if you were going for a pun there, but one usually associates 'grey matter' with the brain...and even if unintended, it is brilliant! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4410 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
I love how people try to evoke the events of 9/11 for emotional effect, and to "one-up" someone in a debate. It's a cheap and tawdry act meant to throw out logic and bring in an argument base soley on emotion. Gannon, totally unintended, unfortunately. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6635 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Yeah, especially since we can't even take fireaxes ONTO planes any more. I cannot believe you accused our dear Karl of being cheap and tawdry...now Manrooter's going to be stalking him. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4413 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Huh? @ the first sentence. Fireaxes? Should we be able to? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4015 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Not you, Lmich - doubtful you'd use it. But certainly the cockpit crew should have a few as well as other surprises in case anyone manages to get up there. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 757 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
karl, i will pay for the shirt. what size you want? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4415 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
I see. I thought he meant letting passengers carry them on, which is what confused me. BTW, it's funny you'd try to make it out like I'd willingly let someone hijack the plane I was on. You better believe I'd be one of the first up whoopin' some ass to the best of my ability. lol You got the wrong person stereotyped, buddy. You don't think any liberals helped bring down the plane in Shanksville? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6639 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
L, It was a bad joke. He boasted about attacking any hijackers with one, and I was pointing out the ultimate ridiculousness of the statement. We've NEVER been able to bring fireaxes on planes, outside of checked baggage, of course. Remember, Karl suffers from ultra-bipolar diametricism...either you are nodding alongside him, marching in lockstep with your shiny new jackboots on...or you are the worst of evil incarnate, with a target on your neck for said jackboots. There is no grey matter there, either. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 24 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 141.213.141.235 |
My God, all of a sudden everybody became an expert of Islam and the evolvement and changes taking place within the Islamic society IF there is one. Gannon, you seem to state that Radicals took over the religion and that anyone speaking out loud in the community is a death sentence, This is the most absurd, erratic, unfounded, disconcerting statement I've ever heard. You seem to think that these radicals took over Islam and that everybody is affraid of speaking out?? Goodness me. Still down for a coffee this week end?? We REALLY have to talk. And no, no sheikh or fundamentalist will be following us to chop my head off and chant "Allah Akbar" whenever I will condemn 9/11. I promise. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7886 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Karl and the others - any comments: http://www.clickondetroit.com/ education/9839832/detail.html Teacher Arrested, Accused Of Anti-Islam Tirade Woman Escorted From Maryland High School "The Washington Post said she reacted after overhearing the group utter an Islamic greeting of peace. Charging documents allege McVey shouted, "Islam doesn't mean peace, it means killing everyone for peace" and "Because of you, our families died in New York!" ------------------------------ ------------- But all Islamic people should be out in public denouncing the attacks every day. Sure, and all Americans are willing to greet them with open arms. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 88 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.12.23 |
Jti, seems theres a double standard in all this. It was stated from the article that "Police said McVey became upset when she heard some students at Gaithersburg High School, who were being assisted by another teacher, practicing a speech and using some Arabic words" So what you are saying is that its relevant that the students can be able to practice pronouncing Arabic words, etc, but if memory serves me right, wasn't it the Muslim community that were boycotting the Danish government for FREEDOM OF SPEECH??? Come on now, its NOT ok for this teacher to stop these children from speaking Muslim words and sayings, but its definitely OK to stop the Danish govenrment from printing cartoons and practicing their Freedom of Speach?? Talk about double standards....... MAS Bulletin – February 7, 2006 Muslim organizations hold meeting with Danish ambassador WASHINGTON, D.C. - Leaders of American Muslim organizations met with Danish Ambassador Friis Arne Petersen to discuss the cartoons appearing in the Danish press depicting Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as a terrorist. The candid and frank discussion focused on proactive ways to address the issue currently reverberating throughout the Muslim world. Mahdi Bray, Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation Executive Director, suggested that local Danish Muslim community voices are pivotal in order to understand what he describes as a anti-immigration backlash in Europe. Islamophobia in Denmark and throughout Europe has increased as many Europeans blame new immigrants (many from Muslim and Arab countries) for diminished employment opportunities and/or low-wage living standards. Bray reiterated that MAS Freedom strongly condemns the cartoons, but also condemns the reaction to cartoons through acts of violence by some Muslims. "Personally, I don't think we would have received such a prompt response for a meeting if the Danish economy wasn't losing millions of dollars daily due to the boycott of Danish products throughout the Muslim world," asserted Bray. "As a Muslim, I can understand the emotional intensity of the issue, however, responding through violence does not uphold the dignity of our faith," he said. "Burning buildings and throwing bricks is definitely not the answer. Muslims united and using their economic leverage, now that's something the world can respect." MAS Freedom is reaching out to Muslim and faith leaders throughout Europe and has been invited to Denmark to participate in a community forum for religious understanding. Read also: Timeline of the Cartoon Controversy http://www.cbc.ca/news/backgro und/islam/muhammad_cartoons_ti meline.html (Message edited by Janesback on September 13, 2006) (Message edited by Janesback on September 13, 2006) | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6670 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.47.53.101 |
