Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Reviving downtown Windsor « Previous Next »
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 279
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 207.61.38.86
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is always talk about reviving downtown Detroit. But what about reviving Detroit's twin across the river, Windsor.

I have to say on my last trip to Detroit, we stayed in Windsor and it was very sad to see the shape the downtown is in. Windsor is known for having one of the most decayed downtowns in Ontario.

Aside from the nightlife, downtown Windsor was very quiet during the day.

What would you guys propose to revive your the heart of your neighbour across the river?
Anything you can come up with?

What weakness do you think Windsor has?
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1185
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 35.11.221.92
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i would say one of windsors biggest strengths and weaknesses is the same one: it is directly across from Detroit.

Obviously, it is able to attract many people and events since it is so close to a large american city, but it also loses out to many events in downtown detroit...
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Rustbelt
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Username: Rustbelt

Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 69.95.235.30
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gambling really isn't a solution to city's problems. Windsor has relied on it to pump up its downtown, but it's not a good idea. Restaurants go inside the building instead of as storefronts. Casino's also drag a seedy crowd to the area. People who gamble usually aren't the best and brightest. Niagara Falls, New York is a big gambling town and the city looks horrible.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 617
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.216.143.252
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor needs to make Jason's formal attire only again. That would help.
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Tomoh
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Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 255
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 216.80.4.207
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 1:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aside from Toronto, I didn't realize Windsor was in such a decayed state (but I've only been to London and Hamilton to compare). How much can be attributed to 9/11? One way to drum up daytime tourism might be formalizing the Chinatown area and advertising and adding signs directing people to Via Italia.
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 168
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 141.217.226.162
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What does "aside from Toronto" mean?
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 445
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.192.25.47
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 3:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor's downtown is decayed? LOL. Okay...

Windsor's weakness is they focused all their attention on being a nightlife destination, and they got what they wanted. Like you said, aside from the nightlife, there isn't much there.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4251
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 4:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike used an incorrect description. "Decayed" is not the right term. "Declined" seems like a term that could be used, but even that seems too strong a word. The downtown may need some diversification in their business makeup, but it's still very much intact and relatively vibrant. Being across from downtown Detroit did (and still does) handicap it to some extent in what it can become.
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Islandman
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Username: Islandman

Post Number: 319
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 4:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown Windsor has always been relatively calm during the day; at least in the 20 or so years I've gone over there. I rather like downtown Windsor and its lack of hubhub.
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Ramcharger
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Username: Ramcharger

Post Number: 44
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 68.42.78.175
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 8:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor suffers from the same malady that afflicts Detroit: The decline of the North American auto industry. Compounding this problem is the United States’ post 9/11 xenophobic boarder restrictions. For better or worse, Windsor’s economy is more analogous to Michigan’s then it is to the rest of Ontario’s. When the leaders of both countries wake up and start protecting their industries from unfair foreign competition the fortunes of both sides of the river will benefit.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 6443
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bring back MOTHER'S PIZZA!!
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 281
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 207.61.38.86
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor does not suffer because of Detroit. Downtown Windsor use to be something, even as late as the 70's. Then it all started to go downhill(Devonshire Mall), etc.

So Windsor and Detroit use to both offer amazing downtowns on each side. But I don't know Windsor concerned me on my visit there. It was really looking down and out alittle.
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Islandman
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Username: Islandman

Post Number: 320
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon,

Now we're talking pizza! That was the first destination when going over for many moons.
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Peachlaser
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Username: Peachlaser

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 66.245.112.177
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My only experience of Windsor is a quick trip over the Ambassador Bridge, a drive along the river front and a walk through the river front parks. I thought the parks with their landscaping and flowers were very attractive and had a lot of people walking, skating and biking. It looked like they were expanding these parks. Watching the sunset over Detroit and watching Detroit's lights come on was a nice experience. I also enjoyed watching the big freighters come by.

Our family warned us of the border hassles and that we may be delayed, searched, etc., so be prepared. We made sure we had our IDs, passports etc. and it felt like we were traveling to a foreign land rather than driving over to our neighbor Canada. But, we had no problems and it was really a quick trip for a great view of Detroit.

A couple from Windsor were laughing at us. I asked why and they said, "You come over here from the U.S. and then you take pictures of the U.S. while you are here! That is very funny." I thought the sunset over the city and river was very pretty and obvious why the attraction.

For Detroiters, the ride over to Windsor for the sunset seems like a great deal.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 770
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.41.164.236
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor seems like a lovely and safe city; my impression is that its downtown suffers from a loss of retail and an over-reliance on cheap bars for under-aged Americans.

What astounds me is that the Candians have abandoned their downtown retail scene for shopping malls. I thought the Candians were smarter than that.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 49
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.54.70.128
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This whole thread has my head spinning. Downtown Windsor is far from decayed--in fact, even declined doesn't fit the bill. Retail has declined, definitely, but that really is the extent of it. Some vacant office space has been converted to residential--and new white collar jobs have recently come downtown by way of DaimlerChrylser and (soon) St. Clair College. Come 2007 Windsor will have a 100,000 sq ft convention facility (which is big for a city of it's size) and will have a 5,000 concert theater/venue thanks to the casino. Windsor outstrips every other city in it's size in Ontario for hotel room space downtown, restaurants, bars, etc. Like every other city, the traditional downtown shopping scene has waned--but Windsor was lucky enough to have something to replace it with--even if that ultimately had to be "nightlife." Whoever believes that Windsor is "known" to have such a decayed downtown--I don't think you've visited any other 200,000ish city in Ontario lately--there are examples of cities larger and smaller that are far worse off--have you been to Brantford Mike?

Niagara Falls, NY--whoever mentioned that--does not stand as comparison. Firstly, it's secondary in the gaming scene to NF, Ontario--and secondly, it was horribly decayed beforehand--Windsor's Casino was a compliment to what was already a fairly healthy nightlife. I'm familiar enough with Casino Windsor to know that there are still PLENTY of patrons who choose to dine downtown or in Little Italy, as opposed to inside the complex.

Kudos to the person who pointed out that the border hassles are mostly mythical--drummed up by a few breathless chopper reports on WDIV after 9/11. For those of us whose work and entertainment take us back and forth across the border daily--we really need to get back to a place where our border and our shared geography is a "benefit" and not something we warn visitors to avoid. The more Michiganders in Windsor and the more Windsorites in Detroit, the better for all.
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Islandman
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Username: Islandman

Post Number: 321
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was at Xochi's earlier today and overheard a conversation at another table from some Canadians that were meeting some American friends there. From what they were saying, the customs person they got was a dick. Some of them are.

It is far easier (read: less hassle) going there than coming back here. Always has been that way, even pre 911. I have yet to be asked for a passport going over there, and I've crosssed hundreds of times.

To keep on topic, another thing to consider about Windsor is that they have also experienced a form of sprawl, with many people moving to what they call the "county". This is the "farmland" on the outskirts of Windsor. The has been a ton of developent out there in the last couple of decades. As has happened here, why go downtown when there is a local mall/shopping area to service you?
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Erikto
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Username: Erikto

Post Number: 425
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.228.108.157
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor seems to have a lot of sprawl for a small city. Downtown looks alright to me, I agree with posters who have mentioned excessive reliance on nightlife for American kids, but if it brings people downtown to replace those sucked out by the Devonshire Mall, then I think bars are better than nothing, or dollar stores and cheque-cashing joints. Chatham looks more run-down than Windsor, and Hamilton beats them all. I like Hamilton but a month ago when I visited I noticed some burned out buildings right downtown which were boarded up, suggesting the fire happened a while ago and there were no plans to re-hab the buildings. Too bad, but Hamilton has had its share of problems for decades. Where are Goat and Andrew?
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 283
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 65.92.145.94
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hamilton I feel is in better shape then Windsor. Downtown Hamilton has extensive retail left, including national chain stores and a new discount department store. Windsor has none of that.

By the state of downtown Windsor you would never know Windsor was the richest metro region in Canada. Windsor has the highest income levels of all metro regions.
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Erikto
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Username: Erikto

Post Number: 429
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.228.108.157
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't remember seeing any large toasted buildings in downtown Windsor, nor a series of pawnshops punctuated by boarded-up windows with "For Rent" signs, but perhaps we have different ideas about what looks worse in cities's cores.
On the other hand, Hamilton has one of the nicest housing projects I think I've ever seen, with the possible exception of Toronto's "Little Norway Park" buildings which I think are co-ops rather than Ontario Housing... see you around on the skyscraper page's forum Mike Toronto, I just registered there...
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Cklwbig8
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Username: Cklwbig8

Post Number: 79
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 64.228.196.65
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown Windsor has many buildings which have been untouched since the 70's. Even still vacant for a few years now. Also lots of old facades with ugly aliminum siding possibly still covering up some beautiful old architecture. Streetscape is horrible.. light posts untouched since early 80's. lots of vacant land to the west of downtown too. i've lived here for 31 years and downtown is a mess.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 717
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 75.10.1.205
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown windsor in the day is sad. But I would agree hamilton seem to be do much better with its downtown. Plus its odd to see a store selling pot right in from of the police station(hamilton), also its lovely that it usually supports the NDP(gotta love socialist leanings).
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Erikto
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Username: Erikto

Post Number: 430
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.228.108.157
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know there's a pot cafe in Hamilton, but I'd be very surprised if they're selling any... we've got a few places like that in T.O. as well, but they are strictly BYOSmoke.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 719
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 75.10.1.205
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was there Erikto they sold pot to my friend. The pot store was under a legal battle with hamilton about them selling pot. I think the gimik was each time you bought pot you paid memembership and got free pot. Because i belive it was almost or was legal to possess pot in canada or give it away.
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 87
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.40.171.54
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some of downtown Windsor's problem is the infrastructure of their roads, sidewalks and landscaping. They are dated in appearance, especially in comparison to the all the new work in downtown Detroit. I am talking specifically about streets like Ouelette, Wyandotte and University, not the riverside park areas.

