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Rossco
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Username: Rossco

Post Number: 20
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 69.210.30.48
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Several new vehicles on the market are E85 compatible. I'm in the market for a new vehicle, but am not sure if this is the future or a fad. What is the latest consensus on E85 as a viable, long-term alternative energy source?
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2062
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does it really matter. E85 vehicles run fine on regular Gasoline. E85 vehicles don't cost any more than regular vehicles. E85 is more expensive than Regular gasoline and your car will get fewer miles per gallon when it runs E85. There are only 4 or 5 E85 Gas stations in the entire Metro area. Your car will be extinct before a majority of Gas stations sell E85.

Buy the vehicle that suits your lifestyle. If it happens to take e85 all the better. If you're that worried about pollution/fuel prices, buy a smaller vehicle and choose a smaller engine. You'll get a much better benefit than worring if the vehicle uses E85.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 236
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.65.11.152
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone thinks it work....

______________________________ ___________________
AP Michigan News
Plans for 2 new Michigan ethanol plants unveiled

August 8, 2006

ASSOCIATED PRESS
SOUTHFIELD, Mich. (AP) -- NextGen Energy LLC on Tuesday announced plans to build two ethanol plants in Michigan.

One plant will be in Watervliet in Berrien County and the other will be in McBain in Missaukee County. Southfield-based NextGen Energy said it has received preliminary site plan approval for both plants and is obtaining permits for both.

Each plant will employ 40 people and will produce 50 million gallons of ethanol annually, NextGen Energy said in a statement.

Ethanol commonly is made from corn and soybeans. About 4 million vehicles now on the road can run on gasoline or E85, a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. Supporters of E85 say it can reduce oil imports, cut emissions and help farmers.

"These plants are a win-win for Michigan and for the communities in which they will be built," Todd A. Wyett, CEO of NextGen Energy, said in a statement. "They will help our economy, create new jobs, positively impact the environment, lower fuel costs and reduce our reliance on external sources for energy."


Michigan has existing ethanol plants in Caro and Albion, and at least two others besides those announced by NextGen Energy are planned, according to the Renewable Fuels Association.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006608080445
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2063
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The technology definitely works. Unfortunately for todays consumers it is irrelevant. Without pumps to pump it, the extra cost and reduced mileage why would a consumer buy it? If you really want to help the enviroment, buy a smaller vehicle than you had originally intended. It will help the planet and save them money.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 201
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone thinks ethanol works only because they are getting a Federal subsidy of 51 cents per gallon to make it.

Various studies show that the amount of energy it takes to make a gallon of ethanol is somewhere between 80% and 120% of the energy contained in that gallon of ethanol, depending on who made the study. Add in the fact that a gallon of ethanol contains only two-thirds the energy of gasoline and it is clear that ethanol doesn't save anything.

Can you spell "government boondoggle"?
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2064
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The brazilians seem to be able to produce ethanol and get a net gain in energy. Much of their fuel consumption is now e85.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 202
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Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is about eight times more efficient to refine ethanol from sugar cane than from corn. The US has only four states where the climate is right for growing sugar cane, whereas all of Brazil has the right climate. Finally, Brazil can become entirely reliant on E85 only because it uses 12% of the transportation energy that the USA does.
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Detroitej72
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Username: Detroitej72

Post Number: 74
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 66.184.3.44
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote: E85 is more expensive than Regular gasoline and your car will get fewer miles per gallon when it runs E85. There are only 4 or 5 E85 Gas stations in the entire
------------------------------ -------------------

Not sure about the miles comment but the Sunoco on West 8 Mile in Detroit has E85 for 10 cents cheaper than 87 octaine.

Unfortunately there are only a few stations that carry it in the whole metro area.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2065
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/ faqs/energy.php


quote:

Current research prepared by Argonne National Laboratory (a U.S. Department of Energy Laboratory), indicates a 38% gain in the overall energy input/output equation for the corn-to-ethanol process. That is, if 100 BTUs of energy is used to plant corn, harvest the crop, transport it, etc., 138 BTUs of energy is available in the fuel ethanol. Corn yields and processing technologies have improved significantly over the past 20 years and they continue to do so, making ethanol production less and less energy intensive.


