  Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4204 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Do any of you architecture buffs, out there, know who the renovation architect(s) and general contractor were for the Fox Theater and Office Building? | ||
Hardhat Member Username: Hardhat Post Number: 164 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.237.11.127 |
Grunwell-Cashero was out there in late 2003. http://www.detroitbuildingtrad es.org/newspapr/dec262003.html #anchor113968 Trades fix fabulous Fox's fascia By Marty Mulcahy Editor The interior of Detroit's Fox Theatre was magnificently renovated in the late 1980s. Now, it's the exterior's turn to shine. BAC Local 1 masons and support crafts from restoration contractor Grunwell-Cashero are in the process of repairing or replacing tons of the Fox Theatre's terra cotta in what is the largest and most significant exterior restoration in the 75-year-old building's history. "They say the Fox Theatre is one of the most photographed buildings in the Midwest," said Grunwell-Cashero co-owner Scott Cashero. "And it is a beautiful building. We're restoring it and cleaning it to make sure that it looks beautiful for another 80 years." Terra cotta is a hard, fired-clay building material used in ornamental architecture. Over the years at the Fox, joints have failed, water has made incursions, and rust has affected supporting steel, causing some of the building's terra cotta panels to become loose from their moorings, necessitating the restoration work. The job will also entail cleaning the building's exterior and re-glazing its windows. Last week, about 10 building trades workers were on the project, mainly setting the job up with tarps for cover from the winter. The most extensive part of the terra cotta renovation involves replacement of panels on the parapet wall's roofline, and above the second story. "When we're done in the fall, the most important thing that we will do is make this building look like we were never here," said Grunwell-Cashero foreman Ed Raymond of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers Local 1. The 5,000-seat, 10-story Fox Theatre is the nation's largest surviving movie palace of the 1920s, and among the most opulent. Built by 20th Century Fox owner William Fox and designed by famed Detroit architect C. Howard Crane, the facility's opening event took place on Sept. 21, 1928 with the showing of Street Angel, a silent film. Over the years, in addition to hosting major motion pictures, the Fox hosted singers like Frank Sinatra and Sammie Davis Jr., stage shows like the "Motown Review" with Diana Ross in the 1960s, Broadway productions like "Cats," and in recent years, the Radio City Christmas Spectacular. The Fox was fortunate because it never closed - and never suffered the fate of other historic Detroit theatres that had leaky roofs or were destroyed by vandals. The interior of the theatre, ornamented wall-to-wall with spectacular Asian elements featuring lions and elephants, had become run-down down by the 1960s, but was resurrected by a 2 ½-year restoration project that began in 1987. Fox owners Mike and Marian Illitch made the $12 million investment, and union trades performed the work at the time. The Fox has been given the designation as a state and national historic landmark. The state landmark notes that the theatre "is the largest and most exotic eclectic Hindu-Siamese-Byzantine theater of the golden age of the movie palace (1925-1930). The Fox stands today, along with its 1929 twin, the St. Louis Fox Theatre, as one of the relatively few remaining movie palaces in the country. It epitomizes the opulence and grandeur that characterized the era." With the historic landmark designation, architects from the Fox, together with the craftsmen from Grunwell-Cashero, are required to take pains to make sure as much as possible of the loose and damaged original terra cotta is repaired and re-set on the building. That which must be replaced is being manufactured by a company in New York state. "Terra cotta isn't used as much as it used to be, but it's a great material to work with," Cashero said. "Architects love it because they can use it in different colors and mould it into whatever shape they want. The Fox is very ornate, and it's great to be on a project that's helping to preserve the exterior. It's almost an art form to repair and replace terra cotta, but we have absolutely the best and most skilled guys in the area on this job to do the work." As recently as the 1970s and 80s, the Fox Theatre was reduced to showing (bad) Kung Fu movies - but now the theatre building has come full circle, and it is the No. 1 box office theatre venue in the nation. The skills of the building trades, both in the 1920s, 1980s, and today, have helped make the building what it is today. "The Detroit Fox is the most spectacular, over-the-top movie palace ever built," said Ray Shepardson, a theater preservationist who oversaw the Fox's renovation, told the Detroit News. "It goes way beyond gaudy in its magnificence." | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 128 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Ray oversaw the 1987-1988 renovation/clean-up | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 543 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 65.185.132.134 |
as in Ray Shepardson. The theatre really didn't need an architect for the restoration/big bath-- just the additional bars and booths up on the suite level. (Message edited by 56packman on August 22, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4208 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Thanks, everyone. 56packman, can you shoot me over another email? For some reason, I don't have your email, anymore. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1874 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.79 |
"The theatre really didn't need an architect for the restoration/big bath-- just the additional bars and booths up on the suite level." I hope that was a jab at architects 56packman! The restoration work done definately needs an architect. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 132 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Not in 1988, the building was structurally sound and it was cleaned up. Thats why I refered to it as a renovation/clean-up. Electricians? Sure Interior Designers? Yes Painters, plumbers and plaster artisans? absolutely. Architect? What would one do? Nothing was changed structurally. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1878 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