It is a little bit like how Capitol Park looks like crap and Campus Martius looks beautiful. Downtown Windsor's appearance is somewhere in the middle. Updating the infrastructure can bring new vitality to an area.
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Hkytwn
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Username: Hkytwn

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with WINDSOR'S DOWNTOWN happened with many other downtowns in other cities. As with DETROIT many people begain shopping at malls where they can buy everything in one place. Windsors downtown was once a thriving shopping district but with changing generations stores closed and could not survive in the downtown district any longer the last few stores such as DAKS SHOES and McCanes Mens Wear moved out. By the late 80's Windsors downtown was empty, vacant store fronts and boarded up windows. Windsor had to adapt to these changing times and business owners and potential business owners begain opening up bars, clubs and places to eat. This brings us to the present current day Downtown Windsor ...it has changed an adapted to survive as have many other cities in the same generation changing evolution. We now have a downtown WINDSOR that is an entertainment district rather than a shopping district
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 35.11.212.197
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^related to Danny??
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 288
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 65.92.146.72
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtowns are more then just retail. Retail is an important one indeed, but downtowns should have entertainment, shopping, etc.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 549
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.229.231.102
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was in Downtown Windsor for lunch last week and noticed how (in comparison to the new Detroit look)dirty and unpleasant (again, in comparison)the streets seemed. Downtown Detroit is a shiny new penny - many thanks to Mr. Penske.

What a difference he has produced.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4905
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.174.229
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Motorcitymayor2026,

That's not me writing that. Try again!
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8740
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.98.91
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor's downtown problems stem from many sources. Building owners who could care less about the occupatants and even less about the physical structure itself.
Post 9/11 effects, and of course the ill timed and stupid communist style law of no smoking indoors by the liberal gov't of Ontario.
This is all exacerbated by a former council and mayor that couldn't or didn't know what direction they wanted to go with the downtown and how they were going to achieve it (I guess the other grandiose schemes Hurst and his cronies had were a much "better" idea).
Many of the retail businesses up and left after the Norwich block scandal started (this was the last 19th century full block building that was completely occupied with many different businesses that was demo'ed for the crappy Chrysler building that is still left more than half vacant). In their place many bars opened up to cater to the 19 year old american kids who came to party due to the low CDN dollar. The few remaining retail stores left after countless number of windows were smashed in on a regular basis but drunken idiots. And of course the owner of these buildings hiked up rents that retail just couldn't afford but the bars could because they are only open for a couple of years before they change names or ownership
Now the police have finally cracked down on the drunken fools parading through the streets (though it still happens from time to time), the CDN dollar has risen to .90cents and the smoking ban (the one good effect of it I guess)the bars themselves are now closing their doors. Sadly the buildings themselves are still look the same as they did 15-20 years ago due to owner neglect (make a fast buck and look for the next sucker to rent the property). Which brings me back to the city council that STILL hasn't decided what they want for a change in landscape and beautification of the downtown area. This was supposed to be started 2 years ago!
A council that is starting to cry about sprawl but 1)doesn't do anything to curb it. 2)continues to compete and build office space for workers when there is a glut of office space in the downtown area already! 3)loves the money it (sprawl) brings in in the form of building permits.
A mall that has all but sucked the life out of many business districts in the city and competing business districts.

Some of the things that have changed that may actually give the citizens of the city it's downtown back are the urban village design

http://www.citywindsor.ca/0019 84.asp

St. Clair College Campus moving downtown which would put another 500+ people in the area.
An expanded casino and convention space (though I am sure the smoking ban will put a bit of a damper on this).

The problem that I see is that is just takes too damn long to achieve anything in this city and by that time the councils ideas are usually outdated.
Why do the motor cities take so damn long to do anything?
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 579
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.133.127.224
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A very good analysis from Goat.

I have also been disappointed to witness an economic/physical decline in Windsor over the past two years. Decline has invaded not only downtown, it has taken hold in the major neighborhood retail streets as well, e.g., East and West Wyandotte Streets, Walkerville, Ottawa Street, and West University. No money is being spent on storefronts. Just a couple of weeks ago during a visit that included several of these neighborhoods, I noticed a surefire sign that many store and building owners are losing interest: a weed invasion on sidewalks, planters and curbs. If a storeowner doesn't care enough about his property to pull out massive weeds growing out of the sidewalk in front his establishment, he's clueless about success and respect for his customers. And customers are likely to stay away from such places. (Detroit's "Avenue of Fashion on Livernois is a prime example of this type of shabbiness pervading the area and suppressing the business that might otherwise occur there.)

Another manifestation of the decline to my complete horror: my favorite duck-pin bowling center was converted to a dollar store. (Are there any duck-pin bowling places in Windsor anymore?)

The decline isn't limited to Windsor's retail strips. Take a drive or walk through some of those working class neighborhoods within a mile or so of the CBD, which were close to pristine 10 years ago, and you will easily find many signs of decline: yards laden with unused toys, uncut and weed-filled lawns, untrimmed shrubs and un-edged lawns, and dead cars parked on the street.

This is a critical time in Windsor. For many many years its reputation in Ontario as a dirty, lousy place to live was completely undeserved. Sadly, that has begun to change.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8743
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.98.91
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Swingline,
No duck pin bowling that I know of, but the 5 pin lanes are still open on Wyandotte St. E (which is a great time!).

I find, and I am sure to catch slack by all of the liberal do-gooders, that the areas where new immigrants have opened stores (near Walkerville, sections of University Ave, Wyandotte St. W, Etc.)are usually the ones that are the worst for weeds and wear and tear. I don't buy that crap that they don't have the money because all it takes is a little effort to pull the weeds in front of your store. I do it on my street for meow's sake. Why can't these owners do it to the business?
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Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 4909
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.84.105
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Downtown Windsor looks like Downtown Detroit.
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Walkerpub
Member
Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 91
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 67.68.10.171
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bring back the promo sign atop the Tunnel ventilation building!

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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 147
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting, New Orleans had a large shopping complex Saks downtown only steps from French Quarter, and a riverwalk area with both indoor and outdoor shopping. It also has/had a large casino Downtown.

If any town was full of drunken hooligans, it is the French Quarter/New Orleans. New Orleans also has a pretty bad street crime problem that you don't see in Windsor or Detroit. Yet, it is/was able to keep much of its central city vibrant (with some rougher areas N on Canal.

What do you think Detroit/Windsor can learn from the pre-Katrina New Orleans? Do we need more parades? Maybe we can get our women do show cleavage for beads (hmm too cold here, and our women are too classy, that won't work).
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.53.99.6
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Opinions are opinions, and facts are facts. Too often, people with political agendas and strong beliefs bend and manipulate fact to support their view of the world. Though there are some excellent points made by people who feel Windsor has fallen to pieces, I take exception when the facts are wrong. Firstly, though a financial boondoggle--the DCX building is far from being "more than half vacant." At last count there was one full floor and a second partial floor that had not yet been sub-leased. A good portion of the street level retail is still vacant for certain, however, a chunk of it was recently taken up by a great looking Keg Steakhouse, which isn't a "kiddie bar"--but a stylish and upscale restaurant that anyone wanting to support downtown ought to try.

Secondly, any person who truly believes that any business closing is "one good effect" has no business claiming that they want what's best for Windsor. Our hospitality industry is a key employer and a vital part of our economy--and it's decline has hurt the city. While other cities were left with largely vacant downtowns, Windsor's adapted--and the resulting bars and restaurants have employed thousands over the years. If anything, previous councils and Victorian-era laws regarding liquor have crippled what could be a booming entertainment destination in downtown Windsor. City council, liquor licencing and the OMB have dropped the ball in that they have been too worried about noise complaints, etc, to see the potential goldmine at their doorstep.

As someone who borders on being a libertarian, I am incensed by the Ontario government's decision to blindly ban indoor smoking without regard for the impact that ban would have in a city like Windsor. I am both practically and ideologically opposed to this decision--and it's repurcussions will continue to be felt for years.

I was born and raised in Hamilton and have lived in Windsor for the past 13 years. Comparing the two (Hamilton's CMA is about 3X Windsor's) is ludicrous. Retail, etc. has been sustained in Hamilton for a number of reasons--namely a large downtown residential population and the fact that large employers and office towers pump a lot of white and pink collar employees through the stores and malls between 9 and 5. Windsor's booming nightlife is the envy of any city, including Hamilton--which has a largely desolate and vacant downtown after 5pm.