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Aarne_frobom
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Username: Aarne_frobom

Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 162.108.2.222
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like Mikeg knows more than most about fuel ethanol. All this information is correct, except that most sources say the stuff does a little better than two thirds the energy density of gasoline - maybe 75 or 80 per cent. The $0.51/gallon number is known to but a few, and most of the media hype about E-85 never mentions it.

Just to add a bit of Detroit relevance, you don't necessarily want to fill your tank with ethanol on one of the ozone-alert days in southeast Michigan, due to its high vapor pressure relative to gasoline. There is talk of building a cellulosic-ethanol plant in Detroit; more power to `em if it works, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1251
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 69.129.146.186
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sugar cane and corn are not the only sources for ethanol - virtually any biomass can be used
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Detroitej72
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Username: Detroitej72

Post Number: 76
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 66.184.3.44
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes but it is very costly to use many of the other biomass. Also I read that many ethanol processing plants waste as much if not more energy to make than they produce. Can't remember the source, but if I find it, I will post it.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a 1995 USDA study on the differing estimates of the net energy balance of corn ethanol. Ethanol refining processes have gotten a little more efficient since then, but it is interesting to note that the studies all allocate some of the refinery energy inputs to the by-products that are then used for cattle feed. Will all of these new ethanol refineries that are coming on-line be able to sell these by-products? If not, ethanol's net energy balance gets pushed farther towards negative territory!

So let's assume that the cattle ranchers will buy up every last ton of by-products from all of the corn ethanol refineries and that all of the US corn production is diverted to making ethanol. From an article in the Washington Post:
[if refined into ethanol] "...the entire U.S. corn crop would supply only 3.7 percent of our auto and truck transport demands. Using the entire 300 million acres of U.S. cropland for corn-based ethanol production would meet about 15 percent of the demand."
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1234
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

E10 took a big hit on my fuel economy. I got 49-53 mpg with a Honda CRX HF with E0 but only 42-44 with Sunoco's E10, with the same manner of driving over three tankfuls of E10. I was surprised that the MPG hit was so high. I wouldn't buy it if it were 40-50 cents cheaper at today's prices.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10470
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

E85 vehicles don't cost any more than regular vehicles. E85 is more expensive than Regular gasoline and your car will get fewer miles per gallon when it runs E85.




Actually, E85 is cheaper (per gallon) than regular gasoline.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3166
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.255.162.205
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

There Is No Ethanol Revolution in Brazil

by Andre Kenji de Sousa

Most ethanol apologists like to use the example of Brazil. Unfortunately, I live in Brazil and I see no ethanol revolution here. In fact, the heavily subsidized ethanol program (Pro-Alcool) used to be an ecological and social disaster. From 1975 to 1989, the Brazilian government spent nine billion dollars in subsidies for ethanol production (and that's not counting special loans, that were never paid, from state-owned banks): Nine billion dollars in a country like Brazil (where one can buy a can of soda for less than fifty cents of a dollar) is a pornographic amount of money.

Large areas of land were wasted for monoculture (some people complain one of the most fertile lands of the country, in the Ribeirão Preto region, is being degraded by sugar cane monoculture), semi-slave (and child) labor were heavily used. Nasty environmental problems were only surpassed in the 1990's, like the pollution of rivers by vinhoto (produced in ethanol refining) and crop burning (until the mechanization of the crops, that technique were used to cut sugarcane). C'mon, greens and progressives: that's not such a good thing to defend.

I don't remember anyone that owned an ethanol-fueled car besides my father. And he used to complain a lot about it. He complained that he had difficulties to ignite the car in cold days (and a cold day in Brazil is warmer than a summer day in most cities of the United States). Only when there were created flexible-fuel vehicles (allowing people to run cars both on gasoline and ethanol) that the Brazilian consumer began to see ethanol as a compelling alternative. In 1997, only 1,117 cars running on ethanol were produced in the whole country, in 2000 almost zero! No one wants to rely only on ethanol.