That's exactly why an architect would be needed, to ensure nothing was structurally changed. Historic restoration as well as new construction all require an architect. The 1988 renovation was a hell of a lot more than a "clean up"! That place was falling apart. There were garbage cans all over the place to collect dripping water, hunks of plaster all over the place that had fallen on the floor, etc. You don't just send some workers in there to do their thing. You need an architect to ensure the restoration work is done correctly, historically accurate colors used, etc. What kind of planner are you Detroitplanner if you think the Fox was restored without an architect? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1010 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 146.9.52.35 |
Detplanner obviously has no clue what an architect does. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1689 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I always thought structural engineers handled the structural stuff, not architects. Then again, I could be mistaken. Which would really cause me to rethink where my career as an engineer is headed.... Architects are involved in just about every kind of renovation, restoration, or reconstruction project. The interior designers typically work at the architecture firm, and in addition to the tasks that others have mentioned above, the architect heads up the design team, coordinating all the other disciplines. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 929 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.212.215.140 |
architect are required to have an understanding of structures; it's one of the main sections on the licensing exam. architects usually can design smaller structures (steel, wood, and concrete) but generally contract larger projects out to sturctural engineers, primarily due to time constraints. and, honestly, it's not that much fun for architects. there is a knowledge base for it tho. architects are educated in any aspect of the construction or renovation of a building. this includes, but is not limited to: overall design, interior design, project management, construction management, hvac loading calculations, site planning, etc. depending on the school, most architects also learn aspects of urban planning, graphics, computer animation, 3d modelling, webpage design, and others... -rsa [RockStArchitect] | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1731 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.120 |
Forgive my ignorance but exactly what do these term mean; restoration..renovation... Here in AA the Mich theater has been redone but_ for example a replica of the original marquee was installed in place of the one that had been up since probably circa 1963_ is that a restoration? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1690 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
For as much structural knowledge as (some) architects may have, though, they are not licensed Professional Engineers, and thus are not legally qualified to sign and seal structural design documents. The laws vary by state as to the minimum threshold of complexity requiring the services of a structural engineer. I find it a bit offensive to imply that architects can perform the duties of a structural engineer, but choose not to do so strictly due to the lack of time (I imagine the structures portion of the AIA licensing process is not quite the level of the Structural PE exam.). RSA, you and I both know that's not the case. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 930 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.212.215.140 |
i don't know the specific cut off, in regards to size or complexity, but in michigan an architects seal can suffice for certain structures. while it's not the same as a structural engineering degree, the structures classes that we had to take were very thorough in regards to steel, wood, and concrete contruction and calculations. i'm sure that there is some sort of cut-off where an architect's seal does not suffice, but there is quite a bit of knowledge in structures that comes with the field of architecture (including loading and calculations). perhaps i should've been more specific... cl; the differenece between restoration and renovation is: restoration means returning the building to it's original specifications. usually cleaning and/or replacing the original elements of a building. renovation usually consists of modifying an original building to something different (even minor alterations) than original specifications. example: the fox theatre was restored while the fisher theatre was renovated. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 547 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
The new AA Michigan theatre marquee replaced the 1956 triangular "large panel" marquee. It is an approximation of the original, and looks fantastic. I would qualify that as a restoration, or adaptive restoration of original features. One thing I forgot re: the Fox is that the auditorium roof was redesigned to have a different slope for the portion between the highest point and the parapet walls, and that definitely involved the services of an architect, or engineer. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1691 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
"Restoration" also implies a certain point of time in the life of a structure. There must be consistency with regard to the details, so as not to restore a single building to two different time periods in its life. Then, of course, there is "rehabilitation" and "reconstruction". | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 133 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Crew: Okay if I have no idea what an architect does, can someone explain to me in detail what exactly they needed an architect for to clean up a lobby and upgrade the electrical system? Granted LCE has a staff architect who probably worked on the ADA accessible bathrooms, an architect was also needed when LCE moved the HQ downtown a few years later for the offices. You see I worked at the Fox from 1988 to 1997 (mostly in an as needed basis). I also worked at the fox as a volunteer for Forbes for concerts back when he owned the place. There were no significant architectural changes or modification done to the building other than electical and beverage systems, or the recovering of seats, laying down of new carpets. In addition, I do have a degree in architecture but I do not work as one as granted it is only an associates degree, but I do have archhitectural training. Do architects make bars that fit between pillars in the lobby? Would they be needed for turning the regular seating on the Loge level into seating areas in the private boxes? The building was not changed significantly, so the Secretary of Interiors Guideline for Historic Preservation were not comprimised, so why on earth would you need an architect? -- edit note: I can remember a friend of mine bringing me to the theatre to unload a bunch of plastic from his dad's van so that we can haul it to the roof. This substantiates 56's note on the roof problem needing an architect (which would be a structural improvement). Crew, please consider showing some tact before you unload on someone trying to answer a simple question about a project that happened 20 years ago. What I said does not mean I don't know anything. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on August 23, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4221 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