Sorry for the misunderstanding, Frenchman, I do NOT think the extremists rule the roost at ALL. Their presence, though, certainly can influence the actions of reasonable people. Even if they merely cause one teetering on the verge of choosing to make a public statement against extremist actions to doubt the call to speak out...then they have succeeded in silencing folks enough to allow people like Karl to think that NOTHING is being said. I was merely trying to make a point with L_mich when she wasn't understanding why I kept bringing it up. It is more an undercurrent of influence than anything overt. Any cleric who understands and fully believes that Allah is All Powerful will NOT let anything like a threat on their life keep them from doing what they know to be right and true. Yes, absolutely, on that meeting...never got any responses on my 'fuzzy logic' approach to nailing down a meeting time. That means I was trying to find out what times were BAD for each of us, so we could eliminate them from our range of choices, and THEN get closer to agreeing on ONE certain time to meet. I HAVE been busy trying to finish re-reading that Kimball book that I'd love to have you and the others read for our group discussion...but it is obviously NOT necessary for the first meet. Another is At the Entrance of the Garden of Eden by Yossi Halevi...and I had one from the Muslim perspective recommended by a law student from Minneapolis that I met on the Biblical Archaeology website, but I'll have to search out my Outlook backup e-mails to find the title...it was NOT available through Amazon.com. JUST remembered it...Abraham's Sons...have you heard of it?! Let's just make this a meet and greet sorta thing, and see how our personalities mesh before moving on to anything else. I'll start a thread...probably titled something like Hopefully Heading Towards Unity or something like that...and see who might be interested. If it ends only being Barnesfoto, Gistok, you, and me...that will be a successful enough start of this possible group. At least we can see IF anything is possible... Cheers! | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 26 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.40.179.74 |
Sounds like a deal Gannon Once again, I'ma student in Ann Arbor and the only time I can be in Detroit is on Week-ends... oh.. and I'm getting my darn Driver's license suspended Sept 29th. So anytime before, Saturdays or Sundays is perfect! | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2942 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.155.193.90 |
Hmmm...what happend to your diplomatic immunity Frenchman? | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.40.179.74 |
haha! Good one... I just hit 11 points in less than a month. Really... no luck. I got pulled over 4 times last week on I696, M14, I275 and I75 and all speeding (respectively 80 on 65, 85 on 70, 80 on 65 and 92 on 65) Im screwed, my insurrance perium is going to hurt, and the fines are going to itch... | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3584 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.209.158.170 |
God-damn. I have been driving for 8 years and have never even been pulled over. Knock on wood | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2943 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.155.193.90 |
No seriously Frenchman, what happend to your diplomatic immunity? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6675 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.47.53.101 |
F_in_the_d, If we have to do it in A2, we'll have to plan it around some cool concert at Hill or the Ark. Better yet, I'll pick you up at the train station. So yes, we'll do it this weekend. We procrastinate with the FIRST meeting, it'll NEVER happen. Is Friday or Sunday better for you? Saturday is already taken...all day. Cheers! How many of these tickets are in the same jurisdiction?! You might be able to skirt the staggered increase in fines if you pay them all immediately. Each court will NOT see the other violations, and you MAY be able to simply pay the original first-violation fine. If not, you're screwed. This is, perhaps, not a case of bad luck. You might need a twelve-step group!! We 'might' be able to have our meetings excused from your suspension, if you tell them it is your 'true' work. Heh. You driving the speed limit in the right lane yet? Mebbe you need to have some serious liposuction on that right foot. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.40.179.74 |
Friday night sounds good gannon. where? call some other peeps. i can still drive though. But i think I've never driven so slow and over-cautiously before as I am now. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 34 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.42.171 |
F'n the D, what kind of car are you driving? Just curious. You need to buy an old Volkswagon or something that'll keep you slow and steady! OUCH. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 29 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.40.179.74 |
Well, the problem's been the car. '03 Acura 2.3 CLS 5 speed. That has not really helped. I got 220 h.p on a red 2 door coupe. And the car is very flashy too. Cops love me...  | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 35 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.42.171 |
I thought so. I test drove a new GTO recently and as much as I loved it and couldn't stop smiling behind the wheel, all I could see for my future with a car like that would be high insurance premiums and me sweating on the side of the road illuminated by blue lights. Best of luck to you, a red car to boot!!!! Did you know that people who drive red cars have more tickets than anyone else? | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 30 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.40.179.74 |