The so-called "Brazilian energy independence" should be explained. Brazilian hydrography allows the construction of heavy dams, so the country doesn't have to burn coal or fuel to produce most of its electricity (but, some years ago, the country faced a heavy electricity shortage. And no one guarantees that we are free from that). Brazil has also good reserves of oil. The oil and gasoline production in the country is monopolized by Petrobras, the local version of Pemex and PDVSA, the state-owned company that is hated by Brazilian conservatives and free-market proponents. It's because of a federal law that Brazilian gasoline has 20 to 25% of ethanol. And gasoline in Brazil is very expensive (neighboring Argentina has a more affordable gasoline price – some Brazilian car owners even drives twenty miles to fuel there!), especially considering that there are no heavy taxes to maintain highways (like most Europeans countries do). And natural gas also does a good job (especially because we don't need natural gas for home heating).

Even if ethanol were really successful in Brazil, that's not the best example. First, Brazilian consumption of energy is far smaller than in the US. Few Brazilians uses air conditioning (and most of them use that only in some rooms of their homes), even fewer use home heating (and that's among the middle and higher class). Some tourist guides even recommend Brazilians to take care to take blouses due to air conditioning in Florida. Brazilians also have a smaller dependence on cars: most poor people don't drive, and even rich people don't use it in the way that Americans are accustomed to (no one drives everyday fifty miles to work). Second, conditions are much more favorable for agriculture in Brazil than in the United States (as orange producers in Florida are tired to know). The minimum wage of Brazil is something like one hundred dollars (and most farmers do not pay that to their workers), there are not such cold winters like most of the US has, the soil is more fertile, there is more land available. And the American ethanol program is even worse than the Brazilian one, since corn ethanol is far more ineffective than the sugar cane one.

Earlier this year, Brazil faced a heavy problem: since there were rising sugar prices in the international market, most producers decided to produce sugar instead of ethanol. Without federal government intervention, we could have faced shortage of the product. Most of the ethanol apologists like Mark Steyn and Thomas Friedman like to point out the solution to simply import ethanol from Brazil, but if the Americans begin to do that, then ethanol would have unaffordable prices compared to gasoline. Or, sure, I would find no sugar to put in my coffee. Maybe that could be the perfect solution for all these people complaining about obesity, eh?

Some Brazilians tends to mix in national pride when they talk about ethanol. It's the same thing than trying to discuss the rationale of American military interventions with an American. It's easier to discuss soccer with Brazilians than to discuss ethanol. An interesting and cheap solution that I see in Brazil is natural gas, not ethanol, to fuel cars. But we don't have to spend natural gas in home heating.

Ethanol apologists shouldn't be talking about "Brazilian ethanol success" because there is no such success. And learn that these kinds of decisions should be made by the market, no by the government.

August 9, 2006

http://www.lewrockwell.com/ori g7/desousa1.html


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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3167
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.255.162.205
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Ethanol Eco-Disaster
by Bill Walker

(Fade in) The delicate, fainting environment is in distress; it can’t pay its fuel bill. Heroic Merry Men of the IRS carrying MP5s and wearing green tights hold up the sneering, selfish, unworthy middle class. They give the looted bank accounts to the noble corn-ethanol producers. The chairman of Archer Daniels Midland rides off into the beautiful sunset on his yacht, waving his stock options. (The Happy Ending)

The Math-based Version

Let’s take the very rosiest assumptions for corn ethanol, from the paid PR flacks who lobby for the subsidy. They claim that it takes 35,000 BTUs of energy to make 77,000 BTUs of ethanol from corn. No one else gets a ratio anywhere near that good; some calculations show that corn ethanol actually costs energy to make (and fuel ethanol only has 76,100 BTU per gallon according to the EPA). But even this most unrealistic case assumes that about half the energy in a gallon of subsidized ethanol has to come from somewhere else. For comparison, it takes around 22,000 BTU to make a gallon of gasoline. Gasoline contains about 114,000 BTU per gallon, so there’s a clear energy profit.