All of this talk (if even interesting), but still no answer. I guess it's a mystery to everyone. | ||
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect Post Number: 240 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.243.32.9 |
William Kessler and Associates was the architect of record for work on the Restoration/Remodeling of the FOX theater and office building. Ed Francis was partner in charge. Ed is a highly respected and awarded preservation architect. The Kessler firm ended with the death of Bill Kessler an architect of stature equal with the famous and beloved architects of the cities zenith. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 134 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
sorry L, here is Ray's website: http://www.rayshepardson.com/ Raay's site has pics and a desription of all of his theaters. The next link will give info on the outside work. http://www.detroitbuildingtrad es.org/newspapr/dec262003.html #anchor113968 This explains the offices as best as I can find, still incomplete, I suggest you call LCE for the full scoop. "The Fox Theater is a great example of the recycling of a beautiful building although it never fell into serious disrepair. The Ilitch family purchased the building and refurbished it extensively in 1997 and 1998." http://detroit1701.org/Fox.htm | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1012 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 146.9.52.31 |
Hit a nerve. did I? I still think you often have no clue. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1885 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
Enough said. Seeing how architects need a minimum of a Master's degree to be a certified architect you've shown why you don't currently work as an architect or in the architecture field. Now I know why the American Planning Association is working to make it a requirement that anyone using the term "planner" in regards to urban/city planning have AICP. I'm with Crew here. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 142 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
I do have an AICP I don't even know why I even bother with you trolls. | ||
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect Post Number: 242 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.243.32.9 |
These kind of interdisciplinary pissing contests are counter productive. Knowing how hard it is to become either an architect or planner and also knowing how hard it is to make a decent living at it, my hat is off to anyone who does, or is either. One thing about planners that I have often wondered about is the level of frustration they might feel over not accomplishing their goals on a project. Architects can get very frustrated with the inablity for projects to happen as intended. With planners it must just be excruciating, do to the increased time projects take, and the increasingly political complexity of their task. | ||
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect Post Number: 243 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.243.32.9 |
And by the way, I can vouch for the value of associate degrees in Architecture. Having worked with and taught both associate grads and professional degree grads. The ones with associate degrees have much better basic skills, and can fit into an office and be productive much quicker than the ones on a professional track. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 144 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Actually I love my job, I've been invovled with all sorts of interesting issues and have seen the fruits of my labor actually constructed or programs enacted in a way that I know I have made a positive difference in the lives of the poor. With my position, it is not really the question of never seeing things get done, but making sure that they stay in the scope of the politicans and we can demonstrate the benefits. The capital is not really a problem for my work, its getting the capital together in creative ways that make is challenging and rewarding. I do agree that I overly reacted, but to be told I'm an idiot by someone who has no idea who I am is really disrespectful. I am not going to be someone's doormat. I apologize to all who may think badly of me for my behaviour, but I think I was provoked, and I am not going to take that as a professional. | ||
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect Post Number: 244 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.243.32.9 |
Detroitplanner That is good to hear that you like your job. I think you have a very important one. And for an architect who has been busting my head againist the wall in this town since the mid seventies it is great to finally see some actual progress in the city. Wish I could work on more projects. There needs to be a great deal more, so hopefully that is some job security for you. It is also really great to see "lay" people interested in the city. Its old buildings, its history, and its future. That is really what has to happen to turn things around. It is the people and their will, not the "design professionals" who make these things happen. Once everyone decides they want a better place, believe me, there will be an architect, and/or urban planner there to make it happen for us. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1894 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.79 |
Detroitplanner, I didn't mean to personally insult you. I just question your planning skills if you didn't think the Fox needed an architect for restoration. | ||
Fho Member Username: Fho Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.85.149.176 |
Somewhat off topic, but I'm an arch grad in desperate search of a job - for 5 years now. Are any of you hiring? I'll be happy to call you any title you like - even sire.  |