Qweek, is that true or an urban legend? red cars getting more tickets?? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6681 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.47.53.101 |
My buddy put an exhaust manifold on his...and probably a new intake as well...and chipped it (I think). It hauls, and makes the MOST wonderful noises under the hood when he sticks his foot into it. He needs a twelve-step group, too. How many do you need for a quorum? I still waste him in inclement weather though, in my Quattro with a meager 190 hp. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 36 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.42.171 |
Urban legend of course, but enough of one that has prompted studies. I think "red" just draws attention, your eyes are drawn to it. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 758 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
in detroit, cars trasend all... including race and religion. I love it. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6682 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
LOL. Mike, you available to hook up with us on Friday night, near the Wayne State campus? Frenchman, I'll check the Amsterdam Coffee house hours...it is likely we can grab a great cheap dinner at a Middle Eastern joint on Warren just east of Cass, then meander over to the coffeehouse for some caffeine-fueled talk. I'll start that Unity thread now...had too much work to do today. Heh. It'll be on the Connections side...I'll title it "Aiming for Unity"...it's got a nice ring to it. Cheers! | ||
Al_t_publican Member Username: Al_t_publican Post Number: 101 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.55.239.10 |
For the record, Frenchman, I am not a Republican but rather a small L libertarian. (Also, I haven't vote for a major party prez candidate since McGovern in '72.) My disdain for conservatives and liberals is fairly equal. I view the two major parties as being worshippers of the state and willing managers of military intervention. Fundalmentalist Islam far surpasses the fundalmentalism of all world religions combined today in terms of violence and being anti-progressive. The combined GDP of Arab countries is something like that of Spain. But critiques of Islam here are not anti-Arab but rather a criticism of Islam that has not contributed any thing to the world in centuries and now is aghast that the world is moving on and that modernity is encroaching on their old world. By common definition I am an atheist because I do not subscribe to theism. But I try to keep somewhat quiet about that as too many religionist and rightwingers go nuts when you say you do not believe in the single supreme switch puller theory. My wife is an immigrant from East Asia and a devout Buddhist, but while I respect her rituals I am not much swayed by her religion. The young Arab axegrinders I saw in Chaldean Hall that tried to disrupt the citizenship ceremony I mentioned was nothing new to me. We know now that there are "some" radicals in the mosques who are fueling their anti-West and anti-Semitic attitudes. I also sense that many Arabs and Muslims have quietly exposed potential violent radicals. I commend them for that and hope more within that community do the same. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 582 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
Frenchy-in-da_D--get an old K car. The cops will never give it a second look, and well--you won't have a speeding problem either (they are naturally goverened) | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 759 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
gannon, i would love to. but i have work till 10 pm on fri hopefully some other time. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4027 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Alt-Pub: I agree completely with your views on fundementalist Islam, you seem to see the current situation clearly. You bring clarity to this situation. While I do not agree with your political and (non)religious views I support your rights - these are your choices as a free American living in a democracy, and thankfully we are both able to exercise those choices and openly discuss them. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 99 Registered: 08-2006 |
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraq's government called on Muslims on Saturday not to attack the country's small Christian minority in response to remarks by Pope Benedict that have angered Muslims. The door of a church in Basra was attacked overnight, in what appeared to be the first strike on a Christian target in Iraq since the comments. "We call on all those who love God's prophets not to carry out actions that will harm our Christian brothers here," Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said in an interview with Iraqiya state television ------------------------------ ------------------------------ - Well Frenchmen-, do you think the Muslims will start burning cars in Paris again, just because some one says something against the Muslims' religion that they may not agree with. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 761 Registered: 11-2003 |
that so stupid. the anti-muslim and anti-christain, heck, the anti-relgion undertones that sneak out of every political or religous leader in the past few years has people overeacting, like there is this big conspiracy to wipe out muslims, christians, or whatever. people need to chill out, especially us that belong to the three monothestic religions, sooner or later someone has to explain to everyone that there the same crazy stories with the same characters. I love the george carlin bit, how does it go? something like... "my god has a bigger dick than your god" blasphemy, I know, and I do apoligise. but something has to give with these stupid news blurps that come on every now and then. who cares, plus, jane, what dose that post have to do with "dearborn on 9/11"? | ||
Scofield Member Username: Scofield Post Number: 36 Registered: 07-2006 |
Islam is NOT a religion of Peace! KNOW THE TRUTH! LINK 1 LINK 2 | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 287 Registered: 05-2006 |
Nice try Scofield, but your links also happen to be anti-Catholic. In order to be taken seriously in this debate, I recommend you look for other sources to back you up. Do not be fooled by hate organizations that claim to be Christian, but have a very un-Christian message. |