Windsor, and it's downtown have gone through endless cycles of decline and rebirth. Speaking for those of us who make our livings at the pleasure of those who gamble, drink and eat downtown--I extend only the warmest thank you to anyone and everyone who has supported us over the years. To those who haven't been, or haven't been in a while, please think about visiting us again soon.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8749
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.98.91
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW! Now that post is wonderful fastcarsfreedom. Sorry I don't share your enthusiasm about the night life downtown.
When was the last time you were there? I live only a few blocks away and I see & hear the cops on a regular basis. I hear and see the drunken idiots driving through the streets with stereos blaring squeling tires and for what?
I would much rather retail and professional businesses in the downtown that would still pay taxes, give ME and my FELLOW CITIZENS a place to shop (no big box stores and a 20 minute commute to Tecumseh to shop for the fine furniture or accessories)than bars that are limited in service and business hours, and give no chance for families to enjoy our downtown. Why can't there be a good mix? Instead the kiddie bars have become so out of hand no one in their right mind would open up any stores in the area. Peter K. Ryan is closing their store after 45 years, Biblioasis is gone this fall. I am waiting for McCance and the other high end fashion store (sorry can't remember the name) to follow suit in the next few years.
I also know that should I walk through that stink of a mess at about 12:00AM I have a great chance of being accosted by a drunken asshole.

You talk about a goldmine. Where? Vacant stores, other businesses with windows smashed in 2-3 times a week, increased police presence (therefore increased tax dollars at hand. Even though break-ins in the city are numerous enough already)bars that go bankrupt only to be left vacant until someone else tries to open a bar (which usually lasts only a couple of years before new owners come in and try the same thing).

I have no problem with some bars being downtown. But having bars exclusive to the downtown such as now does nothing for the city as the now vacant signs have sprung up everywhere.
Why can't there be bars AND businesses? What about all of the vacant office space? And if you think a Keg Restaurant is a key ingredient to the DCX building than you don't set the bar very high considering what was previously in the Norwich block.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 551
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.229.231.102
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did Windsor citizenry protest very much when all the "adult" businesses came in? How about when the escort services and massage parlors became ubiquitus? Windsor seems to be very, very accepting of alternative lifestyles and businesses and so can't complain that its City Centre looks and acts the way it does.
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Ramcharger
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Username: Ramcharger

Post Number: 48
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 68.42.78.175
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don’t know of any pot cafes in Windsor, but I’ve hung out at a few in Vancouver. I don’t know but it sounds like a business opportunity to me.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 481
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So does anyone have ideas as to improve Windsor's downtown?

On another forum I made the following Kingston, Ontario inspired suggestion:
turn Ouellette north of Wyandotte into a one way street going north. This would create some problems, i.e. Pelissier and Victoria would need to flip directions and Ferry would need to funnel traffic south to a south bound Pelissier in a fairly seemless manner. The idea being to get more traffic on Pelissier to revive what has become a ghost-town street.

Or, as inspired by Halifax: why not extend the waterfront by building a large boardwalk? Put a few lowrise retail stores down there, permanently dock a few large historical ships, and build a small marina. In doing so, get rid of the parking lots on the downtown area of the waterfront. The lowrise retail stores and restaurants will not block the view from Riverside Drive, but will help make the waterfront a true destination.

Let's brainstorm some solutions.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 6461
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.14.27.114
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I never saw any aggression or fighting in the Amsterdam coffee houses...quite the opposite, in fact.


They are magnets for fellow travelers...go figure...and then exacerbates their, um, mellowness.

Plus, they help spur the economy...through the food service industry.



Munchie-atcha!!
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 6462
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Posted From: 69.14.27.114
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Islandman,

Me, too. Then we'd head over to the Island View tavern...or any other joint that wouldn't look too closely at our doctored licenses.

One of my friends figured out that the zero from the phone book was the right size and font to make our 62s and 63s read 1960...only got caught ONE TIME.

That was on the way into my first Alexander Zonjic experience at the old Radio City Tavern on Oulette...I had JUST sold him an entire wardrobe at Anton's Menswear, obviously after his first recording contract...since he had oodles of cash to flash.

Bouncer held our IDs up to the light, and was about to 'escort' us to the door when Alex recognized me, got my three friends in as well...then sat us at the front table with his now ex-wife, and bought our drinks all night!!


That was the start of my lifelong LOVE of jazz, and Alex has always had a special place within that!!


As for Mother's Pizza...I left my virginity somewhere in her parking lot one night...fond memories of that place.

Cheers!



(on my way to HFD's Overshare, I'm sure)
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 6463
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Posted From: 69.14.27.114
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The ship that USED to dock in Windsor...what was it called?...is in a marine junkyard on the near east side of Detroit...near those new houses behind the Farmer Jack's on Jefferson.


That one-way street idea sounds very interesting, Up.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 92
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 67.68.13.154
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Goat Man:

I like your pun about McCance and the other high end fashion store following suit in the next few years! (sorry to hear about your foot- look forward to seeing you at the park soon)

I moved my business downtown three years ago (near west end on Chatham between Bruce and Janette)- the place is a wasteland for small business- nothing going on but the taxes. No incentive for small business- no creative class as outlined by Eddie, who walked around with Richard Florida's book under his arm in the early days of his election- denial by Council about downtown as anything other than the kiddy bar heaven that it is...yadda yadda

Just a field of broken dreams...

BTW- still waiting for the bus depot!

I say bring in a red light district on Pelissier between Wyandotte and University- could be good for business!
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 149
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon are you talking about the tugboat that was turned into a bar? The one that was almost sunk looking?
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Erikto
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Username: Erikto

Post Number: 432
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.228.108.33
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a 'red light district' zoned in relation to the population (with respect to size and location) would be a good thing for several Ontario cities. Unfortunately, it's a non-starter in Toronto, so I would assume no other municipalities would entertain the idea. The one-way streets idea is interesting, but once again I think of Hamilton where one way streets are designed to move people in and out of the city quickly, rather than keep people in town. Montreal has Ste. Catherine which is a busy one way street, but the westbound deMaisonneauve is just a fast drive-through-town street with no walk-by after office hours, except for a few blocks between Drummond and MacKay.
While pot is common here, it's still illegal. There was one summer when it was okay to have it between court appeals, but it's illegal again. It's just not a priority for law enforcement; too many city cops must know at least one pot smoker who has a job, a family, a house and would be a 100% law abiding citizen if weed was decriminalized. More people smoke pot than all the other illegal drugs combined. Conservatives say this proves it's a gateway drug, I believe the opposite; if it's a gateway, plenty of people are happily crammed in the doorway. Pot cafes get busted in Vancouver, and one that used to openly sell used to also get openly robbed by bikers even though they only kept a maximum of half a pound on site, they used to complain about this scourge in Cannibas Canada magazine (before it was re-named Cannibas Culture, dunno if they're still publishing...) I couldn't imagine Windsor putting up with a place that let people smoke grass openly, I think they'd be scared of what Americans might do to bring border traffic to a halt.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 51
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.71.56.117
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One Way Streets? Hamilton has had those since the 1950s and is in the process of switching them BACK to two-way in the belief that the slower traffic will bring a more "urban" feel to the street and reinvigorate street-front businesses.

To answer a question above, I work downtown--so although I live elsewhere--I'm downtown about 40 hours per week--and generally those are the prime "entertainment" hours--so I am there working while what were referred to as the "drunken idiots" are around. I'll say I'm downtown enough to know that McCance English Shop has been gone for a couple of years--and if you're thinking of Winograds--that's been gone even longer. Goat, it would be great if there remained a big, diverse community of retail, office, professional businesses and restaurants/bars downtown. The exodus of retail and other businesses to the suburbs is not a unique phenomenon by any stretch of the imagination--it's happened in cities large and small across North America. Retail tastes changed--and although you may wish for shopping alternatives--the majority of consumers abandoned regular downtown shopping years ago--and there are few, if any businesses willing to lose money over the long term in the hope of cracking what is ultiamtely a chicken and egg scenario.

The current casino redevelopment will serve to greatly diversify the demographic of people coming downtown in the evenings on an occassional basis. The new 5000 entertainment venue is going to bring diverse, "never seen before in Windsor" entertainment acts into the core--and some of those folks will choose to take the opportunity to discover what else Windsor has to offer. In spite of your impression of downtown as a haven for "drunken idiots" there are an array of high quality bars and restaurants in the core that cater to varying clientele. It's ironic that anyone should consider the addition of The Keg downtown as something to be scoffed at--For years I have heard complaints and read letters in The Star bemoaning the lack of this type of "family" establishment downtown.

Downtown Windsor is far from perfect. No downtown in this age in a city of this size is. Where other downtowns have simply died--Windsor's has adapted. Bars and restaurants have opened, DCX has brought it's employees downtown--and St. Clair College is following suit with both employees and students. It's is sad that short-sighted laws and inhospitable residents take the polish off what could be a very lucrative entertainment destination. I am actually very sympathetic in regard to disturbances to residents downtown related to the crowds in the bar district. In truth, antiquated liquor laws make this situation far worse than it needs to be. WPD does a great job policing period--and do a great job downtown. A good portion of what you view as "taxpayer" funded police presence downtown is actually paid for by the Casino--somewhere around the equivilent of two-dozen officers, give or take. Personally the noise and nightlife would probably disturb me too--hence the reason I've chosen to live somewhere more bucolic. I applaud anyone who choses to live amongst the vibrancy of a downtown core--but living there and wishing that it was a different place seems like an exercise in futility.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1196
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.251.28
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 7:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The rest of Windsor's downtown should simply follow the model of Erie Street East (Via Italia). Nowhere else in the Detroit/Windsor area can you find an attractive, walkable, ethnic neighborhood like that. Uniformly great restaurants, too.

