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Mumbly
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Username: Mumbly

Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.252.126.162
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The October 2006 issue of Dwell magazine has an interesting article (pp. 201-219) on Detroit's revitalization efforts. The piece also looks at what's going on in Grand Rapids and Chicago.

Overall, the tone of the article is fairly positive towards Detroit. It discusses everything from Campus Martius to the Michigan Land Use Institute to Minoru Yamasaki's One Woodward building. Unfortunately, the photos of the city look pretty bleak compared to the photos of Grand Rapids and Chicago. (Considering Dwell magazine's focus on modern architecture, I'm surprised the article didn't even mention Detroit's Mies van der Rohe Residential District.)

Oddly, the author felt it necessary to get in at least *one* blatant dig at Detroit---describing the People Mover as "a train that circles over a city no one wants to be in..."
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Soulsauce
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Username: Soulsauce

Post Number: 175
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.74.12.6
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think my Dwell subscription just ran out. I'll have to check out the article.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 69.246.45.147
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 3:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DPM is an easy target, but it's always full around sporting events. I'm doing research for an article on it and have a hard time believing how they ever thought it would be extended to New Center. That and how they had projected 1.5 million riders a year. And that was 19 years ago.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4320
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 3:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't see what's so funny about the ridership. It exceeded 2.2 million in the 2001-2002 cycle, and had 1.5 million in the 1999-2000 cycle. And, even though ridership fell during the construction on the RenCen which stopped the full loop, it still posted a ridership of 953,753 in 2004, and 1,792,924 in 2005, so it's definitely back up to where it used to be. In fact, according to the DEGC, the ridership for just the first 6 months of 2006 1.4 million. It's a train to nowhere, but it's certainly not useless or shunned.

(Message edited by lmichigan on September 02, 2006)
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 69.246.45.147
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 4:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, I love the DPM. I take it from Fort/Cass to Grand Circus all the time, even though I could just walk. It's a great way to see the city on the cheap. I'm not knocking it at all. I'm just surprised at some of the plans and expectations that it had out of the gate.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4321
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 4:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, the maximum capacity of the current loop is something like 15 million a year, so it definitely didn't live up to its expectations.

BTW, on further research, I found these numbers for the DPM ridership since 1996:

1996: 2,048,900
1997: 1,711,000
1998: 1,989,100
1999: 763,000
2000: 1,485,900
2001: 2,197,200
2002: 2,186,600
2003: 1,267,900
2004: 953,753
2005: 1,792,924
2006: 1,400,000 (first sixth months)

It's definitely back on the rise, and with more activity coming on line, downtown, I don't expect it to fall again barring more construction that would interupt the loop.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 69.246.45.147
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

haha, I had a typo, I meant 15 million, not 1.5. yikes. It is 4:30 a.m., afterall.
Not doubting you at all, Lmich, but where'd you find those numbers? They couldn't have been easy to find unless they were recently reported. That's crazy how up and down it goes. 1.5 million to 2.2 million to 1.3 two years later.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4322
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 5:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The numbers up until 2004 were found on some amatuer transit-related site, and 2004 on were courtesy of the DEGC. The up and downs are generally related to when the loop was damaged or blocked, but no always.
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 617
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.7.133
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 7:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's really cool how ridership this year could approach 3 million, but a more likely final number will be 2.5 million I'm guessing. I know the super bowl REALLY boosted the DPM's ridership this year. Will this year be the DPM's highest ever annual ridership? What did numbers look like when it first opened?
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 68.43.44.249
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I were in charge of expanding the People Mover, I would add two new Loops.

The first would be the Midtown Loop which basically travels from the Grand Circus station up Brush St to Kirby St near the DIA then down Cass Ave back to the Grand Circus station. Stations would include: Stadium District, Brush Park, Mack Ave, Medical Center, Museum District, Detroit Institute of Arts, Warren Ave, W Canfield St, Parsons St, Cass Park, Foxtown, and Grand Circus.

The second would be the New Center Loop which has a less straight-forward route. It would start out at the DIA station and wind around to Cass Ave. At the highway it would jut over to John R and travel north to Grand Blvd. After traveling along Grand Blvd it would turn onto 2nd Ave, make a quick turn onto Lathrop, another onto 3rd St, and another onto Pallister St. It would then travel to Poe St and turn towards Grand Blvd. After it turns onto Grand Blvd it travels to 3rd St and then at Amsterdam St it juts over to 2nd Ave. It then Takes 2nd Ave down to Kirby St where it meets the DIA station again. Stations along the New Center Loop would include: Detroit Institute of Arts, Arts Center, Medbury Park, Milwaukee Junction, New Center, New Center Commons, Pallister St, Henry Ford Hospital, W Baltimore St, Techtown/New Amsterdam, and Wayne State University.

I think for the extended system to truly work it has to have two-way traffic. Maybe doubling the stations but only having the one path between the stations could work, assuming the trains are timed accordingly. Otherwise I don't know how wide a two-track system would be, especially on the narrow Cass Ave.

