  Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 85 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.252.3.122 |
Take a look at this article and picture in the article........ http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20060906/new s99/ 60906011 (Message edited by Dtown1 on September 06, 2006) (Message edited by Dtown1 on September 06, 2006) (Message edited by Dtown1 on September 06, 2006) | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2946 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Link is bad... | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 331 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.65.11.152 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060906/NEW S99/60906011 | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1272 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
i don't see room for light rail tracks (As mentioned in the light rail thread) on that cake | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 332 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.65.11.152 |
Maybe they meant light butter cream. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 39 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
I thougth I was reading The Onion when i saw that article. | ||
Machoken Member Username: Machoken Post Number: 1462 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 207.145.38.104 |
How is that any different than what's there now? | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 333 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.65.11.152 |
This shows a little more info.... http://www.michigan.gov/docume nts/MDOT_M-1_M-102_Constructio n_Pamphlet_169574_7.pdf | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 278 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 24.169.224.43 |
Hmmm...that doesn't quite look like $16 million worth of improvements...perhaps they should take some more bids... | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 377 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.28.200 |
I can't believe they aren't going to tear that ugly ass thing down. I can think of a lot better ways to spend millions of taxpayer dollars. (Message edited by chub on September 06, 2006) | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1129 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
If you tear down the bridge you still have to spend millions of taxpayer dollars rebuilding the north/south portion of the interchange anyway. This was cheaper. | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.28.200 |
Ok, so it's the cheper way out. Somtimes that's not the best thing to do in the long run. To me, that bridge has been a sort of way to mentally disconnect the suburbs from the city. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1124 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.42.98.224 |
I have a feeling what they are doing is making the foundation and bridge supports capable of handling the weight of adding elevated light rail in the future. | ||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 28 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 67.38.83.5 |
Chub - I agree. It may be more expensive, but there is an astetic appeal to tearing it down. A new traditional intersection or a roundabout might even have a residual effect on housing values in the area. That monstourisity is extremely unwelcoming and butt ass ugly. | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 111 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 216.111.89.3 |
As long as it's kept clean, well lit, and patrolled regularly....it's fine with me. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1164 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.60.45.70 |
I miss the giant spark plug sign at the intersection. | ||
Greeno11 Member Username: Greeno11 Post Number: 45 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 66.237.123.67 |
I didn't see the homeless people under the bridge on that cake. Geez, nice replica | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2759 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.171 |
They'll have to go back to the drawing board... someone left the cake out in the rain.... and that was their only design prototype! | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7825 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Page 2 of the pdf is priceless. They show people out for a leisurely stroll because that happens so much there. | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 1081 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.221.183.120 |
I have seen a few people out for a stroll in that area - asking for money, sometimes in exchange for certain "services". | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2949 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Yeah I forgot all about the giant spark plug that used to be at that intersection... | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 349 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 70.236.201.253 |
Dumbass Car-Heads win again with the rebuilding a Dumbass Bridge. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1938 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.79 |
The surrounding communities (Ferndale and Green Acres) were strongly in favor of tearing the thing down and building a new bridge that was to grade that would actually connect the two communities instead of separate them. The bridge has a huge impact on land values in the area south of 9 mile along Woodward. The bridge creates a half mile area of no-man's-land in all four directions. However MDOT strongly pushed to keep the thing and their "study" showed that the huge monstrosity "had" to stay. To further their agenda, MDOT had the bridge listed on the National Register as an engineering "marvel" for it's time (In talking with several civil engineers it truly was cutting edge from a traffic and structural engineering standpoint). The listing on the National Register and its designation as "historic" means that no federal funds can be used to demolish or rebuilt a new structure on that site. That in effect makes demoing or rebuilding something reasonable impossible since federal funds provide the vast majority of funds for the vast majority of road projects. The improvements to the bridge will include stabilizing the facade of the bridge to keep it from crumbling or falling off; replacing the entire road surface down to the dirt; replacing the bridge girders; improving turning radi for trucks; making improvements to the "pedestrian" areas to meet ADA requirements; and (what I like to call "lipstick on the pig") adding some streetscape enhancements to the area with pictures on the bridge, "enhanced" color on the bridge girders, and landscaping. The consultants on this project (the Coronado (sp?) group out of Kentucky) were really touting the streetscape enhancements on the project as a great thing for the community. I don't know if they truly believed what they were presenting, or if they were just saying what MDOT wanted them to say because of the money involved in the project. The consultants were like a PR firm spinning shit into a polished turd and telling folks it was a diamond in the rough waiting to be mounted on a wedding ring. Anyone with half a brain could see right through the project as an agenda being rammed through by someone in Lansing with an ax to grind against Tom Barwin and/or Detroit. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 128 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.20.35 |