Erie St. E. is a unique offering in the area, and only Windsor has it.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 6476
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Gannon are you talking about the tugboat that was turned into a bar? The one that was almost sunk looking?





Yeah, it is rusting away, but the junkyard supervisor actually uses it...for parties, at least...but it actually looked lived in.

It was pretty creepy looking around it...although I don't think I ever stepped foot on it when it was docked in Windsor.


Still cannot remember what the owner called it...but he changed the name when it became an obvious gay hangout...don't remember EITHER of the names.


Need caffeine...
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 52
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.71.57.83
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed Fury15, Erie Street/Via Italia is perfect execution when it comes to an "entertainment destination" There has been some pain since 9/11 cut into cross-border traffic, but most of the high quality restaurants/bars seem to be doing well. Someone mentioned a "defined" Chinatown or Asian Village--this might be a next logical step.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 482
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sure a "defined" Chinatown would be useful in terms of marketing the area to people from out of town. There is no question that Windsor has had a de facto Chinatown for years.

I think that a primary reason Windsor's downtown is lagging (other than being a haven for bars, etc.) is that Windsor does have several decent urban neighbourhoods including Old Sandwich, Walkerville, Ottawa Street, Erie Street, University/"Chinatown", etc.

The above areas are spread out across the Northern portion of the city rather than being condensed. This has a lot to do with how the city was created (amalgamation of smaller communities). The problem is that Windsor's relatively unattractive downtown is much more accessible to out of town guests than the above mentioned neighbourhoods.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8751
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Posted From: 70.53.98.91
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There used to be a pot "cafe" (though you couldn't smoke in it, just buy from it) called Harvest Moon. It was busted twice in one year and the owner finally got tired of fighting the law and trying to make a point.

Fastcarsfreedom. I'm not going to sit here and spin circles all day with regards to taxpayer money going to the WPD. Who pays for the squad cars? Not the casino. Who pays for the lock up? Not the casino. Who pays for for the destruction of public property? Not the casino.
I think you get my point.

There is no reason for the downtown area NOT to similar to what has transpired on Erie St. But slumlords, and those looking to make a fast buck (the many out of town bar owners) and the short-sightedness of and dare I say unwillingness of a council that is mired in consultants and "studies".

Walkerpub makes a great point with the transit terminal. Who in their right mind would want to live across the street from that?! Not to mention the design of the building looks more in tune with the art gallery 21/2 blocks away to the rear of the would be structure than a historic building right across the street! Also, there was supposed to be no buses to the west of the building but in the new rendering, they have terminals on that side as well.
Even on this project the city was given a timeline that shovels MUST be in the ground I believe by the end of September to qualify for the Ontario gov'ts grant to the building. This has yet to occur. Once again slow moving on council and the mayor who have also sidestepped an icepark (to replace Windsor Arena) built with private money at the Windsor Raceway.

The urban village is agreat idea but with the current administration especially people like Jim Yanchula (Manager of Urban Design and Community Development) who haven't got a clue what it takes to make this downtown vibrant and alive for all of the citizens of this city. Especially the ones who live downtown! Even his own wife has said that she cannot believe that anyone would live downtown. If Mr. Yanchula or his wife are unwilling to live downtown (the heart of any city) then he has failed in his job and should be replaced. All areas of the city should have the backing of the city to make any and all people want to live anywhere in its boundaries.

Windsor suffers from the same maladies of Detroit. It is easy to make grandiose announcements, but to make them a reality seems almost impossible. Unless of course they have a vested interest themselves.

Walkerpub. Foot getting better. I hope to see you soon at the park. If Walkerville Publishing is open on Tuesday Sept. 5th, I will stop by. Hope to see you there.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 290
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 65.92.73.106
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny the comment about Erie Street.
If you look at many North American cities, they have vibrant and amazing inner city areas that attract suburbanites, etc, yet the central downtown remains dead.

Pittsburgh is a great example. Pittsburgh has the South Side, Shadyside, etc. All these strips attract regional shoppers, diners, etc. Some chain stores also have their only regional store in these hoods. Yet downtown, can't seem to attract any diners, shoppers, etc.

Weird. Looks like Windsor is in the same spot.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 93
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 24.57.42.143
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This has been a very good discussion thus far so I would like to wade in.

Some of you may be aware that my company published The TIMES Magazine (formerly The Walkerville Times) for seven years between 1999-2006.

http://walkervilletimes.com/

http://thetimesmagazine.com/

I wrote the following editorial in June, 2004. I have left the piece in its original form exactly as it was published despite the current events with the Cleary and St. Clair College.

I hope this piece of my mind will stimulate further discussion on this important topic:

From The TIMES Magazine

| Issue #44 | June 2004

Windsor’s Western Super Anchor: Field of Bad Dreams

by Chris Edwards, publisher

Here are men that alter their neighbour’s landmarks...reap they the field that is none of theirs, strip they the vineyards wrongfully seized from its owner...a cry goes up in the streets, where wounded men lie groaning.
Book of Jobs

In the movie Field of Dreams, Iowa corn farmer Ray Kinsella is startled by voices in his cornfield telling him: “If you build it they will come.” The voices are so persistent he eventually understands someone wants him to plow under part of his corn crop and erect a baseball diamond on his farm.

Ray does as he is told and is rewarded by the sight of ghosts from the 1919 Chicago “Black Sox” scandal, including “Shoeless” Joe Jackson, emerging from his cornfield to play baseball on the diamond.

Naturally, the neighbours think Ray’s lost his mind, but in the end, thousands of people come to see his baseball diamond in the middle of a cornfield.

Perhaps Windsor consultants and city councillors were big fans of this 1989 feel good hit. After all, it was released the same year they dreamed up the so-called “Super Anchor” concept, touted as the key to Windsor’s downtown revitalization.

Over time, voices must have been whispering to them to “build it and they will come.” The “it” being a “twinanchor” concept, with a permanent casino to the city centre’s east, and a variety of schemes in the city’s west centre, including: an arena, children’s museum; hi-tech interactive game center; an aquarium; virtual garden; an auto museum; and retail space and hotels.

These grandiose schemes would certainly attract people back into the city’s core, leading to the great commercial revival in a district that had never fully recovered from the effects of the Devonshire Mall opening.

In fifteen years, a neighbourhood has been plowed down, but everyone’s still waiting for Shoeless Joe: no arena, no children’s museum, no hi-tech interactive game centre, no aquarium, no virtual garden, no auto museum, no retail space.

We do have a new art gallery, a magnificent structure with a commanding view of the Detroit River, an island adrift in a sea of empty lots.

“It is an unbelievable site,” said Doug Lawson to The Windsor Star in 1995, who chaired one of the many “revitalization” committees that have taken a stab at developing the district. “It is really a very prominent Windsor site and that’s why we call it the Western Super Anchor.”

Nearly a decade later, the heart of the “Western Super Anchor,” on Chatham Street West in downtown Windsor is a surreal scene: a veritable dead zone virtually devoid of people but boasting hundreds of parking spaces. And the few souls who do have some reason to park are easy prey for the parking “Nazis” who patrol the area with such zeal, one would think the city’s very life depended upon the revenue derived from ticketing.

If only our city was as efficient at planning as it is at handing out parking tickets! But I digress... Lawson was right - the western super anchor (rechristened City Centre West last year) is incredible: a great view, reasonably safe from crime, in the middle of city with only a mile-wide river separating it from a market of more than five million people.

That’s why I purchased a heritage building (one of the few that escaped the wrecking ball) in this district for my business last year. This neighbourhood has so much unrealized potential. My fear is that I’ll have to wait another fifteen years to realize witness its revival.

Wreckers recently razed the old Canadian Tire building just a couple of blocks down Chatham from my building. Watching their daily progress, I couldn’t help but think how absolutely expert the city has become at tearing down buildings. We’ve certainly had enough practice!

How did this downtown district, bounded on the east by Dougall Road, Riverside Drive to the north, Caron Avenue to the west and University Avenue to the south, become an urban wasteland?

Not that long ago, it was a vibrant area with people living and working here: there were businesses, restaurants and tastefully renovated heritage homes and duplexes. It even had a name, “Olde Town” coined by one of the residents, realtor Jack Renner, who had purchased and renovated several of the buildings himself.

Now only about six blocks of heritage buildings and apartment buildings remain in an area of about 5 acres; those of us who run businesses or live here feel like shipwrecked castaways.

Fifteen years of heightened expectations and broken dreams. How did it come to this?

In 1989, the city went on a buying spree in pursuit of the super anchor dream, assembling a sizable parcel of downtown land at a cost of about $10 million in property acquisitions.

Next, the wreckers got busy and flattened the neighbourhood. Property owners were only too eager to sell their buildings, often at inflated prices. In too many North American cities, downtowns have been witlessly murdered, in good part by deliberate policies of sorting out leisure uses from work uses, under the
misapprehension that this is orderly city planning.