Looking at market price instead of BTUs, on June 6 wholesale cost for ethanol was around $2.67 per gallon, vs. 2.09 for gasoline. This isn’t counting the cost of the subsidies; even cheating, corn ethanol still isn’t as good as gasoline. And mixing the ethanol in to make gasohol adds further refining costs.

So, the ethanol programs force us to pay more per gallon for a diluting fuel additive that gives only 2/3 the miles per gallon. This means more gas station stops, more wasted time and gas. And the ecological effect of each fuel?

Oil-based gasoline comes from very small drill holes in deserts, tundra, and sea bottoms. US ethanol is made from corn, grown in large dusty monoculture fields that must be covered with pesticides and herbicides. Ethanol programs subsidize soil destruction, deforestation, habitat destruction, and bunny-killing.

All so-called "biofuels" are a step backward ecologically. The US has reforested; 59% of the northeastern US is now forest. The eastern US has more forested acres now than in the mid-1800s. This reforestation is due to our replacement of biofuels with higher-tech oil, gas, and nuclear power. If we allow the market to improve our technology, eventually we would only use "biofuel" for grilling our salmon.

Not too many people are in favor of cutting down forests, polluting streams, and exterminating wildlife for money-losing programs that make us all worse off. So why has welfare for corporate moonshiners lasted since 1980? Some say that it is because these programs transfer billions to a few powerful people, while inflicting only a few hundred or perhaps a thousand dollars in damage on each American. Thus the concentrated interest has incentive for rent-seeking campaign contributions, while the burden on the average worker is lost among all the other taxes and government-sponsored cartel and monopoly exactions.

But there is also another ecological factor here: infosphere pollution. Those who benefit from multi-billion-dollar subsidies will spend tens of millions to spew polluting memes into the media. Thus, false science and economic fallacies fill up our hard drives and our minds, outcompeting the unsubsidized species.

According to the Environmental Working Group (a generally pro-ethanol group), corn subsidies alone were at least 41.9 billion from 1995–2004. The EWG points out that US politicians (including Hillary) have only supported expensive subsidized ethanol; overseas ethanol from more-efficient sugar cane production is kept out by tariffs. (So don’t write me that someone in Brazil has a great ethanol production company. I’m sure they do, but you can’t buy from them!)

Of course corn isn’t the only thing subsidized. From the evil-stained pages of the Fedronomicon, here’s the 2007 Department of Agriculture budget. Note that under the rigid fiscal restraint of the Republican "Contract With America," the budgetary authority for this one agency in FY 2007 is $96.4 billion. Those interests trying to capture this money will spend a lot to misinform the public.

Can we overcome infosphere pollution? Or are we doomed to pay for the destruction of our own environment, because the majority of media is produced specifically to confuse us into supporting parasitic special interests? Find out in the next exciting episode!

July 24, 2006

http://www.lewrockwell.com/wal ker/walker23.html


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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 204
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Actually, E85 is cheaper (per gallon) than regular gasoline.




Actually, E85 is a lot more expensive than regular gasoline. Last month, the Detroit News reported that on July 18th, E85 was selling for $3.59 a gallon in Brighton, alongside pumps that were selling unleaded gasoline foe $2.99 a gallon.

Considering that there is a 51 cents per gallon Federal subsidy given to ethanol producers, the real cost of the E85 being sold that day was $4.02 per gallon.

The Detroit News article also mentions that the Warren Meijer gas station would be selling their E85 for $2.87 per gallon. However, the article also stated that "Arrangements with suppliers will allow Meijer to competitively price the E85, GM spokeswoman Mary Beth Stanek said."

Translation: GM is giving Meijer's E85 suppliers a subsidy of about $0.72 cents for each gallon of E85.

Where did you get the facts to support your statement?
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 917
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Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mikeg: if the subsidy is 51 cents per gallon of ethanol, and e85 is 15% ethanol - the ethanol subsidy of e85 is 7.65 cents per gallon, bringing the unadjusted market price of e85 to just under $3.67 per gallon - not $4.02.
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Thecarl
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Post Number: 918
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Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Published July 27, 2006
[ From the Lansing State Journal ]

'Green' ethanol makes return to Lansing area
Shell station in Delta Twp. primes new pump

By Jeremy W. Steele
and Barbara Wieland

Flex-fuel vehicles are designed to run on regular gasoline, but also can be powered by a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, a mixture known as E85.