I met with some of the leaders from the Green Acres neighborhood and they wanted the bridge to remain. So did many of the residents on Ferndale's south end according to a previous Detroit News article. They had major concerns about cut-through traffic within their neighborhoods. (BTW, it's Corradino.) | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1941 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.79 |
I'd chalk those concerns up to poor planning and poor public policy work. That bridge is a community planning nightmare on numerous fronts. There is no reason a good planner couldn't have presented an alternative with a grade-level intersection or at least an intersection where the tallest point was at grade in which folks would have seen the obvious aesthetic and economic benefits to blowing up that hideous bridge. | ||
Mcpd1300 Member Username: Mcpd1300 Post Number: 125 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 24.192.24.162 |
Concerns about "cut-through" traffic? Give me a break. The bridge should've been torn down. It's an eye sore and totally obsolete. So, let me get this right, MDOT has an obsolete traffic calming device designated as "historical" and now we can't get rid of it. This is absurd. Though, we've all seen what a "historical designation" actually does for some of the demolished buildings downtown. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1361 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Corradino is most probably the same firm that did the original MDOT study for the DIFT in SW Detroit, now probably planned for Ferndale after the resistance became too intense for the original plans from the 1990s. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1166 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.60.45.70 |
Here is a photo from 1948 of the intersection before the bridge was built. Can you imagin what it was like to travel that route before any freeways were built.  | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1362 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"Can you imagin what it was like to travel that route before any freeways were built." In 1948, the population and traffic were much different than today. Back in 1950, the money went much farther, too. Two cents bought a Popsicle or a pair of Hostess Twinkies, for example. Newspapers cost three cents, and people complained like hell after the paper's price soared to a nickel! Or when Popsicles and Twinkies hit three cents a few years later! You always must take the times into consideration. Most people alive today have few references to the past some 50+ years ago. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 88 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.214.180.51 |
Interesing thing connecting this to the Light Rail forum.... 1. Why do we neeed a light rail. We probably have more overpasses and bridge intersections that any city in the nations. 2. Unlike most cities, most of the streets here are long track and wide. although Chicago roads are similiars to Metro Detroit, they also have a larger population and a busier CBD than Detroit. They also have much worse traffic jams. 3.There's only a 10-30 min commute into downtown detroit from most suburbs. So there's not enough traffic to build a mass transit system. 4. 98% of Metro Detroit owns a cars and can or will be driving. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1167 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.60.45.70 |
True LY, but 1 min. still took 60 seconds. I bet with rush hour, it took some time to make it through that intersection. Recall also that the State Fair Grounds were the end of the line for DSR. That generated a lot of car traffic. | ||
Rockcity2windycity Member Username: Rockcity2windycity Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 69.220.232.24 |
all i know is that i gotta find a new route home from work | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2760 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.240 |
I think an acceptable compromise to this rebuild could have been just removing the over pass. Leave 8 Mile as the underpass, and put Woodward at street level. Yes Woodward would have a stop light there, but it would have removed an impediment to better development of the area. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 742 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.173 |
man that would be a nightmare of an intersection... we should do a test run, close the bridge and underpass and make everyone travel on the street levels with a stop light and see how long it is before people start bitching and traffic jams are all along 8 mile and Woodward. You can leave that for the suburbs, those mega intersections. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1025 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 146.9.52.18 |
Viziondetroit, That's basically what we have this week with the bridge closed and all traffic using the surface level road. It took me 40 minutes to get through that intersection last night at 5:30. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 743 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.42.23.2 |
Crew... I'm sure the people who say tear it down, don't drive those intersections... typical thought process | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1928 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.48.189 |
Not quite, in order to use federal funds, they'd have to go through what's called a 106 Review process (it's a reference to Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act, which mandates the review). A 106 Review definately complicates things it's still possible to demolish the bridge in the future. | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 809 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.8.52.129 |
Dtown, 98%, Where'd you get that figure? When forumers spit out numbers, they usually back them up somehow. So, where did you get that percentage? I know, you pulled it out of your ass. later - naturalsister | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1946 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