One only has to cross the river to Detroit to view a downtown that has recently introduced numerous leisure anchors in the hopes of resurrecting a devastated business district (Comerica Park, Ford Field, three casinos). its commercial and residential activities pales when compared to downtown Chicago or New York.

Prior to this rebirth, Detroit had its own “field of dreams,” in the shape of the Renaissance Centre, a massive high-rise commercial development built on the riverfront in the 1970’s in order to rejuvenate the downtown core, devasted by the city riots of 1967 and “white flight” to the burbs.

But the RenCen’s designers had unwittingly built a shining “fortress,” which did little to resurrect the stricken commercial districts on its north, east and west sides. Now owned by General Motors and called the GM Centre, the towers are gaining a new lease on life, due in part to other developments occurring in the downtown. It won’t happen overnight, maybe not even in our lifetime.

When the heart of a city stagnates or disintegrates, a city as a social neighbourhood begins to suffer. People who ought to come together, by means of central activities, fail to do so. Without a strong and inclusive central heart, a city tends to become a collection of interests isolated from one another. It falters at producing something greater - socially, culturally and economically - than the sum of its separate parts.

Projects such as cultural or civic centres, besides being woefully unbalanced themselves as a rule, are tragic in their effects on cities. They isolate uses from parts of the cities that must have them. And so it goes with Windsor.

Dreams of arenas, convention centers, hotels and casinos continue to dance in the heads of city planners who cling to the belief these will increase human traffic in the core.

But listen carefully, you can still hear ghostly voices that supported two other follies visited upon taxpayers: • The Cleary Auditorium redesign boondoggle that began in 1988 (estimated at $14 million,
final tab about $30 million).

“I think the Cleary will lead us out of the doldrums,” said one planner at the time. “It’s going to be the vanguard of downtown renovation.”

The Cleary site has now been deemed largely inadequate for attracting conventions - the main rationale for its redesign in 1989. •

The razing of the Norwich Block (the heritage commercial block bounded by Ouellette Avenue, Riverside Drive, Pitt Street and Ferry Street) and the subsequent Canderel disaster.

Michael Labrier, president of Canderel Stoneridge, was quoted by to The Windsor Star in response to those who criticized the $36 per square foot price tag to rent commercial space in the building: “There’s an old saying, you get what you pay for... You can’t be a
small-minded little Luddite who goes back to the 1840’s and doesn’t want the Industrial Revolution because it’ll change your life.”

The building, according to latest estimates, will cost taxpayers at least $40 million, including the $85,000 a month the city has been paying for over two years to lease two floors (still empty); the site’s road level commercial space remains largely vacant. Instead of a beehive of commercial and retail activity as promised, the Canderel building is a just another field of dreams!

Added together, these two projects have cost taxpayers upwards of $70 million- no wonder our city’s infrastructure is in such bad shape.

Ironically, the main attraction for human traffic in the core is what the city has been fighting to eliminate: the “kiddie” bars - drinking establishments opened over the last several years to accommodate the hundreds of thousands of 19 and 20-year-old Americans who flock to Windsor throughout the year to drink – and consequently, bringing hundreds of thousands of dollars into the downtown core.

Now try to imagine what downtown would look like without the kiddie bars.

And so we await the sequel to our local version of Field of Dreams. Say, it could be any time now: in 2002, city planners decided to “take a step back to evaluate the future of the downtown area formerly referred to as the Western Super Anchor.”

According to final draft of The City Centre West Community Improvement Plan, released by the City of Windsor in June, 2003, planners envision “an urban village where people meet, live, work, shop and play.”

The report goes on to say: “(We) need to increase the local neighbourhood population, to add vitality to the streets, and a ‘built-in’ customer base for business.”

Does anyone else see the cruel irony here?

To quote Yogi Berra: “it’s déjŕ vu all over again!”

Sources:
City Centre West community Improvement Plan, Final
Draft, City of Windsor, Strategic Services - Offices of the City Planner, June 5, 2003

The Death and Life of Great American Cities, Jane Jacobs, 1961.
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Wfw
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Username: Wfw

Post Number: 165
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 24.114.255.83
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 7:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Granted, I've been living in Toronto for the past two years, but as a life-long citizen of Windsor, I'd like to weigh in with my two cents.

First off, I just don't see this decaying downtown that everyone is referring to. Downtown Windsor is doing just fine. It could be doing better, but this is an issue that Windsor has been trying to deal with for the past 25 years, it's not a simple problem, so there's no simple solution. Yes, there could be more retail, but the bars and restaurants are doing fine for the most part, and I have several friends who are able to make a decent living just from working in the restaurant industry (by the way, Yanks have a reputation as abysmal tippers...).

In any event, for a city its size, downtown Windsor has a lively and thriving downtown scene, particularly at night. Yes, there are rowdy drunken idiots, but they're nothing compared to the rowdy drunken idiots in Toronto's club district, and for the most part they're unarmed (unlike Toronto).

Someone mentioned Windsor's high crime rate - this may be true for categories such as break-ins and car theft, but in terms of violent crime Windsor barely has any. As I mentioned, I lived in Windsor all my life until recently, and I can assure you I never had any problems with crime at all, and I've been in all sorts of situations with folks from all walks of life. Like most cities, random crime is exceedingly rare, and trouble usually doesn't find you unless you go looking for it.

In essence, I think it's far too easy to take pot shots at Windsor. For the most part, I just don't see the devastation that others seem to. In fact, the longer I live in Toronto, the more I realize what a great place Windsor is and the more I miss it. Yes it has its problems (the biggest of which I would say are over-dependance on the auto industry, and severe pollution) but all in all it's a good place to live and raise a family, and has only a fraction of the problems that face Detroit on a daily basis.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 485
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent insight, Walker. It is amazing that the city will essentially replace a neighbourhood with a neighbourhood. If only the city didn't wipe out the westside of downtown years ago. Unfortunately it will take many years before the City Centre West development is built.

I must say that I would support building an arena on that parcel as part of the urban village. Any such arena would be one icepad and would have no surface parking. A downtown arena would provide much more business to downtown bars and restaurants than an arena at the racetrack.

Windsor could certainly use a department store like Kingston's S&R. That being said, the city needs to bring more life to Pelissier (wouldn't it be great to find a way herd the kiddie bars to that street and bring retail back to Ouellette). Regardless, something needes to be done about Pelissier to bring people and business to that street.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8758
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.59.87
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What would the arena bring to the downtown? Parents with kids in tow who go to an OHL game and get out of the game a 10:00PM will have no where to go but through the long lines of 19 year old drinkers who need another drink to get up the liquid courage to flirt with some girl in a skirt that barely covers her ass.
Other than that what would this arena bring? It sure wouldn't bring any retail. It sure wouldn't bring the people downtown to frequent any cafes. Most games are at night with the odd one in the afternoon in the middle of winter. Who in this car crazy city would walk 5 blocks in 0 celcius weather (32F for you americans)?

This urban village needs to be built NOW! Not with more consultants, not with more study but with investors who have already inquired to the city about said village. The more the city dithers the more these investors grow tired and move on to a more fruitful project.

It is high time the council and mayor (and the removal of Jim Yanchula) get this city moving. After all, if the city is seen as a dinosaur that can't even decide what they want to do with 10 blocks of prime realty who (investors and manufacturers alike)is giong to take them seriously.

No wonder the city is in the doldrums with so-called leadership like that!

Walkerpub. Fantastic article that is right on the money. Sadly it is as relevant now as it was then.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 491
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goat, I think we all realize that the kiddie bar scene is going to take a noticeable hit after the US imposes its passport requirements on its own citizens in January 2008. Fewer 19 and 20 year old Michiganders will cut into the number of bar catering to that crowd.

As far as the arena is concerned, London, Ontario's downtown arena has contributed significantly to getting people downtown for drinks/meals before and after the games and concerts. If you put the new arena at the racetrack the only business that will benefit is the racetrack.

If Windsor wants to get serious about drawing people downtown for purposes other than the bars, the city should not place a major event centre out in LaSalle (where the track almost is). Rather, a new arena and the urban village can coexist bringing more events and residents to downtown.

And, I have never managed to get parking close to the current Windsor Arena. Most people today have to walk their kids down to the games/events in what passes for the cold in Windsor (I must admit my bias as a walk 20 minutes to work even in Ottawa's winter).
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 500
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 70.27.216.251
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A welcome start....

Riverfront bistro up for approval:
Upscale but casual eatery recommended for Dieppe Gardens instead of snack counter or kiddie bar

Don Lajoie, Windsor Star
Published: Saturday, September 02, 2006

An "apres theatre" pastry and cappuccino bistro on the water and not a junk food concession or kiddie bar is the vision city council will be asked to endorse for its Riverfront Peace Beacon Tuesday.

The owner of Naples Pizza, the business being recommended by the city administration to run the operation, has promised an "upscale" but casual establishment catering to all riverfront users, from roller bladers looking for a pizza slice to theatre patrons seeking afterglow refreshment.

"We want to make it a destination," said Tony Bahceli, who also manages Canadian Bread Bakers. "We will serve people who come for an ice-cream cone or french fries as well as someone who wants a glass of wine, an upscale sandwich or a coffee and pastry after the movies."