"The state of Michigan is pushing E85, but nobody has had the product available locally," said Russ Blodgett, president of Blodgett Oil.

Despite the scarcity of E85 locally, area car dealers are selling more cars and trucks that run on the ethanol blend.

Through the 2006 model year, there were about 50 vehicle models that were E85 compatible and General Motors Corp. has said it plans to make more than 400,000 flex-fuel vehicles annually.

Bill Cross, a salesman at Bud Kouts Chevrolet in Lansing, estimates 40 percent of the cars on his lot are E85 compatible. He said he gets questions from buyers every day about E85 - a big change from past years.

"We've had a lot of the E85 vehicles for the past four years and not many people were asking for them," Cross said.

More area gas stations with E85 pumps could help change that. Only 16 stations in the state carry the fuel, according to the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition.

Meijer Inc. has said it plans to put in an E85 pump at one of its area gas stations, but it hasn't said which location.

The ethanol in E85 is made from corn or other grains. There's currently a limited supply of E85, but more ethanol refineries are being built, including one near Lake Odessa.

E85 often costs more than normal gasoline, Blodgett said, and a tank of E85 won't carry you as far as a tank of regular gasoline.

But on Wednesday afternoon, E85 was selling for $2.99 a gallon at Blodgett's Shell station, compared with $3.13 for regular unleaded.

Ethanol may offer other advantages, though. Because it is a higher octane product, it may improve vehicle performance. And it's easier on the environment, releasing fewer pollutants and carbon dioxide than pure gasoline.

"It also supports our farmers and is a renewable energy resource," Blodgett said.

Corn prices generally increase 5 cents to 15 cents a bushel within a 60-mile radius of ethanol plants, said Jody Pollok, executive director of the DeWitt-based Corn Marketing Program of Michigan. "That's certainly going to give producers a reason to grow more corn," she said.

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060727/NEWS0 3/607270382/1221/lansing
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 246
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Posted From: 68.79.88.162
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This debate is a little bit off track.

Flex-fuel vehicles *can* run on E85 but don't have to. They get less mileage out of a gallon of E85 than E10. You can make just about any current car run on E85 with stainless fuel lines, a metal fuel tank, and some retuning. Flex fuel vehicles are a hedge against gas rising than the cost of agriculture. Or maybe against that strange day when you can find an E85 station but not gas.

True E85 vehicles can't run on E10 at all. They get higher power and efficiency out of ethanol than regular cars get from gas (E85's octane equivalent is something like 110). These aren't out yet in the States, although companies like Saab already sell them abroad.

If people are going to complain about subsidies, consider that the U.S. consumes 146 billion gallons of gas a year (400 million gallons a day). The war in Iraq (right or wrong) - one of many expenditures to keep the Middle East stable and at one level protect the price of gasoline - costs about $100 billion a year. That's about 63 cents a gallon. I would say it's better to spend the money here.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 205
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Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thecarl wrote:

quote:

mikeg: if the subsidy is 51 cents per gallon of ethanol, and e85 is 15% ethanol - the ethanol subsidy of e85 is 7.65 cents per gallon...




ummmm, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the "E" stands for "Ethanol" and the "85" stands for its percentage in the finished fuel mixture.

Next time, try checking your facts before you correct someone?

Oh, and you really ought to try reading something all the way through before you cut, paste and post it - you could have learned the definition of E85 the easy way.
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Detroitej72
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Username: Detroitej72

Post Number: 80
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 66.184.3.44
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikeg wrote:
Actually, E85 is a lot more expensive than regular gasoline. Last month, the Detroit News reported that on July 18th, E85 was selling for $3.59 a gallon in Brighton, alongside pumps that were selling unleaded gasoline foe $2.99 a gallon.

______________________________ ___________________

Like I stated earlier the Sunoco on West 8 Mile in Detroit is selling E85 at 10 cents cheaper then 87 octaine unleaded.