Here is a crappy map I made of the system, including the Downtown Loop. I had to cut it into two sections because of the limited size of images allowed on the site.

Detroit People Mover SystemDetroit People Mover System 2
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1252
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are figures according to Dennis Green of the DPM, when I asked about ridership on the offical website: thepeoplemover.com

"The total ridership from Jan. 1, 2006 - June 28, 2006 is 1,407,379 people. We anticipate reaching 2,000,000 sometime this fall! Keep riding -- you're helping! "

Originally he had stated that 3 million was a possibility after the big Super Bowl rush, but now 2.5 million should be reached...
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1253
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way, when originally announced by the Young Administration, the ridership figures were expected to be 60,000+ DAILY, or about 21,000,000 annually
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Rjk
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Username: Rjk

Post Number: 473
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.41.145.5
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
On that list what explains the 2 million plus riders in 1996? They'll surpass 2 million this year, but haven't hit that total in the 3 previous years.
Didn't the Greektown Casino open in 2000? Just about everytime I've taken the PM from the casino it's always pretty crowded at that station.

It seems to me that with all that's going on downtown the numbers should be a lot higher over the last few years opposed to what they were in 96.
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Dillpicklesoup
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Username: Dillpicklesoup

Post Number: 167
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 64.7.187.108
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

maybe kwamee could sell the dpm-
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Digitaldom
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Username: Digitaldom

Post Number: 514
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 24.192.148.150
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool map.. Yeah I asked that question along time ago.. And someone told me the figure to expand the system was insanely high.. Though I wonder if the costs have gone down.. Since Miami has a nearly identical system, and they are expanding theres.. Most the difficulty I understand is land costs.. But if the DPM does not go on property lines and sits in the median or otherwise makes me wonder.. Yeah a line up to DIA and Wayne state would make a huge impact on the city and I ridership as well.. Though I would like to see all 3 casinos joined onto the loop as well..
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4331
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rjk,

Again, you have to take into account the months and years when the full loop was down.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1255
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the high 96 numbers may hvae something to do with GM moving downtown. The RenCen did not have as much parkign available, and workers were probably not used to walking around downtown, so the people mover got more usage....
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4340
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The RenCen didn't have as much parking in 1996? Really? I think the GM move had a lot to do with it, but I don't think it had much to do with parking. One should also take into account other big office moves in an out of downtown over this time such as the Guardian and One Woodward nearly going empty among other things.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1107
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.60.105.164
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although I love walking around downtown, the DPM is very useful when the weather is bad, or in the case of being downtown yesterday, when you have a pregnant wife who doesn't want to walk everywhere. If you are a bus rider, the way the routes have stops, you can very easily see how the DPM was intended to be used. To get off and ride the loop to where you need to go is very easy. Another benefit of the DPM is for guest which we are getting more of thanks to more out of town conventions and sporting events. I know the American String Teachers Association that I am a member of is having their National convention at the Ren Cen in early March, and they mention the DPM on their website as a perk of Downtown Detroit.
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 716
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 7:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

By the way, when originally announced by the Young Administration, the ridership figures were expected to be 60,000+ DAILY, or about 21,000,000 annually





quote:

Yeah, the maximum capacity of the current loop is something like 15 million a year, so it definitely didn't live up to its expectations.




The prediction of 21 million rides per year would have easily become reality if the entire DPM system was built.

The downtown People Mover loop was built to be the central hub of a large system, with lines running out of the center loop along the main streets that fan out from downtown Detroit. The DPM was never intended to be a stand-alone downtown train system.

The DPM is considered to be a disappointment and a failure by many people, but the trains are packed full during any big downtown event.

During my 9+ years of living in downtown Detroit, none of my friends or family members from the burbs have ever had any worries or complaints about riding the DPM. The vast majority of my suburban friends and family wouldn't ride the bus if you gave them a thousand dollars, but they will get on the DPM without a second thought.

The DPM works quite nicely as a downtown loop. It is cheap to ride, it is clean, it is safe, the trains show up every few minutes, and the route features some very cool views of the city.

The only real problem with the DPM is that it was never finished.
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 24
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 69.136.11.178
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm no expert but are any mass transit systems really designed to make money? I wonder how many systems aren't running a deficit?

I thought they were intended above all obvious things, to stimulate the economy and growth and that would outweigh the cost of the system?
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1261
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lmichigan,

well, it may not have been parking, since they have since lost the riverfront lots, but a few structures right in the area have been built...
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Motorcitymayor2026
Member
Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1262
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

stecks77,

you are right, mass transit systems are subsidized and generally always lose money...obviously the economic stimulus should outweigh the costs of the system
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Leoqueen
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Username: Leoqueen

Post Number: 1408
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 67.38.9.143
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hudkina, I like your map and plans. And as a Detroit artist, I would like to put my dibs in on the commission for art for one of the new stations, preferably the one closest to the DIA

But something tells me not to hold my breath until the call for entries goes out!

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