The one-storey cafe, designed to be below the grade of Riverside Drive in the Dieppe Gardens embankment to keep views of Detroit's skyline unobstructed, will include a separate, walk-up concession window for snacks as well as indoor seating and patio area where a more diverse menu will be on offer. There will also be washroom facilities.

Don Sadler, the city's director of parks, said the $1.5-million structure is expected to cover 3,200 square feet, with the restaurant portion alone comprising 2,000 square feet. He said site preparation should begin before the winter frost sets in, allowing for a spring opening.

"We're quite excited that this is now about to proceed," said Sadler. "It has been a long sought after project and our riverfront is quite beautiful."

He said the plan is for the Peace Beacon to be a year-round attraction. Based on the proposal, Naples Pizza has offered to pay $21,000 rent annually as compensation to the city and invest $250,000 in kitchen equipment. A commission on gross revenue will be negotiated between the city and the operators.

Coun. Joyce Zuk said she was relieved that the restaurant would be a bistro-type operation, noting that she had been inundated with calls from taxpayers concerned that a litter-generating junk food stand or, worse, another "kiddie bar," would end up on the waterfront.

"You need a fine balance to meet the needs of (downtown residents) and the changing community," she said. "We're committed to get people to live and to come downtown and this is a positive way to achieve it. It should appease residents who feared a big bar. It's clear that's not what will be there."

© The Windsor Star 2006
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 305
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 207.61.38.86
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor needs to ban out of downtown retail development, and build a theatre stage near the waterfront to attract people down for concerts, etc.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 501
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 70.27.216.251
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike, what do you mean by "ban out of"?
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 306
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 207.61.38.86
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I mean suburban shopping centres should be banned in Windsor, like the UK does.

The UK has a ban where new stores and retail must be located in downtowns or on major pedestrian retail streets, etc. A company has to go through a process to prove that they need a suburban location before it is approved. And that is only for some stores like IKEA.

Actually this is not new. Ottawa, Ontario had a suburban mall ban in the 70's-80's. Thats why Rideau Centre Mall was built downtown. Because retail centres were only allowed downtown.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5826
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.57.57.12
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anti-sprawl measure would be great.

I'm with Ottawa, I would wholy support the arena being built downtown.

You don't even need to go as far as London to see the impact of a downtown arena. Look at Comerica Park and Ford Field.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 54
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.53.97.154
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No question the arena should be downtown. I understand that with the Casino's entertainment theater/venue there will be a major 5000 seat venue open downtown--but that's limited to certain forms of entertainment. Having the Spitfires fans (or AHL or whatever) in the core makes perfect sense. I am among the people for whom a downtown rink would be LESS convenient--but it's by far the best choice.

Retailing bans are ridiculous. They would be excellent for Tecumseh, LaSalle, etc which would reap the benefits. If I am correct Ottawa's ban basically resulted in developments such as Bayshore and Place d'Orleans occuring in suburbs such as Nepean and Orleans respectively, I could be wrong...I digress. Anyway, any ban would force development into the suburbs and make the city even less appealing to developers. As for the bans in the U.K, the big retail chain over there, TESCO, has been picking off many of those small cities in spite of bans and ordanances. Has anyone on here even mentioned (or noticed) that the "trendy" retail chain AmericanApparel has opened up DOWNTOWN on Pellisier?
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Blitz
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Username: Blitz

Post Number: 189
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 72.139.243.118
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike, are you serious about banning out-of-downtown retail? This is an issue that affects every city in North America, it's not a Windsor-only problem. Look at London and Kitchener, they're both sprawlzillas...Windsor is tame in comparison to those two.

I agree that downtown Windsor is starting to look tired and I think the streetscaping projects planned for Ouellette and Pelissier next year will help the image immensely. The waterfront improvements are continuing as well. Downtown would benefit from more office buildings and white collar workers as well as more retail but I don't think it's time to sound any alarm. Many cities are still envious of downtown's restaurant and nightclub scene.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 502
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 70.27.216.251
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Banning out of downtown retail would also hurt Walkerville, Ottawa Street, Erie Street, etc.

Blitz, I do not think that downtown needs more office buildings, rather the office buildings downtown need less vacancy. The private sector has provided enough office space downtown (for now), businesses just need to fill the space that is currently empty. (Welcome back, btw, Blitz).

I do think that the apex of Windsor as downtown bar district has now passed. Just as those of us who enjoyed those kiddie bars 10 years ago are growing up, so much downtown. Certainly downtown will continue to thrive as a bar district, but a greater retail presence is necessary. I know that Royal Oak gets slammed a lot on this forum, but downtown Windsor could stand to get a little more "Royal Oaked".

Also, I think a new downtown arena will help cement downtown Windsor's place as an important entertainment district in the greater Detroit metropolis. Like Aiw has said: just look at Detroit.

One last thing, Windsor does have an amazing waterfront, but the city needs to use that waterfront to draw people across Riverside Drive to shop, eat, look at art, etc. A downtown department store would be amazing (like Kingston's S&R, perhaps?)
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8759
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.54.70.83
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reason that the arena works for London is that London is in a unique geographical area.
There is no other place close enough for concerts or venues. Toronto is 2 hours away and Detroit is 2 hours away. It is essentially too far for people to travel to. This and only this reason is why that arena succeeds.

Windsor on the other hand is next door to one of the largest areas of entertainment in N. America. Detroit, with umpteen different venues, arenas, stadium...alone does not give Windsor a chance. Add the surrounding areas of Ann Arbor, Flint and even Ohio and it becomes worse. Plus, the payment in American $$$ pushes concerts to the USA instead of coming here.
When Windsor does land a decent concert, usually it is not well attended but for a few (why we sell out Jann Arden is beyond me?).

Other than concerts what is an arena going to do other than have Spitfire games? The Casino is adding their convention space, so the arena is not needed for that aspect.

For most of the year (other than game days) it will sit empty along with the sea of parking we already have.

We have to remember that stadiums and arenas in large communities such as detroit work because they can draw the fan base. Windsor does not the the population nor the fan base to turn arenas into large venues for other attractions.
It would be another white elephant, much like the Cleary and the former Holiday Inn.

Build the arena where it will be utilized and leave the downtown to shopping and restaurants. Unless of course YOU want an arena in YOUR backyard sitting vacant for most of the year.
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Ramcharger
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Username: Ramcharger

Post Number: 56
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 68.42.78.175
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It’s too bad Windsor couldn’t get its own NHL franchise. If you couldn’t fill up a new arena with Canadians there are so many Americans that can’t get in to see the Red Wings that you could sell the place out every game. And just imagine the Detroit/Windsor rivalry, it would be awesome!
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 309
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.48.14.72
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny how people say Windsor can't draw things in. Yet before the suburban craze, downtown Windsor was able to attract people for many things besides shopping, such as theatre, etc.

Why now with more then double the pop can Windsor not attract people for entertainment such as concerts, theatre shows, etc?

You will often find with half the population 50 years ago, cities like Windsor had more vibe and life.

And that needs to be reversed.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 503
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A single pad facility with an attraction restaurant (such as a Dave & Buster's) accessible from the street would generate year round traffic and have the capacity to draw events such as curling championships, figure skating championships, the Memorial Cup, the World Junior Hockey Championship (with a Detroit-Windsor bid), etc.

Of course, an arena at the racetrack could draw such events as well. However, an arena at the track will only benefit the track. Why should the city of Windsor spend tax dollars for a new arena that will provide little spin off for local businesses, when the city could use the money to draw people downtown (and these people will patronize downtown businesses - something the city wants)?

A downtown arena should not be viewed as a saviour for downtown, rather it is one piece of the puzzle to improve downtown. The city already has the land, has set money aside for a new rink, and wants to bring people downtown, so the arena would be a good fit. Remember, the original proposal for an urban village (which is desperately needed) included an arena.

More people plus more things to do will equal more retail downtown.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.53.98.48
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Holiday Inn was a white elephant? Since when? That hotel did a fantastic business for most of it's history--it pre-dated the Hilton, etc, had unbeatable views for it's moderate price and provided hotel room inventory in Windsor when there wasn't a lot of other alternatives. People didn't like the Holiday Inn for various reasons (location, building materials) but it was never a white elephant. This city's obsession (I'm not originally from here) with having NOTHING north of the Drive except for grass is what did that hotel in. Even this so-called "Bistro" being planned for the Peace Beacon is being railed against in some quarters--and it will be invisible from Riverside Drive. The Riverfront parks system is fantastic--second to none, but the degree to which it has always been a blind obsession has fascinated me since I moved here. I can understand not burying your waterfront in concrete--but a little life here-and-there never hurt anyone either.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 504
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor's waterfront truly is the city's gem, but that does not mean that the waterfront cannot be tweaked or improved. The Civic Terrace really should sit at the foot of Ouellette Avenue, and there should be a few stores and cafes to draw additional activity to the downtown waterfront. A little imagination could substantially improve the waterfront as a tourist attraction capable of luring people up the hill and over Riverside Drive.