Fnemecek, while I know the 106 doesn't completely prevent demolition, the way MDOT is supporting the rehab and opposing the demo makes it pretty darn near impossible to demo and rebuild the intersection with federal funds since MDOT is the gatekeeper of federal transit money in Michigan. Furthermore the money being spent on the rehab will prevent any new major work from happening for a long time on that intersection. MDOT had no good reason to declare the intersection as historic other than to stop it from being reconfigured. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4366 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Natural, I believe Dtown is around 13-14 years old. You must take this into account when dealing with him. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 95 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.9.204 |
Lmichigan and natural, my statistic are correct. since we dont ahve mass transit, people must drive a bus, cab, or car. Also, people's children will know how to drive a car around the city, this is a metro area of over 3 million peole and that 2 percent i left out is a large amount of residents. And so what if I'm 13 or 14, I'm probably one of the only 14 year olds who truly care bout the city to be on this site. So michigan, kiss my 14 year old behind. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 96 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.9.204 |
Also, it takes around 10 min to get to downtown to my house in a car. I live along 8 mile rd near Gratiot. so I know my statistics are correct. Next time, time yorself when yall come into downtown. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 750 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.42.23.2 |
^^^^ lol^^^^ | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 605 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.213.230.209 |
I didn't think I'd ever mutter these words, but... Tear that SCHITT down! | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 459 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 198.175.55.5 |
Dtown1, it may very well take that long off-peak. However, it takes longer than that during rush hour, which is the most common usage of mass transit. I live in Chicago, and I use my car from time to time, but ONLY in off-peak and weekend hours, or when the El doesn't go where I need to, which is infrequently. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 108 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 70.227.86.106 |
Actutally, I been to and from downtown during rush and it only took a 10 or 15 min ride if you drive like your suppose to! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4374 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
The time it takes to get too and from downtown from the edges of the city is not the issue, at least not for me. Not everyone owns a car (and most certainly in Detroit where something like 30% don't have one). It's about options in transportation, and freedom of movement. I don't care if it takes 5 or 50 minutes. That's a moot point as far as I'm concerned, and is not an valid argument against mass transit. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 109 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 70.227.86.106 |
your not reading my thing a said own a car or ARE ABLE TO OR WILL BE ABLE TO..... I never said they had to own a car to BE ABLE TO DRIVE Yes it is a valid argument. It likely takes a hour to and from work in a city like Chicago or LA and likely 2 hours in NY just by car. And by the way, I dont care what's a valid argument, this blog doesnt say only discuss what LMichgan think is a valid argument. Find a dictionary you dummy. You must dont know the meaning of a DISCUSSION. PROBABLY CANT SPELL IT EITHER. I WILL REPORT ABUSE! | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 752 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.173 |
^^^^ double check your thoughts before calling the grammer and spelling cops... :-D | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1387 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"Grammer" and spelling cops? | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.173 |
:-D | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 166 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Where were all of you missed off informed citizenry when MDOT had its environmental assessment public meetings? F is correct, the 106 process asked for input from all impacted counties and cities, and also went a bit further by taking it to an environmental assessment. Traffic moves through this area very well, both along Woodward and Eight Mile. The bridge will allow buses, cars, and goods to move between ferndale and Detroit. Detroit supported the bridge. It is most likely that if rail is to be an alternative in this corridor, it will move down the railroad right of way so that stops can be made linking Downtown Detroit with the Royal Oak and Pontiac transit Centers. It would only be a few blocks from Woodward in Ferndale, and link in nicely with the Birmingham/Troy station project. Therefore any talk of using rail along this Woodward itself is bunk. Busses will still be needed along Woodward for shorter hops. This way, we get an expansion of the transit system, not just replacing buses with trains. These would be real improvements that would link places where people live and work. I'm not saying that people don't live and work off Woodward, but the infrastructure is already there for transit centers in Royal Oak and Pontiac along the railroad. A transit center has dedicated ROW from a developer, and funding from the state at the Birmingham/Troy Border. You're not thinking systemwide, you are looking just at the Woodward Corridor and desprately trying to apply what others have done (mostly because they did not have the rail road ROW so they did the half-assed, run the train down the road idea. Once the AA to Detroit line is in place, Woodward will most likely be next. Please people become involved in the planning process early. You are acting like this is some sham and it has been planned for six years! | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 41 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.215.243.198 |
I went through that intersection earlier today, and the main problem I noticed is that people trying to turn left from Woodward to 8 Mile were not following the temporary signs directing them to make a Michigan left. Instead, many of them were just turning left from the temporary through lane with through traffic on Woodward backing up behind them. I thought the signs were pretty clear: to turn onto 8 Mile in either direction, stay in the right lane and turn right, to continue on Woodward, stay in the left lane and go straight. | ||
220hendrie1910 Member Username: 220hendrie1910 Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.217.79.153 |
Psip wrote:
Uh, no, that's Livernois & 8 Mile. Here's the 1949 view of Woodward & 8 Mile:  | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1176 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.60.45.70 |
Opps! |