Don't know if their being subsidised or not but the priece is a fact, just drive by.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 919
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Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mikeg, i'll happily be a person that occasionally makes mistakes. i wouldn't want to be a person that NEVER makes them.

ironic that you are so combative when the discussion involves corn cobs.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 206
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Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Like I stated earlier the Sunoco on West 8 Mile in Detroit is selling E85 at 10 cents cheaper then 87 octaine unleaded.




Now that there is some competition in the form of additional E85 retailers in the Detroit area, is sounds like it is being priced a little more competitively. However, if you take away the 51 cents per gallon Federal ethanol subsidy, that E85 on West 8 Mile would be selling for 33 cents more per gallon than their regular unleaded.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 207
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new," - Albert Einstein

"When you make a mistake, admit it. If you don't, you only make matters worse." - Ward Cleaver

"Man is by nature competitive, combative, ambitious, jealous, envious, and vengeful." - Sir Arthur Keith

"Corn kernels are used to make corn ethanol; corn cobs are used to make biomass ethanol." - Mikeg
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1254
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Posted From: 69.130.18.100
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure that Federal subsidy will disappear as soon as ethanol production reaches volume. It's entirely possibly ethanol production could also make some farm subsidies unnecessary, not to mention hideously expensive war actions for oil.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1237
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Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'm sure that Federal subsidy will disappear as soon as ethanol production reaches volume."


I strongly doubt if the subsidy will ever disappear. Taxes rarely go away! ADM will see to that. Just why do you think that there is a 54 cent/gal tariff on Brazilian ethanol in the first place? Brazil could easily supply whatever the US needs with sugar-based ethanol.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

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Posted From: 69.130.18.100
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Just why do you think that there is a 54 cent/gal tariff on Brazilian ethanol in the first place? Brazil could easily supply whatever the US needs with sugar-based ethanol."

why? because of the same oil industry pigs who aren't distributing American ethanol either
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 702
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rossco,

NDavies is spot on about how you should make this decision.

Flex-fuel vehicles will run on regular gasoline and E-85, so you don't have to worry about buying a car that will only run on E-85. Due to the flex-fuel ablities of E-85 cars, you don't need to worry about the long-term feasibily of E-85. If gas prices continue to skyrocket, E-85 will be a good alternative. If gas prices drop, you can still fill up with regular gas.

As Ndavies pointed out, the best solutions to cutting the expense and pollution from your vehicle will come from the purchace of a more efficient vehicle. and/or cutting your amount of driving.

I mostly agree with Ndavies advice on this thread, but I feel the need to clarify one of his statements-

quote:

There are only 4 or 5 E85 Gas stations in the entire Metro area. Your car will be extinct before a majority of Gas stations sell E85.



It is true that there are only a handful of local gas stations currently selling E-85 today, and the probability of a MAJORITY of gas stations selling E-85 in the near future is unlikely. This statement is technically correct, but it is somewhat misleading.

Due to the recent spike in gas prices, Lansing has started pushing the construction of new ethanol plants and ethanol pumps at local gas stations.

I doubt we will see E-85 sold at the MAJORITY of local gas stations in the near future, but the amount of local gas stations selling E-85 will dramatically increase over the next few years.
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Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 208
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In attempt to permanently dispel the persistant notion on this thread that E85 is less expensive than regular gasoline, I've run the numbers for you.

The per gallon pump prices given in Thecarl's Lansing State Journal article state that E85 was selling for $2.99/gal. while regular gas was going for $3.13/gal.

Ethanol has about 2/3rds the energy content of gasoline, which means that you need to buy and burn more of it to go the same distance as you would using gasoline. Since E85 is 85% ethanol, that means about 1.425 gallons of E85 contain the same amount of energy as one gallon of gasoline.

Let's assume that your vehicle averages 20 miles per gallon using regular unleaded gasoline. To travel 100 miles, it would therefore burn 5 gallons, which at $3.13 per gallon would cost you $15.65.