I still see Pelissier as a street that requires more that streetscapping to revive it. Could Pitt and Chatham reverse directions and Pelissier and Victoria reverse directions without creating havoc? If so, making Ouellette one-way going North would help funnel more traffic (and hopefully foot traffic as well) over to Pelissier.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 94
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 24.57.42.143
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I do think that the apex of Windsor as downtown bar district has now passed. Just as those of us who enjoyed those kiddie bars 10 years ago are growing up, so much downtown"


OOPS: 30,000 kids on the street this past weekend downtown - they had to close Ouellette Avenue (this has become standard)

hardly what I'd call the end of an era...
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 505
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 70.27.216.251
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 7:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walker, I did say "apex". The higher Canadian dollar, the post-9/11 border, and the planned WHTI passport requirements have put some drag on the bar scene compared to what things were like in the late 1990s.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8760
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fastcarsfreedom, The Holiday Inn that was built wasn't even close to the original design (it would have looked similar to Toronto's City Hall) as was promised when the land was given to the developer.
For the first 10 years it was a decent place but it went down hill thereafter. Just when the city wanted the land back it "suddenly" caught fire and was torn down.

I like the idea of small cafes along the river. As long as the city holds the title there should be no issues.

As for the arena. I'm with Halberstadt on his idea. Get rid of the Glengarry slums, err....housing projects and build the arena there. That way it is not right downtown but still close enough for any spin-off that might come from it. Also, it will gentrify the area and get rid of a few blocks that are known for its crime rate and blight.
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Blitz
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Username: Blitz

Post Number: 190
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 72.139.243.118
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ I like that idea too. Glengarry has to go but not before the city starts building more affordable housing units.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8766
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed. But those housing units need to be spread throught the city, not just in one area or a few as it is now. That way it gives underprivileged kids a chance at some of the better schools in the area.
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Walkerpub
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Username: Walkerpub

Post Number: 95
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 64.228.132.234
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



All hail the Holiday Inn aka "The Plywood Palace"

from "Postcards from the Past Volume 1- Windsor and the Border Cities"

http://walkerville.com/postcards/index.html
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 507
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank God for that fire....
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 510
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess what has been lost in this discussion of "reviving" downtown Windsor is the fact that Windsor's downtown is not exactly dead. The reviving that Miketoronto has suggested appears to be a "daytime-hours-retail-shopping -revival" rather than a fill-all-those-empty-storefron ts type of revival. As noted, Windsor's downtown is probably one of the more lively downtown's for a North American city of its size due to its number of bars.

What downtown needs is more balance. This balance will only occur through diversifying the core. What would forumers like to see downtown in order to diversify the area?
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8767
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More retail period. Clothing stores, shoe stores, home decor, (the new market is a great idea), hardware store, book stores (the best one is now closing)...Anything but bars and rub n tugs.
Bring back Fast Eddy's arcade for the kids.
Just to show you how bad it has become, Peter K Ryan has been in the area for 44 years and is finally closing. They said that most of their clientele were Americans. It goes to show you that unless it's Big Box in this city, it won't work. Of course those with money are running to the 'burbs as fast as they can due to lower property taxes but that will end in the near future as their infrastructure crumbles.

BTW: Postcards From the Past is a fantastic book for a minimum price. It shows what Windsor used to have for architect until Kishkon (sp?), Millson and Hurst got a hold of it all.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 511
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent Goat.

A downtown arcade is needed and would provide something for those under 19 to do downtown (other than obtain fake id).

As far as bookstores are concerned, downtown Kingston manages to support an Indigo (and the city has a "suburban" Chapters location). Although the large chain bookstores take away business from smaller new-bookstores, they tend to spawn used bookstores.

Ottawa's By-ward market is a good example of an area roughly the size of downtown Windsor that has a hardware store, a market (duh?), a Chapters, numerous new and used bookstores, a Loeb, a Home Hardware, clothing stores (most are in the mall, however), shoe stores, furniture stores (several high end and several more affordable), plenty of bars and restaurants, the odd office building, and a reasonable amount of residential space. That being said, "downtown" Ottawa, i.e. the centertown area is dead after 5pm and on weekends (this includes the famed Sparks Street pedestrian mall).

Really, the solution to some of downtown Windsor's diversity issues does not involve huge spending on new buildings, etc. The solution lies in encouraging and supporting smaller businesses in the core. However, such support needs to come from the city, Windsorites, and also from people willing to take a chance and invest in downtown.
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Erikto
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Username: Erikto

Post Number: 444
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.228.108.171
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Goat, when's Biblioasis shutting down? I found it to be a decent store.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8769
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 9:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last I heard it was closing sometime in November. The owner said he wasn't sure if he was going to open up further east or if he will be available only on-line.

It is too bad as I thought they had a good selection of used and rare books. The other store was Southshore books which was in the Norwich block. But that came down with the building for the crappy DCX building we have now.

But hey! At least we have a Keg restaurant. (sarcasm)

UpinOttawa, you are correct. If the city and landowners concentrated on getting a variety of retail then it could attract more businesses. But I guess when you need to get elected, grandiose schemes at the taxpayers expense sound much more appetizing.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5836
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.216.150.127
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I first moved to Windsor in 1989, the downtown was leaps and bounds better than today.

I remeber there was a Coles, several smaller independant new and used book stores, and lots of other retail. I for one can't wait for the WHTI to come into play, the need for passports will hopefully wipe out a lot of the kiddie bars.

In a heartbeat I wold support a new downtown arena, but I would not want one dime of my tax dollars to support an arena built at the racetrack.

If the raceway wants to build an arena, by all means go ahead... We all know old man Toldo could build one tomorrow and not even put a dent his fortune.

If the Glengarry Projects were plowed under for a new arena, where would the residents go?

WHO CARES! GENTRIFICATION-ATCHA! BITCHES. Let them go live in Tecumseh and Lasalle.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 81
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 66.195.132.2
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor is not a really old city or anything, screw the city, it's Canada's problem. Reviving downtown Pontiac or Flint would be much more interesting and worth while than Windsor.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 514
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder how much time and money a city like Windsor would spend lobbying companies like Indigo, Home Hardware, EQ3, etc. to bring their operations downtown? Does this even happen -- except maybe to fill city owned space?

With WHTI looming on the horizon Windsor needs to rebrand itself as more than just a playground (with escorts, sports gambling, naked dancers, lower drinking age, etc.) for Metro Detroiters. Windsor's downtown must become a place with a variety of interesting things to do, see, and experience if Windsor is going to continue to attract people from Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, etc. and even people fromm Ontario.

The city should provide incentives and make a concerted effort to bring more (non-bar) businesses downtown. This should involve lobbying companies on both sides of the border.

Windsor is not Halifax or Kingston, but the city can learn from both of those towns on how to maintain vibrant downtowns that continue to attract investment and tourists. I mean, there are 5 million Americans on her doorstep....
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.53.98.48
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man does my head heart. First off Milwaukee--reviving Flint, Pontiac AND Windsor are all worthwhile ideas. What isn't worthwhile is your out-dated provincial thinking. This thread and this forum are not exclusively about one city or nation--hence it's bi-national.

Aiw--your comments are no more constructive. What good ideas you have you bury in your hatred of tourism and the suburbs. You too are a provincial thinker. Tecumseh and La Salle aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Secondly, your celebratory attitude toward WHTI has got to be the most self-centered, navel-gazing attitude expressed in this thread so-far. You are celebrating the devestation of businesses and jobs. Put quite frankly, there are other cities, far away from borders or tourists that you could live in if you desired a different experience or ambience in your downtown core. If some of these "kiddie bars" disappear--please enlighten me as to what will take their place? Quite frankly, you'll be left with downtown Brantford Aiw--and if you haven't been there to see what it looks like--you might want to Google for some photos. It's not the type of atmosphere I would choose to spend time in--but again, if you had your way, I wouldn't have a job downtown either, so I guess that's a moot point.

Someone else wrote "thank god for that fire" in regard to the Holiday Inn/Ramada fire. The only thing to be thankful for was that no one was hurt. I'm also thankful my tax dollars didn't go to fight that fire. There was nothing wrong with the Holiday Inn, with the exception of the fact that for the last five or ten years (it spent most of those years as a Ramada) there wasn't a dime spent to upgrade anything in the place because Commonwealth Hospitality--or whoever owned it at the end--knew the writing was on the wall and that the hotel stood in the way of the "dream" of an uncluttered ribbon of grass along the riverfront. The hotel was well-patronized up to the end of it's life. The views were great, the prices were reasonable and it never suffered the influx of bar patrons that some other downtown hotels did. Personally I have a lot of great memories of the place, as I'm sure many others do as well. Creaky floors or not it was a part of the city's past. The view from the lobby of the cinema was unbeatable also, if anyone recalls it. Thanks for the old photo walkerpub, it looks great.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 515
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fastcars, I admit my comments re: the fire were insensitive, but were (in my opinion) obviously not serious.

I do recall that Brantford is a special case as most of the downtown buildings are owned by one individual who wants to have the buildings demolished by neglect in order to increase property values.

Milwaukee, why did you even bother....
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.53.98.48
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Upinottawa, I wasn't intending just on jumping on you, so thanks for the clarification. Your "thank god for that fire" comment stuck a nerve because it was oft-repeated locally. I had a fondness for the place, and stayed there a few times, as did many of my out-of-town guests. I associate the place with my first years in Windsor, and I do love the city, so I'm nostalgic a bit about the place. Anyone else remember visiting the place--maybe Maxwell's restaurant or the bar, called The Fore N Aft Lounge? The fire really seemed to originate from the "core" of the building where the east, west and south wings met--the location of the lobby, below the structure that contained the Odeon Theater.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5837
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.216.150.127
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fastcars, my comments about displacing the poor were tongue-in-cheek in regards to Gentrifcation threads that have been posted on this forum over the years....

That being said, I do hope the bottom falls out of the kiddie bar industry. I am a traveling salesman in real life, and becasue of that I have been to many downtowns across Ontario. It really sucks to go to a place like Listowel or Paris and see they have a better downtown retail base than Windsor.

I'm not sure where in the city you live, but I have put my money where my mouth is. I bought a house in the downtown core area, and I have been in it for 5 years. I don't enjoy the direction the downtown has taken over the last several years. I do love this city, but I think that too much emphasis is placed on downtown as a "destination" for tourists, and not nearly enough consideration is given to residents.

As someone who lives it everyday, it gets rather draining... Ask Walkerpub, who moved downtown, only to get out after a few years. No one can blame him.

Ouellette Ave. is a perfect destintion if you want to buy some "Bling-Bling", get drunk and pay for a hand job. Outside of that?...
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 516
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiw: one could argue that Essex, Kingsville, and Leamington all have better downtown retail bases than Windsor.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 82
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 69.95.239.153
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I meant by my comments is that Pontiac and Flint have better architecture and in my opinion are more intersting cities to renovate. If you're looking at what's best for Detroit, then you're right to renovate downtown Windsor. I just thought it would be more important to save some of Michigan's dying towns. Remember that Windsor is located at the tail end of the fastest growing region in Canada. The city will do well in the long term because of its location at the largest border crossing between America and Canada. What do Flint and Pontiac have going for them strategically? Windsor is much more likely to succeed and deserves less attention than say Flint and Pontiac.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 517
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Milwaukee, this thread is about discussing downtown Windsor.

Please feel free to start a thread about reviving downtown Flint or Pontiac.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8772
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Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen AIW, Amen!

If the city would stop pandering to tourists only and instead look at it's own citizens, then maybe the downtown wouldn't be in the shape it is in. All the streetscaping (which is 3 years behind...go figure!) in the world isn't going to make it a better place. A good mix of businesses that can cater to tourists AND residents will be the only way to go.

Milwaukee, Windsor is one of the fastest growing regions because it is the fourth largest destination for immigrants. But economically speaking it has the second highest unemployment rate in the nation. Personally, I believe that new immigrants should have to show that they are capable of getting jobs that are in high demand that cannot be filled. Where ever those jobs are, that is where they should have to go for a minimum of 5 years. Job shortage solved and increase pressure on local economies is lessened.

Fastcarsfreedom, Sorry but the Holiday Inn/Ramada became a huge destination for bar drinkers as I had been to many parties there in my younger years. As for not putting any money into that box, I believe there were structural issues for the building that would have cost millions to fix.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.53.98.48
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Milwaukee--your points are well-taken. I suspect it was the tone of your inital post that turned some people off. Windsor once had a downtown that was architecturally similar to what you'd see today in Pontiac or Flint--alas much of it was lost to redevelopment and the demolition of all buildings north of Riverside Drive to make way for the riverfront parklands.

In response to Aiw--I have lived all over the area since moving here in 1993. I was a student at the U and as such spent a few years in the west end. I spent time on the far east side in a high rise, and am now in the dreaded suburbs. I grew up in the country--in a small town northwest of Hamilton--I've never considered myself an urban-liver. That being said I grew up with frequent shopping and entertainment visits to downtown Hamilton. I'm a big supporter of downtown success. What differs between us is our definition of what success means in 2006. Clearly the city has decided it's best chances for success are pinned to downtown being an entertainment and tourist destination first and foremost. The casino, bars, restaurants, etc are proof positive of that. Like yourself, I'm sure that the downside of that success would have an effect on residential life. It is the main reason I choose to live where I choose to live. I'm sure living in downtown Paris would be nice--but this isn't Paris. There is a difference between wanting to live in downtown Windsor--accepting it for what it is--and living there wishing it was somewhere else, a different city with different geography and different demographics. People demoan the loss of retail downtown--but this is far from being a Windsor-specific problem. The big retail dollars LEFT downtown by and large before retail left downtown. It's one thing to wish there were more services and stores downtown that were residentially-geared, but in truth what was there was not supported--which is why it left in the first place.

On the positive side, more residential growth downtown will eventually lead to greater demand for local retail. Just as retail followed population growth to the suburbs, it will follow population growth back downtown. New residential developments in Hamilton have proven this as the downtown has begun to see new retail for the first time in at least a decade. Of course the key here is that the people moving downtown have to be people that have money to spend.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8773
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Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...is that why there is a moratorium on bars? Sorry Fastcarsfreedom, but even the city is trying to cater somewhat to it's residents.

The problem is, can the city bring people downtown to live? With their snails pace approach to everything and anything in this city I am sure I will be 75 years old before they even put a shovel into the ground for either the arena or the urban village. I guess fence sitting and grandiose announcements do get a person elected time and again.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5838
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.57.57.12
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now Hamilton.... If I was to move out of the area, that would be the one city in Ontario I would go to...

I have an Uncle in Stoney Creek. Even thats a little too rural for me. I need to live in an urban environment, suburb living isn't for me.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 69.95.236.19
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There looks like alot of land available for development on east Riverside Drive in Windsor. The area just south of Belle Isle Park. If they cleared the land, developers could advertise that area with views of the Detroit skyline. Proximity to shopping areas and park land with great water views to the north and somewhat to the east if the buildings were built. Also there are a number of surface lots downtown close to the river on Chatham and Bruce streets. These are good area's for high-rise condominiums with shops on the lower floors
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 70.53.98.48
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiw, Stoney Creek is purely suburban. As are Ancaster, Waterdown, etc--the one exception might be the land-locked valley suburb of Dundas which has a fantastic downtown core--a flash-frozen turn of the century streetscape that has managed to combine modern galleries and cycle shops with local service establishments like produce shops, butchers and upscale apparel stores. Downtown Hamilton has benefited from a large and growing residential population and a decent daytime population of white-collar jobs. Still, the core has been in a long, slow decline for the past 20 years or so--a decline that appears to have only recently abated. Fortuneatly, much of the streetscape has survived--and downtown is physically large--something else that provides lots of opportunity, and means a core that is large enough to have it's own "neighborhoods". Hess Village--west of the business district is the bar/club hotspot--and yes, residents of the gentrified, upscale Victorian neighborhoods around it complain of noise and drunkeness. In fact, that area has become such a hotspot that there is constant pressure to expand it's boundaries--something there is great opposition to. I keep abreast on developments in Windsor and Hamilton--and I assure you many of the concerns voiced here are voiced in the downtown Hamilton forums I participate in. Don't forget--these are different beasts--Hamilton is in an area of extremely hot population growth--and even before that is accounted for--it's CMA population is about 3X that of Windsor's.
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Blitz
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Username: Blitz

Post Number: 191
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 72.139.243.118
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Chatham/Bruce area is the zone slated for the urban village.

As for Riverside Drive East, it's already lined with highrises on the south side of the road (across from where there is parkland on the north side). But east of Buckingham Drive, there are large homes right along the shoreline for several miles.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 165
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

umm Milwaukee, that East Riverside Drive area is already covered with hi rise condos. It is also not near downtown Windsor. You can't get much more dense there as the roads are congested as it is. Any more folks over there will clog the roads more, that means slower buses and slower travel for goods.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 69.95.238.74
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Umm Detroitplanner, I know that the east side of Roverside drive has highrise apartments already, but look at the underused area between Devonshire Road, Wynadotte Rd, Riverside Drive, and Belleview Avenue. This is sunbaked old industry area and oil tanks. This shoulnd't be on the river. There's plenty of land not near water, but there is only a liver river line area. This area would make good for townhomes or condominium towers. If the city want's to revive itself it would have to invest in it's infastructure (example: widen roads, make alternative routes, improve bus system, light rail along the river). Lastly, I know this isn't part of downtown Windsor, but strong neighborhoods make a good city. Attract tax dollars into the city limits and that means more money in the city's pocket which means more money for downtown development projects.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8775
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it is the area I think you are talking about, that area is owned by Ford of Canada. It was where Ford had their assembly line back in the '40s to the '60s. The areas off of Wyandotte near the train station and not too many people want to live near that.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5842
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.57.57.12
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goat... Ford had their assembly plant there from 1904 to the late 60's. Also the Ford Powerhouse is there and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 95
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 69.95.235.157
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Then keep the powerhouse and build around it. Say the powerhouse is charming and just highlight the river and views of the city. Aiw you can't say that its a bad idea.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8776
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.97.7
Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the clarification AIW. I wasn't sure when they moved to that parcel of land from the Walkerville Wagon Works (or if it was the same parcel of land or not).
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5843
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.57.57.12
Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Same parcel Goat.

Milwaukee, most of the land around there belongs to Ford, and they're not giving it up any time soon. Plus I'm sure it's contaminated as fuck.



Here's a samll map of the area.

Blue is Hiram Walker Land
Gray is Ford Property
Red is privatley held homes
Green is park.

As you can see there is no open or available land on the water in that area.

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