Traveling that same 100 miles using a tank filled with E85 would cause you to burn 7.125 gallons of E85, which at $2.99 per gallon would cost you $21.30. Therefore, even though it was 14 cents per gallon cheaper at the pump, it costs you 36% more to use E85 instead of regular unleaded gas.

Take away the Federal subsidy of 51 cents per gallon of ethanol (43 cents per gallon of E85) and the true cost to travel those 100 miles jumps to $24.36. This cost is 55% higher than the cost of using regular unleaded gasoline.
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Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1256
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 69.130.18.100
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

not gonna work Mikeg. It just isn't that easy. There's more involved in pushing a switch to ethanol or other alternative fuels than current street price and people know it.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3168
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.17
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"not gonna work Mikeg. It just isn't that easy."

What's not gonna work? Trying to tell people the truth about ethanol, that it's not this panacea that everybody seems to think it is?

Ethanol would be the worst thing for us. Corn is one of the worst crops to go, because it depletes the soil of nutrients like nothing else. The growers won't have any incentive to rotate crops, they'll just pour on more fertilizers and pesticides, both of which get into ground water. Fertilizers are themselves made using petroleum, too.

Corn is also land-intensive to grow, relative to other crops, which will lead to deforestation to grow enough corn to make up for the lower energy output.

If we want lower gas prices, we need to stop using so fucking much. I know it's not as sexy as blaming the oil companies for "price gouging," but it's a hell of a lot more productive and you don't need a new government program to do it, either.
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Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 210
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The capital investment being sunk into ethanol refineries could be put to better use by spending it on improvements to extisting petroleum refineries to increase their efficiency (to get more gallons of gasoline out of each precious barrel of crude oil). And if we really want to continue having customized reformulated gasolines for specific metropolitan areas (to minimize smog), it would also help if the oil industry were allowed to build one or two new (and efficient) petroleum refineries in this country. It's only been about thirty years since the last all-new petroleum refinery was built in this country.
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Magic_mushroom
Member
Username: Magic_mushroom

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.220.197.208
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

E85 is crap. We were required to use it in all vehicles at work. We averaged about 3-6 miles less a gallon with E85. We calculated that E85 would have to be around 40 to 50 cents cheaper per gallon in order to get the same fuel economy as regular gas.
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Rossco
Member
Username: Rossco

Post Number: 22
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.25
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just checked E85 price here in Lansing -- regular is approximately 8 cents per gallon cheaper than E85. I'll be looking for an economical (possibly flex fuel) vehicle to transport my family.
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Andylinn
Member
Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 190
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.141.144.2
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

as gas prices climb past $3 and $4 it will make more and more sense to have e85, which will be slower to grow in price.

(Message edited by andylinn on August 14, 2006)
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Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 212
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andylinn-

keep in mind that

a) it takes about 1.4 gallons of E85 to go the same distance as 1.0 gallon of regular unleaded, regardless of the price you pay per gallon and your vehicle's fuel economy. This is because of the inherent differences in the chemical structure of ethanol and gasoline which effects their energy density.

b) if your vehicle can use either E85 or regular gasoline, it only makes economic sense to purchase E85 when the price of gasoline is greater than 1.4 times the price of E85. Therefore, with regular gasoline currently selling at $3.00 per gallon, you will end up spending less to travel if you purchase E85 only when it is selling for less than $2.15 per gallon. If gas prices climb to $4.00 per gallon, you spend less with E85 when its price is below $2.85 per gallon.

c) fossil fuels are used to fertilize, cultivate, & harvest the agricultural raw materials, as well as to refine and transport the finished ethanol. Natural gas and refined petroleum products account for most of the energy inputs used to make ethanol and the total amount of energy inputs is equal to at least 80% of the energy contained in a finished amount of ethanol. Therefore, as natural gas and petroleum prices rise, expect the price of ethanol to rise at nearly the same rate.
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Rossco
Member
Username: Rossco

Post Number: 24
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.25
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting article "Ethanol could leave the world hungry" by Lester Brown at http://money.cnn.com/magazines /fortune/fortune_archive/2006/ 08/21/8383659/index.htm?cnn=ye s

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